No, not the current MTR with Larry Sheldon showing his ass at every turn. I mean the old MTR. The forum where everybody was cool with everybody. The forum where questions that constantly pop up on this forum originally were asked and discussed. The forum where you could say "do us all a favor and fuck off" and be called a terrorist one minute, then become a beloved figure. I miss being myself and not worrying about having a mod change up my post into something barely recognizable. I miss 1998-era MTR :(
Due to my age, I can't nod my head in agreement, but... I miss a lot of the things you named, except with the Yahoo groups. I at least know the general direction you're coming from.
Call it the inexorable march of progress. Roadgeeks are still around, we still have websites, we still have places to talk*, we still gather in person, and we're still growing in number.
The only thing that actually concerns me is the move away from personal websites and toward doing everything on Facebook, YouTube, and photo sharing sites, because then all the content belongs to the site owner. You can't customize as much of what goes where, you're subject to their terms and conditions, and they can do what they want with your stuff. It's like how malls were heralded as a new public square in the 1960s and 70s, until we discovered that we were bound by the property owner's arbitrary rules and could get kicked out on a whim.
Roadgeeks as a group tend to be a couple years behind what the web is doing (look how long we stayed on Usenet), and forums have faded a lot in popularity in the last few years. I hope this one doesn't fade. You don't have total freedom to do whatever here, but you still have a lot, and everything new that comes along seems to bring a little less of it and a little less anonymity.
* And actually, it's pretty amazing that we almost all wound up here on AARoads, instead of going off in different directions and making 10 forums. Not many hobbies can say that!
I miss having my website hosted on xoom.com.
QuoteI miss being myself and not worrying about having a mod change up my post into something barely recognizable.
When has that ever happened? Post merges don't clear the threshold of "barely recognizable"- you might find them annoying, but there's no way to argue that makes them barely recognizable.
I miss the old mtr, but I don't miss what's become of it. In many ways, this is more like mtr was in its heyday (late 1990s, early 200s). Many of the same people are here with new ones coming along all the time.
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Quote from: corco on October 26, 2013, 08:39:33 PM
QuoteI miss being myself and not worrying about having a mod change up my post into something barely recognizable.
When has that ever happened? Post merges don't clear the threshold of "barely recognizable"- you might find them annoying, but there's no way to argue that makes them barely recognizable.
The post merges make reading posts almost impossible. Besides, it's silly to combine 2 easy to read messages about two totally different subjects into one hard to read post.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
But she did! Then planned 9/11 to hide the evidence.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Those guys were fun. They added color to the discussions, and were good for a bit of a laugh.
I have thought about reviving the Tom From Ohio troll, but I'm sure the moderators would nip that in the bud, even though I think most of the posters, especially the old timers would get a kick out of it. The newbies who have only heard of the legend of TFO would get to experience it first hand and would get their own "do us all a favor and FUCK OFF!" posts.
Quote from: NE2 on October 27, 2013, 02:20:02 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
But she did! Then planned 9/11 to hide the evidence.
She did kill him, accident or not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Canadian_Interstates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs)
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
It's called a "killfile". Your newsreader doesn't offer that feature?
Some of us used Google Groups.
This thread is bringing back memories of "Portland is not Atlanta".
I fondly remember MTRLog and the proliferation of the copycat MTRLogs, long before the term "blog" ever caught on.
Quote from: dlainhart on October 27, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
It's called a "killfile". Your newsreader doesn't offer that feature?
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2013, 04:06:46 PM
Some of us used Google Groups.
Indeed. I had no access to a Usenet feed (my ISP didn't offer one, to my knowledge).
Quote from: dlainhart on October 27, 2013, 07:45:36 PM
I fondly remember MTRLog and the proliferation of the copycat MTRLogs, long before the term "blog" ever caught on.
Surprised to see they're still online, since they stopped around 2001: http://mtrlog7.pitas.com/ (also 2 thru 6, same site)
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
Amen, brother, a-fucking-men.
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
BURN!
Quote from: bugo on October 28, 2013, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 27, 2013, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2013, 01:57:48 PM
Moderation is what keeps this place from looking like modern-day MTR. No Calrog, no "Laura Bush killed her teenage boyfriend" or whoever the hell that was, etc.
Right, because the locking of the thread "Interstates that could go into Canada" was totally necessary to prevent these from happening to this forum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
BURN!
If you want MTR you know where to find it.
I don't want the current MTR. I want the old MTR.
Quote from: bugo on October 28, 2013, 04:33:00 AM
I don't want the current MTR. I want the old MTR.
Dude, let it go, the old mtr is not coming back. Ever. Usenet is as dead as MySpace. It's so dead you can stick a fork in it and have the fork get rejected as the fork has more life. This is the next best thing to the old mtr without the spam or the Calrog, or even any viatology shittola. I've made my voice heard on excessive post merges, but this is far better than the old mtr in certain respects. I'm glad most of the political garbage gets shit-canned before it has a chance to stink up the rest of the forum like a week-old can of tuna sitting forgotten under the couch next to several old, dirty socks.
The mods here have been more than fair, in my ever-so-humble opinion, to everyone here, even that blawp "stoppit, you're insulting the wonderful world of California" fellow. Wait a tick, he got hit with the ban stick for being an asshole. Even then, they were more than fair with him, even when he posted photographs that might have belonged in Maxim. Hell, if they were truly sadistic and believed themselves to be the second incarnation of Mount Olympus, they've have banned several of us quite some time ago, even you, bugo. The simple fact that they tolerate you, me, etc, while having a slew of threads pertaining to roads, even with off-topic discussion and and off-topic arena, is evidence enough that this is closer to the old mtr than mtr is currently.
Most the folks from the so-called old mtr are here, not at mtr. That, and we have fresh meat..er..newer folks who have joined us who otherwise would never have gotten usenet, nor have touched its stinking carcass with a ten-foot pole. It's just not "in", you know. I'm quite happy with AARoads as it is, and it is, IMHO, the real successor to the old mtr. At least without the "Make Money Fast", "Use This To Increase Your Size", and "Hot Russian Girls" spam threads.
Quote from: Brandon on October 28, 2013, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: bugo on October 28, 2013, 04:33:00 AM
I don't want the current MTR. I want the old MTR.
Dude, let it go, the old mtr is not coming back. Ever. Usenet is as dead as MySpace. It's so dead you can stick a fork in it and have the fork get rejected as the fork has more life. This is the next best thing to the old mtr without the spam or the Calrog, or even any viatology shittola. I've made my voice heard on excessive post merges, but this is far better than the old mtr in certain respects. I'm glad most of the political garbage gets shit-canned before it has a chance to stink up the rest of the forum like a week-old can of tuna sitting forgotten under the couch next to several old, dirty socks.
The mods here have been more than fair, in my ever-so-humble opinion, to everyone here, even that blawp "stoppit, you're insulting the wonderful world of California" fellow. Wait a tick, he got hit with the ban stick for being an asshole. Even then, they were more than fair with him, even when he posted photographs that might have belonged in Maxim. Hell, if they were truly sadistic and believed themselves to be the second incarnation of Mount Olympus, they've have banned several of us quite some time ago, even you, bugo. The simple fact that they tolerate you, me, etc, while having a slew of threads pertaining to roads, even with off-topic discussion and and off-topic arena, is evidence enough that this is closer to the old mtr than mtr is currently.
Most the folks from the so-called old mtr are here, not at mtr. That, and we have fresh meat..er..newer folks who have joined us who otherwise would never have gotten usenet, nor have touched its stinking carcass with a ten-foot pole. It's just not "in", you know. I'm quite happy with AARoads as it is, and it is, IMHO, the real successor to the old mtr. At least without the "Make Money Fast", "Use This To Increase Your Size", and "Hot Russian Girls" spam threads.
You can find hot Russian girls here? O_o!!
Actually, all kidding aside, i have seen the MTR as it was degenerating into an abuse-fest....and i like it here much better. (and as has been noted, no viatology spam, nor Calrog to bug us.....
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2013, 12:28:05 AMIndeed. I had no access to a Usenet feed (my ISP didn't offer one, to my knowledge).
I never looked to an ISP to supply a feed when I read MTR through an NNTP server, as I did for about a year before I finally gave up on the newsgroup because that was the only way to block Carl Rogers. People used to speak about pay news providers but the one I used (based in Ukraine) was free.
In the end I gave up on MTR because I felt I had reached a choice between quitting the newsgroup altogether or adding more names to the killfile, starting with Larry Sheldon.
I have always felt that lack of ISP news access was just an alibi people cited to explain MTR's decline in order to avoid confronting the real reason, which was that no matter how high the proportion of regulars who killfiled the known bad actors and refrained from responding to flamebait, the trolls still shaped the discussion by defining the environment in which it occurred (classic application of the broken-window theory).
Actually, Larry Sheldon is one of the few on-topic posters left on m.t.r.
I still read m.t.r and post there occasionally, and I have noticed a distinct lack of traffic, but I don't know how much of that is because of the decline of m.t.r specifically and Usenet in general, and how much of it is because I have a whole bunch of people killfiled. I dumped John Lansford a long time ago because despite his credentials and his participation in the design of I-26 in North Carolina, I couldn't take his attitude (or his politics, but that's another story). I have a bunch of other people there plonked because of their various attitudes and some of their opinions. And of course I had every iteration of Randy Hersh killfiled (to me, he, not Carl Rogers, epitomized the worst of m.t.r; Calrog's just a harmless tool but Randy was a raving lunatic and I say that despite knowing Mr. Winkler had a good relationship with him; I think Jonathan was about the only one who did). Sometimes I think about going in and opening up the filters and see what pours out, but if GPSMan is still spewing his nonsense, I might have to dam the creek up once again.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 28, 2013, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2013, 12:28:05 AMIndeed. I had no access to a Usenet feed (my ISP didn't offer one, to my knowledge).
I never looked to an ISP to supply a feed when I read MTR through an NNTP server, as I did for about a year before I finally gave up on the newsgroup because that was the only way to block Carl Rogers. People used to speak about pay news providers but the one I used (based in Ukraine) was free.
Is Eternal September, or whatever it was called or it became, still active? I know that service had another name but can't remember if it was Eternal September beforehand or if that's what it changed its name to. Motzarella, I think.
I still use a paid news server (newsguy) because I download files from Usenet (mostly MP3s but occasionally software).
Usenet activity as a whole has really diminished. I haven't looked at rec.autos.sport.nascar, my other favorite newsgroup besides m.t.r, in a long time, but I have a feeling that it's nowhere near as active as it used to be either. I blame the crackdown on pornography for ISPs abandoning Usenet entirely instead of filtering out just the offending groups. I know AT&T dropped Usenet access a few years ago, not long before I moved and had to give up my DSL service.
I leapt out the flaming building years before the study of viatology was founded. I hated the mailing-list format even more than I do the webforum, so my contact and discussion was limited to Facebook for years. I'm not sure how I even remained connected.
Even now I still stick to Facebook, as this site is all-but-unusable on Android. Pounding out this message I'd driving me mad. (If there's a mobile version, PLEASE point me to it.) Eternal September began twenty years ago now, and to be fair, that's how I discovered I wasn't the only one with this peculiar interest...
MTR always was the best format for discussion, and frankly, if a Facebook group newsgroup fusion format came up, that would be fantastic. For now, though, I'll remain primarily active on Facebook.
Quote from: dlainhart on October 28, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
Even now I still stick to Facebook, as this site is all-but-unusable on Android. Pounding out this message I'd driving me mad. (If there's a mobile version, PLEASE point me to it.)
QuoteNews: Mobile users, the Forum is now available on Tapatalk.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10609
I took a look at my killfile. I don't recognize a lot of the names or email addresses in it, but here are a few that may ring a few bells:
George Conklin
"jgar the jorrible <joel-garry@home.com>"
""Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are Murderers" <threeburd@yahoo.com>"
John Lansford
William Colin Smith
""Bob C," <bobc867@hotmail.com>"
John A. Weeks III
"hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com"
Garrett Wollman
gpsman
Kurt M. Weber
"Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>"
Kenny McCormack
xeton2001@yahoo.com (a/k/a SADDAM or Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend)
I think most of them ended up in my killfile because of their opinions about cell phone usage while driving (they want to ban it entirely, not just limit it to handsfree devices).
If anyone reads m.t.r anymore, are any of these people still active?
I also have a bunch of subjects killfiled, such as "Bushamerica," "C'mon America, ticket left lane hogs", "Why do people object to highway cameras?" and several others because I remember them getting waaaay out of hand.
I un-plonked all of Randy's aliases so they can go join him wherever he is spending eternity.
Quote from: NE2 on October 28, 2013, 04:56:02 PM
QuoteNews: Mobile users, the Forum is now available on Tapatalk.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10609
I JUST got the box popup telling me. Finally.
SCH-I535
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2013, 09:46:53 PM
I think most of them ended up in my killfile because of their opinions about cell phone usage while driving (they want to ban it entirely, not just limit it to handsfree devices).
You'd best plonk me too.
Quote from: NE2 on October 29, 2013, 05:18:59 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2013, 09:46:53 PM
I think most of them ended up in my killfile because of their opinions about cell phone usage while driving (they want to ban it entirely, not just limit it to handsfree devices).
You'd best plonk me too.
Me too.
Quote from: NE2 on October 29, 2013, 05:18:59 AM
You'd best plonk me too.
Quote from: bugo on October 29, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Me too.
I use my cellphone hands-free occasionally when I'm coordinating meeting up with someone, like air traffic control, and if it needs to eat brain cycles I pull over. The kind of conversation I can have (and have had) in my sleep (several times, actually). I don't have too much of a problem with pizza delivery boys doing such a thing, as long as they're not simultaneously smoking blunts.
People who call me, knowing that I am on the road, make me mad.
I pull over to text, period.
I also think people who hold conversations longer than five minutes on a cell phone while driving, like they're talking to old friends, should be lined up against a brick wall and mowed down with a Browning M2. There should be a warning sentence first, which would be forcible attendance of one of these events.
Ah, feels like the old mtr already...:-)
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: bugo on October 29, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 29, 2013, 05:18:59 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 28, 2013, 09:46:53 PM
I think most of them ended up in my killfile because of their opinions about cell phone usage while driving (they want to ban it entirely, not just limit it to handsfree devices).
You'd best plonk me too.
Me too.
Me too.
Usenet in general is pretty much dead. And it's all because of the Usenet Cabal: the raving lunatics and control freaks who cluttered it with spam and personal attacks in the late '90s.
There is absolutely no excuse for what happened. None. What they did was criminal.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 29, 2013, 02:41:29 PM
And it's all because of the Usenet Cabal: the raving lunatics and control freaks who cluttered it with spam and personal attacks in the late '90s.
Fortunately, those Comic-Book-Guys have been de-admin'd pretty much everywhere by normal human beings.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: bugo on October 29, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
Me too.
I actually had some of your old aliases plonked, but since I promised not to out you, I didn't list them.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 29, 2013, 02:41:29 PM
Usenet in general is pretty much dead. And it's all because of the Usenet Cabal: the raving lunatics and control freaks who cluttered it with spam and personal attacks in the late '90s.
There is absolutely no excuse for what happened. None. What they did was criminal.
Aaah, the imaginary "Cabal" again.
What really killed Usenet was the "baby with the bathwater" approach that a lot of ISPs took to the anti-child porn efforts by a former New York attorney general (I always thought it was Eliot Spitzer, but others have said it was Mario Cuomo). Instead of just blocking the child porn binary groups, ISPs just did away with their Usenet feeds entirely.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 29, 2013, 03:50:22 PM
What really killed Usenet was the "baby with the bathwater" approach that a lot of ISPs took to the anti-child porn efforts by a former New York attorney general (I always thought it was Eliot Spitzer, but others have said it was Mario Cuomo). Instead of just blocking the child porn binary groups, ISPs just did away with their Usenet feeds entirely.
Strictly speaking, yes, that was the final nail in the coffin. It was an easy way for ISPs to shut down NNTP servers they didn't want to maintain while looking like heroes. Pure politics.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 29, 2013, 03:50:22 PMWhat really killed Usenet was the "baby with the bathwater" approach that a lot of ISPs took to the anti-child porn efforts by a former New York attorney general (I always thought it was Eliot Spitzer, but others have said it was Mario Cuomo).
Only Spitzer was attorney general then later governor; the elder Cuomo was never attorney general (but was governor).
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 29, 2013, 04:35:09 PM
Only Spitzer was attorney general then later governor; the elder Cuomo was never attorney general (but was governor).
It was Andrew Cuomo, during what would have been Spitzer's term.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
I remember Conklin, he singlehandedly destroyed the urban planning related USENET newsgroups. The best that I could tell, he is/was a prof at a local junior college and was all in a continual snot snit because the City of Durhan, NC had the audacity to annex his house.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on October 29, 2013, 09:57:32 PMI remember Conklin, he singlehandedly destroyed the urban planning related USENET newsgroups. The best that I could tell, he is/was a prof at a local junior college and was all in a continual snot snit because the City of Durham, NC had the audacity to annex his house.
Dr. Conklin is an academic, but not with a junior college--he is a (full) professor emeritus of sociology at North Carolina Central University (AB from Colgate University, 1963; PhD from University of Pennsylvania, 1971). Links: Profile page (http://www.nccu.edu/directory/details.cfm?id=gconklin),
Curriculum vitae (http://www.nccu.edu/directory/uservitas/gconklin.pdf).
NCCU is a HBCU, so it was widely suspected both in MTR and the main urban planning newsgroup (alt.planning.urban) that Dr. Conklin is black. Personally, I doubted it, and I don't know that he ever indicated whether he was.
Dr. Conklin had many axes to grind ("stop sprawling farmers!" was his take on geographical land-use management, for which Robert Cote--another high-volume APU poster--devised the cute acronym GLUM; Conklin also disliked car-derived SUVs), but in this respect he was far from alone. There was a sizable faction in APU that was engaged in jihad against Portland and MAX, New York and NYC Transit, Washington and the Metro, etc. and the back-and-forth swiftly descended into duels of out-of-context statistics cherry-picked from the relevant transit authorities' published reports. (Farebox recovery in particular was treated as a huge totem because it was regarded as proof that transit systems could be self-supporting. I was never quite sure whether the transit advocates were naive enough to believe sincerely that if they produced this evidence, the other side would accept defeat instead of trying to reframe the debate on terms more favorable to them.) It was waged at a much higher level of intellectual sophistication than in MTR, but it was still trench warfare.
Anthony Downs and his articles on location theory in
Housing Policy Debate also sparked intense discussion.
My clearest memory of APU is actually the episode where someone, in an attempt to refute the alleged fuel efficiency of bicycles compared to powered motor vehicles, calculated the indirect usage of fuel by bicyclists (including, e.g., fuel required to distribute food to the supermarkets where bicyclists buy it) and estimated that bicycles had an "effective" fuel economy of 50 MPG. It was a classic and not at all tongue-in-cheek example of how APU participants on both sides routinely treated joint costs in a slipshod if not actively deceptive way in order to build their arguments.
Is anybody else going to mention that actually reading Usenet gives one a visually-induced headache compared to thread-based forum discussion, or am I on this plank alone? Hell, I first got on the web in 1995, and didn't enjoy reading Usenet or newsreaders at all. Too difficult for my eyes to read, cumbersome to wade though, and repetitious due to copious over-quoting. Slow as could be, limited search ability...it lost me very quickly.
Never mind the bitching about minor crap by some tripe-spouting keyboard warrior who demanded respect before giving an ounce of it back, and with no mechanism to deal with them. Give nobody at all some bit of controlling power, and the lowest common denominator takes over. Moderated forums work so much better...not that there aren't forums that rot apart or wilt without any management, but this isn't a problem here.
I think some of you just have to realize what's done is done...
Quote from: formulanone on October 29, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
Is anybody else going to mention that actually reading Usenet gives one a visually-induced headache compared to thread-based forum discussion, or am I on this plank alone?
Usenet was
more threadedQuote from: formulanone on October 29, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
Hell, I first got on the web in 1995, and didn't enjoy reading Usenet or newsreaders at all.
Internet =/= web. Usenet was not at all web-based. If it was, I'm sorry you were stuck with DejaNews.
Quote from: formulanone on October 29, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
Too difficult for my eyes to read, cumbersome to wade though, and repetitious due to copious over-quoting. Slow as could be, limited search ability...it lost me very quickly.
Yep, you never had a proper newsreader or NNTP server. Must've used a web interface. A pre-Gmail web interface. Bummer, man.
Our point is that what's done was
already done better.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
[Modified to include one line that was present in a duplicate copy of this message, and the duplicate deleted. -S.]
I used and still use Usenet. There are two active groups that I still read. In some ways, I like the Usenet interface better, doubtless partly because I can choose it. However, I did read m.t.r briefly a couple of times and there was just too much volume. And there were a lot of off-topic posts and religious wars that never ended. The Usenet groups I still read have pretty much agreed to stop arguing politics, and now that there aren't a hoard of new readers every September that pretty much works out.
The ability to post pictures on the forum is very nice, though, especially for a forum like this one.
Do us all a favor and FUCK OFF!
Also: O-Creek Turnpike: I-144?
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 01:03:30 AM
Yep, you never had a proper newsreader or NNTP server. Must've used a web interface. A pre-Gmail web interface. Bummer, man.
Oh well. Never really knew any of that.
Found the FAQ (which was copied onto a web page) immensely helpful and interesting, though. :clap:
Quote from: formulanone on October 29, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
Is anybody else going to mention that actually reading Usenet gives one a visually-induced headache compared to thread-based forum discussion, or am I on this plank alone? Hell, I first got on the web in 1995, and didn't enjoy reading Usenet or newsreaders at all. Too difficult for my eyes to read, cumbersome to wade though, and repetitious due to copious over-quoting. Slow as could be, limited search ability...it lost me very quickly.
I used to read Usenet with Free Agent for PC. For the last several years, I've read it via a Web interface provided by my news server. I have used Thoth and Unison for Mac, but am not crazy about reading text-based newsgroups with either app. They are better for downloading binaries, IMHO.
If memory serves, the version of Thunderbird that was current when I was reading MTR had threads enabled by default for newsgroups. I started posting to MTR in the DejaNews days (2001) and it was threaded even back then. Part of the problem was that if you wanted to dodge the flamewars without constantly hitting "Ignore" whenever a thread went sour, you needed some form of rule-based filtration that worked on the content of posts, not just post author. Mark Roberts had such a setup and described it at some length in several posts in MTR, but it was based on piping MTR posts through a separate filtration engine on an Unix-based system. I don't think there was, at the time, a major Windows email and news client with similar capabilities (Thunderbird, for example, did not have content-based filtering, despite a bug request five years outstanding for it).
Quote from: kkt on October 30, 2013, 01:24:27 AM
The Usenet groups I still read have pretty much agreed to stop arguing politics, and now that there aren't a hoard of new readers every September that pretty much works out.
R.I.P. Endless September
1993-2013
Also: DE 1 = I-995?
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 30, 2013, 10:16:36 AM
They are better for downloading binaries, IMHO.
BINARIES ON USENET?? You take that back. Right now.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 10:38:00 AM
BINARIES ON USENET?? You take that back. Right now.
Between the first iteration of Napster and various Usenet MP3 binary groups, I managed to digitize just about all of my very extensive vinyl collection from the late 1970s through the late 1980s/early 1990s, when I started buying CDs exclusively.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 30, 2013, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 10:38:00 AM
BINARIES ON USENET?? You take that back. Right now.
Between the first iteration of Napster and various Usenet MP3 binary groups, I managed to digitize just about all of my very extensive vinyl collection from the late 1970s through the late 1980s/early 1990s, when I started buying CDs exclusively.
Instead of finding digitized copies online of stuff I had on vinyl, I just hooked a cable from my turntable up to my computer and digitized my vinyl that way.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 30, 2013, 03:02:49 PM
Instead of finding digitized copies online of stuff I had on vinyl, I just hooked a cable from my turntable up to my computer and digitized my vinyl that way.
There are frequently differences between the vinyl and CD releases. Downloading MP3s is replacement, not digitization. Trust me, I've spent a lot of time on the latter and it is no joke.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 30, 2013, 03:02:49 PM
Instead of finding digitized copies online of stuff I had on vinyl, I just hooked a cable from my turntable up to my computer and digitized my vinyl that way.
I've done that with a few albums that I couldn't find MP3s for, but it's time consuming. I used to record every album I had onto cassette to play in the car.
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 03:15:14 PM
There are frequently differences between the vinyl and CD releases. Downloading MP3s is replacement, not digitization. Trust me, I've spent a lot of time on the latter and it is no joke.
The most egregious example of this was how the original six or seven ZZ Top albums were remastered for CD. I prefer the old versions better; the new versions sound like the drums are in an echo chamber.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 30, 2013, 03:38:05 PM
The most egregious example of this was how the original six or seven ZZ Top albums were remastered for CD. I prefer the old versions better; the new versions sound like the drums are in an echo chamber.
Another reason why the Beatles remasters that finally dropped in 2009 were great - they didn't mess with the mix. No dynamic compression, no boosting the gain, just lots of painstakingly hard work in Pro Tools cleaning up the legendary sonic art of a band, of which half the members have passed away.
On that note: Rest in piece, Lou Reed.
If this was Usenet, this is where the thread could easily fork into an OT general discussion of audiophilia and whatnot, and with no need for moderators at all. Conversely, if someone stepped in and did it to this thread, it would kill what could turn into a very fun conversation dead in its tracks.
(tracks, get it, harharhar, ...)
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 03:46:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 30, 2013, 03:38:05 PM
The most egregious example of this was how the original six or seven ZZ Top albums were remastered for CD. I prefer the old versions better; the new versions sound like the drums are in an echo chamber.
Another reason why the Beatles remasters that finally dropped in 2009 were great - they didn't mess with the mix. No dynamic compression, no boosting the gain, just lots of painstakingly hard work in Pro Tools cleaning up the legendary sonic art of a band, of which half the members have passed away.
On that note: Rest in piece, Lou Reed.
If this was Usenet, this is where the thread could easily fork into an OT general discussion of audiophilia and whatnot, and with no need for moderators at all. Conversely, if someone stepped in and did it to this thread, it would kill what could turn into a very fun conversation dead in its tracks.
(tracks, get it, harharhar, ...)
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
If this were Usenet, this would've already been crossposted to several newsgroups including rec.music.rock, rec.music.1960s, rec.music.1970s, rec.music.1980s, and alt.fan.art-bell. Why? Because alt.fan.art-bell. :pan: :-D
Quote from: dlainhart on October 30, 2013, 03:46:42 PM
If this was Usenet, this is where the thread could easily fork into an OT general discussion of audiophilia and whatnot, and with no need for moderators at all. Conversely, if someone stepped in and did it to this thread, it would kill what could turn into a very fun conversation dead in its tracks.
Naah, It would just get split off into its own separate thread.
Cox discontinued newsgroups in June 2010 so I stopped using it. I could have gone thru Google Groups but figured it wasn't worth the hassle since people are mostly going to Web based message boards where I can find refuge from flamers and trolls.
My ISP discontinued their newsfeed about the same time. I found a newsfeed that doesn't charge. They welcome donations but don't bug you for them.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 31, 2013, 10:44:35 AM
Naah, It would just get split off into its own separate thread.
Where, by killing the momentum, it would wither on the vine.
That's a crucial difference in the dynamics of Usenet vs webboards.
Dylan T. Lainhart / Binghamton, N.Y.
After I split a thread, generally both threads gain more participation. This is because the originating thread is now back on track, and the new topic is more easily discoverable as its own thread. You might not expect to find a general discussion about, say, different specifications of Kansas route shields in a thread about a specific project in Nebraska, so if you were interested in Kansas route shields, you probably wouldn't find the discussion unless you happen to be interested enough in Nebraska road projects to look at that thread.
Thread splitting is a feature, not a bug.
Yeah, especially for those of us that don't read every forum post. If there's a conversation X in thread Y, and I'm not interested in subject Y, I won't know about conversation X. Likewise, if I was interested in thread Y, but not conversation X, I might stop reading thead Y altogether.
Meanwhile, on MTR today...
Title: Demographics of MTR
Author: Carl Rogers <postmaster@wwtl.info>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:10:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <0019aca7-f45c-422e-a232-a6b4ddd5b762@googlegroups.com>
A certain truth about roads is that politics created them. Why was the road created? For what industries or interests did the road benefit? Which cities were decided to be connected by a roadway? Based on your views, you'll decide what value to give a certain road.
Perhaps you will defend the importance of a road based on your views and values. Or perhaps ague for its improvement.
So without getting into battles of morality here, let's get to know the people who contribute here. Your views of roads will be shaped by your demographics. A few questions you can answer to us are:
(1) Where do you live? Urban or rural?
(2) In what field do you personally work?
(3) What are your political leanings?
To kick things off, let me answer that I'm a liberal Californian urbanite who works in the high tech industry. To me, it's all about getting to the destination quickly and efficiently, whether it be the next large city or coastal hotspot.
So how about you?
Let's set some ground rules. Hate speech is not allowed here. Please respect the views of others; a difference of opinion does not meet someone is attacking you. Do your part and ignore those who try to agitate and make personal arguments. Keep it high-level and keep it fun. Let's understand the perspectives and see what brings people together to discuss roads.
Cheers,
Carl Rogers
"Environment first, transportology second"
What happened to starting with "Hello Viatologists!"?
Quote from: vdeane on November 02, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
What happened to starting with "Hello Viatologists!"?
Maybe he finally grew up? ;)
I probably left that out of the copy-and-paste job.
QuoteLet's set some ground rules. Hate speech is not allowed here. Please respect the views of others; a difference of opinion does not meet someone is attacking you. Do your part and ignore those who try to agitate and make personal arguments. Keep it high-level and keep it fun. Let's understand the perspectives and see what brings people together to discuss roads.
Guessing this paragraph got slammed.
"this is hate speech"
"it's my view that you should shut up - please respect that"
"I try and ignore, but you won't stop posting"
"This isn't fun"
"I know what breaks people up from discussing roads: trolls like you"
etc
So did anyone figure out what the deal was with Tom from Ohio?
I looked back on my old MTR posts, from 98 until my goodbye post in late 2010, when Comcast forced me to switch to them as an ISP and as a result newsgroup access and hosting space for my web site disappeared. It was sad to pull the plug, but life moves on. There were several other Minnesota web sites, but I did kind of find a niche as far as abandoned stuff. I was always better at taking pictures than making decent looking html, and storage space was always a huge problem, so now that Flickr has an outrageous amounts of space I'm kind of gradually consolidating photos there and almost creating a North Star Highways II / North Star Signals type of place.
I think Mark Roberts (who I have on Facebook) John A Weeks III, and John Landsford are the three MTR notables that aren't on here (or at least don't post regularly under their names).
Quote from: Mdcastle on November 27, 2013, 10:42:37 PM
So did anyone figure out what the deal was with Tom from Ohio?
He did us all a favor and FUCKED OFF.
I can't say I miss it much. My ISP dropped usenet and I went to Eternal September which was a PIA for me. It had its moments and I met a lot of people through it, but the BS level got to be too much for me.
I went back a few weeks ago just to look around and and I wasn't impressed.
Quote from: Mdcastle on November 27, 2013, 10:42:37 PM
I think Mark Roberts (who I have on Facebook) John A Weeks III, and John Landsford are the three MTR notables that aren't on here (or at least don't post regularly under their names).
Ditto Scott Kozel and Larry Gross, who were constantly in tussles with each other and John Lansford.
I don't miss MTR that much, the signal-to-noise ratio was getting pretty bad. But what happened to some of my other favorite newsgroups clinched my decision to give up on Usenet -- one was abandoned by almost everyone with worthwhile posts, while a moderated group was apparently abandoned by its moderators so its posting volume went to zero.
Quote from: oscar on November 27, 2013, 11:02:03 PMQuote from: Mdcastle on November 27, 2013, 10:42:37 PMI think Mark Roberts (who I have on Facebook) John A Weeks III, and John Lansford are the three MTR notables that aren't on here (or at least don't post regularly under their names).
Ditto Scott Kozel and Larry Gross, who were constantly in tussles with each other and John Lansford.
I don't know about the latter two, but Scott Kozel is on here as "Beltway" though I don't think he has posted recently.
Mark Roberts seems to have a particular aversion to php-based message boards in general. Doubt we'll ever see him here.
If Lansford's still active on MTR, I wouldn't know. He went to my killfile a long time ago.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2013, 03:28:04 PMMark Roberts seems to have a particular aversion to php-based message boards in general. Doubt we'll ever see him here.
He normally set an "X-no-archive" header in his Usenet posts, omitting it infrequently as a deliberate courtesy to other specific regulars. There is no convenient way to achieve similar functionality with a php-based Web forum. (In principle it can be done by
wget wrapper script if the board is configured to allow users to delete their own posts, but on this board I expect management would notice quickly if a prolific user were pruning his or her own posts and take steps to prevent it.)
QuoteIf Lansford's still active on MTR, I wouldn't know. He went to my killfile a long time ago.
I haven't seen him on any of the infrequent occasions I have checked MTR through Google Groups. Randy Hersh, who of course continued to post to MTR long after I quit, told me in 2010 or 2011 that Lansford had mentioned something about a fight with prostate cancer. I assume it was successful since I haven't seen an obituary for him, but that sort of experience tends to prompt re-examination of life priorities and I suspect he may have concluded posting to MTR is not something he wishes to do any longer.
Long ago, when the concept of a "moderated MTR" was under discussion in 2003, Lansford along with Richard Moeur (Arizona DOT traffic engineer, not active in MTR since about 2004) was one of several MTR regulars who were very vocal in refusing to participate in a MTRM if it were set up. I assume they wouldn't surface on a php-based Web forum such as this for which moderation is one of the strongest selling points. As it happens, Scott Kozel was one of the most emphatic advocates of a MTRM, but has expressed unhappiness with moderating decisions on this board and has not posted in almost a full year (current last post date of 2012-12-11).
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2013, 03:28:04 PM
If Lansford's still active on MTR, I wouldn't know. He went to my killfile a long time ago.
I never had a problem with John Lansford, and found what he posted online frequently to be well-informed and interesting.
You would.
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2013, 01:50:33 PM
You would.
Some people can have some good information but be very hard to deal with on a personal level. You and he should take a class in people skills together.
Other people can have some good information but be very right-wing. They should go to FEMA to get reeducated.
While it's true that Lansford's radical left-wing political views played a part in my decision to plonk him, the biggest reasons were these:
1.) His projections, intended or otherwise, that his P.E. designation somehow made him superior to everyone else, and his insistence on referring to himself as a P.E. in every post.
2.) His belittling of other state DOTs, particularly Virginia (prompting many arguments with Scott Kozel) and Tennessee (for the way they built US 23, later known as I-26).
I was a frequent visitor to his I-26 construction pages, but he finally got to a point where he was insufferable, at least in my eyes.
I generally read M.T.R. through Newsguy's Web interface, but the other day, just for the heck of it, I called up M.T.R. in Thoth (a Usenet client for Mac), where I have no killfiles set, and saw very little activity. Only one poster who I know for sure is in my killfile on the Web interface had posted since the last time I read M.T.R. with Thoth.
Radical left wing? bahahaha
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2013, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 28, 2013, 03:28:04 PM
If Lansford's still active on MTR, I wouldn't know. He went to my killfile a long time ago.
I never had a problem with John Lansford, and found what he posted online frequently to be well-informed and interesting.
A cursory glance on Facebook brought up 5 John Lansfords.
Quote from: US71 on December 01, 2013, 07:00:23 PMA cursory glance on Facebook brought up 5 John Lansfords.
One of them (cat picture) is the John Lansford from MTR. "About" statement says "Worked somewhere in a cubical" [sic], so it sounds like he has retired.
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Radical left wing? bahahaha
He was as outspoken on the left as Kozel was on the right.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 01, 2013, 04:22:56 PM
While it's true that Lansford's radical left-wing political views played a part in my decision to plonk him, the biggest reasons were these:
1.) His projections, intended or otherwise, that his P.E. designation somehow made him superior to everyone else, and his insistence on referring to himself as a P.E. in every post.
Although I'm closer politically to John than Scott in more ways than not, I sided with Scott in most debates due to this fact. Acting holier-than-thou is a great way to be hated in Usenet.
Quote from: Steve on December 02, 2013, 08:18:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Radical left wing? bahahaha
He was as outspoken on the left as Kozel was on the right.
I must have changed more than I thought since my mtr days, or maybe his dickishness drowned out his political views, since I don't remember any of this. The main thing I remember about him is I-26, and four-lane freeway through the mountains hardly screams radical left wing.
Quote from: Steve on December 02, 2013, 08:18:13 AMQuote1.) His projections, intended or otherwise, that his P.E. designation somehow made him superior to everyone else, and his insistence on referring to himself as a P.E. in every post.
Although I'm closer politically to John than Scott in more ways than not, I sided with Scott in most debates due to this fact. Acting holier-than-thou is a great way to be hated in Usenet.
I think quoting "PE" at the end of his posts was his version of a bullshit filter. Observe that, with very few exceptions (notably Guy Olsen, a New Jersey licensed professional engineer who also signed his posts "PE"), Lansford hardly ever got into quarrels with fellow PEs or with other MTR regulars who had something in their background that allowed them to take the PE credential in their stride. I don't recall that he ever tried to play the PE card with me, but it was definitely something that caused Scott Kozel major irritation after Lansford stopped agreeing with him on the Fredericksburg western connector, which was the original root of the Gross/Kozel/Lansford arguments.
Quote from: NE2 on December 02, 2013, 08:31:34 AMI must have changed more than I thought since my mtr days, or maybe his dickishness drowned out his political views, since I don't remember any of this. The main thing I remember about him is I-26, and four-lane freeway through the mountains hardly screams radical left wing.
I think it is all to do with things that developed long after you left MTR. When the Great Recession hit from 2008 onward, Lansford was outspoken in attributing it to lax regulation of derivatives and credit-default swaps and in endorsing expansionary fiscal policies to keep GDP from going into free fall, all of which were positions embraced by the moderate left. In contradistinction, the MTR regulars who leaned right kept blaming the crisis on the Clinton-era mandate to expand homeownership among minorities and other low-income groups, and raising the specter of out-of-control debt growth.
Lansford has generally struck me as a well-informed but moderate and generally nonideological voter, who--notwithstanding the actual substance of the views he expresses--actively resents being identified as "liberal" and would probably vote Republican if there were any candidates left from the now nonexistent Javits wing of the party.
Quote from: NE2 on December 02, 2013, 08:31:34 AM
Quote from: Steve on December 02, 2013, 08:18:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Radical left wing? bahahaha
He was as outspoken on the left as Kozel was on the right.
I must have changed more than I thought since my mtr days, or maybe his dickishness drowned out his political views, since I don't remember any of this. The main thing I remember about him is I-26, and four-lane freeway through the mountains hardly screams radical left wing.
Actually, more to the point, Scott never got that that political on MTR, at least that I saw. I may have just ignored extended Lansford-Kozel rants, though.
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Radical left wing? bahahaha
Anyone who isn't Extreme Right is "Radical Left".
I think the main thing I remembered about him (and this is only if I'm thinking of the right person) is that if it was done in North Carolina, then that was the standard across the United States.
One issue in particular was the design speed of highways (which is typically 5 mph over the posted speed limit). He believed NC's standard was the universal standard, even though other states had higher or lower maximum speed limits. It may have been NC's standard to design roads with a 75 mph design speed (or 70mph or whatever based on their maximum at the time), but other states could have - and were - higher or lower.
I think federal funding was another issue - again, same thing - different states have different guidelines for whatever reason, but if it didn't agree with NC's guidelines, in his opinion it wasn't compliant.
He did work for NCDOT--I think probably for the entirety of his career--so I made allowances accordingly. I do remember him asserting at one stage that there was no such thing as a freeway in the US with a design speed of over 70 MPH. At the time I found this hard to believe, but after seeing plan set title sheets for literally thousands of freeway construction projects all over the US, I cannot remember a single one with a design speed of over 70 MPH. There might have been a handful with a 75-MPH design speed, but certainly none with a higher design speed. This is despite there being published curve superelevation tables or nomographs from various jurisdictions at various times for design speeds of up to 100 MPH (the Germans even went up to 170 km/h in the Reichsautobahn era).
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 03, 2013, 07:57:45 PM
There might have been a handful with a 75-MPH design speed, but certainly none with a higher design speed.
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ claims it was 75 south of New Brunswick.
Quote from: NE2 on December 04, 2013, 04:35:53 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 03, 2013, 07:57:45 PM
There might have been a handful with a 75-MPH design speed, but certainly none with a higher design speed.
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ claims it was 75 south of New Brunswick.
Probably true.
I heard, but never saw proof, that the AC Expressway had a 90 mph design speed.
I guess it could be true - between Rt. 42 & the GSP it's a very straight road with minimal curves. But I'm not wasting my time writing letters hoping for an 85 mph limit on the road.
Quote from: NE2 on December 04, 2013, 04:35:53 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 03, 2013, 07:57:45 PMThere might have been a handful with a 75-MPH design speed, but certainly none with a higher design speed.
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ claims it was 75 south of New Brunswick.
Quote from: De Leuw, Cather, & Co. on behalf of the New Jersey Turnpike AuthorityThe turnpike has been designed with a minimum radius on main roadways of 10,000 feet. With such generous curves and a design speed of 75 miles per hour, transition curves and super-elevation are both unnecessary. Tangent lengths are such as to avoid too frequent curves on one hand and monotonous alignment on the other.
Source for the above is New Jersey Turnpike Authority,
Engineering studies and estimates: New Jersey Turnpike South Section, September 1949.
I don't know if this is a title sheet design speed in the FAPG 630(b) Supplement sense, though.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 03, 2013, 07:57:45 PMThis is despite there being published curve superelevation tables or nomographs from various jurisdictions at various times for design speeds of up to 100 MPH (the Germans even went up to 170 km/h in the Reichsautobahn era).
I-280 in California and I-55 in Illinois come to mind offhand as vague recollections of intentional high-speed curves.