If you plan to drive the new Kokomo Bypass, it will be really chilly and I do not mean that the experience is chilling either. Today, from the Weather Channel, Kokomo, IN is at minus 14 with a minus 34 wind chill. In addition TWC is issuing a warning to limit outdoor exposure to a minimum as its "dangerous windchill," so it has got to be bad. Even Dodge City, KS is warmer at 17.
Other areas of record chills are in Minneapolis, Chicago, and even Indy as this Arctic Blast is really hitting us badly. Atlanta is at 5 degrees, and where I live got down to 35. Some experts are saying that this is record breaking material and it has never got this bad.
I was disappointed that the temperature display in the car only got down to 8F this morning. Thermometer in our kitchen window says 2.
Polarfleece-lined jeans feel nice when it's chilly outside like this.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 07, 2014, 08:52:36 AM
Some experts are saying that this is record breaking material and it has never got this bad.
If it is breaking a record, then yes, it has never been that bad!
Now, record breaking temps can occur more/less by random chance. Today in Philly, for example, the low was 5 or 6 degrees, which broke the previous record of 7 degrees. But half the days in January have record low temperatures below 0. If today's weather occurred 3 days from now, it wouldn't have even been close to the record low of -5.
It was -7 up here on Sunday, and this past December we had a streak of about 5 or 6 days below zero. (Now this isn't odd for East River, but for the Black Hills it's just strange and unusual.)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 07, 2014, 09:13:11 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 07, 2014, 08:52:36 AM
Some experts are saying that this is record breaking material and it has never got this bad.
If it is breaking a record, then yes, it has never been that bad!
.....
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
(No offense, roadman. But that's pretty damn funny.)
Now now. Stop bullying him. Or, if you're in Alanland, stop billying him.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 07, 2014, 08:52:36 AM
If you plan to drive the new Kokomo Bypass, it will be really chilly and I do not mean that the experience is chilling either. Today, from the Weather Channel, Kokomo, IN is at minus 14 with a minus 34 wind chill. In addition TWC is issuing a warning to limit outdoor exposure to a minimum as its "dangerous windchill," so it has got to be bad. Even Dodge City, KS is warmer at 17.
Other areas of record chills are in Minneapolis, Chicago, and even Indy as this Arctic Blast is really hitting us badly. Atlanta is at 5 degrees, and where I live got down to 35. Some experts are saying that this is record breaking material and it has never got this bad.
Chicago's lowest recorded low (since 1870) is still unbroken at -27 F (January 20, 1985). It has been worse; however, the -16 F did break the record for the low on January 6, and the -2 F broke the record for lowest high on the same date. We also had the lowest temperature at noon (-14 F) since January 18, 1994. http://www.crh.noaa.gov/news/display_cmsstory.php?wfo=lot&storyid=99358&source=0
Meanwhile, Europe is seeing record high temps for this time of the year. It seems that all cold went to North America.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 07, 2014, 10:29:50 AM
Meanwhile, Europe is seeing record high temps for this time of the year. It seems that all cold went to North America.
Highs in Frankfurt the next 3 days: 56ºF, 55ºF, 54ºF. Those are temperatures to die for in January.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 07, 2014, 04:08:48 PM
Highs in Frankfurt the next 3 days: 56ºF, 55ºF, 54ºF. Those are temperatures to die for in January.
That was yesterday's weather in most of NJ.
Had a new record low here overnight in Pittsburgh, -9F. The old record was -5F.
Quote from: SD Mapman on January 07, 2014, 09:21:29 AM
It was -7 up here on Sunday, and this past December we had a streak of about 5 or 6 days below zero. (Now this isn't odd for East River, but for the Black Hills it's just strange and unusual.)
What is strange and unusual for East River is -50F windchills. Over in Minnesota, the governor closed all schools in the state on Monday, and pretty much all of East River followed suit from what I saw.
Cincinnati, January 1977. -25F and the Ohio River froze over. People were walking back and forth from Cincinnati to Covington, KY on the river.
Cincinnati, January 1982. -9F with a wind chill of -59F. The day of the Freezer Bowl game between the San Diego Chargers and the Bengals.
Cincinnati, January 2014. -7F and just plain cold. But, then again, it is January. And, it has happened before.
Random question for the weather/TWC geeks: anyone get any Intellistar screenshots of these temperatures?
Sort of unrelated, but I found it cool: A massive wind that blew snow to the point where cities were indistinguishable around the Great Lakes. 1/6/14, 15:14 EST. http://sploid.gizmodo.com/jaw-dropping-photo-of-the-frozen-great-lakes-looks-like-1496557704
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F19bu7j4j8cf95jpg%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=6febf69d35d59a657dc241ad4fa63325c2cc003f)
Figure I reuse this topic as another major cold outbreak is possible for Monday through Wednesday. Some of the temps in Northern Plains and Midwest may not get above -10 for highs and dip as low as -30 to -40
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
New Jersey and most of the northeast is still under the grip of some rather cold air... including too many snowstorms that keep making roads treacherous.
Quote from: realjd on January 25, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
Anything above 40 degrees and I will wear summer clothing (t-shirt, shorts). Anything below 40 degrees, but above 20 degrees I will wear a sweatshirt and shorts. Anything below 10 degrees, I'll consider pants with a sweatshirt. The lower-half of my body generates a ridiculous amount of heat that allows me to be in non-seasonal clothing while others freeze their asses off. In summer; I practically swelter without air conditioning. For example, during my graduation ceremony in 2012, it was a real-feel of 109 degrees... the school let us wear shorts and t-shirts because WE HAD THE CEREMONY ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD. If you want to know what that feels like, I'll tell you: go to Miami in the summer and stand in a non-shaded area while the sun is beaming directly onto you. Now put a gown on. Congratulations - you are probably sweating. If not, you cheated.
The only thing I hate is snow. Cold weather? Haven't cared about it for 8 years now. Though usually Jersey never gets this much cold weather, let alone this much snow.
Quote from: realjd on January 25, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
Northeastern Massachusetts: Average 25, standard deviation 10.
If you don't know what that means, it is between 10° and 40˚ about 85% of the time. Sometimes it will be higher or lower, but it is rare.
The Midwest is often below 0°F though.
Another fun fact: Temperature is always in degrees Celsius if the sun is rising or setting. At least according to Google Maps. I have no idea why this happens.
Side note: Is the degree symbol like 25° or 25˚? (Yes, they are different.)
Quote from: realjd on January 25, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
60's is still short sleeves and shorts weather. In some parts of the country, we call that summer.
Quote from: Brandon on January 25, 2014, 09:46:42 PM
Quote from: realjd on January 25, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
60's is still short sleeves and shorts weather. In some parts of the country, we call that summer.
It's all relative. If it's been in the 20's, 60 degrees is working outside in shorts. If it's been in the 90's, 60 degrees is bundling up in long sleeves and a blanket.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2014, 10:02:14 PM
Quote from: Brandon on January 25, 2014, 09:46:42 PM
Quote from: realjd on January 25, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
75 and sunny here in Key West. It's still cold up north? I had to break out a sweatshirt last night when it got down into the 60's.
60's is still short sleeves and shorts weather. In some parts of the country, we call that summer.
It's all relative. If it's been in the 20's, 60 degrees is working outside in shorts. If it's been in the 90's, 60 degrees is bundling up in long sleeves and a blanket.
This is true. Here in the DFW area, in the summer the 60s can feel cold when the recent highs are 95-105. In the winter, temperatures in the 60s are glorious. Regarding record cold, some areas around here had lows below 10 this month, which is a rare event. We're on a roller coaster now, with lows near 10 Thursday, then highs in the 70s tomorrow, and lows below 20 coming again Monday night. I kinda like it; I enjoy contrast.
No offense to anyone in warmer states like Florida (as these cold snaps are unusual to near record territory on occasion) but seeing your news media outlets go ape because it dropped below 65 degrees makes me laugh :-D :-D
Watch out. Water freezes 40 degrees cooler than it is outside. Floridian drivers might lose control of their vehicles on the thought of possible ice and get an 80 car pileup like that Wisconsin freeway.
It got to 70 on Sunday in northeast Oklahoma and it's forecast to get down to 8 on Monday night.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 27, 2014, 01:47:08 AM
Watch out. Water freezes 40 degrees cooler than it is outside. Floridian drivers might lose control of their vehicles on the thought of possible ice and get an 80 car pileup like that Wisconsin freeway.
I-94 in Indiana by Michigan City is the pileup I believe you're thinking, unless there was another one :-o
It's 38ºF in Seattle right now. brrrr. :P
Seattle is the northernmost largest city in the continental US too, but the Pacific keeps the west coast mild. West Coast is best coast; east coast is least coast.
Quote from: ET21 on January 27, 2014, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 27, 2014, 01:47:08 AM
Watch out. Water freezes 40 degrees cooler than it is outside. Floridian drivers might lose control of their vehicles on the thought of possible ice and get an 80 car pileup like that Wisconsin freeway.
I-94 in Indiana by Michigan City is the pileup I believe you're thinking, unless there was another one :-o
Maybe another one? The one on I-94 was about 46 vehicles, of which 19 were trucks. It's still under investigation.
As I type, it's only 0 degrees F outside with a windchill somewhere south of -20.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 27, 2014, 01:51:12 PM
It's 38ºF in Seattle right now. brrrr. :P
Seattle is the northernmost largest city in the continental US too, but the Pacific keeps the west coast mild. West Coast is best coast; east coast is least coast.
Ha. I'd rather get snow and no work than a bunch of rain any day.
It's 37 here at the moment, though wind chill is making it feel like 27.
It's 60°F here today. Tomorrow, 25°F, maybe.
Quote from: Brandon on January 27, 2014, 02:17:10 PM
Quote from: ET21 on January 27, 2014, 01:12:54 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 27, 2014, 01:47:08 AM
Watch out. Water freezes 40 degrees cooler than it is outside. Floridian drivers might lose control of their vehicles on the thought of possible ice and get an 80 car pileup like that Wisconsin freeway.
I-94 in Indiana by Michigan City is the pileup I believe you're thinking, unless there was another one :-o
Maybe another one? The one on I-94 was about 46 vehicles, of which 19 were trucks. It's still under investigation.
As I type, it's only 0 degrees F outside with a windchill somewhere south of -20.
Yes, there was another one which was partially captured on one of WisDOT's traffic cams (http://youtu.be/XHC27viPYtA) on US41/45 northwest of Milwaukee (Menomonee Falls/Germantown 'burbs) back in December 2013. There was another large one just south of that vantage point as part of the same snowstorm.
Quote from: Takumi on January 27, 2014, 02:48:41 PM
It's 60°F here today. Tomorrow, 25°F, maybe.
Yep. The weatherman (WAVY-10, to be precise) just told me to expect either a foot of snow or none at all. Gotta love Virginia weather.
Maybe not so much to do with record colds, but Louisiana will be getting snow again tonight which makes the second time in a week. In central, southern, and coastal Louisiana. This NEVER happens. Last Friday's was actually fluffy snow, not the slush we usually get when snow is forecasted.
Quote from: ET21 on January 25, 2014, 11:43:35 PM
No offense to anyone in warmer states like Florida (as these cold snaps are unusual to near record territory on occasion) but seeing your news media outlets go ape because it dropped below 65 degrees makes me laugh :-D :-D
I was in Florida when it hit 37 outside at night, and it was in the upper 40s in the day. People knew we weren't from around there since we had proper coats on. The biggest problem is the houses there aren't insulated worth a damn and those hurricane rated glass windows are really drafty. The bigger problem were the brownouts from the record power usage from people running their electric heat.
^^ I don't think I've seen electric heat in use. Around here, you see gas-forced air as the most common with radiant heat (radiators) as a distant second. Somehow I think my vision of giant space heaters (for electric heat) is somewhat inaccurate.
Quote from: Brandon on January 27, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
^^ I don't think I've seen electric heat in use. Around here, you see gas-forced air as the most common with radiant heat (radiators) as a distant second. Somehow I think my vision of giant space heaters (for electric heat) is somewhat inaccurate.
Its a heat pump system that provides air conditioning and heat. Basically it runs in reverse to provide heat, but once the temps go below 50, a resistive heating element kicks in since air-to-air heat pumps can't pull much heat from the outside air. The outside unit sometimes has to run a de-icing cycle as well as the elements freeze up. Its not just a Florida thing either. Newer seasonal residences in NJ have heat pumps in areas that don't have natural gas service.
Around here we have gravity steam heat. Dead simple to maintain and it even works without utility power!
Quote from: Brandon on January 27, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
^^ I don't think I've seen electric heat in use. Around here, you see gas-forced air as the most common with radiant heat (radiators) as a distant second. Somehow I think my vision of giant space heaters (for electric heat) is somewhat inaccurate.
College apartment. Everything in our place is electric, including the heat. So if our power goes out, we're basically screwed
Not only that ... My house is all-electric, and electric heat is ridiculously inefficient and expensive. I can run my air conditioner all summer and my bill won't be half what it is in the winter. And this is Texas.
Quote from: ET21 on January 27, 2014, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Brandon on January 27, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
^^ I don't think I've seen electric heat in use. Around here, you see gas-forced air as the most common with radiant heat (radiators) as a distant second. Somehow I think my vision of giant space heaters (for electric heat) is somewhat inaccurate.
College apartment. Everything in our place is electric, including the heat. So if our power goes out, we're basically screwed
College apartment
and my first apartment out of college (should have kept on looking :pan: ). Those had a wall unit HVAC (like you find in a typical cheap hotel) in the main room and electric baseboard heaters in the bedrooms and bathrooms. I could just see the local PoCo licking their chops when winter was arriving. At least where I live now has a gas furnace. I can't imagine the electric bill if I was still in the old place with cold snaps we've been having lately. :crazy:
Quote from: ET21 on January 27, 2014, 07:41:36 PM
So if our power goes out, we're basically screwed
As is most everyone, since you need power to run a furnace, heat pump, etc.
Quote from: kj3400 on January 27, 2014, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on January 27, 2014, 01:51:12 PM
It's 38ºF in Seattle right now. brrrr. :P
Seattle is the northernmost largest city in the continental US too, but the Pacific keeps the west coast mild. West Coast is best coast; east coast is least coast.
Ha. I'd rather get snow and no work than a bunch of rain any day.
It's 37 here at the moment, though wind chill is making it feel like 27.
If we get any snow, school is cancelled, and most transportation systems fail here. We've had a pretty dry season so far with only 3 rain storms. We're having wildfires.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 07, 2014, 09:13:11 AM
Now, record breaking temps can occur more/less by random chance. Today in Philly, for example, the low was 5 or 6 degrees, which broke the previous record of 7 degrees. But half the days in January have record low temperatures below 0. If today's weather occurred 3 days from now, it wouldn't have even been close to the record low of -5.
Try record HIGH temperatures in California, plus a record number of dry days during the rainy season (late-September through April). The blame is because of a high-pressure system out in the Pacific Ocean that is pushing all the weather north. This is causing a bad drought, and Folsom
Lake Pond is at level lower than the 1976-1977. Time to rip out that lawn and put in that rock garden.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 28, 2014, 04:24:19 AM
Try record HIGH temperatures in California
indeed. it was 92 in Lakeside the other day. I miss winter!
luckily it's still in the high 30s in the early mornings. perfect weather for working in the yard.
^^ How the hell can you miss winter when you don't really have winter. When I went to San Diego, day after Christmas in 2011, it was 75F at the San Diego Zoo. That's not winter. Winter is snow, temperatures below 32F, and freezing your ass off. 75F is fricking summer.
When I lived in Tucson we called it winter- but winter is looked at as summer is in colder climates- time to be outside and enjoy the weather and go swimming and all that. Summer becomes like the northern winter, just with blistering miserable heat instead of freezing your ass off. Personally, I prefer being cold to hot which is a big part of why I moved back north. At least in winter you can put a coat on and there is a lot to do outside. In 115 degree heat there is nothing to do but go inside and try not to melt.
Quote from: corco on January 28, 2014, 02:37:18 PM
When I lived in Tucson we called it winter- but winter is looked at as summer is in colder climates- time to be outside and enjoy the weather and go swimming and all that. Summer becomes like the northern winter, just with blistering miserable heat instead of freezing your ass off. Personally, I prefer being cold to hot which is a big part of why I moved back north. At least in winter you can put a coat on and there is a lot to do outside. In 115 degree heat there is nothing to do but go inside and try not to melt.
Yes. Yes. We kinda had it bad this year when August was basically 95-105 degrees all month, and then there was a week in December when it didn't get above zero.
Quote from: Brandon on January 28, 2014, 11:57:52 AM
Winter is snow, temperatures below 32F, and freezing your ass off.
I am aware of the concept. I've even specifically taken vacations in cold climates because I enjoy that kind of thing.
that said, for where I live, a daytime high of about 75 and an overnight low of 31 is what January is supposed to feel like. it's been more like 36-85 recently. I can dig the 36 (like I said before, it's perfect working weather) but anything over about 60 and I find it very tough to work outside.
That is quite the temperature variance! :-o
Quote from: Brandon on January 28, 2014, 11:57:52 AM
How the hell can you miss winter when you don't really have winter. When I went to San Diego, day after Christmas in 2011, it was 75F at the San Diego Zoo. That's not winter. Winter is snow, temperatures below 32F, and freezing your ass off. 75F is fricking summer.
For the 36+ years that I have lived in Sacramento, we have two seasons: hot and dry, and cold and wet. The normal rain season runs until mid-October until early-April. We have not been getting rain. It does get cold, but not 32-degree cold except in winter mornings (and we had a spell of that in December).
Georgia, Alabama, Florida and the Carolina's are completely screwed tonight. It is Snowmageddon down in Birmingham and Atlanta. People are stranded in their cars!
EDIT TO ADD: Case in point. This is I-75 near Marietta, GA. I pulled this off twitter.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fa1ArZwk.jpg&hash=2e12b2bb60b10b277602d9866e2a2eeb1739fa01)
How one inch of snow can cripple an entire region, or at least areas that only saw snow. That is one of the worst ice storms I've seen in my life for the Gulf/Carolina coastlines and a first time in seeing Winter Storm Warnings for FLORIDA! :wow: :wow:
Quote from: ET21 on January 29, 2014, 01:11:04 AM
How one inch of snow can cripple an entire region, or at least areas that only saw snow. That is one of the worst ice storms I've seen in my life for the Gulf/Carolina coastlines and a first time in seeing Winter Storm Warnings for FLORIDA! :wow: :wow:
I live 40 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico. It has been sleeting here since 4pm. The ground is white, covered with sleet. My front storm door is frozen shut. We had a couple hours of heavy sleet. I live in a mobile home and it was so noisy with the sleet hitting the outside walls and roof that I had to turn up the volume of the tv. crazy!!
It is even sleeting at the beaches. I've lived here 33 yrs, never saw anything like this.
Now the wind is picking up so I expect to be w/out electricity soon. I have the lanterns, flashlights and firewood nearby. I have hurricane supplies with sterno, food & a manuel can-opener at the ready. Bring it Mother............Nature! :-)
When I woke up this morning, my thermometer read 1 degree (Fahrenheit) below zero.
Quote from: JMoses24 on January 28, 2014, 11:58:47 PM
Georgia, Alabama, Florida and the Carolina's are completely screwed tonight. It is Snowmageddon down in Birmingham and Atlanta. People are stranded in their cars!
They're only stranded by the morons in front who refuse to move in the snow.
Snowmageddon my ass. This is an inch or two, not a foot or two. The Groundhog Day Blizzard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_blizzard) it's not (21 inches of snow). Now
that was a major snow event.
Quote from: Brandon on January 30, 2014, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: JMoses24 on January 28, 2014, 11:58:47 PM
Georgia, Alabama, Florida and the Carolina's are completely screwed tonight. It is Snowmageddon down in Birmingham and Atlanta. People are stranded in their cars!
They're only stranded by the morons in front who refuse to move in the snow. Snowmageddon my ass. This is an inch or two, not a foot or two. The Groundhog Day Blizzard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_blizzard) it's not (21 inches of snow). Now that was a major snow event.
While I do agree that two inches is nothing, let me also point out they also got between a tenth and a half inch of ice on top of that. I don't care where you are, but when you put that amount of ice and snow into an area like the Gulf Coast and Southeast that doesn't see this often, you get the gridlock and shutdowns.
Yes - a foot of snow in the Midwest and the ploughs are all out and normal order relatively quickly restored, as they are pros at this.
An inch of snow forecast in Deep South and the, hmm, what-ja-ma-call-its, well they need finding, or borrowing from elsewhere as we don't get much call for those things - something to do with breakfast - and then when we find them, we then have to remember what we need to do and then do that. And as it is cold, but not cold enough to be below freezing all the time, the snow melts and refreezes, making a slippery surface. So we just stay home, unless we're driving a gritter (that's what those doohickeys are called!) and getting rid of the white stuff we see in Christmas films...
Quote from: Brandon on January 30, 2014, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: JMoses24 on January 28, 2014, 11:58:47 PM
Georgia, Alabama, Florida and the Carolina's are completely screwed tonight. It is Snowmageddon down in Birmingham and Atlanta. People are stranded in their cars!
They're only stranded by the morons in front who refuse to move in the snow. Snowmageddon my ass. This is an inch or two, not a foot or two. The Groundhog Day Blizzard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_blizzard) it's not (21 inches of snow). Now that was a major snow event.
Yeah but the inch or two of snow was on top of at least a half inch of ice.
At least here in FL, I-10 is still closed in multiple places. FDOT only has a handful of sand trucks and has zero access to salt. We're just not equipped to handle winter weather down here.
One of the counties up in the panhandle went store to store buying retail salt to spread by hand because they couldn't even find a vendor for road salt.
if you're gonna slide, slide off the road. make room for those who can drive.
Quote from: english si on January 30, 2014, 01:27:38 PM
And as it is cold, but not cold enough to be below freezing all the time, the snow melts and refreezes, making a slippery surface.
That's what salt is for. The amount of snow they got, they wouldn't have even needed plows if they would have salted the road.
I was reading a facebook comment from a southerner who said they had no warning because the national weather service called for a "light dusting". News flash, southerners: a light dusting does not mean the snow sublimates before it hits the ground. It means exactly what you got. And yes, the freezing point of water DOES affect the weather.
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 02:44:03 PM
Quote from: english si on January 30, 2014, 01:27:38 PM
And as it is cold, but not cold enough to be below freezing all the time, the snow melts and refreezes, making a slippery surface.
That's what salt is for. The amount of snow they got, they wouldn't have even needed plows if they would have salted the road.
And if you lack salt, sand works well. Apparently Florida has a bunch of it (/sarc). Enough friction from the sand at those temperatures will remove most, if not all of the ice in short order. A specialized salt truck isn't even required. Just tip a dump truck at a shallow angle and let the sand out slowly.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow-storm-102839.html#.Uuq0qvtc_2Q Atlanta is having a hard time among many. One person blamed the trouble on lack of mass transit, nonetheless preventable or unpreventable the city is in trouble.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2014, 03:37:44 PM
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow-storm-102839.html#.Uuq0qvtc_2Q Atlanta is having a hard time among many. One person blamed the trouble on lack of mass transit, nonetheless preventable or unpreventable the city is in trouble.
Even mass transit can be affected by weather. We had a lot of switching problems due to the excessively (-20F) cold weather on the rails. The switches would freeze solid and had to be manually thawed. Usually they're remotely thawed. Granted, Atlanta had more "normal" winter temperatures (normal for Chicago) that rail switches usually work well in.
From what I've read, they did not prepare as they believed (wrongly) that the storm would go south and east of the city.
I've read a lot about staggering dismissals. Sounds good in theory...does nothing in situations like this. The conditions were drivable; but once a few accidents occurred, the roads were blocked. If people were dismissed in stages, we would think they would listen to radio stations reporting the accidents, and go elsewhere. Problem is - there were accidents all over the place. People leaving late would have wound up in the same traffic jams.
Another thing to remember: Traffic Lights. Many lights are timed for rush hours and regular traffic. When a lot of people are dismissed at noontime, even if the roads were dry, there would be traffic jams.
People drive slower in snow. That's a duh. But it also means you can't get as much traffic through a certain point in the same amount of time. Have a bunch of cars try to get thru an intersection going 5 mph - there wouldn't be as many people going thru the intersection as normal, regardless of the other conditions.
There's a lot to look at besides the fact that everyone got out at the same time. If everyone got out at 5pm on a sunny Tuesday in July, traffic would be quite heavy, but moving. Well, unless there's a 10 car pileup blocking the entire highway.
You guys win. You northerners are clearly better than us inbred southern hicks in every possible way.
Seriously though, even if we had adequate resources, that doesn't mean we're able to execute as well. Lack of experience is a big factor. Who do you think is going to perform better during a snow storm: a highway agency that salts/sands the roads only once every two or three years or a highway agency that salts/sands the roads multiple times a month during the winter? All other things being equal, my money is on the crews that do it regularly.
Quote from: Brandon on January 30, 2014, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 30, 2014, 03:37:44 PM
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow-storm-102839.html#.Uuq0qvtc_2Q Atlanta is having a hard time among many. One person blamed the trouble on lack of mass transit, nonetheless preventable or unpreventable the city is in trouble.
Even mass transit can be affected by weather. We had a lot of switching problems due to the excessively (-20F) cold weather on the rails. The switches would freeze solid and had to be manually thawed. Usually they're remotely thawed. Granted, Atlanta had more "normal" winter temperatures (normal for Chicago) that rail switches usually work well in.
From what I've read, they did not prepare as they believed (wrongly) that the storm would go south and east of the city.
Here in the DC area, the Metrorail system shuts down all portions not located in tunnels if we get more than eight inches of snow. But even without snow, problems happen–last week, a rail cracked on a ground-level segment, allegedly due to the single-digit temperatures.
I do find some of the misinformation that's out there amusing, though. Last week I heard a radio reporter say the very cold wind chill was causing washer fluid to freeze when it hit the window. That's not wind chill. Wind chill is a measure of the perceived decrease in air temperature when moving air contacts bare skin. It has nothing to do with fluid freezing on the windshield unless the temperature is
extremely cold, much colder than it was here last week, because with respect to inanimate objects the only function of wind chill is to cause them to reach the ambient temperature in a shorter time than might otherwise be the case. In the case of the washer fluid, there simply isn't enough time for it to freeze before your wipers wipe it away unless the temperature is a good deal colder than it was here last week. (I've had washer fluid freeze on my windshield when the ambient temperature was around —30°C, but it may have been partially my fault because I may have been using fluid not rated for temperatures that cold.)
I have sympathy for the people going through this. Last month we had a winter storm in the DFW area, with sleet melting and refreezing into 3 to 4 inches of ice. Due to prolonged cold, it took about 5 days to clear, with road graders being used to scrape ice off the freeways. Highways were clogged for days. Gas stations started running out of gas and stores and restaurants started running out of food. I'm sure we would have done better with a thousand salt trucks and five million pounds of salt, and frequent experience preventing and treating ice formation. Atlanta could have done better, too.
You don't buy a house so big that every person who ever comes to visit has his own room. You buy a house you can afford that meets your regular needs, and make do when the needs are bigger. We can buy a few more trucks, and use computer simulations to figure out the best ways to use them, but unless we have another ice age, it just isn't feasible to build the capacity to respond to ice as well as northerners, who, themselves, aren't exactly immune to ice and snow problems.
Quote from: wxfree on January 30, 2014, 04:27:39 PMYou don't buy a house so big that every person who ever comes to visit has his own room. You buy a house you can afford that meets your regular needs, and make do when the needs are bigger.
Usually a bigger home is located on a bigger piece of property, and thus, potentially more taxes paid to pay this kind of stuff. Just saying...Then again, if there were snow plows and tons of salt laying idle for five years, someone (or some oversight committee) would be outraged at their lack of use and wasted expenditure.
In this age of weather prediction, it's generally less excusable to not declare a "watch" in advance of a snow storm, and to take it seriously, for some area of the nation that isn't prepared for snow and ice. The South has no problem doing so for tornadoes, hurricanes, and floods...
Quote from: formulanone on January 30, 2014, 04:35:00 PM
In this age of weather prediction, it's generally less excusable to not declare a "watch" in advance of a snow storm, and to take it seriously, for some area of the nation that isn't prepared for snow and ice. The South has no problem doing so for tornadoes, hurricanes, and floods...
I think this is the real point. I remember years back it wasn't a big deal to stay home when the rare ice storm happened. These days everyone seems to think their job is the most important in the world and they must be there regardless of weather. Atlanta should have stayed home, which would make it easier to plow and spread salt. Staying home for five days is questionable, but maybe if we'd stayed home one or two days during our storm, crews could have treated the roads more effectively and gotten things cleared up faster. We knew it was going to happen and should have had a lot fewer people with non-essential jobs out on their daily commutes.
You can't spend half the winter at home, so places where this happens all the time need to be able to clear it out. Places where it happens once every few years, or less, can just take the day off.
It's worth noting that winter snow storms in the south are the new normal. I don't know why they keep acting like it's unusual, given that there's been one every year now for a while.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
I've read a lot about staggering dismissals. Sounds good in theory...does nothing in situations like this. The conditions were drivable; but once a few accidents occurred, the roads were blocked. If people were dismissed in stages, we would think they would listen to radio stations reporting the accidents, and go elsewhere. Problem is - there were accidents all over the place. People leaving late would have wound up in the same traffic jams.
Another thing to remember: Traffic Lights. Many lights are timed for rush hours and regular traffic. When a lot of people are dismissed at noontime, even if the roads were dry, there would be traffic jams.
People drive slower in snow. That's a duh. But it also means you can't get as much traffic through a certain point in the same amount of time. Have a bunch of cars try to get thru an intersection going 5 mph - there wouldn't be as many people going thru the intersection as normal, regardless of the other conditions.
There's a lot to look at besides the fact that everyone got out at the same time. If everyone got out at 5pm on a sunny Tuesday in July, traffic would be quite heavy, but moving. Well, unless there's a 10 car pileup blocking the entire highway.
I've been wondering about this. Does Atlanta not have school buses? Where I'm from, the kids would be bussed home. Their parents would NOT be going to school to pick them up.
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:45:35 PM
It's worth noting that winter snow storms in the south are the new normal. I don't know why they keep acting like it's unusual, given that there's been one every year now for a while.
The south as a whole gets a winter storm or two each year but not any given city. ATL's last bad storm was 2011 IIRC. One year it will be Dallas, then Birmingham, then Charleston, then DC. It's not frequent enough for any one place for them to get good at handling it.
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:45:35 PM
I've been wondering about this. Does Atlanta not have school buses? Where I'm from, the kids would be bussed home. Their parents would NOT be going to school to pick them up.
I thought it was said that they DID have school buses, but they weren't able to drop the kids off at their houses because they were getting stuck in the same traffic, so at a certain point they gave up and went back to the schools. I remember being stuck on a bus until 7:30 one night because a tornado had struck my area (both my school and individual neighborhood was fine) and we had to navigate the destruction.
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 02:44:03 PM
Quote from: english si on January 30, 2014, 01:27:38 PM
And as it is cold, but not cold enough to be below freezing all the time, the snow melts and refreezes, making a slippery surface.
That's what salt is for. The amount of snow they got, they wouldn't have even needed plows if they would have salted the road.
They wouldn't have needed snow ploughs regardless. But even if they had used real salt (rather than sand), the thaw-freeze cycle that occurred would have made a mess still - I've seen it in Southern England sometimes. Certainly black ice is a big risk even after salting. The Atlanta photo where the interstate was a sheet of ice shows that the issue was more the ice left behind by melting snow than the amount of snowfall.
Quote from: english si on January 30, 2014, 08:53:59 PMsnow ploughs
Is that a common British spelling? I've never seen that one before. I've seen both spellings for the farm implements but modern vehicles are always "plow".
Glad for Global warming or it would be worse.
Quote from: leroys73 on January 30, 2014, 10:11:56 PM
Glad for Global warming or it would be worse.
And this thread was going so well...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fgifs%2FAbandon_183a9d_2290882.gif&hash=0cb158e5204567c10c9511d3b3ee50e9a35e03a9)
Quote from: leroys73 on January 30, 2014, 10:11:56 PM
Glad for Global warming or it would be worse.
Actually, global warming caused the whole thing, by disrupting the polar airmass. Warmer Arctic = closer in temperature to temperate areas = easier for polar vortex to droop down over North America = more snow and cold.
The problem was twofold.
1) A bad forecast, which misplaced several features in the synoptic setup by at least 100 miles (although we don't yet know what was missed). In Alabama, to use an example, the heaviest snow was expected to set up around the Montgomery area. That didn't happen...instead it was located right over Birmingham metro. Montgomery got some snow but not until after the damage was done to Birmingham. Meteorologists screwed up (and they admit it). Plain and simple.
2) As others have mentioned, Atlanta and Birmingham are just not well prepared for snow and ice. If they're lucky, an event that causes Winter Weather Advisory criteria (which in these cities I believe is only 1") accumulations will occur every 2-3 years. Therefore, resources aren't readily available to move into position. In the case of this storm, what was available was diverted further south to deal with ice and snow in those areas. In Cincinnati, meanwhile, we get at least one, and usually several, advisory criteria (2") event per year. This criteria is different from one city to another, and is based on a number of factors.
So, when you take the misplaced weather features, and combine them with the fact that these cities do not see accumulating snow all that often and the fact that the available resources had actually been sent further south, you get the humanitarian disaster that we had in Birmingham and Atlanta. To be brutally honest, I am surprised (yet grateful) that only 13 people died, given how bad the forecast was.
See Why the South Fell Apart in the Snow (http://markholtz.info/l5) and How 2 Inches of Snow Created a Traffic Nightmare in Atlanta (http://markholtz.info/l8). What prevents me from going "The people in Atlanta are ID10Ts for being shut down by so little snow LOL LOL ROFL" is that the type of weather that Atlanta experienced was not the type that is to be expected. Maybe in Michigan or upstate New York, but not Georgia. As a planner, you have to plan for what is reasonable and prudent, and then a little bit above that. From the news reports, photographs, and Facebook postings, the snow came down in early-mid afternoon then refrooze into a frictionless sheet of ice. The last time it occurred was three years previously during the night, not during mid-afternoon.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 31, 2014, 06:20:05 AM
See Why the South Fell Apart in the Snow (http://markholtz.info/l5) and How 2 Inches of Snow Created a Traffic Nightmare in Atlanta (http://markholtz.info/l8). What prevents me from going "The people in Atlanta are ID10Ts for being shut down by so little snow LOL LOL ROFL" is that the type of weather that Atlanta experienced was not the type that is to be expected. Maybe in Michigan or upstate New York, but not Georgia. As a planner, you have to plan for what is reasonable and prudent, and then a little bit above that. From the news reports, photographs, and Facebook postings, the snow came down in early-mid afternoon then refrooze into a frictionless sheet of ice. The last time it occurred was three years previously during the night, not during mid-afternoon.
I still maintain that 99% of those cars on the road were non-essential.
if you can't drive in it, don't.
if I saw that sort of traffic chaos brewing for my afternoon return commute, and the roads were covered in a substance I was unfamiliar with but vaguely knew that inexperience meant danger... I'd say 'fuck it, I'm staying at work until this clears' and that would have been that.
It is quite easy, sitting hundreds of miles away from Atlanta (and such) and with hindsight to say that they should have done A and should not have done B. There are some questions that I have including what was the weather like at 6 AM when many people are starting to go work? If the weather is halfway decent in the morning, some bosses will insist that you report in even if the forecast will turn drastically worse later on, figuring that they will get a half-day's work out of you.
Quote from: Alps on January 30, 2014, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: leroys73 on January 30, 2014, 10:11:56 PM
Glad for Global warming or it would be worse.
Actually, global warming caused the whole thing, by disrupting the polar airmass. Warmer Arctic = closer in temperature to temperate areas = easier for polar vortex to droop down over North America = more snow and cold.
Not at all. It is due to a warmer than average Pacific oscillation temperature (basically warmer ocean currents and ocean temps). This has forced a ridge to form over the western sections of the NA continent. This is forcing storm systems along the "Pineapple Express" over the ridge and then dumping down into the eastern 2/3 of the country. This is why the West Coast, particularly California, is experiencing a very dry winter because the Pineapple Express is their wet season. The ridge is also forcing record warmth into Alaska.
Because of this ridge, the arctic air is being dumped upon the eastern NA continent with frequent advances of cold air, and above average snowfall. The Midwest, Ohio Valley, and parts of the Northeast are seeing one of the coldest and snowiest winters since the classic winters of the 1970s and 80s. The Southeast are seeing RECORDS when it comes to winter weather because of how deep this trough is digging with each cold advance.
Right now, Chicago O'Hare is already at about 43 inches of snow, which is already above the Seasonal norm. With another 5-10 incher tomorrow and a 4-8 incher possible Tuesday, our annual snowfall will surpass 50 inches.
Quote from: Alps on January 30, 2014, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: leroys73 on January 30, 2014, 10:11:56 PM
Glad for Global warming or it would be worse.
Actually, global warming caused the whole thing, by disrupting the polar airmass. Warmer Arctic = closer in temperature to temperate areas = easier for polar vortex to droop down over North America = more snow and cold.
I would be inclined to believe Global Warming (actually
"Climate Change" is the proper term) exacerbated the extreme weather.
Weather is extremely complicated, with multiple layers contributing to any particular event, or uneventful weather. Climate has multiple layers of complexity on top of that.
Something I've noticed is that just about any time people try to predict things that can't be predicted very well, they find a way to predict that things will get worse, and then worse after that. If I were to guess, I'd say it may have something to do with the fear of mortality, almost as if people deal with their own impending death by combining it with the death of the whole world, or possibly that they are comforted by the thought that things will get ever-worseningly awful and so death is a better outcome.
That isn't to say that there isn't any science behind the impending new ice age/global warming, I mean the over-broad and almost impossible not to happen "climate change." There is, in fact, much science behind any of them. But we don't really know how to predict where a storm will hit a whole day in advance; I doubt our ability to predict climate in future decades. We don't even have a full catalog of all the things that affect climate.
To me, this isn't about politics or environmentalism; it's about safety, individual and large-scale. If you stay in a closed garage with a running car, you'll die. That, to me, is enough proof that our current energy source is something bad that we need to move past. At one time, it was the best we could do, but we need to figure out how to do better. Tying it to global warming or climate change should be unnecessary, because regardless of the truth of that matter, burning fossil fuels, undeniably, produces poison.
That... very well put. All we know for sure is that overall the world is getting warmer- which has nothing to do with individual events. This is fact. This is easily provable. Will it continue to do so and did man cause it? Its a theory, and a pretty good theory that it will and that we did, but we dont know for sure. In the meantime, yeah- if there are cost effective alternatives to fossil fuels it would be silly not to chase them- the course were on is going to require us to keep drilling deeper and deeper at greater and greater expense. Yeah, there is enough oil to get us by for probably ever, but its going to be really hard and expensive to actually extract it. If gas were still dollar a gallon it wouldnt make economic sense for North Dakota to be booming right now because fracking is expensive. Renewable energy is just that- renewable. It wont ever get more expensive to extract resources that regenerate.
Honestly, the whole global warming debate could be over if scientists were just smart enough to sell alternative energy with eliminating oil dependence on the middle east rather than tying it in with the environmental movement. As it is right now, they're preaching to the choir and angering conservatives. They should be courting the conservatives with the knowledge that the environmentalists would support them regardless. There isn't anything we'd need to do to address global warming that isn't a good (and arguably necessary, thanks to peak oil) idea regardless.
Quote from: tdindy88 on January 30, 2014, 08:44:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:45:35 PM
I've been wondering about this. Does Atlanta not have school buses? Where I'm from, the kids would be bussed home. Their parents would NOT be going to school to pick them up.
I thought it was said that they DID have school buses, but they weren't able to drop the kids off at their houses because they were getting stuck in the same traffic, so at a certain point they gave up and went back to the schools. I remember being stuck on a bus until 7:30 one night because a tornado had struck my area (both my school and individual neighborhood was fine) and we had to navigate the destruction.
The reports I read said that the parents going to school to pick up their kids CAUSED that traffic in the first place.
Quote from: corco on January 31, 2014, 02:46:41 PM
That... very well put. All we know for sure is that overall the world is getting warmer- which has nothing to do with individual events. This is fact. This is easily provable. Will it continue to do so and did man cause it? Its a theory, and a pretty good theory that it will and that we did, but we dont know for sure. In the meantime, yeah- if there are cost effective alternatives to fossil fuels it would be silly not to chase them- the course were on is going to require us to keep drilling deeper and deeper at greater and greater expense. Yeah, there is enough oil to get us by for probably ever, but its going to be really hard and expensive to actually extract it. If gas were still dollar a gallon it wouldnt make economic sense for North Dakota to be booming right now because fracking is expensive. Renewable energy is just that- renewable. It wont ever get more expensive to extract resources that regenerate.
Technically the best word is hypothesis. The scientific theory and the colloquial "I have a theory about X" are two completely different things.
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2014, 02:53:04 PM
Honestly, the whole global warming debate could be over if scientists were just smart enough to sell alternative energy with eliminating oil dependence on the middle east rather than tying it in with the environmental movement. As it is right now, they're preaching to the choir and angering conservatives. They should be courting the conservatives with the knowledge that the environmentalists would support them regardless. There isn't anything we'd need to do to address global warming that isn't a good (and arguably necessary, thanks to peak oil) idea regardless.
Honestly, that could be said for most individual aspects of the environmental movement. I could easily envision a world where conservatives, not liberals are the ones spearheading the campaign because the whole idea behind sustainability is that if you waste less, you have more. Many of the individual ideas are just good common sense, but the whole thing has become so politicized and embraced by environmentalist radicals and there's so much fear by conservatives of government forcing these ideas on people that they've gotten scared away from it. As it is, FOX News conservatives are only interested in wasting less to have more when it comes to government spending, which for some reason liberals are against. It's all so convoluted.
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2014, 02:53:04 PM
Honestly, the whole global warming debate could be over if scientists were just smart enough to sell alternative energy with eliminating oil dependence on the middle east rather than tying it in with the environmental movement.
Because American-drilled oil/gas doesn't contribute to global warming.
Quote from: NE2 on January 31, 2014, 04:57:15 PM
Because American-drilled oil/gas doesn't contribute to global warming.
hey, if you want to negotiate with the worst of the Republicans in Congress, you've gotta engage in a little duckspeak.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 31, 2014, 05:07:10 PM
hey, if you want to negotiate with the worst of the Republicans in Congress, you've gotta engage in a little duckspeak.
That rumble you just heard was the Overton window drifting onto the right shoulder.
Quote from: NE2 on January 31, 2014, 04:57:15 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 31, 2014, 02:53:04 PM
Honestly, the whole global warming debate could be over if scientists were just smart enough to sell alternative energy with eliminating oil dependence on the middle east rather than tying it in with the environmental movement.
Because American-drilled oil/gas doesn't contribute to global warming.
Back in the early 1900's, the world was cooler. Fact.
Back in the early 1900's, we had essentially no environmental regulations. Fact.
Coincidence? I think not. We need to burn more wholesome American coal without regard air pollution. It's the only chance we have left to reverse global warming!
Halting consumption of fossil fuels won't stop global warming, FWIW. It may decrease the rate of warming by some amount, but this has been going on for decades if not centuries.
Quote from: Alps on February 01, 2014, 02:39:23 AM
Halting consumption of fossil fuels won't stop global warming, FWIW.
Yeah, it's a bit late for the simpler solutions.
I'll say this much, give me a polar vortex and 15ºF any day over 75ºF, southwest winds and clouds of mountain cedar pollen.
I have a FWD Honda and can get around fine in ice. The December storm here slowed me down, but was not a problem.
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
I agree, but he said front wheel drive, not four wheel drive:
Quote from: Road Hog on February 01, 2014, 03:25:48 AM
I have a FWD Honda and can get around fine in ice.
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Except if you're driving uphill or accelerating from a stop. Then it really does handle snow better. It just doesn't make a difference once you're at speed and you try to slow down.
The myth that you can drive as if the roads are dry when the roads are snowy in 4WD needs to die, but 4WD does handle snow better. If you drive a 4WD car the same way you would a FWD car, you'll have a better time. You're as likely to end up in the ditch, but you're less likely to spin your wheels a shit ton when accelerating from a stop or have to corrective-steer your way up hills, so it does handle better. But don't drive differently.
Meanwhile, in Sacramento, the NWS has issued this special weather statement for the month of January, 2014 (http://markholtz.info/lc). To quote bits and pieces:
Quote...A PLETHORA OF RECORDS SET IN SACRAMENTO CALIFORNIA THROUGHOUT JANUARY 2014 DURING THIS HISTORIC DROUGHT...
JANUARY 2014 RE-WROTE THE RECORD BOOKS IN SACRAMENTO. HERE ARE THE HIGHLIGHTS, MANY RECORDS NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN THE CAPITAL CITY.
snip
SPECIAL NOTE: SACRAMENTO STATICAL DATA WAS USED DUE TO ITS LENGTHY HISTORY FOR RECORDS DATING BACK TO 1849 FOR PRECIPITATION AND 1877 FOR TEMPERATURES. SEVERAL OTHER LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT INTERIOR NORTHERN CALIFORNIA DID BREAK RECORDS, BUT DUE TO THE DETAILED DATA BASE FOR SACRAMENTO DETAILED INFORMATION WAS VERIFIED.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 01, 2014, 06:36:14 PM
...A PLETHORA OF RECORDS SET IN SACRAMENTO CALIFORNIA THROUGHOUT JANUARY 2014 DURING THIS HISTORIC DROUGHT...
So, the exact opposite of what's happening in the rest of the country? :spin:
Quote from: ZLoth on February 01, 2014, 06:36:14 PM
Meanwhile, in Sacramento, the NWS has issued this special weather statement for the month of January, 2014 (http://markholtz.info/lc). To quote bits and pieces:Quote...A PLETHORA OF RECORDS SET IN SACRAMENTO CALIFORNIA THROUGHOUT JANUARY 2014 DURING THIS HISTORIC DROUGHT...
JANUARY 2014 RE-WROTE THE RECORD BOOKS IN SACRAMENTO. HERE ARE THE HIGHLIGHTS, MANY RECORDS NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN THE CAPITAL CITY.
snip
SPECIAL NOTE: SACRAMENTO STATICAL DATA WAS USED DUE TO ITS LENGTHY HISTORY FOR RECORDS DATING BACK TO 1849 FOR PRECIPITATION AND 1877 FOR TEMPERATURES. SEVERAL OTHER LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT INTERIOR NORTHERN CALIFORNIA DID BREAK RECORDS, BUT DUE TO THE DETAILED DATA BASE FOR SACRAMENTO DETAILED INFORMATION WAS VERIFIED.
I'm getting your Pineapple Express thanks to the ridge... every other day it's another system
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Four Wheel Drive Vehicles are definitely better in the snow.
The drivers, on the other hand...
Quote from: corco on February 01, 2014, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Except if you're driving uphill or accelerating from a stop. Then it really does handle snow better. It just doesn't make a difference once you're at speed and you try to slow down.
The myth that you can drive as if the roads are dry when the roads are snowy in 4WD needs to die, but 4WD does handle snow better. If you drive a 4WD car the same way you would a FWD car, you'll have a better time. You're as likely to end up in the ditch, but you're less likely to spin your wheels a shit ton when accelerating from a stop or have to corrective-steer your way up hills, so it does handle better. But don't drive differently.
And that is one reason why I have a manual with snow tires. And most of the people who talk about four wheel drive refer to skids.
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: corco on February 01, 2014, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Except if you're driving uphill or accelerating from a stop. Then it really does handle snow better. It just doesn't make a difference once you're at speed and you try to slow down.
The myth that you can drive as if the roads are dry when the roads are snowy in 4WD needs to die, but 4WD does handle snow better. If you drive a 4WD car the same way you would a FWD car, you'll have a better time. You're as likely to end up in the ditch, but you're less likely to spin your wheels a shit ton when accelerating from a stop or have to corrective-steer your way up hills, so it does handle better. But don't drive differently.
And that is one reason why I have a manual with snow tires. And most of the people who talk about four wheel drive refer to skids.
Those people may actually be thinking about traction control technologies that can be
added to a four-wheel drivetrain, which intelligently transfer power to the driving wheels and away from the slipping wheels. That could indeed help prevent a skid, or even correct for a low-speed skid in some cases. But in and of itself, four-wheel drive gives its greatest advantage when starting off in slippery conditions.
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" and what we have is temperatures feel to the lowest in two decades for some states (LOL). The 2009 Old Farmers' Almanac said the next 30 years will be a cooler period, due to a climatic cycle the earth experiences every three decades. The period from 1980-2010 was the warming cycle and it's winding down. The 1970s was known for cold winters in the Eastern seaboard, while the 1930s had the infamous "Dust Bowl" in the Great Plains region and super-hot summers.
CA had a fairly warm and dry spell in January, and highs hit the 80 degree mark a few times in the Palm Springs area (naturally a desert climate). The state, esp. Northern CA is in a drought and in need of some extra rainfall. The deserts had monsoon rains dump up to 3 inches of rain in Aug-Sep. to caused some flooding in the area.
Quote from: empirestate on February 02, 2014, 12:41:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: corco on February 01, 2014, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Except if you're driving uphill or accelerating from a stop. Then it really does handle snow better. It just doesn't make a difference once you're at speed and you try to slow down.
The myth that you can drive as if the roads are dry when the roads are snowy in 4WD needs to die, but 4WD does handle snow better. If you drive a 4WD car the same way you would a FWD car, you'll have a better time. You're as likely to end up in the ditch, but you're less likely to spin your wheels a shit ton when accelerating from a stop or have to corrective-steer your way up hills, so it does handle better. But don't drive differently.
And that is one reason why I have a manual with snow tires. And most of the people who talk about four wheel drive refer to skids.
Those people may actually be thinking about traction control technologies that can be added to a four-wheel drivetrain, which intelligently transfer power to the driving wheels and away from the slipping wheels. That could indeed help prevent a skid, or even correct for a low-speed skid in some cases. But in and of itself, four-wheel drive gives its greatest advantage when starting off in slippery conditions.
I hate that technology. My reflexes are well-honed to correct when things start to go awry, so traction control scares the crap out of me if I don't expect it. I remember driving a rental car down an onramp in Colorado Springs once, in one of those situations where the ramp is nasty but the freeway is fine, so I wanted to get up to speed even though the surface on the ramp was bad. I started slipping, expecting that I'd probably slip a little bit (that is quite likely to happen when you try to accelerate 0-75 on packed snow), but that's fine in the name of getting up to speed, gently started corrective-steering, and then traction control came on and the corrective steering didn't do what it would normally do because the wheels were also correcting for me, causing me to overcorrect, making a not-bad (even expected- I've done that dozens of times. Losing traction isn't scary when you expect to lose traction.) situation into a fairly scary one. Fortunately I was going uphill so it was easy to recover. I immediately turned traction control off and enjoyed the rest of the trip, though I did merge onto the freeway a bit slower than I planned.
Moral of the story- if you have no idea what you are doing, traction control is good. Otherwise you may be better served just to shut it off.
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" and what we have is temperatures feel to the lowest in two decades for some states (LOL).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fcold.png&hash=987b7c286db574c162525104cf22e4bf654eac71)
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" and what we have is temperatures feel to the lowest in two decades for some states (LOL). The 2009 Old Farmers' Almanac said the next 30 years will be a cooler period, due to a climatic cycle the earth experiences every three decades. The period from 1980-2010 was the warming cycle and it's winding down. The 1970s was known for cold winters in the Eastern seaboard, while the 1930s had the infamous "Dust Bowl" in the Great Plains region and super-hot summers.
CA had a fairly warm and dry spell in January, and highs hit the 80 degree mark a few times in the Palm Springs area (naturally a desert climate). The state, esp. Northern CA is in a drought and in need of some extra rainfall. The deserts had monsoon rains dump up to 3 inches of rain in Aug-Sep. to caused some flooding in the area.
Did you really just cite the farmers almanac as an authority on climate? Really?
Yep, cold weather here is proof that global warming is false. Never mind the fact that Europe, and Russia in particular, have been having record heat all winter. They're not American so they don't count.
Quote from: realjd on February 02, 2014, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" and what we have is temperatures feel to the lowest in two decades for some states (LOL). The 2009 Old Farmers' Almanac said the next 30 years will be a cooler period, due to a climatic cycle the earth experiences every three decades. The period from 1980-2010 was the warming cycle and it's winding down. The 1970s was known for cold winters in the Eastern seaboard, while the 1930s had the infamous "Dust Bowl" in the Great Plains region and super-hot summers.
CA had a fairly warm and dry spell in January, and highs hit the 80 degree mark a few times in the Palm Springs area (naturally a desert climate). The state, esp. Northern CA is in a drought and in need of some extra rainfall. The deserts had monsoon rains dump up to 3 inches of rain in Aug-Sep. to caused some flooding in the area.
Did you really just cite the farmers almanac as an authority on climate? Really?
No. He citied information from a book, but I don't see anything in his post claiming it was the end-all-be-all of climatological information.
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" ....
This is one reason why "global climate change" is a more precise term.
Quote from: DaBigE on February 03, 2014, 02:12:27 AM
Quote from: realjd on February 02, 2014, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" and what we have is temperatures feel to the lowest in two decades for some states (LOL). The 2009 Old Farmers' Almanac said the next 30 years will be a cooler period, due to a climatic cycle the earth experiences every three decades. The period from 1980-2010 was the warming cycle and it's winding down. The 1970s was known for cold winters in the Eastern seaboard, while the 1930s had the infamous "Dust Bowl" in the Great Plains region and super-hot summers.
CA had a fairly warm and dry spell in January, and highs hit the 80 degree mark a few times in the Palm Springs area (naturally a desert climate). The state, esp. Northern CA is in a drought and in need of some extra rainfall. The deserts had monsoon rains dump up to 3 inches of rain in Aug-Sep. to caused some flooding in the area.
Did you really just cite the farmers almanac as an authority on climate? Really?
No. He citied information from a book, but I don't see anything in his post claiming it was the end-all-be-all of climatological information.
I didn't accuse him of claiming it was the end-all-be-all of climatological information. I accused him of claiming it was a valid source of climate data at all. If someone cites a BS source, I won't hesitate to call them out on it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 03, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
Quote from: Mike D boy on February 02, 2014, 04:36:13 PM
The constant polar winter in most of the country is ironic, because we hear so much about "global warming" ....
This is one reason why "global climate change" is a more precise term.
The only problem I have with that, as a geology type, is that there is no "stable" climate. It's been 4.5 billion years, and climate's sole constant is that it changes. I'd much prefer to see the term "human-influenced" over "human-driven" for climate as we do not and cannot drive the climate. That's solar and tectonic, not human. We, like every other lifeform on this planet, influence climate for better or worse. And even then, our influences are mild when you compare them with blue-green algae. Those little buggers so completely modified the atmosphere, they added all this potentially flammable oxygen to it.
Do we influence climate? Heck yes. It is worth panicking about? Heck no. We better learn to adapt to climate changes (as they are a constant) or else. Just think, this conversation could be moot if Yellowstone went off tomorrow. Now that's real, sudden climate change.
Quote from: Brandon on February 03, 2014, 02:58:16 PM
Do we influence climate? Heck yes. It is worth panicking about? Heck no. We better learn to adapt to climate changes (as they are a constant) or else. Just think, this conversation could be moot if Yellowstone went off tomorrow. Now that's real, sudden climate change.
Yes, costal Floridans better learn how to live under water, or else.
Dipped down to 12ºF last night here in Seattle. Mother Nature's way of celebrating the Seahawk's victory? Regardless, my California-raised ass can't handle this weather. :sombrero: :(
It was thirty degrees farenheit below zero this morning here- still twenty below. When I started my car to go to work this morning the power steering pump was so frozen I couldnt even manually turn the wheel. My Jeep has a brand new battery so started right up, but I am not even going to try starting the other car until it warms up. My house heater is going nonstop and barely holding 55, so I am scared of my gas bill this month. I sit by a window at work, and it is probably in the high fifties in here too. I like cold, but I am freezing my balls off right now. At least there is no wind.
Apparently it's snowing in the Portland area (where I went to high school). It's sunny and not school-canceling conditions up in Seattle. :\
They cancelled class at University of Montana today because of the cold and couple armed robberies, which never happen in Montana. I guess this weather is perfect for armed robbery- nobody is going to chase you. Stealing a car would be cake too since most folks leave their cars running if they are only going to be away from is for a couple minutes when its this cold.
Quote from: corco on February 06, 2014, 01:45:42 PM
They cancelled class at University of Montana today because of the cold and couple armed robberies, which never happen in Montana. I guess this weather is perfect for armed robbery- nobody is going to chase you. Stealing a car would be cake too since most folks leave their cars running if they are only going to be away from is for a couple minutes when its this cold.
these sorts of opportunistic little shitstains need to be thrown in an outdoor jail cell.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 06, 2014, 01:15:08 PM
Dipped down to 12ºF last night here in Seattle. Mother Nature's way of celebrating the Seahawk's victory? Regardless, my California-raised ass can't handle this weather. :sombrero: :(
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F5b%2Fc5%2F92%2F5bc592c47694bede56900de7dfaaea63.jpg&hash=5573a7bc4457de6eb568a8c662f7b60f1bc481b3)
Incidentally, this also provides an explanation for why snowstorms in the northeast follow I-95: road rage.
Dozens of editorial cartoons, all saying the same thing: http://ifglobalwarmingisrealthenwhyisitcold.blogspot.com/
Quote from: kurumi on February 07, 2014, 11:35:27 AM
Dozens of editorial cartoons, all saying the same thing: http://ifglobalwarmingisrealthenwhyisitcold.blogspot.com/
You've hit on the most important point of the matter, there...global warming or climate change, real or fake, our fault or not our fault, what really matters is that
it's a really worn-out, stale joke and people seriously need to get some new material!
Quote from: corco on February 06, 2014, 01:19:16 PMIt was thirty degrees Fahrenheit below zero this morning here- still twenty below. When I started my car to go to work this morning the power steering pump was so frozen I couldnt even manually turn the wheel. My Jeep has a brand new battery so started right up, but I am not even going to try starting the other car until it warms up. My house heater is going nonstop and barely holding 55, so I am scared of my gas bill this month. I sit by a window at work, and it is probably in the high fifties in here too. I like cold, but I am freezing my balls off right now. At least there is no wind.
Down here in Wichita, conditions have not been nearly that extreme, but we still have wind chills below zero and temperatures are not forecast to rise above freezing for a further five days. We have a lot of condensation even on double-glazed windows. The heating system holds 72° F and still manages to cycle off, but I have noticed my feet and fingertips get cold after dark even though I wear double layers inside the house. I grow increasingly convinced that extreme cold is a productivity killer, even within well-insulated environments maintained at a steady temperature.
Regarding cars, a Canadian friend (grew up and now teaches in Winnipeg) assures me that engine block heaters are indispensable.
There is somewhat of a pattern change possible, and I emphasize possible. The ridge out west has broken down a little bit and California finally got some rain and snow. If it continues to breaks down, as many of the models are now pointing towards next week, a more zonal flow will ensue for the country. This means more snow and rain for the California Desert and a more moderate brand of cold for the eastern US (more average temps and precip).
Or nothing changes, the ridge reinforces itself, and we stay the same through next week. Only time will tell.
Durham, N.C. celebrates 2.5" of snow:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fs3hhYjT.jpg&hash=5f5ea03554ef01111fa8a4f708e9f02151de8d34)
Via: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1xqxbp/so_this_is_how_raleigh_nc_handles_25_of_snow/
just what business did these people have thinking they should be on the road?
Where are the lane markings? (Especially the center line!)
I've driven over 60mph in heavy traffic in Toronto in worse than that. Words fail me.
(Quickly ETA: Everyone else was ALSO doing 60. We all made it through fine.)
Quote from: corco on February 02, 2014, 04:47:53 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 02, 2014, 12:41:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: corco on February 01, 2014, 05:58:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
The "four wheel drive handles snow better" myth needs to die. It doesn't matter how many wheels are powering the car if the tires are skidding.
Except if you're driving uphill or accelerating from a stop. Then it really does handle snow better. It just doesn't make a difference once you're at speed and you try to slow down.
The myth that you can drive as if the roads are dry when the roads are snowy in 4WD needs to die, but 4WD does handle snow better. If you drive a 4WD car the same way you would a FWD car, you'll have a better time. You're as likely to end up in the ditch, but you're less likely to spin your wheels a shit ton when accelerating from a stop or have to corrective-steer your way up hills, so it does handle better. But don't drive differently.
And that is one reason why I have a manual with snow tires. And most of the people who talk about four wheel drive refer to skids.
Those people may actually be thinking about traction control technologies that can be added to a four-wheel drivetrain, which intelligently transfer power to the driving wheels and away from the slipping wheels. That could indeed help prevent a skid, or even correct for a low-speed skid in some cases. But in and of itself, four-wheel drive gives its greatest advantage when starting off in slippery conditions.
I hate that technology. My reflexes are well-honed to correct when things start to go awry, so traction control scares the crap out of me if I don't expect it. I remember driving a rental car down an onramp in Colorado Springs once, in one of those situations where the ramp is nasty but the freeway is fine, so I wanted to get up to speed even though the surface on the ramp was bad. I started slipping, expecting that I'd probably slip a little bit (that is quite likely to happen when you try to accelerate 0-75 on packed snow), but that's fine in the name of getting up to speed, gently started corrective-steering, and then traction control came on and the corrective steering didn't do what it would normally do because the wheels were also correcting for me, causing me to overcorrect, making a not-bad (even expected- I've done that dozens of times. Losing traction isn't scary when you expect to lose traction.) situation into a fairly scary one. Fortunately I was going uphill so it was easy to recover. I immediately turned traction control off and enjoyed the rest of the trip, though I did merge onto the freeway a bit slower than I planned.
Moral of the story- if you have no idea what you are doing, traction control is good. Otherwise you may be better served just to shut it off.
I had a loaner while my 4WD was in the shop, and it snowed about 6 inches in 3 hours. The loaner's traction control was completely useless in the snow. You could dump even the most dimwitted New Englander's driving logic into a car and it'd manage better than the traction control system.
Folks who discount 4WD in snow either don't know how to drive or assume that no one else does. Neither matters to me, since I see the truth of the matter every day. 4WD is a godsend.
The best part here is that with all the nasty @#$%s letting all their aggression out defending their life's highest accomplishment -- shoveling out a parking space -- I don't need to shovel anything, and just drive into and out of unshoveled spaces at will.
Quote from: Alps on February 12, 2014, 11:15:32 PM
I've driven over 60mph in heavy traffic in Toronto in worse than that. Words fail me.
(Quickly ETA: Everyone else was ALSO doing 60. We all made it through fine.)
On the GSP northbound during the Presidents' Day Storm, I was in a swarm of dozens of cars in Union County, snow falling 2" per hour, temps under 15, no lanes discernable nor observed (and adjacent cars just barely visible) and everyone managed to get along safely. It's not that hard.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 13, 2014, 12:32:19 AM
Folks who discount 4WD in snow either don't know how to drive or assume that no one else does. Neither matters to me, since I see the truth of the matter every day. 4WD is a godsend.
I don't think the problem is that people discount it, but that they give it
too much credit. We know that 4WD is quite useful in snow, but there always seem to be folks who think it does things it can't do, like prevent you from going into a skid on the freeway at 70mph.
10 things weather forecasters won't tell you (http://markholtz.info/mq)
N.Y. Times: A Severe Winter Breaks Budgets as Well as Pipes (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/us/a-severe-winter-breaks-budgets-as-well-as-pipes.html)
QuoteSYRACUSE – Century-old water mains here have ruptured behind City Hall, popped in residential areas and split under the city's bar and restaurant district. The mayor says she has personally reported three breaks, while exhausted crews work 18-hour shifts in subfreezing temperatures to repair the damage.
QuoteIn Detroit, a break in a 30-inch main flooded a southwest neighborhood on Tuesday, turning streets into streams and stalling cars in water above their hubcaps. As city workers pumped away the water, and police officers and firefighters rescued stranded motorists, icebergs formed above the blacktop, locking some vehicles into place until the next thaw.
From Bloomberg Businessweek:
The Official Forecast of the U.S. Government Never Saw This Winter ComingQuoteSurprised by how tough this winter has been? You're in good company: Last fall the Climate Prediction Center of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration predicted that temperatures would be above normal from November through January across much of the Lower 48 states. This graphic shows just how wrong the official forecast of the U.S. government was:
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/n0)
Weather is windy and rainy in Seattle for the past few days. We've had a dry season so far, so ironically enough people think it's a big deal when it's raining now.
Northeast Massachusetts:
Snowstorms the last few days :pan: but will get up to 50 on Friday.