http://www.trbimg.com/img-525756bd/turbine/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010/400/16x9
I live in western Pa and I was driving through cranberry township until I noticed so,etching odd at the end of route 228 ramp. I saw two left turn signal traffic lights with red arrows on them. I made a turn and I saw a couple more of those on the main drag. Penndot usually doesn't use those kind of traffic signals they usually use the traditional red ball for protected left turns. Did penndot change its ways and do what Ohio did too because I heard that they started using red arrows too.
PennDOT's been using red arrow signals for roughly 10 years now... at least in southeastern PA/Greater Philadelphia.
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 16, 2013, 03:54:54 PM
PennDOT's been using red arrow signals for roughly 10 years now... at least in southeastern PA/Greater Philadelphia.
That's the only place I've only seen red arrows at in Pennsylvania but outside of philly I've never seen red arrows on traffic lights especially in western pa
Well, if that's the case, welcome to the latter part of the 20th century, PA.
Looks like the signals have come to Allentown as well
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-10-10/news/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010_1_arrow-traffic-lights-signals
Quote from: MASTERNC on October 16, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
Looks like the signals have come to Allentown as well
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-10-10/news/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010_1_arrow-traffic-lights-signals
They also talk about the flashing yellow arrow in that article too and why it isn't approved in PA yet...
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like this writer for the Road Warrior seems more angry; more opinionated; more cynical than he used to be. If anything, as in this case, PA is simply following the rules or guidelines of the MUTCD and doing what many other states have already been doing.
Just saw another red arrow in King of Prussia at a new light on 202 where Wawa just opened (and a new Target is under construction).
Funny thing is there was a new left turn signal installed in Oaks on Egypt Road just past 422, but it does not have a red arrow. Then again it is on wires (not a mast), so it may be temporary while they finish the new development nearby.
Quote from: Fntp on October 16, 2013, 04:47:36 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 16, 2013, 03:54:54 PM
PennDOT's been using red arrow signals for roughly 10 years now... at least in southeastern PA/Greater Philadelphia.
That's the only place I've only seen red arrows at in Pennsylvania but outside of philly I've never seen red arrows on traffic lights especially in western pa
There is a red arrow in the left turn signal on Fort Duquesne Boulevard (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pittsburgh,+PA&hl=en&ll=40.443634,-80.004673&spn=0.001145,0.002411&sll=41.117935,-77.604698&sspn=4.642397,9.876709&oq=Pitts&hnear=Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.443597,-80.004656&panoid=OTphw8oxGoYGa7tk4K6F8Q&cbp=12,234.28,,0,2.26) at Stanwix Street in Pittsburgh.
Nice! Pan that image to the right of the camera and you get PNC Park, home of the Pirates. :)
Mt. Lebanon (south of Pittsburgh) has installed red left turn arrows and even has a right red arrow on US 19 by the Galleria mall
The red arrows are spreading across Connecticut too. Even old installations are getting them which surprised me, so it must be an active mandate to replace the old red ball+yellow/green left arrow signal with an all left arrow signal. I'm indifferent to red arrows, so retrofitting seems like a waste of money, at least to me.
I just saw another one near Harrisburg pa this time it was a black signal with a yellow outer boarder it had a red arrow on it it looked liked it was pretty new because I saw more new ones but they were not working yet
Seems like the use of red arrows for new traffic signals is based on the contractor and/or municipality. I noticed another new project off US 422 (Oaks, PA) where new signals use red balls instead of arrows, only 6 miles or so from King of Prussia, where several new signals use red arrows.
Haven't seen too many new red arrows except in townships where they were already present (such as Upper Merion, near King of Prussia). Another project I pass daily is not using red arrows for left turn signals. They will be replacing other lights on the corridor as part of this project, so it'll be interesting to see if any of those get arrows.
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 12:45:11 AM
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
You're comparing PA's changeover today to NJ 30 years ago??
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 12:45:11 AM
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
Doghouses that protect left turns still are programmed to show the red ball and the green arrow at the same time. For some reason the red ball goes out on some lights during the yellow arrow phase. It's always bothered me.
There are still also some programmable 3 phase protected left turn signals here in PA that still have a red ball instead of a red arrow, but they're pretty rare these days.
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 27, 2015, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 12:45:11 AM
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
Doghouses that protect left turns still are programmed to show the red ball and the green arrow at the same time. For some reason the red ball goes out on some lights during the yellow arrow phase. It's always bothered me.
There are still also some programmable 3 phase protected left turn signals here in PA that still have a red ball instead of a red arrow, but they're pretty rare these days.
He's referring to a left turn light that wasn't a doghouse, and were exclusively used for a left turning lane. These were generally: Red Ball, Yellow Arrow, Green Arrow. The Red Ball would remain lit when the green arrow was lit. When the yellow arrow lit, sometimes the red would remain lit, sometimes it wouldn't - it all depended on the intersection and how it was programmed.
Other states used this as well.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2015, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 27, 2015, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 12:45:11 AM
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
Doghouses that protect left turns still are programmed to show the red ball and the green arrow at the same time. For some reason the red ball goes out on some lights during the yellow arrow phase. It's always bothered me.
There are still also some programmable 3 phase protected left turn signals here in PA that still have a red ball instead of a red arrow, but they're pretty rare these days.
He's referring to a left turn light that wasn't a doghouse, and were exclusively used for a left turning lane. These were generally: Red Ball, Yellow Arrow, Green Arrow. The Red Ball would remain lit when the green arrow was lit. When the yellow arrow lit, sometimes the red would remain lit, sometimes it wouldn't - it all depended on the intersection and how it was programmed.
Other states used this as well.
I knew he was. What I meant to say though those lights, instead of being replaced with three phased turn signals with red arrows, are actually being replaced by doghouses by a lot of jurisdictions here in PA and usually with in street sensors that trigger different phases/sequences depending on the traffic queued at the stop signal.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2015, 08:43:29 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 12:45:11 AM
Yes, I remember when NJ did not use them as they were like PA with the 3M lenses aimed only at the effected lanes. I guess if NJ could change so could PA as NJ started the changeover in the mid 1980's.
What I remember about PA the most was that the red ball for protected left turns never went out even with the green arrow. They usually stayed on so you would have a red ball and a green arrow simultaneously. I imagine that PennDOT dumped that practice a long long time ago as this was used well back in the 80s and before.
Since I moved to FL I do not visit PA like I used to living in NJ which was once every two weeks practically.
You're comparing PA's changeover today to NJ 30 years ago??
Exactly! I am saying that they are doing now (from what I have heard here anyway) what Jersey did several decades ago.
When I left NJ in 90, they were already converting the old 3M signal heads with 12-12-12 with red arrows as that started back in the mid 80's. Each year when I visited New Jersey from 90 to my last visit in 12, I would see more an more conversions, as I assume that it must be near complete. Although I would imagine that someplace in NJ there still might be 3M left turn signals still around just as some old double guy signals from the post WWII era still are in use.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
Although I would imagine that someplace in NJ there still might be 3M left turn signals still around just as some old double guy signals from the post WWII era still are in use.
GSV from Sept 14: Rt. 553 at Rt. 55: https://goo.gl/maps/nVEZ2 . These were originally installed in 1985 or so. Having said that, I was at this intersection yesterday, and the 3M traffic light had since been replaced. Since I was actually in the left turn lane, I couldn't tell you if the new light is based on your view. However, it did have that appearance. Next time I go straight thru here I'll have to take another look at it.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on October 18, 2013, 01:00:40 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on October 16, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
Looks like the signals have come to Allentown as well
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-10-10/news/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010_1_arrow-traffic-lights-signals
They also talk about the flashing yellow arrow in that article too and why it isn't approved in PA yet...
PennDOT can't simply add a 'left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow' sign as at least one other state did while waiting for the legislature to adjust the vehicular code?
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 27, 2015, 06:01:01 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on October 18, 2013, 01:00:40 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on October 16, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
Looks like the signals have come to Allentown as well
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-10-10/news/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010_1_arrow-traffic-lights-signals
They also talk about the flashing yellow arrow in that article too and why it isn't approved in PA yet...
PennDOT can't simply add a 'left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow' sign as at least one other state did while waiting for the legislature to adjust the vehicular code?
Generally speaking, and legally speaking, No. About the only way it can be done is if an executive order was signed by the Governor to allow it. And in terms of something that would require the Governor's immediate attention, a flashing yellow arrow isn't it.
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Quote from: mariethefoxy on August 28, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Yeah cause they're almost always doghouses and people don't seem to know what to do when they see red ball/green right arrow for their lane. There is one intersection in Philly that replaced the right turn signal doghouses with right red arrows (and unfortunately brought red light cameras with them) and no turn on red signs.
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 28, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on August 28, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Yeah cause they're almost always doghouses and people don't seem to know what to do when they see red ball/green right arrow for their lane. There is one intersection in Philly that replaced the right turn signal doghouses with right red arrows (and unfortunately brought red light cameras with them) and no turn on red signs.
The LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs are out of compliance with the MUTCD IIRC. I believe they were removed from the MUTCD when red arrows became mandatory.
I know the location of the right red arrows with cameras (around City Hall). However, there are definitely right red arrows on South Street and near the stadiums (they all have the No Turn on Red signs, but the one by the stadium also permits right on red from the outside turn lane only).
Quote from: MASTERNC on August 28, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 28, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on August 28, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Yeah cause they're almost always doghouses and people don't seem to know what to do when they see red ball/green right arrow for their lane. There is one intersection in Philly that replaced the right turn signal doghouses with right red arrows (and unfortunately brought red light cameras with them) and no turn on red signs.
The LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs are out of compliance with the MUTCD IIRC. I believe they were removed from the MUTCD when red arrows became mandatory.
Since when? Illinois uses either those or LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY with either the red ball or the red arrow on a protected-only left turn signal display.
As for right red arrows, NO TURN ON RED makes perfect sense to add as here, a red ball and a red right arrow mean the exact same thing with respect to turning right on red.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on August 28, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 28, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on August 28, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Yeah cause they're almost always doghouses and people don't seem to know what to do when they see red ball/green right arrow for their lane. There is one intersection in Philly that replaced the right turn signal doghouses with right red arrows (and unfortunately brought red light cameras with them) and no turn on red signs.
The LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs are out of compliance with the MUTCD IIRC. I believe they were removed from the MUTCD when red arrows became mandatory.
Since when? Illinois uses either those or LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY with either the red ball or the red arrow on a protected-only left turn signal display.
As for right red arrows, NO TURN ON RED makes perfect sense to add as here, a red ball and a red right arrow mean the exact same thing with respect to turning right on red.
NYSDOT has been using red arrows since at least the mid-90s and "left turn signal" signs still exist out there. Red balls still exist, but at least in Region 5, they're limited to exit ramps and separated/tapered turn lanes. Wouldn't call 20+ years "recent".
Brandon is correct about the R10-5 (left turn on green arrow only sign). It
is is listed as an option in the 2009 MUTCD, as is the R10-10 (left/right turn signal sign). They remain in compliance.
Not to mention that red arrows are not mandated - you can have green arrow with red ball in some circumstances. (I know one is if it will only be red when the through street is red.)
Quote from: cl94 on August 28, 2015, 05:56:41 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 05:41:20 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on August 28, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
Quote from: ekt8750 on August 28, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on August 28, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
I noticed PA still uses that redundant RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign on the lights with the right arrows. New York took the LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs out recently when they put the red arrows in.
Yeah cause they're almost always doghouses and people don't seem to know what to do when they see red ball/green right arrow for their lane. There is one intersection in Philly that replaced the right turn signal doghouses with right red arrows (and unfortunately brought red light cameras with them) and no turn on red signs.
The LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs are out of compliance with the MUTCD IIRC. I believe they were removed from the MUTCD when red arrows became mandatory.
Since when? Illinois uses either those or LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY with either the red ball or the red arrow on a protected-only left turn signal display.
As for right red arrows, NO TURN ON RED makes perfect sense to add as here, a red ball and a red right arrow mean the exact same thing with respect to turning right on red.
NYSDOT has been using red arrows since at least the mid-90s and "left turn signal" signs still exist out there. Red balls still exist, but at least in Region 5, they're limited to exit ramps and separated/tapered turn lanes. Wouldn't call 20+ years "recent".
Brandon is correct about the R10-5 (left turn on green arrow only sign). It is is listed as an option in the 2009 MUTCD, as is the R10-10 (left/right turn signal sign). They remain in compliance.
I see the R10-10 is still there. However, on page 470 (Section 4D.19), where it discusses signal faces for protected left turns, it seems to specify that only one sign be used with such a signal, and it is not the LEFT TURN SIGNAL sign.
QuoteIt shall be capable of displaying, the following signal indications: steady left-turn RED ARROW, steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW, and left-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the three indications shall be displayed at any given time. A signal instruction sign shall not be required with this set of signal indications. If used, it shall be a LEFT ON GREEN ARROW ONLY (R10-5) sign (see Figure 2B-27)
The 2013 driver's manual still says "While not common in Pennsylvania, a red arrow means you cannot turn left on the red arrow". I'm gonna take their word for it and say it's gonna be a while till PA actually starts using these red arrows for signals.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 29, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
The 2013 driver's manual still says "While not common in Pennsylvania, a red arrow means you cannot turn left on the red arrow". I'm gonna take their word for it and say it's gonna be a while till PA actually starts using these red arrows for signals.
You mean replaces all the red balls with red arrows. They clearly already started using red arrows.
And if that's the exact language in the driving manual, that is wrong as well. It should simply say you cannot turn in the direction of the red arrow, as there may be right arrows at some intersections.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 29, 2015, 11:26:44 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 29, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
The 2013 driver's manual still says "While not common in Pennsylvania, a red arrow means you cannot turn left on the red arrow". I'm gonna take their word for it and say it's gonna be a while till PA actually starts using these red arrows for signals.
You mean replaces all the red balls with red arrows. They clearly already started using red arrows.
And if that's the exact language in the driving manual, that is wrong as well. It should simply say you cannot turn in the direction of the red arrow, as there may be right arrows at some intersections.
Yeah I did not remember part of it. I meant "cannot turn in the direction of the red arrow". Derp.
It's funny that the drivers manual hasn't changed that quote because I've noticed that the red balls over left turn lanes and right turn lanes have been replaced with a completly new signal or retrofitted into an older one with the red arrow kind of like the ones here in Pittsburgh https://www.google.com/maps/@40.454055,-79.9533653,3a,75y,260.97h,83.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV6-XywL2UiALRw1GFn0r7w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: Fntp on October 12, 2015, 01:22:33 PM
It's funny that the drivers manual hasn't changed that quote because I've noticed that the red balls over left turn lanes and right turn lanes have been replaced with a completly new signal or retrofitted into an older one with the red arrow kind of like the ones here in Pittsburgh https://www.google.com/maps/@40.454055,-79.9533653,3a,75y,260.97h,83.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV6-XywL2UiALRw1GFn0r7w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I wouldn't be surprised if that particular installation is going to be replaced during the current Bigelow/Craig/Baum reconstruction project (though while the hardware might be new, it will probably be the same general idea.)