AARoads Forum

N.Y. Times: Clues but No Full Account of Order That Turned a New Jersey Town Into a Parking Lot (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/10/nyregion/clues-but-no-full-account-of-order-that-turned-a-new-jersey-town-into-a-parking-lot.html)

QuoteIt would seem a minor whodunit for a small suburb: On the first day of school in September, three access lanes leading from Fort Lee, N.J., streets to the George Washington Bridge were unexpectedly and mysteriously shut down. Cars backed up, the town turned into a parking lot, half-hour bridge commutes stretched into four hours, buses and children were late for school, and emergency workers could not respond quickly to the day's events, which included a missing toddler, a cardiac arrest and a car driving into a building.

QuoteBut the George Washington Bridge is the world's busiest, and New Jersey is led by one of the nation's most pugnacious and prominent politicians, Gov. Chris Christie – who also happens to appoint the people who control the bridge.

QuoteSo the unfolding story of the lane closings has become something of a cause célèbre, resulting in a hearing before the New Jersey Legislature on Monday, as well as a window into the proudly aggressive and often secretive dealings of Mr. Christie's team.

This was the closure of Martha Washington Way, which was indeed done as a study, despite the insistence of the conspiracy-minded editorial author. (This does not have the tone of an actual news article, despite nothing indicating otherwise.) Actually living in northeast NJ, I've heard enough about this study, which was supposed to go on longer but was cancelled due to results like this. There was more than 3 days' notice given, too. It seems like the author is conveniently ignoring any facts or quotes that don't fit the tone of the editorial.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
This was the closure of Martha Washington Way, which was indeed done as a study, despite the insistence of the conspiracy-minded editorial author.

Got a citation for that? I wouldn't expect the WSJ to buy into a liberal conspiracy theory: http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2013/11/13/port-officials-say-little-about-septembers-george-washington-bridge-lane-closures/

From the headline it sounds like the article is about tearing down a town to build a parking lot. Even after the first few lines I thought "oh, the roads were shut down; then, when they were reopened a town was no longer there". Would have been a more interesting story, though, of course turning Fort Lee into a parking lot is a bit much. Maybe a smaller town.

Maybe it was just turned into a fort.

Quote from: NE2 on December 10, 2013, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
This was the closure of Martha Washington Way, which was indeed done as a study, despite the insistence of the conspiracy-minded editorial author.

Got a citation for that? I wouldn't expect the WSJ to buy into a liberal conspiracy theory: http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2013/11/13/port-officials-say-little-about-septembers-george-washington-bridge-lane-closures/

Um, I work in the industry. The reason I don't trifle with Wiki is because they require documentation for everything, a lot of which is merely things I have come across, and know to be factual, but cannot produce proof (in some cases, without going thousands of miles back where I came from).

I'm not asking for Wikipedia. I simply want to know more about this. It's better than Bengoatse.

Yesterday's Star-Ledger mentioned it was "for a study" as well for what I remember, they also want the PA official ousted.

N.Y. Times: Port Authority Investigating New Jersey Lane Closings (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/11/nyregion/port-authority-investigating-new-jersey-lane-closings.html)

QuoteThe inspector general of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey opened an investigation on Tuesday into the sudden closing of three lanes on the New Jersey side of the George Washington Bridge in September, which caused huge traffic backups, and the actions of a close associate of Gov. Chris Christie who ordered the shutdown.

QuoteOfficials in Fort Lee, N.J., which turned into a parking lot when local access lanes to the bridge were closed on the first day of school, have charged that the closings were retaliation against the borough's mayor, a Democrat who had declined to endorse Mr. Christie, a Republican, for re-election.

QuoteMichael Nestor, the deputy inspector general and director of investigations at the Port Authority, confirmed the inquiry, and another official with knowledge of the matter said it would seek to determine whether any crimes had been committed, and whether there was any "abuse of authority"  or "gross mismanagement."

QuoteAt a legislative hearing in Trenton on Monday, two Port Authority employees said that they were told to close the lanes by David Wildstein, a high school classmate of Mr. Christie's and a former political blogger who worked as director of interstate capital projects; Mr. Christie's chief appointee at the authority created the position for him.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2013, 09:25:17 AM

QuoteAt a legislative hearing in Trenton on Monday, two Port Authority employees said that they were told to close the lanes by David Wildstein, a high school classmate of Mr. Christie's and a former political blogger who worked as director of interstate capital projects; Mr. Christie's chief appointee at the authority created the position for him.

This is what happens when you get together in high school...

"I dare you to unsnap Susie's bra"

"I double dare you to put a pushpin on Mr. Myers seat"

"I double dog dare you to chug a beer"

"I triple dog dare you with a cherry on top to close an entire roadway, clogging up half of North Jersey"

Oh dude...you are ON!!!

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 10:40:16 AM
"I triple dog dare you with a cherry on top to close an entire roadway, clogging up half of North Jersey"

Oh dude...you are ON!!!

Good analogy, but I still don't see what the point of this was.  Given the traffic volumes involved, it is far too easy for the press to eventually figure out what was going on, and finger the person (or persons) responsible.  And having just won a big re-election victory, I am sure that the media would love to bring Chris Christie down a notch or two.

Anybody that would engage in this sort of stuff probably ... needs to be sent back to high school for some remedial lessons.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
This was the closure of Martha Washington Way, which was indeed done as a study, despite the insistence of the conspiracy-minded editorial author.

Has anyone at the Port Authority ever heard of computer simulation of traffic?  Seems (to me) a much better way and (non-destructive) method to examine the impacts of such a closure.

Even if the Port Authority does not have anyone on-staff that can collect the data and calibrate a simulation model, there are plenty of engineering consultants that can do this sort of work.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
(This does not have the tone of an actual news article, despite nothing indicating otherwise.) Actually living in northeast NJ, I've heard enough about this study, which was supposed to go on longer but was cancelled due to results like this. There was more than 3 days' notice given, too. It seems like the author is conveniently ignoring any facts or quotes that don't fit the tone of the editorial.

As I suggested above, I am sure that most reporters covering New Jersey would love to bring Gov. Chris Christie down a notch or two.  Even if he is entirely without blame.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2013, 11:45:24 AM

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
This was the closure of Martha Washington Way, which was indeed done as a study, despite the insistence of the conspiracy-minded editorial author.

Has anyone at the Port Authority ever heard of computer simulation of traffic?  Seems (to me) a much better way (and non-destructive) method to examine the impacts of such a closure.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
(This does not have the tone of an actual news article, despite nothing indicating otherwise.) Actually living in northeast NJ, I've heard enough about this study, which was supposed to go on longer but was cancelled due to results like this. There was more than 3 days' notice given, too. It seems like the author is conveniently ignoring any facts or quotes that don't fit the tone of the editorial.

As I suggested above, I am sure that most reporters covering New Jersey would love to bring Gov. Chris Christie down a notch or two.  Even if he is entirely without blame.

The Star Ledger (nj.com) tries to find Christie at fault for just about everything.

Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
The Star Ledger (nj.com) tries to find Christie at fault for just about everything.

Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

"They" being the editorial board in this case, not the news department.

Quote from: Mr. Matté on December 11, 2013, 01:35:50 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
The Star Ledger (nj.com) tries to find Christie at fault for just about everything.

Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

"They" being the editorial board in this case, not the news department.

Read their stories on a daily basis.  "They" means everyone.

And to point it out as well: The paper endorsed Christie for re-election. And then basically printed what sounded like an apology for doing so.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

How dare they? That's like blaming Bush for Katrina when everyone knows it's the liberals who control the weather.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
The Star Ledger (nj.com) tries to find Christie at fault for just about everything.

Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

I did not read that at all.  My take is that they got after Christie for not setting up a New Jersey-specific Web site to handle ACA processing for Garden State residents, leaving them to deal with the troubled federal site.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2013, 03:46:22 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
The Star Ledger (nj.com) tries to find Christie at fault for just about everything.

Heck, they tied the failing Obamacare website to Christie: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/09/christies_obamacare_fiasco_edi.html

I did not read that at all.  My take is that they got after Christie for not setting up a New Jersey-specific Web site to handle ACA processing for Garden State residents, leaving them to deal with the troubled federal site.

Right...and yes, that's what it said.  But just imagine if the situation was reversed...actually, forget that.  Just imagine if Christie set up a website...Any problems would be magnified.  Daily readers of the website/paper, as one will note in the comment section, are very familiar with the antics of the newspaper company.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 03:56:45 PM
Just imagine if Christie set up a website...Any problems would be magnified.

[citation needed]

Quote from: NE2 on December 11, 2013, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 03:56:45 PM
Just imagine if Christie set up a website...Any problems would be magnified.

[citation needed]

Here you go:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0

QuoteTerms & Conditions:

Quote-The messages express the views of the author of the message

(Attempting to get back on topic)
I can confirm that this was done as a study. Any political implications about why it was studied are an exercise best left to editorials. It may not have been done thoroughly/properly, though, i.e. as someone mentioned, involving a thorough traffic engineering study. I haven't seen any materials related to the study or any of the traffic volumes involved, so as a traffic engineer I have to withhold any further comment.

Quote from: NE2 on December 11, 2013, 12:29:41 AM
I'm not asking for Wikipedia. I simply want to know more about this. It's better than Bengoatse.

Since, after exhaustive research, you seem to be the only one that can;  could you please define Bengoatse?

Quote from: _Simon on December 11, 2013, 09:26:20 PM
could you please define Bengoatse?

A gaping hole in Alanlandian embassy security that led to the murders of four goats.

This guys presidential bid is going to be legendary.  I can't wait to watch. 

Dem NJ assemblyman complaining about a culture of fear at the port authority?  Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. 

Two outbound lanes were closed tonight on the upper level...traffic was jammed on the entire cross Bronx and up the New England thruway to at least the hutch exit in co-op city where I hopped off.  It almost looked like a truck only freeway that was stopped dead. 

Quote from: Steve on December 11, 2013, 07:28:51 PM
It may not have been done thoroughly/properly, though, i.e. as someone mentioned, involving a thorough traffic engineering study.

At least with the public-sector agencies I deal with, closing an access ramp as part of any study would not be allowed - by policy.

Quote from: Steve on December 11, 2013, 07:28:51 PM
I haven't seen any materials related to the study or any of the traffic volumes involved, so as a traffic engineer I have to withhold any further comment.

If a report is released at some point, it would likely make for interesting reading.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 11, 2013, 11:35:52 PM

Quote from: Steve on December 11, 2013, 07:28:51 PM
It may not have been done thoroughly/properly, though, i.e. as someone mentioned, involving a thorough traffic engineering study.

At least with the public-sector agencies I deal with, closing an access ramp as part of any study would not be allowed - by policy.

Not in Jersey!

(See also: http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/press/2012/073012.shtm )

Quote from: Mr. Matté on December 12, 2013, 07:00:16 AM

Not in Jersey!

(See also: http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/press/2012/073012.shtm )

Relevant words (with emphasis added):

QuoteNJDOT has collected traffic volume and trip-time data at numerous locations in Princeton Township, Princeton Borough, West Windsor and Plainsboro prior to the trial and will continue to do so during the trial to evaluate the impacts of the restrictions.

QuoteAfter the conclusion of the trial, NJDOT will meet with stakeholders to present its findings as to whether the restrictions have proven to be effective in reducing Route 1 congestion and to discuss the extent of any secondary impacts on local streets and roads.

It sounds like NJDOT spent some time performing data collection and analysis and number crunching before reaching a decision to close some "U" turns and deny left turns (what, no jughandles?).

In the case of Rt. 1 there, they're trying to do everything but the most obvious solution (in my mind).  Seal off all the median openings.  Take out the traffic lights.  Built a few overpasses to allow for u-turns.  Instead, they keep coming up with all these plans to better the flow of traffic, but ultimately, it leaves the same number of intersections and traffic lights in place.

That experiment you linked was killed a few weeks before the end of the scheduled trial period: http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/press/2012/101312.shtm. 

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 12, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
In the case of Rt. 1 there, they're trying to do everything but the most obvious solution (in my mind).  Seal off all the median openings.  Take out the traffic lights.  Built a few overpasses to allow for u-turns.  Instead, they keep coming up with all these plans to better the flow of traffic, but ultimately, it leaves the same number of intersections and traffic lights in place.

That experiment you linked was killed a few weeks before the end of the scheduled trial period: http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/press/2012/101312.shtm. 

They don't have the money for overpasses. Also, you can't do that to a road like CR 526/571 where there's so much east-west traffic that needs to get through, it would just kill US 1. They've been trying to solve Penns Neck for decades, and they almost had it a few years ago, but just couldn't fund it. (Route 3/46 split is still on the table, and should have been done 7 years ago.)

The Penn's Neck Area EIS documents are still online: http://policy.rutgers.edu/vtc/pennsneckareaeis/

The preferred alternative involves interchanges.

Robert Moses tore down a ferry dock while the ferry was still in operation, but the head of the port authority can't close some roads for a few fucking hours???  The media needs to stop humoring such bullshit.  Chris Christie is not only entitled to cause a traffic jams at-will, but I am encouraging him to do so every day outside the home of whoever the hell wrote this article.

And yes I know the whole story is nonsense.

Robert Moses was a bigger arsehole than Christie. Discuss.

Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2013, 08:51:22 PM
Robert Moses was a bigger arsehole than Christie. Discuss.

NO

Quote from: _Simon on December 18, 2013, 08:41:15 PM
Robert Moses tore down a ferry dock while the ferry was still in operation, but the head of the port authority can't close some roads for a few fucking hours???  The media needs to stop humoring such bullshit.  Chris Christie is not only entitled to cause a traffic jams at-will, but I am encouraging him to do so every day outside the home of whoever the hell wrote this article.

And yes I know the whole story is nonsense.

There's a difference between tearing something down for construction and closing something for a "study".  There's also a difference between the 1940s and the 2010s.

Moses would have had the entire bridge plaza rebuilt overnight AND it would have had diaper changing tables for mothers. 

Moses would have also removed the access from poor communities to those diaper changing tables.

Quote from: NE2 on December 19, 2013, 10:05:04 PM
Moses would have also removed the access from poor communities to those diaper changing tables.

The poor only cause traffic jams and are under-insured to begin with.  They should stay in the cookie-cutter housing projects Moses built for them.  The swimming pools in their neighborhoods have just the right temperature water.

Moses would part the Hudson River, leave it that way so his later namesake would just replace the Tappan Zee at grade.

Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on December 19, 2013, 10:58:05 PM
Moses would part the Hudson River, leave it that way so his later namesake would just replace the Tappan Zee at grade.

I wonder if Moses was on board with the proposal to pave the East River and put freeways and an airport on it.

Quote from: Steve on December 19, 2013, 10:59:10 PM
I wonder if Moses was on board with the proposal to pave the East River and put freeways and an airport on it.

They wanted to do that on the West Side (http://books.google.com/books?id=iUgEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=Life%20Magazine%201946%20airport&pg=PA76#v=onepage&q=Life%20Magazine%201946%20airport&f=false).

Heck this guy (http://manhattanairport.org/) wants to turn Central Park into one! (apparently he hasn't figured out that Queens is part of New York City)

I think we are forgetting that fort lee is not a poor community. It has a median income of 66k and an average house price of 337k which is about average for NJ. I am surprised they are not snotty nimbys that want to close the ramp in favor of a green space or a bike rack. 

Great female to male ratio at 54 females to 46 males for all you young bachelors on NE2's tight budget that cannot afford manhattan or Hoboken. 

Emails link top Christie aide to GWB lane-closing controversy (http://www.northjersey.com/news/christie_kelly_bridge_lane_closures_emails.html)

Quote from: HandsomeRob on January 08, 2014, 10:57:16 AM
Emails link top Christie aide to GWB lane-closing controversy (http://www.northjersey.com/news/christie_kelly_bridge_lane_closures_emails.html)

N.Y. Times also picked this report up (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/09/nyregion/christie-aide-tied-to-bridge-lane-closings.html).  As did the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/01/08/e-mails-suggest-top-christie-aide-used-lane-closures-for-retribution/?hpid=z3).

This is pretty damning (from the NYT):

QuoteBut the emails show that Bridget Anne Kelly, a deputy chief of staff in Mr. Christie's office, gave a signal to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to close the lanes about two weeks before the closings occurred.

Quote"Time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee,"  she emailed David Wildstein, Mr. Christie's close friend from high school, and one of his appointees at the Port Authority, which controls the bridge.

QuoteAfter the emails were released on Wednesday, Mr. Christie canceled his one public event for the day, which had been billed as an announcement of progress in the recovery from Hurricane Sandy.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 08, 2014, 11:39:03 AM

Quote from: HandsomeRob on January 08, 2014, 10:57:16 AM
Emails link top Christie aide to GWB lane-closing controversy (http://www.northjersey.com/news/christie_kelly_bridge_lane_closures_emails.html)

N.Y. Times also picked this report up (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/09/nyregion/christie-aide-tied-to-bridge-lane-closings.html).  As did the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/01/08/e-mails-suggest-top-christie-aide-used-lane-closures-for-retribution/?hpid=z3).

This is pretty damning (from the NYT):

QuoteBut the emails show that Bridget Anne Kelly, a deputy chief of staff in Mr. Christie's office, gave a signal to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to close the lanes about two weeks before the closings occurred.

Quote"Time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee,"  she emailed David Wildstein, Mr. Christie's close friend from high school, and one of his appointees at the Port Authority, which controls the bridge.

QuoteAfter the emails were released on Wednesday, Mr. Christie canceled his one public event for the day, which had been billed as an announcement of progress in the recovery from Hurricane Sandy.

It's on the front page of CNN.com now.

Looks like it's time for some resignations and folks 'returning to the private sector'.

It's quite possible the governor didn't know about it.  I could send emails all day and never inform my supervisor about what I'm sending. 

unfortunately, anytime anything is remotely connected to the governor, it makes it sound like he is the guilty party. 

We'll see if Christie has any heads on pikes outside the capitol building tomorrow.

:spin:
(head rolling animatroid)

Well, I think there should be a shakeup at the Port Authority. What about those on the NY side? Did no one know? Clearly any Kind of "study" that would cause such an impact would have been known by top brass at Port Authority as well as the NY side. Clearly those who pulled this stunt need to go. I would hate to be a traffic engineer who signed and sealed this "traffic study...."

Edited to add:
Just to clarify, even the best traffic engineer can make a mistake, but if dangerous gridlock resulted on Day 1, the study should have been terminated immediately. But it sounds as if this wasn't really even a real traffic engineering study, that politician aides without the authority to conduct such studies decided to practice engineering without a license. I would have to say that i would be shocked if there were an actual study document, laying out the experiment, that had no provision for terminating the study if gridlock resulted. At the very least, they should have tried closing 1 lane instead of 2, and if that had okay results, then go down to one lane and see what happens. But from 3 to 1 at a heavily used ramp with no means for terminating the experiment if it fails....something is fishy. I doubt any engineer with experience would have thought this would be a good idea.

Just heard another story on the news:

-Some of the most affected by the unnecessary gridlock were school students who couldn't get to school because of traffic.

-A woman passed away because an ambulance couldn't get to someone having a medical emergency fast enough, due to gridlock. Perhaps some Christie aides and Port Authority officials would like to add manslaughter charges to their resumes when they look for new jobs?

Everything I've heard indicates there is nothing to document that any type of study was conducted.

 I hope he did it and I hope he admits to doing it and does it again. I hope he goes on Good Morning America and says "I'll close any damn road I want, I'm the governor of New Jersey.".   If the people in Fort Lee didn't like traffic, they wouldn't be living there .. in between 95, 1, 9, 46, 4, 5, 63, 67, 9W, and the Palisades parkway.  There isn't a building in that town that doesn't have a view of the highway, they should have looked out the window before leaving the house (or moving in).

Quote from: mtantillo on January 08, 2014, 08:31:45 PM
Edited to add:
Just to clarify, even the best traffic engineer can make a mistake, but if dangerous gridlock resulted on Day 1, the study should have been terminated immediately. But it sounds as if this wasn't really even a real traffic engineering study, that politician aides without the authority to conduct such studies decided to practice engineering without a license. I would have to say that i would be shocked if there were an actual study document, laying out the experiment, that had no provision for terminating the study if gridlock resulted. At the very least, they should have tried closing 1 lane instead of 2, and if that had okay results, then go down to one lane and see what happens. But from 3 to 1 at a heavily used ramp with no means for terminating the experiment if it fails....something is fishy. I doubt any engineer with experience would have thought this would be a good idea.

I suggested previously that there are a lot of traffic simulation programs on the market that could be used to simulate the impact of shutting-off or limiting access from Fort Lee to the GWB toll plaza.

I very much question the technical need to actually do a shut-down, at least until data are collected and a simulation model developed and run - first.

I think studies should be done to find out how it got to the point where the loss of two side streets immediately causes a major local emergency.  Do we really have that big of a lack of redundancy?  Are the roads that close to capacity?  Maybe if someone built another Hudson crossing sometime in the last few decades, one town would not be able to be brought to a stop by such a simple closure.  What if the closure was part of an accident or disaster?  What if it was worse?

Study not needed.  A metropolitian area of 20 million people is not going to escape traffic issues if another crossing was built.  Since traffic is already congested on both sides of the river, there's no place to put the traffic anyway.  Heck - there's no place to put the crossing or the roads to get people to the crossing.

Yes, not only are the roads that close to capacity, they are at capacity much of the day.

And this isn't your typical "side street"...it carries more traffic than many interstate highways.

Well, it's begun:

http://politicslive.cnn.com/Event/Christie_news_conference_2?hpt=hp_t1

Deputy chief of staff terminated, another aide has a major choke chain put on him, and Christie is going to Fort Lee to personally apologize to the mayor.

Here is a brief take on this incident that I posted elsewhere:

Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game. I think it's a stretch to say that this will, or should, be a major sticking point in Christie's campaign if he runs for president. As of now, this appears to be an operation run by a couple of rogue staffers. If Christie had nothing to do with it, I would think that securing the resignations of those who orchestrated it will solve the problem and this will go away in two weeks, to be replaced by some other scandal du jour.

As for the incident itself, I think it's comical that the traffic jams were engineered as political payback for a mayor who didn't support Christie's gubernatorial re-election campaign. The mayor is not the one who suffered. It was the people of Fort Lee who suffered. From all the documents that have been released, it appears as if the mayor worked really hard to get the problem resolved, thus making him look better in the eyes of his constituency. I don't see how the Christie staffers thought that snarling traffic in Fort Lee would be proper revenge on the mayor for not supporting Christie. Their logic was faulty.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
As for the incident itself, I think it's comical that the traffic jams were engineered as political payback for a mayor who didn't support Christie's gubernatorial re-election campaign. The mayor is not the one who suffered. It was the people of Fort Lee who suffered. From all the documents that have been released, it appears as if the mayor worked really hard to get the problem resolved, thus making him look better in the eyes of his constituency. I don't see how the Christie staffers thought that snarling traffic in Fort Lee would be proper revenge on the mayor for not supporting Christie. Their logic was faulty.

I don't think it's comical seeing as how someone couldn't get medical attention and died in an ambulance. I don't think Christie is at fault here - though he did the right thing and fired the hell out of Bridget Anne Kelly, and he's taking the appropriate steps to rectify the problem. 

I agree that this is one of those "scandals" that nobody will remember or care about a month from now- I think this has no impact on a potential presidential campaign. This is just like the Obama IRS issue a few months back- people who support him will blame rogue actors and people who dislike him will blame him and the indifferent folks in the middle wont worry about it.

One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

The whole thought process behind the lane closures I find mysterious.  Wouldn't Republicans be caught up in the traffic snarl too?  Were they polled to see if they were willing to take a hit along with the evil misguided communist left wing liberal God denying socialist Democrats ??

I would not eagerly waste time in a traffic jam even to support some very good causes, say for instance, curing cancer, alms for the poor, or getting more skin on HBO . . . .

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Quote from: Zeffy on January 09, 2014, 11:59:16 AM
I don't think it's comical seeing as how someone couldn't get medical attention and died in an ambulance. I don't think Christie is at fault here - though he did the right thing and fired the hell out of Bridget Anne Kelly, and he's taking the appropriate steps to rectify the problem.

The result wasn't comical. What I found laughable was the (lack of) logic behind it; that traffic problems would somehow hurt the mayor. It wasn't the mayor who got hurt, but his constituency. From everything I've seen, it appears that the mayor handled the situation very well in trying to get it resolved.

(Someone else had the same reaction to my comment about it on Facebook, so I must not have explained myself very well).

This is Not the first time a bridge was closed for political reasons. See 1993 Bay Bridge incident

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/3-free-days-on-Bay-Bridge-to-atone-for-DJ-haircut-3123363.php

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Lots of out of state traffic, more so than in Texas where most users are from Texas, etc. Plus in NY people wouldn't pay. The state have very limited ability to force people from out of state to pay, registration suspensions or holds only work in- State.

Remember NY has to use gates on its subway, can't trust people to pay on a proof I payment system.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
I don't see how the Christie staffers thought that snarling traffic in Fort Lee would be proper revenge on the mayor for not supporting Christie. Their logic was faulty.

My 2 pfennigs: heads will roll, scapegoats will be blamed, but the truth will likely never be fully known.

I think he is definitely lying. He said in a news conference that he discovered the allegations in the newspaper.....wait for it......"after his workout."

Quote from: mtantillo on January 09, 2014, 02:23:41 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Lots of out of state traffic, more so than in Texas where most users are from Texas, etc. Plus in NY people wouldn't pay. The state have very limited ability to force people from out of state to pay, registration suspensions or holds only work in- State.

Remember NY has to use gates on its subway, can't trust people to pay on a proof I payment system.

I still don't see why such a ramp could not be E-Z Pass only or E-Z Pass plus a single cash lane (2 lanes total) to facilitate traffic flow.  We have a lot of out of state users on the Illinois Tollway system, but only some of them need to use the cash lanes.  Plus, this toll plaza is in New Jersey, not New York, so I would think New Jersey laws would apply.  Do they not use cameras to catch toll violators in New Jersey?

Some of the ramps (but not this one) are EZ-Pass only at night. When the Goog was through, one of the three Christie Lanes was EZ-Pass only: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.853934,-73.966881&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,72.69,,0,14.06

Here's a view of these lanes being used only for the Fort Lee entrance: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.854202,-73.967375&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854085,-73.967016&panoid=eUgFz6jOArEmhY0n39yf1A&cbp=12,86.33,,1,1.8

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 02:39:50 PM

Quote from: mtantillo on January 09, 2014, 02:23:41 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Lots of out of state traffic, more so than in Texas where most users are from Texas, etc. Plus in NY people wouldn't pay. The state have very limited ability to force people from out of state to pay, registration suspensions or holds only work in- State.

Remember NY has to use gates on its subway, can't trust people to pay on a proof I payment system.

I still don't see why such a ramp could not be E-Z Pass only or E-Z Pass plus a single cash lane (2 lanes total) to facilitate traffic flow.  We have a lot of out of state users on the Illinois Tollway system, but only some of them need to use the cash lanes.  Plus, this toll plaza is in New Jersey, not New York, so I would think New Jersey laws would apply.  Do they not use cameras to catch toll violators in New Jersey?

There is enough traffic to require 3 lanes at that entrance.  Even 2 would probably cause much more traffic for local people than time it would save for I-95 traffic.  Locals lose 1/3 of their toll lanes, I-95 gains 11% extra capacity. 

The Fort Lee entrance cannot be converted to AET (at least not until the GWB goes all AET as a whole), because that ramp is actually the overnight detour for cash customers coming from the Palisades Parkway.  The Palisades plaza is E-ZPass only overnight, and those with cash are directed to this ramp.  The idea is to concentrate all the toll personnel at one toll plaza overnight (and the Fort Lee ramp is technically the same plaza as the upper level plaza, only cones separate the lanes). 

I think the reason why agencies are reluctant to implement AET is this: for ORT where you give people the option to pay cash, it is a violation to pass through without a tag, at that moment.  A fine is assessed, and with a $50 fine, the police will look at all options to track you down.  With AET and no option to pay cash, there is no fine, just a slightly marked up toll (an extra $2 processing fee for example).  With only $2, that is not enough to go after people who don't voluntarily pay up...so much so that many toll agencies give "free rides" to those from out of state.  But in Texas, a tiny percentage is from out of state...on the GWB a good chunk is from outside of NY/NJ.  So many of those tolls go uncollected...and they can't fine you because they were the ones who determined it wasn't worth their money to track you down and send a bill. 

Now as more toll passes become interoperable this will be less of an issue.  And also, as states have agreenments to pass DMV info on to each other and do registration blocks on each other's citizens, etc., this will becomes less of an issue.  Many east coast agencies are looking at AET, but just aren't quite there yet: MassDOT, MTA in NY, PANYNJ, PA Turnpike, AC Expressway...they are looking at it right now. 

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 02:39:50 PM

Quote from: mtantillo on January 09, 2014, 02:23:41 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Lots of out of state traffic, more so than in Texas where most users are from Texas, etc. Plus in NY people wouldn't pay. The state have very limited ability to force people from out of state to pay, registration suspensions or holds only work in- State.

Remember NY has to use gates on its subway, can't trust people to pay on a proof I payment system.

I still don't see why such a ramp could not be E-Z Pass only or E-Z Pass plus a single cash lane (2 lanes total) to facilitate traffic flow.  We have a lot of out of state users on the Illinois Tollway system, but only some of them need to use the cash lanes.  Plus, this toll plaza is in New Jersey, not New York, so I would think New Jersey laws would apply.  Do they not use cameras to catch toll violators in New Jersey?

Remember - this toll bridge opened in 1931. The lower level opened in the early 60's.  Open Road tolling wasn't a thought back then.  And this isn't the only toll plaza for the bridge.  There are 3 plazas all together.  Most eastern states' toll roads are decades old.  Just retrofitting them for Express tolling is a major and expensive undertaking.  There's also the issues of unions to be looked at.  A toll authority could say "screw you, we're laying you all off and eliminating all toll positions", but then the maintenance staff will say "fine, we will picket and not work either". 

This bridge sees nearly 300,000 vehicles come through a day.  If 20% didn't have EZ Pass, that's 60,000 vehicles that would need to have their license plates looked up and a bill sent to.

Using the GSM view in the linked article, 2 of the 3 lanes were cash at the time, 1 was EZ Pass.  But, that view also wasn't taken during rush hour, when every lane approaching the bridge would be jammed.  If ORT was in use, the bridge would be jammed because the NY side of the river couldn't handle all the traffic coming through.

As far as the toll plaza being located in NJ, that's relatively meaningless.  The toll authorities tend to be bi-state authorities, and the authorities have rules about which state laws must be followed.  If the PANYNJ is headquartered in New York, they may have to follow NY laws.  If they follow NJ laws, the same issues would apply if they aren't permitted to suspend licenses of out-of-state drivers.  And yes, they do use cameras.

I know, not from the area, this all seems like stuff that can be easily overcome.  It can't.  It's just the area and how the area works and what the residents of the area expect.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 09, 2014, 03:22:09 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 02:39:50 PM
I still don't see why such a ramp could not be E-Z Pass only or E-Z Pass plus a single cash lane (2 lanes total) to facilitate traffic flow.  We have a lot of out of state users on the Illinois Tollway system, but only some of them need to use the cash lanes.  Plus, this toll plaza is in New Jersey, not New York, so I would think New Jersey laws would apply.  Do they not use cameras to catch toll violators in New Jersey?

Remember - this toll bridge opened in 1931. The lower level opened in the early 60's.  Open Road tolling wasn't a thought back then.  And this isn't the only toll plaza for the bridge.  There are 3 plazas all together.  Most eastern states' toll roads are decades old.  Just retrofitting them for Express tolling is a major and expensive undertaking.  There's also the issues of unions to be looked at.  A toll authority could say "screw you, we're laying you all off and eliminating all toll positions", but then the maintenance staff will say "fine, we will picket and not work either". 

This bridge sees nearly 300,000 vehicles come through a day.  If 20% didn't have EZ Pass, that's 60,000 vehicles that would need to have their license plates looked up and a bill sent to.

Using the GSM view in the linked article, 2 of the 3 lanes were cash at the time, 1 was EZ Pass.  But, that view also wasn't taken during rush hour, when every lane approaching the bridge would be jammed.  If ORT was in use, the bridge would be jammed because the NY side of the river couldn't handle all the traffic coming through.

As far as the toll plaza being located in NJ, that's relatively meaningless.  The toll authorities tend to be bi-state authorities, and the authorities have rules about which state laws must be followed.  If the PANYNJ is headquartered in New York, they may have to follow NY laws.  If they follow NJ laws, the same issues would apply if they aren't permitted to suspend licenses of out-of-state drivers.  And yes, they do use cameras.

I know, not from the area, this all seems like stuff that can be easily overcome.  It can't.  It's just the area and how the area works and what the residents of the area expect.

Doesn't mean it cannot be converted.  The Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) converted the entire system to ORT in the early 2000s.  Much of this mileage (Tri-State, Northwest, East-West) was opened in 1958.  The original system had barriers like the one at the GWB.  ISTHA solved the problem by having cash lanes off to the side of the ORT lanes.  Usually there is also an I-Pass lane with the cash lanes as there is an exit/entrance that can only be accessed via the toll plaza cash lanes.

ISTHA also doesn't fine every violator immediately.  Usually they wait until the violator has gone through multiple toll plazas without paying.  Enough to mark them as a chronic toll violator.  A lot of the out of state ones will slip through on this.  However, they do go after Indiana and Wisconsin violators as much as they do Illinois violators.

They also, IIRC, have a toll collector union (Chicago is a big a hotbed of unionism as are a lot of east coast areas), and yet they were able to implement ORT with cash lanes.  A lot of what was eliminated were the automatic lanes, the coin buckets.

Here's an example on the Tri-State Tollway of a converted toll plaza with an exit that can only be taken through the toll plaza: Cermak Road Plaza 35 (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.85366,-87.915795&spn=0.009286,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.853472,-87.919893&panoid=kZouJdUZupgYejIgA6X3RA&cbp=12,156.41,,0,3.36).  The original plaza location dates to 1958 and was rebuilt in the 1990s with the ORT lanes pushed through in the 2000s.

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 03:06:12 PM
Some of the ramps (but not this one) are EZ-Pass only at night. When the Goog was through, one of the three Christie Lanes was EZ-Pass only: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.853934,-73.966881&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,72.69,,0,14.06

Here's a view of these lanes being used only for the Fort Lee entrance: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.854202,-73.967375&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854085,-73.967016&panoid=eUgFz6jOArEmhY0n39yf1A&cbp=12,86.33,,1,1.8

Dang, that's a lot of scout cars parked in that porkchop.  One would think that if the lanes are dedicated that concrete barriers might be a better choice than cones.

The Fort Lee emails (redacted) are here:

http://dng.northjersey.com/media_server/tr/2014/01/09gwb/port_authority_2014.pdf

Of interest is a September 13 email from David Wildstein to Bridget Anne Kelly, who has now been fired, noting that officials on the New York side (presumably working for the Port Authority) had re-opened the two closed lanes to clear the congestion.  Wildstein noted that he had "fixed" this by ordering the two lanes closed again.  This proves mens rea:  not only were they deliberately sabotaging traffic flow, they were actively working to prevent the sabotage from being repaired.

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 03:49:09 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 03:06:12 PM
Some of the ramps (but not this one) are EZ-Pass only at night. When the Goog was through, one of the three Christie Lanes was EZ-Pass only: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.853934,-73.966881&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,72.69,,0,14.06

Here's a view of these lanes being used only for the Fort Lee entrance: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.854202,-73.967375&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854085,-73.967016&panoid=eUgFz6jOArEmhY0n39yf1A&cbp=12,86.33,,1,1.8

Dang, that's a lot of scout cars parked in that porkchop.  One would think that if the lanes are dedicated that concrete barriers might be a better choice than cones.

Look again at the first image - the line of cones is discontinuous at that time, meaning that traffic from the main lanes can use the Christie Booths.

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 04:49:19 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 03:49:09 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 03:06:12 PM
Some of the ramps (but not this one) are EZ-Pass only at night. When the Goog was through, one of the three Christie Lanes was EZ-Pass only: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.853934,-73.966881&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,72.69,,0,14.06

Here's a view of these lanes being used only for the Fort Lee entrance: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.854202,-73.967375&spn=0.006581,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.854085,-73.967016&panoid=eUgFz6jOArEmhY0n39yf1A&cbp=12,86.33,,1,1.8

Dang, that's a lot of scout cars parked in that porkchop.  One would think that if the lanes are dedicated that concrete barriers might be a better choice than cones.

Look again at the first image - the line of cones is discontinuous at that time, meaning that traffic from the main lanes can use the Christie Booths.

The cones are continuous at rush hour.

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 09, 2014, 04:46:01 PM
The Fort Lee emails (redacted) are here:

http://dng.northjersey.com/media_server/tr/2014/01/09gwb/port_authority_2014.pdf

Of interest is a September 13 email from David Wildstein to Bridget Anne Kelly, who has now been fired, noting that officials on the New York side (presumably working for the Port Authority) had re-opened the two closed lanes to clear the congestion.  Wildstein noted that he had "fixed" this by ordering the two lanes closed again.  This proves mens rea:  not only were they deliberately sabotaging traffic flow, they were actively working to prevent the sabotage from being repaired.

It looks pretty damning.  Reminds me of the "fucking golden" quote from Blago among other infamous quotes from Chicago politicians.

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 03:49:09 PM

Doesn't mean it cannot be converted.  The Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) converted the entire system to ORT in the early 2000s.  Much of this mileage (Tri-State, Northwest, East-West) was opened in 1958.  The original system had barriers like the one at the GWB.  ISTHA solved the problem by having cash lanes off to the side of the ORT lanes.  Usually there is also an I-Pass lane with the cash lanes as there is an exit/entrance that can only be accessed via the toll plaza cash lanes.

ISTHA also doesn't fine every violator immediately.  Usually they wait until the violator has gone through multiple toll plazas without paying.  Enough to mark them as a chronic toll violator.  A lot of the out of state ones will slip through on this.  However, they do go after Indiana and Wisconsin violators as much as they do Illinois violators.

They also, IIRC, have a toll collector union (Chicago is a big a hotbed of unionism as are a lot of east coast areas), and yet they were able to implement ORT with cash lanes.  A lot of what was eliminated were the automatic lanes, the coin buckets.

ORT has been implemented on many east coast toll roads, including but not limited to the NJ Turnpike, PA Turnpike, DE Turnpike, DE Rt. 1, Garden State Parkway, and AC Expressway and has been talked about on many other roads as well. 

Bridge toll plazas are a different story, due to nearby ramps. short sight distances, etc.  It can be done, depending on the circumstances.  The GWB tolls would not be an ideal candidate because of the tight toll plaza conditions, both before and after the plaza.  Besides, traffic will generally jam up going into the crossing anyway, and sound engineering practices would not recommend high speed ORT when the vehicles will only hit congestion anyway.

Quote
Dang, that's a lot of scout cars parked in that porkchop.  One would think that if the lanes are dedicated that concrete barriers might be a better choice than cones.

They're not there to keep people in the correct lanes.  They're there to do random checks on trucks, or other surveillance.

For another example of how small and tight the GWB toll plaza is:

Using the Cermak Road Plaza 35, at 200 feet, one can barely see the end points where the ORT lanes meet the cash toll lanes: http://goo.gl/maps/8xqXL

Using the GWB plaza, at 200 feet, one can see the toll plaza takes up only about a quarter of the room: http://goo.gl/maps/VLp3f  And if you notice, you can see all THREE toll plazas for the bridge...at the same height distance that doesn't even allow the entire Tri-State Tollway plaza to be seen!

That's another reason why ORT would never be considered at the GWB, unless they went AET.

The real key in this will come when Bridget Kelly talks, which she most assuredly will at some point. If Christie is lying, she'll call him out on it since he disparaged her so greatly today.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 09, 2014, 06:16:46 PM

Quote
Dang, that's a lot of scout cars parked in that porkchop.  One would think that if the lanes are dedicated that concrete barriers might be a better choice than cones.

They're not there to keep people in the correct lanes.  They're there to do random checks on trucks, or other surveillance.

They're there to look tough and ward off evil terrorist spirits. This bridge is operated by the same people that own the World Trade Center, so they tend to be rather security paranoid.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
The real key in this will come when Bridget Kelly talks, which she most assuredly will at some point. If Christie is lying, she'll call him out on it since he disparaged her so greatly today.

NOW you're talking rationally. Don't leap to judgment or predictions ("much ado about nothing") while the story is developing.

I'd think Christy would be precluded from complicity because his IQ is clearly out of the house plant/nematode/lichen range.

I'm thinking if he was really annoyed with Fort Lee, New Jersey, it would have disappeared during the night and dumped in the pine barrens.

:biggrin:

Finally a reason Bridge-T thought the closure would cause commuters to blame the Fort Lee mayor. (Fuck the police.)
http://www.businessinsider.com/fort-lee-mayor-port-authority-blamed-me-for-the-traffic-jam-2014-1

QuoteFort Lee, N.J. Mayor Mark Sokolich (D) wrote a letter to a top Port Authority official on Sept. 12 complaining that the agency's police officers were telling commuters it was the mayor's fault that lanes were closed on the George Washington Bridge, causing massive traffic jams.

And an interesting bit from the dump: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/10/1268754/-There-WAS-a-traffic-study-but-Wildstein-s-test-actually-screwed-it-up

This crap's getting deeper by the minute. If it was any deeper you'd need SCUBA gear. :crazy: :spin:

Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2013, 09:25:02 AM
N.Y. Times: Clues but No Full Account of Order That Turned a New Jersey Town Into a Parking Lot (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/10/nyregion/clues-but-no-full-account-of-order-that-turned-a-new-jersey-town-into-a-parking-lot.html)

QuoteIt would seem a minor whodunit for a small suburb: On the first day of school in September, three access lanes leading from Fort Lee, N.J., streets to the George Washington Bridge were unexpectedly and mysteriously shut down. Cars backed up, the town turned into a parking lot, half-hour bridge commutes stretched into four hours, buses and children were late for school, and emergency workers could not respond quickly to the day's events, which included a missing toddler, a cardiac arrest and a car driving into a building.

QuoteBut the George Washington Bridge is the world's busiest, and New Jersey is led by one of the nation's most pugnacious and prominent politicians, Gov. Chris Christie – who also happens to appoint the people who control the bridge.

QuoteSo the unfolding story of the lane closings has become something of a cause célèbre, resulting in a hearing before the New Jersey Legislature on Monday, as well as a window into the proudly aggressive and often secretive dealings of Mr. Christie's team.

Where's the NYDOt in all of this since they have some jurisdiction on some New York to NJ Highways. The Problem here is that New York City, and New York State was forced to watch this Garbage.

Quote from: bing101 on January 10, 2014, 11:22:25 PM
Where's the NYDOt in all of this since they have some jurisdiction on some New York to NJ Highways. The Problem here is that New York City, and New York State was forced to watch this Garbage.

I don't think the NYCDOT or NYSDOT has much of a say-so here.  This section of road is under jurisdiction of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

N.Y. Times: Bridge Scandal Papers Point to Cover-Up by Chris Christie Allies (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/11/nyregion/hundreds-of-pages-on-bridge-scandal-released.html)

Washington Post graphic (this is describes what happened in graphic detail): For Christie, perhaps a bridge too far (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/for-christie-perhaps-a-bridge-too-far/2014/01/09/2928e054-797a-11e3-af7f-13bf0e9965f6_graphic.html)

What I can't understand, and this is with tongue only partially in cheek, is how that many New Jersey drivers allowed themselves for that many days to be constrained by mere traffic cones?

I-95 is fully owned by PANYNJ between US 9W and I-87.  NYSDOT and NYCDOT have very little/no authority there.

And that's just one bridge.  Including all the little bridge authorities, transportation in NY is divided between 11 different organizations (NYSDOT itself is also split into 11 semi-autonomous regions, making for a grant total of 22-23 authorities)

Quote from: vdeane on January 11, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
And that's just one bridge.  Including all the little bridge authorities, transportation in NY is divided between 11 different organizations (NYSDOT itself is also split into 11 semi-autonomous regions, making for a grant total of 22-23 authorities)

New Jersey has the main DOT, the NJ Turnpike Authority, the South Jersey Transportation Authority (ACE), all of the local county DOTs, and then has each of the bridge divisions like the DRJTBC, the D[E]RPA, the PANYNJ, and I believe there are other that I missed.

N.Y. Times: Lane Closings Scandal Shows Port Authority's Status as 2 Warring Fiefs (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/11/nyregion/lane-closings-scandal-shows-agencys-status-as-2-warring-fiefs.html)

QuoteAfter a top New Jersey political appointee at the Port Authority, David Wildstein, ordered the lane closings at the George Washington Bridge that clogged Fort Lee, N.J., for four days in September, the authority's New York-appointed executive director, Patrick J. Foye, exploded with anger and ordered the lanes reopened. But then the authority's New Jersey-appointed chairman, David Samson, expressed outrage over Mr. Foye's outrage, accusing him of leaking the story of the lane closings.

QuoteThe Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is a bistate agency that was designed to take politics out of the operation of the region's trade and transportation infrastructure. But as portrayed in email traffic released this week by investigators of the lane-closing scandal, it appears consumed by politics: a split personality beholden to the whims of the two rival governors who control it.

N.Y. Times editorial: After Chris Christie's Performance (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/opinion/after-chris-christies-performance.html)

QuoteGov. Chris Christie of New Jersey issued repeated apologies Thursday for the abuse of office that now threatens to undermine his political future. Though he sounded remorseful – and clearly sorry that this scandal might sink his ambitions for national office – he blamed his staff for making him a victim. Unbeknown to him, he said, they shut down lanes to the George Washington Bridge to create a four-day traffic jam to punish a local mayor who failed to endorse him in last year's election.

QuoteHe said he fired his "stupid"  and "deceitful"  deputy chief of staff, Bridget Anne Kelly, "because she lied to me"  about the gridlock scheme. Mr. Christie has also asked a Republican operative and former campaign adviser, Bill Stepien, to withdraw as a candidate to take over the state Republican Party. He, too, was on the email chain. Two of Mr. Christie's appointees to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, David Wildstein and Bill Baroni, resigned in December as news of the traffic vendetta became public.

Quote from: Zeffy on January 11, 2014, 12:33:42 PM

Quote from: vdeane on January 11, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
And that's just one bridge.  Including all the little bridge authorities, transportation in NY is divided between 11 different organizations (NYSDOT itself is also split into 11 semi-autonomous regions, making for a grant total of 22-23 authorities)

New Jersey has the main DOT, the NJ Turnpike Authority, the South Jersey Transportation Authority (ACE), all of the local county DOTs, and then has each of the bridge divisions like the DRJTBC, the D[E]RPA, the PANYNJ, and I believe there are other that I missed.

I was just doing state; below that, we have the county/town/village/city ones.  Fun fact: Nassau County has its own bridge authority!

Quote from: vdeane on January 11, 2014, 09:59:01 PM
Fun fact: Nassau County has its own bridge authority!

Yes, and from what I hear they have the corruption skills to make Bridgegate look like kindergarten-level shenanigans. (Oh wait, it already does...)

Rachel Maddow offers up an alternative theory (Christie may have been getting back not at the mayor of Fort Lee but at the state senator representing same)...

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/maddow-nj-bridge-scandal-was-political-revenge-but-maybe-not-for-the-reason-you-think%E2%80%A6/

From the article...

QuoteIn 2010, Christie took the unprecedented step of refusing to reappoint a New Jersey Supreme Court justice for another term, which set off the New Jersey Democrats, who got back at Christie by shooting down all the other Supreme Court justice nominees he put forward.

So when a Republican member of the New Jersey Supreme Court came up for reappointment last year, NJ Senate Democrats promised to make it a brutal fight, so Christie decided to stop the reappointment. He was furious at Senate Democrats, and held a press conference getting really angry with them.

That press conference, expressing much anger with Senate Democrats, was held on August 12, 2013, a day before the Bridgegate e-mail was sent. And Fort Lee, the town that got backed up, is part of the legislative district represented by Loretta Weinberg. The leader of the Senate Democrats.

ixnay

N.Y. Times: A Bridge to Scandal: Behind the Fort Lee Ruse (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/nyregion/a-bridge-to-scandal-behind-the-fort-lee-ruse.html)

QuoteBy his own account, Mark Sokolich rarely asks people for anything. "When you ask,"  he said, "you usually have to give."

QuoteAnd that is how he likes to govern as the mayor of Fort Lee, N.J., a dot of a borough perched atop the Palisades in the shadow of the George Washington Bridge.

QuoteOne day last spring, though, he was the person asked to give. A member of Gov. Chris Christie's re-election campaign staff came calling to see if Mr. Sokolich, a Democrat, would endorse the governor, a Republican. There was scant doubt that Mr. Christie would win. But his ambition was to win big. He joked that he wanted to eclipse the landslide record held by his mentor, former Gov. Thomas H. Kean, who prevailed by 40 points in 1985. His advisers hoped to demonstrate such broad support that Mr. Christie would become his party's logical presidential candidate in 2016. The campaign vigorously courted Democratic officials and notified reporters of fresh conquests.

Quote from: empirestate on January 12, 2014, 12:41:43 AM
Yes, and from what I hear they have the corruption skills to make Bridgegate look like kindergarten-level shenanigans. (Oh wait, it already does...)

This is the authority that refuses to participate in the E-ZPass IAG, right?

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2014, 12:17:52 AM

Quote from: empirestate on January 12, 2014, 12:41:43 AM
Yes, and from what I hear they have the corruption skills to make Bridgegate look like kindergarten-level shenanigans. (Oh wait, it already does...)

This is the authority that refuses to participate in the E-ZPass IAG, right?

Yes.

While I'm no fan of Chris Christie's, I've still thought "well, wait a minute. Who'd want to torpedo their career - or the career of their boss - over such a petty issue? No endorsement? Big deal. What's the real story?"

And in the back of my mind, "the real story" always involves money.

Said money may very well involve what's the center of this map:

https://goo.gl/maps/9Wrjm

Look closely. There's a very choice patch of undeveloped land to the south of the upper GWB ramps.

Apparently, the closures came at a relatively critical time for sealing up the funding for the billion dollar development Fort Lee's been trying to get built there, for which ramp access to the GWB was a crucial selling point. Note that when Fort Lee's mayor was hammering out an email to the Port Authority to clear up the situation, he wanted it done quietly, without political friction or press involvement.

So, hmm. On the one hand, this scenario gives us money to follow; it's easy to conceive of there being someone in a position of (port) authority that was interested in making sure they got their hand into this rather large pot of money, who used the potential ramp closings as leverage to have that happen.

On the other hand, it's also easy to conceive of this being a plot hatched (again, following the money) by folks in Christie's circle for their own self-interest, without involving Christie himself.  But then gain, Christie's on the record as being "sauced" about the number of lanes Fort Lee had, which is an opinion that he probably should have kept to himself.

Much of this speculation is informed by the following...

http://www.businessinsider.com/following-the-money-on-bridgegate-2014-1

So, in short...eh, who knows?

 http://www.nytimes.com/.../christie-cut-ties-with-mayor... (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/nyregion/christie-cut-ties-with-mayor-after-being-denied-endorsement-documents-show.html) Update mayor, Steven Fulop of Jersey City was another target  mentioned in the NY Times article. Damn Christie Cabinet Members used the Port Authority as a politcal Hitman and Cabinet act like members of the Mafia.

Quote from: Steve on December 11, 2013, 07:28:51 PM
(Attempting to get back on topic)
I can confirm that this was done as a study. Any political implications about why it was studied are an exercise best left to editorials. It may not have been done thoroughly/properly, though, i.e. as someone mentioned, involving a thorough traffic engineering study. I haven't seen any materials related to the study or any of the traffic volumes involved, so as a traffic engineer I have to withhold any further comment.

But why?  Any baboon could tell you what was going to happen.  This is like touching your hand to a stove when you know good and well you're going to get burned.  The traffic study alibi doesn't add up.

I have been quiet on this subject and thought I would add an observation.  I worked in NJ state govt and politics for a brief period about 12 years ago.  I quickly left for graduate school and greener pastures after two observations.

One: the people are amateurs.  Stuff like this happens all the time, usually on a smaller scale though.  No innovators are going to come up with bold new ideas to solve major problems at the state govt level.  Smart people who are winners are a rarity and usually leave for something better.  I am not disrespecting everyone in state govt as there are many professionals that take their jobs seriously and perform well, but they are far outnumbered and poorly led by the NJ political class (which is not hard to break into as they are regular folks) from either party. 

Two: like most people, they want to make more money.  The compensation associated with all but a few jobs like the head of PANYNJ is low compared to what you could make in the private sector.  This drives people out like I said in my first point, but also encourages stupid risk taking by those that stay for immediate or future monetary gain.  If you couple this desire with amateur people, you see numerous mistakes from people that were on the "fast track". 

Google Gary Taffat, governor McGreevey's first chief of staff.  There were many instances of him being cited for driving through red lights on the shoulder of US 1 with his red and blue lights going on the dashboard.  He was cited smiling when he would do this meaning he thought this was "cool". That speaks to amateur status.  He was also driven out of the state a few years later for violating several federal laws trying to secure personal payment for billboard leases on state land.  That speaks to his desire to make more money.  Why would someone do this?  He, like Briget, was an amateur. 

Was the governor involved?  Who knows?  Was Obama involved in the healthcare website?  Who knows?  Was Hilary involved in Benghazi?  Who knows?  This is a priceless and classic NJ story that should go on the trophy with other notables from years past. 

Quote from: mc78andrew on January 14, 2014, 03:58:01 AM
I have been quiet on this subject and thought I would add an observation.  I worked in NJ state govt and politics for a brief period about 12 years ago.  I quickly left for graduate school and greener pastures after two observations.

One: the people are amateurs.

Hell, this is amateurish by Illinois standards.  Here, at least Mike Madigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Madigan) would've faked some sort of road construction to foul up traffic.  A crew would've been brought out to block off the lanes for "pothole repairs".  Make it look like something is being done when in reality, it's just there to fuck over Fort Lee.

QuoteStuff like this happens all the time, usually on a smaller scale though.  No innovators are going to come up with bold new ideas to solve major problems at the state govt level.  Smart people who are winners are a rarity and usually leave for something better.  I am not disrespecting everyone in state govt as there are many professionals that take their jobs seriously and perform well, but they are far outnumbered and poorly led by the NJ political class (which is not hard to break into as they are regular folks) from either party.

Sounds very familiar.  Have you been to Chicago yet? 

QuoteTwo: like most people, they want to make more money.

In Illinois, that's what graft and bribes are for.  We had one Secretary of State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Powell_%28politician%29) die with multiple shoeboxes full of cash stored in a hotel.

QuoteThe compensation associated with all but a few jobs like the head of PANYNJ is low compared to what you could make in the private sector.  This drives people out like I said in my first point, but also encourages stupid risk taking by those that stay for immediate or future monetary gain.  If you couple this desire with amateur people, you see numerous mistakes from people that were on the "fast track".

Here, we call them Chicago Aldermen, or Rod Blagojevich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich_corruption_charges). 

QuoteGoogle Gary Taffat, governor McGreevey's first chief of staff.  There were many instances of him being cited for driving through red lights on the shoulder of US 1 with his red and blue lights going on the dashboard.  He was cited smiling when he would do this meaning he thought this was "cool". That speaks to amateur status.  He was also driven out of the state a few years later for violating several federal laws trying to secure personal payment for billboard leases on state land.  That speaks to his desire to make more money.  Why would someone do this?  He, like Briget, was an amateur. 

Was the governor involved?  Who knows?  Was Obama involved in the healthcare website?  Who knows?  Was Hilary involved in Benghazi?  Who knows?  This is a priceless and classic NJ story that should go on the trophy with other notables from years past. 

New Jersey sounds a lot like Illinois, politically.  Except, while your metro areas have their largest cities off in the adjoining states, we have ours at the center of all that is corrupt in the state.  We even have an unofficial state motto for it: "Ubi est mea?".

Quote from: empirestate on January 11, 2014, 11:58:16 AM
What I can't understand, and this is with tongue only partially in cheek, is how that many New Jersey drivers allowed themselves for that many days to be constrained by mere traffic cones?

I have quietly wondered this myself. It's possible a PA police officer was dispatched to watch the cones and make sure they weren't displaced.

The Goog shows popo stationed there in its (normal configuration) street view photos.

Quote from: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 11:55:45 AM
The Goog shows popo stationed there in its (normal configuration) street view photos.

To elaborate,

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.853879,-73.966527&spn=0.001171,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,323.98,,0,12.61

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.854084,-73.967015&spn=0.001179,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854148,-73.967112&panoid=sFB2JvG8fbCZ-d9IdS4bGw&cbp=12,86.48,,0,10.51

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/12/gov_chris_christie_called_andrew_cuomo_to_complain_about_handling_of_port_authority_lane_closing_sna.html (http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/12/gov_chris_christie_called_andrew_cuomo_to_complain_about_handling_of_port_authority_lane_closing_sna.html)

The Scandal Continues. NYDot and Cuomo's Cabinet may have a case against Christie and Cabinet.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/chris-christie-andrew-cuomo-traffic-101092.html (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/chris-christie-andrew-cuomo-traffic-101092.html)

This is Now edited

cabinet vs cablinet?  who comes up with these!?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 15, 2014, 02:38:16 PM
cabinet vs cablinet?  who comes up with these!?

Just like "guide rail" versus "guard rail"

Quote from: bing101 on January 15, 2014, 02:07:56 PM
The Gossip Continues. NYDot and Cuomo's Cabinet may have a case against Christie and Cablinet.

Well, not exactly 'continuing' gossip. That was written in December, well before what we found out last week.

Bridget vs. bridge?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 15, 2014, 02:54:02 PM

Quote from: bing101 on January 15, 2014, 02:07:56 PM
The Gossip Continues. NYDot and Cuomo's Cabinet may have a case against Christie and Cablinet.

Well, not exactly 'continuing' gossip. That was written in December, well before what we found out last week.

Well Its now edited

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 11, 2013, 03:56:45 PM
Right...and yes, that's what it said.  But just imagine if the situation was reversed...actually, forget that.  Just imagine if Christie set up a website...Any problems would be magnified.  Daily readers of the website/paper, as one will note in the comment section, are very familiar with the antics of the newspaper company.

The only thing that is "magnified" about Christie is his big, fat ass.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 08, 2014, 06:00:38 PM
It's quite possible the governor didn't know about it.  I could send emails all day and never inform my supervisor about what I'm sending. 

unfortunately, anytime anything is remotely connected to the governor, it makes it sound like he is the guilty party. 

The Christie *administration* is guilty of the lane closures.  There is no question of this.  The question is whether Tons O' Fun himself ordered the lane closures or if some of his underlings planned it and did it themselves.  If the former is true, then he is an evil, vindictive tyrant who needs to be locked away.  If the latter is true, then he is incompetent and doesn't know what is going on in his administration.  Either way, the Chris Christie brand is damaged goods and this will harm his political career whether he was guilty or not.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Here is a brief take on this incident that I posted elsewhere:

Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game. I think it's a stretch to say that this will, or should, be a major sticking point in Christie's campaign if he runs for president. As of now, this appears to be an operation run by a couple of rogue staffers. If Christie had nothing to do with it, I would think that securing the resignations of those who orchestrated it will solve the problem and this will go away in two weeks, to be replaced by some other scandal du jour.

As for the incident itself, I think it's comical that the traffic jams were engineered as political payback for a mayor who didn't support Christie's gubernatorial re-election campaign. The mayor is not the one who suffered. It was the people of Fort Lee who suffered. From all the documents that have been released, it appears as if the mayor worked really hard to get the problem resolved, thus making him look better in the eyes of his constituency. I don't see how the Christie staffers thought that snarling traffic in Fort Lee would be proper revenge on the mayor for not supporting Christie. Their logic was faulty.

If the "rogue" staffers planned out this large conspiracy and carried it out, then the governor does not know (or care) what is going on in his administration.  When you have no knowledge of an out of control administration, it means you are totally incompetent.  It's a serious issue and the buck stops with the governor.  His only chance to be in the White House is if Obama invites him there for a dinner.  He's done.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 09, 2014, 03:22:09 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 02:39:50 PM

Quote from: mtantillo on January 09, 2014, 02:23:41 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 09, 2014, 01:16:16 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 09, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: realjd on January 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM
One thing I haven't been able to find: a map. What lanes were actually closed?

http://www.northjersey.com/fortlee/GWB_emails_Christie_Fort_lee_mayor.html
Traffic using that onramp (and the one from Center Avenue?) was limited to the far right toll lane.

What a shitty design.  It's nothing that open road tolling wouldn't solve.  Why have eastern bridges and toll authorities been so slow in adopting ORT?

Lots of out of state traffic, more so than in Texas where most users are from Texas, etc. Plus in NY people wouldn't pay. The state have very limited ability to force people from out of state to pay, registration suspensions or holds only work in- State.

Remember NY has to use gates on its subway, can't trust people to pay on a proof I payment system.

I still don't see why such a ramp could not be E-Z Pass only or E-Z Pass plus a single cash lane (2 lanes total) to facilitate traffic flow.  We have a lot of out of state users on the Illinois Tollway system, but only some of them need to use the cash lanes.  Plus, this toll plaza is in New Jersey, not New York, so I would think New Jersey laws would apply.  Do they not use cameras to catch toll violators in New Jersey?

Remember - this toll bridge opened in 1931. The lower level opened in the early 60's.  Open Road tolling wasn't a thought back then.  And this isn't the only toll plaza for the bridge.  There are 3 plazas all together.  Most eastern states' toll roads are decades old.  Just retrofitting them for Express tolling is a major and expensive undertaking. 

Oklahoma was able to convert its turnpike system over to Pikepass.  The oldest of these turnpikes was opened in 1953.  I know that OKC is a lot different from NYC, but it can be done if one has the will.

People who work for you can always make bad decisions.  There are controls to prevent it and email monitoring to help you as a supervisor, but if someone is going to do something like this, there is only so much that can be done to prevent it.  Just like all "evil".  Is he Responsible?  Yes!  Is he Culpable?  No!

Have you ever run a large organization?  My guess is no.  You are not incompetent beucase you failed to stop one of your employees from doing something stupid.

Also, you can't know soemthing if people deliberately keep it from you.  Just like Obama and the healthcare website and Obama in Benghazi. Someone made the call not to send in delta force to try and save the ambassador.  It wasn't Obama. Had someone given him the chance, he said he would have.  I'm not sure I believe him on that, but a fact pattern has been established that such a decision was not presented to him.  So he cannot be directly blamed for the poor response even though as the boss he is responsible.  To bad...only 1083 days until 1/20/17.

Besides there is a poll out already that says 70 percent of people haven't changed there opinion of him.  Unless there is a smoking gun, this to shall pass. 

Quote from: mc78andrew on January 16, 2014, 05:26:08 AM
People who work for you can always make bad decisions.  There are controls to prevent it and email monitoring to help you as a supervisor, but if someone is going to do something like this, there is only so much that can be done to prevent it.  Just like all "evil".  Is he Responsible?  Yes!  Is he Culpable?  No!

Have you ever run a large organization?  My guess is no.  You are not incompetent beucase you failed to stop one of your employees from doing something stupid.

Also, you can't know soemthing if people deliberately keep it from you.  Just like Obama and the healthcare website and Obama in Benghazi. Someone made the call not to send in delta force to try and save the ambassador.  It wasn't Obama. Had someone given him the chance, he said he would have.  I'm not sure I believe him on that, but a fact pattern has been established that such a decision was not presented to him.  So he cannot be directly blamed for the poor response even though as the boss he is responsible.  To bad...only 1083 days until 1/20/17.

Besides there is a poll out already that says 70 percent of people haven't changed there opinion of him.  Unless there is a smoking gun, this to shall pass.

Here's the difference: only one of these is a scandal.

/makin' some popcorn.

Quote from: hubcity on January 16, 2014, 09:16:56 AM

Quote from: mc78andrew on January 16, 2014, 05:26:08 AM
People who work for you can always make bad decisions.  There are controls to prevent it and email monitoring to help you as a supervisor, but if someone is going to do something like this, there is only so much that can be done to prevent it.  Just like all "evil".  Is he Responsible?  Yes!  Is he Culpable?  No!

Have you ever run a large organization?  My guess is no.  You are not incompetent beucase you failed to stop one of your employees from doing something stupid.

Also, you can't know soemthing if people deliberately keep it from you.  Just like Obama and the healthcare website and Obama in Benghazi. Someone made the call not to send in delta force to try and save the ambassador.  It wasn't Obama. Had someone given him the chance, he said he would have.  I'm not sure I believe him on that, but a fact pattern has been established that such a decision was not presented to him.  So he cannot be directly blamed for the poor response even though as the boss he is responsible.  To bad...only 1083 days until 1/20/17.

Besides there is a poll out already that says 70 percent of people haven't changed there opinion of him.  Unless there is a smoking gun, this to shall pass.

Here's the difference: only one of these is a scandal.

/makin' some popcorn.

Don't forget the cheese flavoring.   :-|

Quote from: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 02:59:05 PMBridget vs. bridge?

I think she's in hiding.  Others have commented upthread that perspectives on the story are likely to change radically if and when she speaks out, but I suspect that when she was fired, she was given additional strong incentives to keep her mouth shut.

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 16, 2014, 10:08:34 AM

Quote from: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 02:59:05 PMBridget vs. bridge?

I think she's in hiding.  Others have commented upthread that perspectives on the story are likely to change radically if and when she speaks out, but I suspect that when she was fired, she was given additional strong incentives to keep her mouth shut.

I would suspect that she would be covered under any applicable whistleblower protections if she does decide to spill any beans.

I also saw it noted that she used her personal email account to send the "Time for some traffic problems" email. That should have nominally protected her against prying eyes. Government emails are public records; private emails can only be obtained by a subpoena and I would think there would have to be some sort of probable cause to get the subpoena. If she sent that email to the Port Authority guy's government email address, she screwed up and opened up that can o'worms all on her own.

---

To address some of the comments about Christie and his knowledge of the incident or the actions of his staff, trust me on this as someone who works in a state government organization: In any large bureaucracy, public or private, top executives are well-insulated from the actions of underlings. It's quite easy for a rogue employee to do something and then knowledge of the action takes forever to trickle up to the upper level. It's quite plausible for Bridget Kelly to have orchestrated this without Christie's knowledge or blessing, especially since it appears she lied about it when given the initial opportunity to come clean. I've seen things like this happen often: Something is done without the executive's knowledge; sometimes it's even done in the name of the executive; by an underling with an agenda and the executive has to take action when the rogue or unsanctioned act is discovered.

At some point the Cabinet members will want to release a tell all book about their actions once Christie is out of Office (Governors Seat). Or Leak New Jersey State Documents to Wikileaks if they have too and explain why they did it.

Quote from: Brandon on January 15, 2014, 01:38:17 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 11:55:45 AM
The Goog shows popo stationed there in its (normal configuration) street view photos.

To elaborate,

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.853879,-73.966527&spn=0.001171,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,323.98,,0,12.61

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.854084,-73.967015&spn=0.001179,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854148,-73.967112&panoid=sFB2JvG8fbCZ-d9IdS4bGw&cbp=12,86.48,,0,10.51

I'm more impressed with the absolute lack of traffic at the toll booth in the first pic.  In the hundreds of times I've crossed the GWB in my life, I don't think I've ever seen it that empty.  I realize they probably did this at sunrise on a Sunday, but still...

That particular "clip" ends at the toll booth itself, because if you follow it through the booth, the car exits a different lane, they're following a different white car and there's much heavier traffic.

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 16, 2014, 10:08:34 AM
she was given additional strong incentives to keep her mouth shut.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcatholicphoenix.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2F0.jpg&hash=8a1d9080eb678af1621ae9f2802fd61e8ad9f9d7)

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Here is a brief take on this incident that I posted elsewhere:

Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game. I think it's a stretch to say that this will, or should, be a major sticking point in Christie's campaign if he runs for president. As of now, this appears to be an operation run by a couple of rogue staffers. If Christie had nothing to do with it, I would think that securing the resignations of those who orchestrated it will solve the problem and this will go away in two weeks, to be replaced by some other scandal du jour.

As for the incident itself, I think it's comical that the traffic jams were engineered as political payback for a mayor who didn't support Christie's gubernatorial re-election campaign. The mayor is not the one who suffered. It was the people of Fort Lee who suffered. From all the documents that have been released, it appears as if the mayor worked really hard to get the problem resolved, thus making him look better in the eyes of his constituency. I don't see how the Christie staffers thought that snarling traffic in Fort Lee would be proper revenge on the mayor for not supporting Christie. Their logic was faulty.

It wouldn't be the first time something this "comical" was alleged to have happened in NJ. About 3-4 years ago, when Christie decided to cut funding for NJ Transit, NJT announced total closure of all bus service in Morris County (where Christie is from) in alleged retaliation. Thee cut was later lessened, but half the bus routes did not survive (including the only bus line that served Menham, where Christie is from). Does Christie care? How often does he take the bus? It doesn't seem to matter.

While there isn't yet any direct evidence implicating Christie himself, I'm pretty sure he's guilty here.  He ignored the issue completely until the email leak.  He has a reputation as a vindictive bully.  His speech was uncharistically subdued and his hands, normally very animated, were glued to the podium, and he spent two hours saying little more than "I am sad".  His story is inconsistent.  He fired Bridget on the spot, with no investigation whatsoever.  He refuses to talk to people involved, instead talking with other staffers that presumably don't know anything  And finally, he refuses to open up to independent investigation despite saying he would co-operate fully with any investigation.

These aren't the actions of a man victimized by a staff member who overstepped their bounds.  These are the actions of someone trying to cover something up and draw attention away from it.

EDIT: And he's still saying that it might have been a traffic study.

Bridget previously said she had nothing to do with it.  But yet, there is plenty of written documentation that Bridget had a lot to do with it.  She lied.  Blatantly.  It wasn't even a "Well, I might've said something".  It was a flat-out no. 

What investigation do you want?

Quote from: vdeane on January 16, 2014, 04:42:29 PMit might have been a traffic study.

the first rule of traffic study club is you do not talk about traffic study club.

Quote from: mc78andrew on January 16, 2014, 05:26:08 AM
Have you ever run a large organization?  My guess is no.  You are not incompetent beucase you failed to stop one of your employees from doing something stupid.

Yes, it does make you incompetent.  If you can't keep your administration officials for a fuck up of these proportions, then you have no control over them, which makes you incapable of being governor.  Face it, Krispy Kreme is either 1) guilty of ordering the lanes closed (which makes him also guilty of manslaughter) or 2) incompetent of leading his administration.  Either way, he's gotta go.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2014, 10:31:35 AM
I would suspect that she would be covered under any applicable whistleblower protections if she does decide to spill any beans.

It's New Fucking Jersey.  If the governor wanted her to swim with the fishies, she would be wearing concrete shoes by now.

Quote
I also saw it noted that she used her personal email account to send the "Time for some traffic problems" email. That should have nominally protected her against prying eyes. Government emails are public records; private emails can only be obtained by a subpoena and I would think there would have to be some sort of probable cause to get the subpoena. If she sent that email to the Port Authority guy's government email address, she screwed up and opened up that can o'worms all on her own.

The emails in question were sent from a Yahoo account to a Gmail account.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 16, 2014, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: vdeane on January 16, 2014, 04:42:29 PMit might have been a traffic study.

the first rule of traffic study club is you do not talk about traffic study club.

It's posts like this that make me want a like button.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game.

LOL @ "left-leaning mainstream media"

The only reason you're defending Christie is because of your mancrush on all Republicans.  If Christie were a Democrat, you'd be calling for his head.

Before you accuse me of being partisan, I am not a Democrat nor a Republican and I would be calling for an investigation and/or a resignation if Obama himself ordered such a "traffic study".

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 05:44:27 PM(which makes him also guilty of manslaughter) or 2) incompetent of leading his administration.  Either way, he's gotta go.

Sounds like you'd be saying the same thing about MA Gov. Deval Patrick regarding the following excerpt (key point to your post in bold) from last Friday's Boston Herald commentary from columist Howie Carr (who's certainly no recent fan of Gov. Christie):

Judging from the gathering lynch mob (media), this is a bigger scandal than Benghazi, the IRS, Fast and Furious, NSA, Obamacare and Solyndra rolled into one. But why? Obama shut down the national parks and now his BFF (big fat friend) is just following in his footsteps, closing off some lanes on a bridge.

A 91-year-old woman may have died, and Democrats are up in arms. Maybe they wanted one of their new Obamacare death panels to take her off the board.

If only he'd been a Democrat, would Christie have been allowed to say, well, try this one on for size:

"What difference at this point does it make?"

That was Hillary sloughing off Benghazi last year.

But let's compare Christie to Gov. Deval Patrick. When is Deval going to have to go out and face the cameras wearing sackcloth and ashes like Christie did yesterday for 107 minutes in Trenton?

Look at the blood Deval's got on his hands – one child apparently dead (so far) in this DCF (Department of Children & Families) scandal. One murdered (so far) by drug dealers released because of Annie Dookhan's crimes at Deval's state crime lab. And 64 –yes, 64! – dead because Deval's minions didn't keep proper tabs on the New England Compounding Center pharmacy in Framingham.

More Americans have died because of Framingham than because of Benghazi – and that doesn't even include when Uncle Omar is out on a bat in his car.

And the media's reaction to Deval's scandals? Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Deval Patrick Should Do the Chris Christie Dance (http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/columnists/howie_carr/2014/01/carr_deval_patrick_should_do_chris_christie_dance)

Long story short, if Gov. Christie was a Democrat and pondering a Presidential run for 2016 and the same thing occurred (but the Fort Lee Mayor was a Republican); would you still be saying that he's got to go?

IMHO, I don't think there'd be that much of a nationwide media frenzy as there presently is had the political parties of Gov. Christie and Fort Lee Mayor Mark Sokolich been reversed.

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 06:13:23 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game.

LOL @ "left-leaning mainstream media"

The only reason you're defending Christie is because of your mancrush on all Republicans.  If Christie were a Democrat, you'd be calling for his head.

Before you accuse me of being partisan, I am not a Democrat nor a Republican and I would be calling for an investigation and/or a resignation if Obama himself ordered such a "traffic study".

I actually agree with Elkins on this- this reminds me of the Obama IRS scandal where the IRS was allegedly targeting Tea Party groups from a few months back. People who hate Christie are going to be pointing their fingers at him, and people who like Christie are going to blame his staff, just like with the Obama IRS scandal. At the end of the day, we learn nothing, and very few people's opinion of him is going to change. People like you who already thought Christie was a bully repub- hooray, you just got confirmation bias. People who like Christie and think he's a good governor...well, there's enough reason to believe it was his staff that a person could believe he had nothing to do with it and not really be wrong. It's ugly, sure, but every bigtime politician deals with a scandal at some point or another.

The other political party will capitalize on it, as the Democrats are very clearly doing here. You can't blame the Dems for doing that - that's just politics. As long as Republicans acknowledge that they would be doing the same thing in this situation if Christie were a Democrat and don't pretend they're morally superior because they wouldn't do this, I don't see the problem.

Quote from: corco on January 16, 2014, 07:09:00 PM

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 06:13:23 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game.

LOL @ "left-leaning mainstream media"

The only reason you're defending Christie is because of your mancrush on all Republicans.  If Christie were a Democrat, you'd be calling for his head.

Before you accuse me of being partisan, I am not a Democrat nor a Republican and I would be calling for an investigation and/or a resignation if Obama himself ordered such a "traffic study".

I actually agree with Elkins on this- this reminds me of the Obama IRS scandal where the IRS was allegedly targeting Tea Party groups from a few months back. People who hate Christie are going to be pointing their fingers at him, and people who like Christie are going to blame his staff, just like with the Obama IRS scandal. At the end of the day, we learn nothing, and very few people's opinion of him is going to change. People like you who already thought Christie was a bully repub- hooray, you just got confirmation bias. People who like Christie and think he's a good governor...well, there's enough reason to believe it was his staff that a person could believe he had nothing to do with it and not really be wrong. It's ugly, sure, but every bigtime politician deals with a scandal at some point or another.

As I said earlier, I would be calling for the resignation of any politician - Democratic, Republican, or independent - for pulling for such a stunt or for allowing it to happen.

Quote from: corco on January 16, 2014, 07:09:00 PM

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 06:13:23 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 09, 2014, 11:52:37 AM
Politically, this is much ado about nothing and appears to be an attempt by the left-leaning mainstream media to take out a potential GOP presidential candidate early in the game.

LOL @ "left-leaning mainstream media"

The only reason you're defending Christie is because of your mancrush on all Republicans.  If Christie were a Democrat, you'd be calling for his head.

Before you accuse me of being partisan, I am not a Democrat nor a Republican and I would be calling for an investigation and/or a resignation if Obama himself ordered such a "traffic study".

I actually agree with Elkins on this- this reminds me of the Obama IRS scandal where the IRS was allegedly targeting Tea Party groups from a few months back. People who hate Christie are going to be pointing their fingers at him, and people who like Christie are going to blame his staff, just like with the Obama IRS scandal. At the end of the day, we learn nothing, and very few people's opinion of him is going to change. People like you who already thought Christie was a bully repub- hooray, you just got confirmation bias. People who like Christie and think he's a good governor...well, there's enough reason to believe it was his staff that a person could believe he had nothing to do with it and not really be wrong. It's ugly, sure, but every bigtime politician deals with a scandal at some point or another.

The other political party will capitalize on it, as the Democrats are very clearly doing here. You can't blame the Dems for doing that - that's just politics. As long as Republicans acknowledge that they would be doing the same thing in this situation if Christie were a Democrat and don't pretend they're morally superior because they wouldn't do this, I don't see the problem.

So then the question going around - does this weigh him down in 2016? (That is NOT a fat joke. I didn't notice that until after I typed it.) I've been saying all along, he's too forceful for the national stage, so I don't think this matters.

Quote from: PHLBOS on January 16, 2014, 06:15:32 PMLong story short, if Gov. Christie was a Democrat and pondering a Presidential run for 2016 and the same thing occurred (but the Fort Lee Mayor was a Republican); would you still be saying that he's got to go?

I lean left, which means I usually want to see a Democrat in the White House.  I wouldn't say this scandal means Christie should resign as governor, though it would give me considerable pause if he were considering a run for the Presidency as a Democrat.  There are plenty of Democrats of national stature, like Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania and Martin O'Malley of Maryland, whom I dislike for various reasons and am happy are not thinking of running for President.  Rendell in particular strikes me as temperamentally quite similar to Christie.

QuoteIMHO, I don't think there'd be that much of a nationwide media frenzy as there presently is had the political parties of Gov. Christie and Fort Lee Mayor Mark Sokolich been reversed.

I don't think the analysis is that simple, largely because if the parties were reversed, people would be less scared about the possibility of Christie becoming President.  The Democrats already hold the White House and will have had it for two terms by 2016.  Unlike the Republicans, the Democrats have no postwar history of holding on to the White House for more than two terms.  Circumstances therefore seem to favor election of a Republican in 2016, never mind that this is a manifestation of the "law of averages" statistical fallacy.  This is why media coverage in the next couple of years (2014 and 2015) will focus much more sharply on red governors, especially blue-state reds who sell themselves on their ability to work both sides of the aisle and are known to have Presidential ambitions.

You're forgetting about Bengoatse. Those Alanlandian soldiers didn't kill themselves.

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 06:13:23 PM
The only reason you're defending Christie is because of your mancrush on all Republicans.  If Christie were a Democrat, you'd be calling for his head.

You haven't been paying attention. I think overall Christie's been a decent governor for New Jersey -- about as good as one could hope for in a New Jersey Republican -- but I won't support him if he runs for president. And given what I've been saying pretty publicly about McCain, Boehner, McConnell, etc., I don't think anyone can say I have a mancrush on Republicans. I don't think at this point that this controversy takes him out of the running for the 2016 nomination, but I won't complain if it does. I don't want him as the GOP nominee. It'd be McCain and Romney all over again.

I think the jury's still out on this. Let's see if he had any personal involvement. As of now I think this has been handled appropriately, if the facts are as they have been presented (Kelly denied any involvement and then it was found out that she pulled the trigger on the plan, so she rightly got fired).

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
I think the jury's still out on this. Let's see if he had any personal involvement. As of now I think this has been handled appropriately, if the facts are as they have been presented (Kelly denied any involvement and then it was found out that she pulled the trigger on the plan, so she rightly got fired).

Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 11:29:19 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
I think the jury's still out on this. Let's see if he had any personal involvement. As of now I think this has been handled appropriately, if the facts are as they have been presented (Kelly denied any involvement and then it was found out that she pulled the trigger on the plan, so she rightly got fired).

Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

We have? http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/15/22316680-poll-christie-cruising-through-bridge-scandal-so-far?lite (and that's from the definitely liberal media!)

NBC isn't the liberal media. MSNBC is barely to left of center.

CNN has been leaning right here lately.

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 11:29:19 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
I think the jury's still out on this. Let's see if he had any personal involvement. As of now I think this has been handled appropriately, if the facts are as they have been presented (Kelly denied any involvement and then it was found out that she pulled the trigger on the plan, so she rightly got fired).

Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

Even in New Jersey this statement's mostly false.  His favorability numbers have dropped a little, but not by much.  The people calling for his resignation are the same ones that call for his resignation every time he speaks.

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:15:04 AM
NBC isn't the liberal media. MSNBC is barely to left of center.

MSNBC is as far to the left as Fox is to the right.  Your view is distorted.

Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2014, 07:10:41 AM
MSNBC is as far to the left as Fox is to the right.

holy crap both sides do it

Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2014, 07:10:41 AM

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:15:04 AM
NBC isn't the liberal media. MSNBC is barely to left of center.

MSNBC is as far to the left as Fox is to the right.  Your view is distorted.

Yeah, I really like Fox's liberal-leaning morning show.

Quote from: BamaZeus on January 16, 2014, 11:37:50 AM

Quote from: Brandon on January 15, 2014, 01:38:17 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 11:55:45 AM
The Goog shows popo stationed there in its (normal configuration) street view photos.

To elaborate,

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.853879,-73.966527&spn=0.001171,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854007,-73.966802&panoid=RFpvjRhyO47x2oew4Juxtg&cbp=12,323.98,,0,12.61

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.854084,-73.967015&spn=0.001179,0.002642&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.854148,-73.967112&panoid=sFB2JvG8fbCZ-d9IdS4bGw&cbp=12,86.48,,0,10.51

I'm more impressed with the absolute lack of traffic at the toll booth in the first pic.  In the hundreds of times I've crossed the GWB in my life, I don't think I've ever seen it that empty.  I realize they probably did this at sunrise on a Sunday, but still...

That particular "clip" ends at the toll booth itself, because if you follow it through the booth, the car exits a different lane, they're following a different white car and there's much heavier traffic.

I've been across the GWB many times, day and night. And can never remember seeing the cash lanes that bare. Was there a big accident up the road that the GSV car missed? Though I've always used the EZ Pass lanes to the far left, it still was always backed up enough to start slowing down traffic before the road widened for the toll booths.

Subpoenas fly. Wildstein offers to sing for immunity. Christie lawyers up. I invest in popcorn futures.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/01/chris_christie_bridge_scandal_20_subpoenas_issued_governor_hires_attorney.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 17, 2014, 06:23:12 AM

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 11:29:19 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
I think the jury's still out on this. Let's see if he had any personal involvement. As of now I think this has been handled appropriately, if the facts are as they have been presented (Kelly denied any involvement and then it was found out that she pulled the trigger on the plan, so she rightly got fired).

Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

Even in New Jersey this statement's mostly false.  His favorability numbers have dropped a little, but not by much.  The people calling for his resignation are the same ones that call for his resignation every time he speaks.

Give it time, give it time.

Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2014, 07:10:41 AM

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:15:04 AM
NBC isn't the liberal media. MSNBC is barely to left of center.

MSNBC is as far to the left as Fox is to the right.  Your view is distorted.

If SPUI's view is "distorted", then you are a blind man. 

PS: NBC isn't MSNBC. Dumbfucks.

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 03:01:37 PM
PS: NBC isn't MSNBC. Dumbfucks.

Yes it is. Dumbfuck.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48180815/ns/business-us_business/t/msnbccom-becomes-nbcnewscom/

Quote from: corco on January 17, 2014, 03:08:08 PM

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 03:01:37 PM
PS: NBC isn't MSNBC. Dumbfucks.

Yes it is. Dumbfuck.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48180815/ns/business-us_business/t/msnbccom-becomes-nbcnewscom/

No it's not. Cockbag.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/business/media/07msnbc.html

QuoteBut according to internal memorandums obtained by The New York Times this week, the parents have concluded that the brand known as msnbc.com, a strictly objective news site, is widely confused with MSNBC, the cable television channel that has taken a strongly liberal bent in recent years.

Touche.

Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2014, 07:10:41 AM

Quote from: NE2 on January 17, 2014, 01:15:04 AM
NBC isn't the liberal media. MSNBC is barely to left of center.

MSNBC is as far to the left as Fox is to the right.  Your view is distorted.

By not limiting the political spectrum to American politics?

Quote from: Sykotyk on January 17, 2014, 12:08:10 PM
I've been across the GWB many times, day and night. And can never remember seeing the cash lanes that bare. Was there a big accident up the road that the GSV car missed? Though I've always used the EZ Pass lanes to the far left, it still was always backed up enough to start slowing down traffic before the road widened for the toll booths.

Could have been a Sunday morning; that's when I clinched that part of I-95, at it was smooth sailing across NYC.

Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2014, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: Sykotyk on January 17, 2014, 12:08:10 PM
I've been across the GWB many times, day and night. And can never remember seeing the cash lanes that bare. Was there a big accident up the road that the GSV car missed? Though I've always used the EZ Pass lanes to the far left, it still was always backed up enough to start slowing down traffic before the road widened for the toll booths.

Could have been a Sunday morning; that's when I clinched that part of I-95, at it was smooth sailing across NYC.

Based on the date of August 2011, it could have been right before or after Irene came through. I know around Plainsboro's GSVs, the imagery was taken in August 2011, roads are empty, and there's big puddles all around.

http://news.yahoo.com/christie-facing-gop-donors-bridge-scandal-boils-082248115--election.html

Christie At a donors meeting in Florida explaining his actions and how he resolve them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-usa-politics-christie-idUSBREA0F16P20140117

Now the state senate and assembly  has served  Twenty New Jersey officials, including top aides to Governor Chris Christie, were served with subpoenas on Friday as the state assembly begins its investigation into a massive bridge traffic jam that was apparently politically motivated.

Reuters.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.sacbee.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F01%2F13%2F18%2F59%2FK6VP8.St.4.jpeg&hash=2989cb1a9d7584ca83d4b01e060c8b956e87d3de)

Not a bad job rendering the signs... (http://www.sacbee.com/2014/01/14/6069763/new-jersey-turnpike.html)

Removed off-topic post that duplicates a repeat post in a separate thread, which was locked

Quote from: formulanone on January 20, 2014, 09:42:25 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.sacbee.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F01%2F13%2F18%2F59%2FK6VP8.St.4.jpeg&hash=2989cb1a9d7584ca83d4b01e060c8b956e87d3de)

Not a bad job rendering the signs... (http://www.sacbee.com/2014/01/14/6069763/new-jersey-turnpike.html)

Good Picture

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 11:29:19 PM
Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

By my "jury is still out" comment, I was referring to whether or not he was personally responsible for ordering it or had any prior knowledge of it happening. That's what's relevant, not what public opinion says.

I don't watch Jimmy Fallon (we fall asleep before he comes on and I'm not inclined to record the show), so I'm glad Backstreets.com posted the link to this:

Quote from: formulanone on January 20, 2014, 09:42:25 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.sacbee.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F01%2F13%2F18%2F59%2FK6VP8.St.4.jpeg&hash=2989cb1a9d7584ca83d4b01e060c8b956e87d3de)

Not a bad job rendering the signs... (http://www.sacbee.com/2014/01/14/6069763/new-jersey-turnpike.html)

Given that the cartoonist apparently lives in California (see the Sacramento Bee notation), the depiction of so many MUTCD compliant signs is indeed remarkable.

Quote from: roadman on January 22, 2014, 06:15:14 PM
Given that the cartoonist apparently lives in California (see the Sacramento Bee notation), the depiction of so many MUTCD compliant signs is indeed remarkable.

That's only his most recent gig:

Quote from: Wikipedia
At age 17, Ohman worked at the Minnesota Daily, the student newspaper of the University of Minnesota. At age 19, Ohman was the youngest cartoonist ever to be nationally syndicated. His first daily newspaper job was at The Columbus Dispatch, where he was hired in 1981. He then moved to the Detroit Free Press in 1982, and went to The Oregonian in 1983.

Edit: Removed Indent tags that don't exist on this board.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 22, 2014, 03:32:03 PM

Quote from: bugo on January 16, 2014, 11:29:19 PM
Nope.  The jury (the American public) has already found him guilty.  He might not have ordered it but he still is responsible for the actions of his administration.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, and Trenton is full of smoke these days.

By my "jury is still out" comment, I was referring to whether or not he was personally responsible for ordering it or had any prior knowledge of it happening. That's what's relevant, not what public opinion says.

Public opinion is the only thing that matters.  If the public deems him guilty, they will not vote for him or even demand his resignation or impeachment.  It's how it works in the real world.

N.Y. Times: Report Details Claim by Ally: Christie Knew of Bridge Lane Closings (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/nyregion/chris-christie-lawyer-bridge-scandal-report.html)

The fact remains...even though thousands of emails, text messages, phone calls, helicopter rides, smoke signals, sand writings, etc were looked at, not a single one shows that the Governor was ever involved.  Not even a blind carpon copy has been found with his name attached to it.

Many of his detractors have said he was aware of it, and many have said it will come out shortly that he was aware of it, but so far, no one has ever been able to directly link him to the incident, much less any knowledge of the incident.

Sure, the report was probably a waste of money, and probably did nothing more than keep alive the incident in people's minds.

It is back in the news I see after 2 months.    I see that it raised flames here with the usual liberal verses conservative propaganda, however as I see it both sides think that he is guilty.  Rush Limbaugh was happy to hear when evidence came up against him for the traffic nightmare.  When you have someone so far to the right as Mr. Limbaugh who wipes the butts of all Republicans (who Christie is the last time I checked) glad to see him caught at this, then it cannot really be a partisan thing like many here think.

There is also the fact that Christie made nice with the president when New Jersey was devastated by Sandy, and some on the right never forgave him for it, particularly since it came immediately before the presidential election. 

Quote from: roadman65 on March 28, 2014, 11:43:14 AMRush Limbaugh was happy to hear when evidence came up against him for the traffic nightmare.  When you have someone so far to the right as Mr. Limbaugh who wipes the butts of all Republicans (who Christie is the last time I checked) glad to see him caught at this, then it cannot really be a partisan thing like many here think.

It matters not to Rush Limbaugh that Chris Christie is a Republican.  It matters a great deal to him that Christie does not follow the extreme right-wing line that Limbaugh espouses.  Rush is happy this happened to Christie because (according to Rush) it diminishes his chances of being able to mount a credible campaigh for president in 2016.

N.Y. Times: Port Authority Chairman Resigns, Christie Announces (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/nyregion/christie-press-conference-on-bridge-scandal.html)

QuoteGov. Chris Christie of New Jersey announced on Friday that the chairman of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, David Samson, has resigned, the latest fallout from the scandal surrounding the closing of several traffic lanes at the George Washington Bridge.

QuoteMr. Christie said he had discussed the matter with Mr. Samson and they agreed that new leadership was an essential part of reforming the multi-billion dollar agency. Mr. Samson's resignation is effective immediately.

QuoteMr. Samson, a prominent lawyer and close ally of the Republican governor, was appointed by Mr. Christie to the authority's board in 2011.

QuoteThe authority, which operates the bridge and other vital transportation hubs in the region, is overseen jointly by Governor Christie and Gov. Andrew Cuomo of New York. It has an annual budget of $8.2 billion, and there are plans to spend another $27.6 billion in capital improvements over the next decade, larger than many state budgets.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 28, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
N.Y. Times: Port Authority Chairman Resigns, Christie Announces (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/29/nyregion/christie-press-conference-on-bridge-scandal.html)

QuoteGov. Chris Christie of New Jersey announced on Friday that the chairman of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, David Samson, has resigned, the latest fallout from the scandal surrounding the closing of several traffic lanes at the George Washington Bridge.

QuoteMr. Christie said he had discussed the matter with Mr. Samson and they agreed that new leadership was an essential part of reforming the multi-billion dollar agency. Mr. Samson's resignation is effective immediately.

QuoteMr. Samson, a prominent lawyer and close ally of the Republican governor, was appointed by Mr. Christie to the authority's board in 2011.

QuoteThe authority, which operates the bridge and other vital transportation hubs in the region, is overseen jointly by Governor Christie and Gov. Andrew Cuomo of New York. It has an annual budget of $8.2 billion, and there are plans to spend another $27.6 billion in capital improvements over the next decade, larger than many state budgets.

You don't reform an agency by cutting off the tip. You have to hack away at the roots.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2014, 06:30:57 AMThe fact remains...even though thousands of emails, text messages, phone calls, helicopter rides, smoke signals, sand writings, etc were looked at, not a single one shows that the Governor was ever involved.  Not even a blind carbon copy has been found with his name attached to it.

The problem is really one of reputation--even if this search for a latter-day equivalent of the partisan order has come up dry, it is difficult to believe that Christie wouldn't have approved of the bridge closure if he had been informed, at least until it led to genuine political blowback that continues to threaten his chances in the 2016 presidential election.

And given that his cover story has more holes in it than swiss cheese (and his body language during those speeches is very peculiar), you can't really prove that he wasn't involved either, and it is very much something he'd do.  Personally, I suspect that he was involved, wisely keeping this fact off the record, perhaps even with the understanding that Bridgit would take all the blame if word got out.

Quote from: J N Winkler on March 29, 2014, 10:56:46 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2014, 06:30:57 AMThe fact remains...even though thousands of emails, text messages, phone calls, helicopter rides, smoke signals, sand writings, etc were looked at, not a single one shows that the Governor was ever involved.  Not even a blind carbon copy has been found with his name attached to it.

The problem is really one of reputation--even if this search for a latter-day equivalent of the partisan order has come up dry, it is difficult to believe that Christie wouldn't have approved of the bridge closure if he had been informed, at least until it led to genuine political blowback that continues to threaten his chances in the 2016 presidential election.

All other assessments of Christie aside, he's got a huge reputation as a bully.  When something like this comes from one person removed from him, even if he never knew it people are going to believe he knew. But it still doesn't look much better to have hired people who did this.