Upstate New York must be the world capital of state routes with letter suffixes. I was up in Poughkeepsie and the surrounding areas yesterday (photos to come on GNYR) and was on NY 17K and NY 9G. There's a whole batch of others up there, NY 17M, NY 9J, NY 9P, etc. These are some pretty exotic suffixes, as compared to back on Long Island where we just have NY 25A, NY 25B, NY 25C (sort of--it's unsigned), and NY 27A. I assume that there must be some history behind where these suffixes came from. Does anyone know anything about them?
Aside of the fact NYSDOT will not use suffixed routes anymore, it is was much more insane at one point, especially due to NY 3 being truncated from WNY.
17: A-M except for I & L (most renumbered)
9: A-X, except for I, O, Q, S, T and U (several decommissioned)
3: A-G, two sets of them for B-G. Three sets for 3A.
31: A-F, most, if not all came to life when 3 was truncated and replaced with 31.
18: A-F, most renumbered at this point.
Those are the main examples, a ton with As and Bs or Ns and Ss.
They used to be NYSDOT's system of "spur routes". A is sometimes used as "alternate". The others are used on a mostly alphabetical basis. I like them, but NYSDOT figured out that spur routes are kinda weird when there's no route numbering system and 899 numbers available.
I wondered if it might be something like that. Do you have a source for this information? I'd love to document it. The earliest list I was able to get from NYSDOT was from 1970, which doesn't go far enough back.
Wikipedia has very good histories of route numbering in NY, including the 1930s renumbering that was the grandfather of the current system. My notes are just general observation. The New York Routes sit on Gribblenation has a lot of the old routes as well.
US 20SY would probably really blow your mind.
Not quite as much as New York, but New Hampshire has 11 A-D and 101E.
And THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
Is this post in binary?
Some of the NY 9-x suffix routes are partly associated with the areas or histories of the area. NY 9D would be "Dutchess" County or "downstate" relative to Albany. NY 9D does stretch into Putnam and Westchester Counties and is a stunning ride between Cold Spring and the Bear Mountain Bridge.
NY 9G would be associated with the settlement of large numbers of German immigrants who first inhabited the area that became the Town of Germantown in Columbia County as early as 1714, if I remember by New York State blue and yellow historical sign correctly, posted at Sharp's Landing.
NY 9H would be a "Hudson" bypass to the "Hudson Valley." NY 9H is a VERY old road, as it was the original Albany-New York Post Road from colonial times.
NY 9J is another very old road, dating from the days when it was called the Farmers' Turnpike in 1802. It is a toughy, but it may have to do with the shape of the letter "J" driving through the old Hudson River stop of Newton Hook or, Nutten Hoek, in the old Dutch colonial days.
NY 9L is associated with eastern side scenic route from Lake George to Glens Falls.
NY 9N is for "North Country" where the Adirondack Mountains predominate and many of the roads sparkle like diamonds in the sunshine, especially on new pavement. NY 28N could mean the same thing being in the North Country.
NY 9P may be associated with its proximity to Saratoga Springs parks, spas and its famous horse-racing track.
NY 9R is so short a route, I cannot imagine any possibilities at this time.
Quote from: xcellntbuy on October 14, 2013, 05:20:11 PM
Some of the NY 9-x suffix routes are partly associated with the areas or histories of the area.
This is snark, right? 9A to 9N were pretty obviously assigned in 1930 in alphabetical order from south to north. (Except 9B - I don't know where that was originally.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_9_in_New_York#Suffixed_routes
NY 9N starts significantly south of the North Country; NY 28N probably just means "north", since it's essentially a northern alignment of NY 28.
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2013, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: xcellntbuy on October 14, 2013, 05:20:11 PM
Some of the NY 9-x suffix routes are partly associated with the areas or histories of the area.
This is snark, right? 9A to 9N were pretty obviously assigned in 1930 in alphabetical order from south to north. (Except 9B - I don't know where that was originally.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_9_in_New_York#Suffixed_routes
ISTR that 9B was absorbed into an extended 9A.
NY 9R is the Pirate's Highway, or even the German Pirate's Highway. No, I can't take credit for either.
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
NY 9N starts significantly south of the North Country; NY 28N probably just means "north", since it's essentially a northern alignment of NY 28.
9N absorbed an older route, 9K if I recall correctly, with now forms its southern half.
Quote from: NE2 on October 14, 2013, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: xcellntbuy on October 14, 2013, 05:20:11 PM
Some of the NY 9-x suffix routes are partly associated with the areas or histories of the area.
This is snark, right? 9A to 9N were pretty obviously assigned in 1930 in alphabetical order from south to north. (Except 9B - I don't know where that was originally.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_9_in_New_York#Suffixed_routes
No question they were assigned geographically, but the mnemonic associations with the letters are a nice added touch. Now let's see someone tackle NY 17's suffixes from that perspective!
I always thought that some of the NY 17 suffixed routes were based on destination... NY 17E to Elmira, NY 17J to Jamestown, NY 17M to Middletown, etc.
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 15, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
I always thought that some of the NY 17 suffixed routes were based on destination... NY 17E to Elmira, NY 17J to Jamestown, NY 17M to Middletown, etc.
That too is coincidence (except perhaps 17M). In 1930 you had 17A to 17J increasing from east to west. Sorry to spoil your fun.
Quote from: NE2 on October 15, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 15, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
I always thought that some of the NY 17 suffixed routes were based on destination... NY 17E to Elmira, NY 17J to Jamestown, NY 17M to Middletown, etc.
That too is coincidence (except perhaps 17M). In 1930 you had 17A to 17J increasing from east to west. Sorry to spoil your fun.
Yeah, I don't think it would work with NY 17K.
Well at the very least, we know why US 20SY was suffixed as US 20SY. :)
The only suffixed route that I know offhand that has an actual meaning is NY 5S, as it runs south of the Mohawk River (whereas NY 5 runs north of it).
Quote from: WNYroadgeek on October 15, 2013, 10:49:46 PM
The only suffixed route that I know offhand that has an actual meaning is NY 5S, as it runs south of the Mohawk River (whereas NY 5 runs north of it).
There's also NY 6N, which runs to the north of US 6.
Also NY 28N. NY 31A and NY3A both function as "alternate", as does NY 11A.
Quote from: vdeane on October 16, 2013, 08:53:08 PM
Also NY 28N. NY 31A and NY3A both function as "alternate", as does NY 11A.
NY 31A was assigned with the others when 3 was truncated. So really, I'm not calling that an alternate.
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on October 16, 2013, 09:07:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 16, 2013, 08:53:08 PM
Also NY 28N. NY 31A and NY3A both function as "alternate", as does NY 11A.
NY 31A was assigned with the others when 3 was truncated. So really, I'm not calling that an alternate.
It's a coincidental remnant; NY 31E is just as nearby and just as alternate as NY 31A. Now, I have always considered NY 31F to refer to "Fairport", but now I suppose that's equally a coincidence.
There was also NY 33B in "Buffalo"...but NY 33A in Rochester (still).
Oh yeah, forgot to mention NY 33A... even if not intended, they still function as "alternate" fairly well.
Of course, US 20A really does mean alternate.
NY 31F is just plain weird, seeing as it has to multiplex with NY 350 to meet NY 31 at all. And there's former NY 252A, which did not intersect NY 252 at all.
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
And there's former NY 252A, which did not intersect NY 252 at all.
WV 27 Alternate (signed with banners) never meets WV 27.
1X... and no 1W?
Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2013, 05:18:28 PM
NY 9N starts significantly south of the North Country; NY 28N probably just means "north", since it's essentially a northern alignment of NY 28.
No question they were assigned geographically, but the mnemonic associations with the letters are a nice added touch. Now let's see someone tackle NY 17's suffixes from that perspective!
Or, they could revive NY 27A east of the Oakdale Merge, and revive Suffolk CR 36's state maintenance status as NY 27B (for Bellport and/or Brookhaven), and upgrade the former NY Truck Route 27A/current Suffolk CR 98 as NY 27C (for Center Moriches).
:) :D
Quote from: D-Dey65 on March 06, 2014, 04:45:53 PM
Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2013, 05:18:28 PM
NY 9N starts significantly south of the North Country; NY 28N probably just means "north", since it's essentially a northern alignment of NY 28.
No question they were assigned geographically, but the mnemonic associations with the letters are a nice added touch. Now let's see someone tackle NY 17's suffixes from that perspective!
Or, they could revive NY 27A east of the Oakdale Merge, and revive Suffolk CR 36's state maintenance status as NY 27B (for Bellport and/or Brookhaven), and upgrade the former NY Truck Route 27A/current Suffolk CR 98 as NY 27C (for Center Moriches).
:) :D
I'm all for bringing back NY 27A from Oakdale to Southampton, as well as extending it west along Merrick Road and Merrick Boulevard to Jamaica. However, CR 36 and CR 98 seem a bit minor for state route status. There are a plenty of other county routes that I would have higher on my list for deserving promotion.
While we're on the topic of letter suffixes that stand for something, how about promoting Suffolk CR 58 to NY 25N?
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
Quote from: dgolub on March 07, 2014, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
MA 1A theoretically multiplexes with US 1 - at least, the mileage is consistent between the two segments (actually, I believe, following the old US 1 alignment through Boston). I don't believe the other MA "A" routes do the same, though.
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2014, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: dgolub on March 07, 2014, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
MA 1A theoretically multiplexes with US 1 - at least, the mileage is consistent between the two segments (actually, I believe, following the old US 1 alignment through Boston). I don't believe the other MA "A" routes do the same, though.
I don't know where Google data is pulled from, but a quick glance at Erving shows 2A and 2 multiplexed, so there's a database someplace where that's the case, even if wrong. It's Friday and I'm tired, otherwise I'd go poke around MassGIS to check.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 07, 2014, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2014, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: dgolub on March 07, 2014, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
MA 1A theoretically multiplexes with US 1 - at least, the mileage is consistent between the two segments (actually, I believe, following the old US 1 alignment through Boston). I don't believe the other MA "A" routes do the same, though.
I don't know where Google data is pulled from, but a quick glance at Erving shows 2A and 2 multiplexed, so there's a database someplace where that's the case, even if wrong. It's Friday and I'm tired, otherwise I'd go poke around MassGIS to check.
Actually, there is a physical 2/2A concurrency at one point, which is probably that. (There may be another one to the east by the Concord rotary, I believe.) So 1A and 2A keep mileage, others don't - certainly not 3A.
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2014, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 07, 2014, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2014, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: dgolub on March 07, 2014, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
MA 1A theoretically multiplexes with US 1 - at least, the mileage is consistent between the two segments (actually, I believe, following the old US 1 alignment through Boston). I don't believe the other MA "A" routes do the same, though.
I don't know where Google data is pulled from, but a quick glance at Erving shows 2A and 2 multiplexed, so there's a database someplace where that's the case, even if wrong. It's Friday and I'm tired, otherwise I'd go poke around MassGIS to check.
Actually, there is a physical 2/2A concurrency at one point, which is probably that. (There may be another one to the east by the Concord rotary, I believe.) So 1A and 2A keep mileage, others don't - certainly not 3A.
Google has added many hidden routes, like reference route numbers on the Taconic State Parkway and the Berkshire Connector, and also NJ 444 and MA 3A.
Yes, Google thinks 3A is a multiplex. This started the exact same time the business/bypass/alternate banners showed up on Google.
The Goog seems to have auto-filled gaps in routes, even where gaps really do exist. This happens all the time with county roads in Florida.
Quote from: NE2 on March 07, 2014, 07:25:27 PM
The Goog seems to have auto-filled gaps in routes, even where gaps really do exist. This happens all the time with county roads in Florida.
They've done some of the same in New York also. The last time I tried to correct it on Google Map Maker, they told me that their sources told them that their original information was correct. I don't know what their sources were. I gave them a link to the official listing from the NYSDOT web site and got no response.
Delaware offers two suffixed routes (1A and 1B) for accessing Rehoboth Beach from DE 1.
A few miles NW near Lewes, there's DE 1D which, unlike 1A and 1B, doesn't directly feed into DE 1.
AFAIK there's no DE 1C or DE 1E or up.
And closer to the topic, I've driven NY 25A in Suffolk County, and ridden over the flyover from NB NY 14 to NB NY 14A north of Watkins Glen. I'll have to look at my maps and atlases to remind myself what other Empire State suffixed roads I've been on.
ixnay
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 07, 2014, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2014, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: dgolub on March 07, 2014, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 06, 2014, 07:28:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 14, 2013, 03:12:57 PMAnd THREE 111A: Why couldn't they just be 111A, 111B, and 111C?
"A" meaning "alternate"? Because they're all alternates. Massachusetts alternates start and stop as needed along a mainline route, maintaining the same designation each time. There is little chance of Main St. In Greenfield being confused with Mass Ave. in Cambridge.
They also do that with MA 6A on Cape Cod. There's one MA 6A further south and then a short one up by Provincetown.
MA 1A theoretically multiplexes with US 1 - at least, the mileage is consistent between the two segments (actually, I believe, following the old US 1 alignment through Boston). I don't believe the other MA "A" routes do the same, though.
I don't know where Google data is pulled from, but a quick glance at Erving shows 2A and 2 multiplexed, so there's a database someplace where that's the case, even if wrong. It's Friday and I'm tired, otherwise I'd go poke around MassGIS to check.
According to the MassDOT MilePoint maps I have looked at (available at: http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/planning/Main/MapsDataandReports/Maps/NumberedRouteswithMilePoints.aspx (http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/planning/Main/MapsDataandReports/Maps/NumberedRouteswithMilePoints.aspx)), it appears most eastern MA alternate routes are continuous, but unsigned, between their signed segments along their parent routes. This includes US 1 MA 2 and MA 3. Therefore, the SE Expressway, for example, is officially I-93/US 1/MA 1A/MA 3/MA 3A north of Neponset Circle and I-93 between Canton and Braintree is officially I-93/US 1/MA 1A. An interesting side note from looking closely at the Boston inset on the state map (the official District 6 map does not included the milepoints), is that MA 1A North is officially routed along I-90 from I-93 to East Boston. Mile 47 occurs just before the South Boston interchange (Exit 25) and mile 48 is somewhere under Boston Harbor.
Quote from: dgolub on March 06, 2014, 06:57:10 PM
I'm all for bringing back NY 27A from Oakdale to Southampton, as well as extending it west along Merrick Road and Merrick Boulevard to Jamaica. However, CR 36 and CR 98 seem a bit minor for state route status. There are a plenty of other county routes that I would have higher on my list for deserving promotion.
CR 36 was originally part of Montauk Highway and thus NY 27 until 1932. CR 98 was also a truck detour of NY 27A. I'd say they'd be perfect for upgrades. In the case of the "Moriches Bypass," all you'd have to do is halt development on land that was originally set aside for the extra lanes, and you'd have something good.
Quote from: dgolub on March 06, 2014, 06:57:10 PM
While we're on the topic of letter suffixes that stand for something, how about promoting Suffolk CR 58 to NY 25N?
If anything, I still say keep it as is, and run Interstate 495 Business Route along it east of Exit 73.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on March 09, 2014, 11:14:44 PM
Quote from: dgolub on March 06, 2014, 06:57:10 PM
I'm all for bringing back NY 27A from Oakdale to Southampton, as well as extending it west along Merrick Road and Merrick Boulevard to Jamaica. However, CR 36 and CR 98 seem a bit minor for state route status. There are a plenty of other county routes that I would have higher on my list for deserving promotion.
CR 36 was originally part of Montauk Highway and thus NY 27 until 1932. CR 98 was also a truck detour of NY 27A. I'd say they'd be perfect for upgrades. In the case of the "Moriches Bypass," all you'd have to do is halt development on land that was originally set aside for the extra lanes, and you'd have something good.
I'd say bring back Truck NY 27A along CR 98. Or do a bypass/business setup like there is in Rocky Point.
Quote from: dgolub on March 10, 2014, 08:42:37 AM
I'd say bring back Truck NY 27A along CR 98. Or do a bypass/business setup like there is in Rocky Point.
Somehow I almost feel like combining your two suggestions.