No, not Mini-Me, but close. How common are these smaller versions of signs on the road? These are in the median (if you can call it that) of Kirk Road in Kane County, and the signs are maybe 1/3rd the size of the standard ones.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_3685_zps8b2e1588.jpg&hash=ec156dafb9c44d28ad4a542de5fd15aed6189641) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_3685_zps8b2e1588.jpg.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_3686_zps5fe16bc3.jpg&hash=471b3457315722615eef5c584929bb13ed1d637f) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_3686_zps5fe16bc3.jpg.html)
I'm surprised anyone notices those, if they go by them at even a moderate speed.
I've seen some tiny speed limit signs (on reeeaaly short posts) in a county east of Dallas, should have snapped a couple with my camera, oh well, maybe next time. Oh, and for those not into wrong fonts--they're also arial (or helvetica)!
MUTCD tells you the minimum allowable size for that type of road, and these are too small for that. I am thinking that with the narrow median, the compliant signs were getting ht and damaged.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FA1IFamzl.jpg&hash=a21c7e7153ce24cfaf0744f0e3d18b0f32ff3006) (http://i.imgur.com/A1IFamz.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0zbWvu8l.jpg&hash=029308eaf5ef2e89fb8155b03eed00c9eeca6221) (http://i.imgur.com/0zbWvu8.jpg)
Those little spotches on the right-hand side? That's the County Route number. At least in the former instance, there is a "JCT CR 579" sign beforehand.
Dallas very frequently uses 18x18 DO NOT ENTER signs, even where space is not limited.
Crossroads installed 12x18 speed limit signs on Naylor Rd in the mid-2000's.
I need the Hubble Telescope to see those country route shields.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3086%2F2626563973_3f3f51ebcd_z_d.jpg&hash=65593b84a813e6a5be1b860d039138de2a9e075c)
The MUTCD does have a narrow Keep Right sign (R4-7c) (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2b.htm#section2B32) for median applications like this, but it looks like instead of that, a normally-proportioned but too-small sign was used.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmutcd.fhwa.dot.gov%2Fhtm%2F2009%2Fimages%2Ffig2b_10.gif&hash=da46d79e94a347907c8e24ff38616e38b88b5299)
Quote from: Mr. Matté on November 17, 2013, 06:46:15 PM
<images removed>
Those little spotches on the right-hand side? That's the County Route number. At least in the former instance, there is a "JCT CR 579" sign beforehand.
This seems to be a Mercer County thing, since this is how they are
supposed to look:
http://goo.gl/maps/ec44h
Quote from: Zeffy on November 18, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on November 17, 2013, 06:46:15 PM
<images removed>
Those little spotches on the right-hand side? That's the County Route number. At least in the former instance, there is a "JCT CR 579" sign beforehand.
This seems to be a Mercer County thing, since this is how they are supposed to look:
http://goo.gl/maps/ec44h
Well, no, Somerset uses Clearview. This (http://i.imgur.com/LBxHA6y.jpg) is a good installation.
Well, no. Somerset County doesn't always use Clearview. Here's some non Clearview examples:
http://goo.gl/maps/wVvIc
http://goo.gl/maps/TpQy5
http://goo.gl/maps/tkEJK
And here's another mini County Route shield on the intersection with US 206: http://goo.gl/maps/1oT1O
Peoria, IL:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formulanone.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2FToInt74signSmall-StoplightComparison.jpg&hash=1227022b08a4450e7375acba981fcd24c21f8c1e)
Also, some of the US 30 shields on top of the mile markers near Cedar Rapids, IA (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=IA19610301) are vaguely bigger than postage stamps.
There's a small US 56 near Kansas City that's about the size of a No Parking sign.
Lots of smaller route markers are used in the northwestern part of Virginia (from the Covington area stretching north toward Strasburg).
At least in north Louisiana, the DOTD is starting to replace their control city directional/mileage signs & the recreational direction signs with signs so small, you strain your eyes trying to read them. :wow: :banghead: The older signs they replace usually required 2 sign posts, where the new ones only need 1.
Just passed a mini I-90 assembly today going near Exit 104 at Orange Street. I took a quick glance at it and went "What the hell? :?" I don't know who put that there, but technically, for this kind of roadway, you're supposed to place a 36x36 expressway type of Interstate shield, not 18x18. That is for a rural or side arterial setting.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi917.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad16%2FBJFRacing01%2FCameraDownloads5022_zps299a205c.jpg&hash=be198b69d0eb82850eb2c3400d2ad7f87cf6a364) (http://s917.photobucket.com/user/BJFRacing01/media/CameraDownloads5022_zps299a205c.jpg.html)
Here is "mini I-90" coming from the Orange Street on-ramp to westbound I-90.
Another one dealing with Bear Tavern Road near the ramps to I-95:
http://goo.gl/maps/rH8JI
Some smaller versions of stop and yield signs have been placed along Industrial Road in Florence, KY. I'll grab some snapshots tomorrow.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ssoworld.org%2Fpics%2Fmini-10.jpg&hash=0158f107afd8256a942b0c12b6c7f26443410d93)
This is likely a product of Fontana and not CalTrans.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2013, 03:10:26 PM
Lots of smaller route markers are used in the northwestern part of Virginia (from the Covington area stretching north toward Strasburg).
Here are some examples. In a couple of them, you can see the standard 24 x 24 sign for comparison purposes:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8345%2F8222081970_3caaac4b6f.jpg&hash=0aa7b58935f336d8f23abd7e8c27a8d6d9a7d48f)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8484%2F8221005565_8b31b5c763.jpg&hash=cd82883e920658d4ca196f3bff1b47d2af1395fd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8069%2F8222080182_4a2719da25.jpg&hash=2426ea2e9cdfd6a7d3a4bd6d1ac8c20aa33a1f38) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hbelkins/8222080182)
Quote from: hbelkins on December 02, 2013, 11:06:18 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8484%2F8221005565_8b31b5c763.jpg&hash=cd82883e920658d4ca196f3bff1b47d2af1395fd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8069%2F8222080182_4a2719da25.jpg&hash=2426ea2e9cdfd6a7d3a4bd6d1ac8c20aa33a1f38) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hbelkins/8222080182)
Are those Series B numerals being used in those US shields?
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 02, 2013, 11:06:18 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 19, 2013, 03:10:26 PM
Lots of smaller route markers are used in the northwestern part of Virginia (from the Covington area stretching north toward Strasburg).
Here are some examples. In a couple of them, you can see the standard 24 x 24 sign for comparison purposes:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8345%2F8222081970_3caaac4b6f.jpg&hash=0aa7b58935f336d8f23abd7e8c27a8d6d9a7d48f)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8484%2F8221005565_8b31b5c763.jpg&hash=cd82883e920658d4ca196f3bff1b47d2af1395fd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8069%2F8222080182_4a2719da25.jpg&hash=2426ea2e9cdfd6a7d3a4bd6d1ac8c20aa33a1f38) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hbelkins/8222080182)
The mini signs are also scattered around other areas of Virginia, mostly rural ones, but they do sometimes appear in other areas, such as school entrances like this one in Stafford County:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%2F6171%2F6177168744_075919fba5_z.jpg&hash=10caebbe41ad44c2a1533cfcaf64c85fa936034d)
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
Fortunately, I did not receive a ticket when I was there, but as tiny as those signs were, I could see someone easily missing the sign and getting zapped for it. The photo enforced zones are generally 30mph zones along arterial and collector roadways. They seem to have been put in sometime earlier this year, as StreetView imagery from September 2012 shows no evidence of it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2013, 06:49:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.
The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be. "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.
It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2013, 06:49:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.
The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be. "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.
It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.
Take a photograph of the sign with a tape measure or ruler in the photograph. Take measurements of the sign. Then present the evidence with the MUTCD, the appropriate state MUTCD supplement (if applicable), or the state MUTCD 9if applicable).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 08:27:27 AM
The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be. "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.
It would be interesting to see one of these speed limit signs that is claimed to be undersized...to try to determine if it's truly undersized.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part2/part2b.htm#table2B01
Quote
Sign or Plaque | Sign Designation | Section | Conventional Road (Single Lane / Multilane) | Freeway | Expressway | Minimum | Oversized |
Speed Limit | R2-1 | 2B.13 | 24 x 30* SINGLE 30 x 36 MULTI | 36 x 48 | 48 x 60 | 18 x 24* | 30 x 36 |
So, if your measurement of any speed limit sign turned out to be less than 18 x 24, than you
should have a valid argument that would overturn any violations that occurred due to that speed limit sign being not up to MUTCD standards.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 08:27:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2013, 06:49:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 08, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on December 05, 2013, 01:59:52 AM
Speed limit signs in Annapolis, MD. Holy crap, are those things tiny. And they have "school zones" with photo enforcement everywhere. It's like they don't want you to know what the speed limit is, so you'll cough up some cash.
If you get a ticket, you might be able to get it tossed out for MUTCD non-compliance.
I doubt a municipal judge would care about that whole MUTCD thingimajigger, especially if the defendant doesn't have a LOT of technical proof regrading the proper signage for that street based on the speed limit.
What technical proof do you need? The MUTCD says in its preface that it is the authoritative document covering signage standards in the United States, and there are tables that spell out how big each sign is required to be at various speeds.
The defendent - the one who was speeding - would have to state what the current speed limit sign size is, and show that table to the judge to reveal what the proper sized sign should be. "The speed limit sign is too small" doesn't cut it.
Well, of course. I've never done it before, and one of the lawyers on this forum (I am not one of course) might correct me, but I think that's how you typically present evidence like that. You don't just make an assertion without backing it up.
I don't think you could say something needed "a lot of technical proof" unless your case required having someone like Steve to show up and testify on your behalf as an expert witness. Any layman could print off the MUTCD and make it a part of a traffic case if they did a minimal amount of research to prepare.
Now, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2013, 03:44:44 PMNow, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.
For the longest time, my hometown of Marblehead, MA only had speed limit signs posted along the Causeway (Ocean Ave.) to Marblehead Neck. Everywhere else, the town viewed as the state-defined thickly-settled district and never posted any speed limit signs; the state-defined thickly-settled limit is 30 mph.
Over time, and when one stretch of roadway (MA 129/Atlantic Ave.) received a higher 35 mph posted limit; the town eventually posted standard, but small,
SPEED LIMIT 30 signs at each roadway just after the town line/border. The reasoning for the posted-30 signs at the town entrances was
likely due to drivers getting ticketed, challenging their tickets in court, and getting their charges/fines dismissed. Since there are no courthouses in Marblehead, the cases are handled in neighboring Salem; a judge might be more likely to toss out a ticket if there's no sign present... especially if the motorist is from out-of-state (where implied speed limits differ).
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 11, 2013, 04:20:43 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2013, 03:44:44 PMNow, if you live in a state with an absolute speed law, this may not work; they could argue "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but I would hope that most judges would take a dim view to that, considering it is difficult to know what the speed limit is in any given area with no proper signage.
For the longest time, my hometown of Marblehead, MA only had speed limit signs posted along the Causeway (Ocean Ave.) to Marblehead Neck. Everywhere else, the town viewed as the state-defined thickly-settled district and never posted any speed limit signs; the state-defined thickly-settled limit is 30 mph.
Over time, and when one stretch of roadway (MA 129/Atlantic Ave.) received a higher 35 mph posted limit; the town eventually posted standard, but small, SPEED LIMIT 30 signs at each roadway just after the town line/border. The reasoning for the posted-30 signs at the town entrances was likely due to drivers getting ticketed, challenging their tickets in court, and getting their charges/fines dismissed. Since there are no courthouses in Marblehead, the cases are handled in neighboring Salem; a judge might be more likely to toss out a ticket if there's no sign present... especially if the motorist is from out-of-state (where implied speed limits differ).
If the Town posted these 30 mph signs without an approved special speed regulation to back them up, then the speed limit is invalid - even if it happens to match the prima-facie limit for the roadway in question. This is because, under Massachusetts General Laws, posted limits and prima-facie limits are treated differently. A posted limit (MGL Chapter 90, section 18) is presumed to be based on a valid speed regulation and, thus, is automatically legal, whereas, for a prima-facie limit (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), the officer must track the offending vehicle for a certain distance.
Over the years, I've heard multiple stories where either the citing officer wrote up a prima-facie violation under Chapter 90, Section 18 (instead of Section 17), or where cities and towns have tried to enforce posted speed limits that did not have an approved special speed regulation to back up the signs.
Quote from: roadman on December 11, 2013, 05:01:18 PMIf the Town posted these 30 mph signs without an approved special speed regulation to back them up, then the speed limit is invalid - even if it happens to match the prima-facie limit for the roadway in question.
Personally, I have no idea regarding the
behind-the-scenes effort regarding those 30 mph signs and my use of the word
likely in reference to tickets getting dismissed was personal speculation. The signs in question were erected a year or two after I moved out of the Bay State in 1990; so I wasn't following the story as closely then.
OTOH, the speed zoning of Atlantic Ave. (for both the MA 129 and the unnumbered sections) I do remember reading the town meetings initiatives and they're petitioning for an approved special speed regulation; such happened in 1989-1990. The speed limit was raised to 35 mph for most of the MA 129 section but lowered to 20 (or 25) mph for the downtown Marblehead portion.
Nonetheless, even if Marblehead posted those 30 mph speed limit signs without special approval; not many motorists who get pulled over (for doing 40 or above)
are going to know that and they would be pretty hard-pressed to prove that 40+ mph in Marblehead is reasonable & proper.
SPEED LIMIT 30 sign along MA 114/Lafayette St. eastbound just past the Salem/Marblehead border, note the small size (Marblehead
usually does not like to post large signs).
http://goo.gl/maps/jdzkd (http://goo.gl/maps/jdzkd)
Points well taken PHLBOS. However, if a motorist is cited under MGL 90-18 (on the basis that signs are posted), they would only need to prove that there was no legal regulation to back up the posting of the sign. Whether or not they were travelling at a "reasonable or proper" speed is only an issue if the speeding ticket also came with a reckless driving charge (in Mass. speeding is a civil offense, but reckless driving is a criminal one).