I'm reading a book about Death in Big Bend and they were talking abou the "Old Old Ore Road". It has more to do with the "Old Ore Road" being a name than an old road but I was thinking are there any "old old roads" you particularly enjoy?
Old alignments of old alignments are cool.
Quote from: NE2 on February 04, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Old alignments of old alignments are cool.
Devil's Elbow, MO ;)
Quote from: US71 on February 04, 2014, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 04, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Old alignments of old alignments are cool.
Devil's Elbow, MO ;)
actually, in that scenario, I think the 1940s expressway is much more interesting than the two-laner. where do you find nearly abandoned four-lane roads? (see also: boat ramp in Springfield, IL.)
Old Old Alabama Rd, Emerson, GA:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=34.119883,-84.763708&spn=0.000002,0.002064&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=34.11988,-84.76355&panoid=gW8HIXi7B6Qcm0ZUGCe9Rw&cbp=12,83.17,,0,4.5 (https://maps.google.com/?ll=34.119883,-84.763708&spn=0.000002,0.002064&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=34.11988,-84.76355&panoid=gW8HIXi7B6Qcm0ZUGCe9Rw&cbp=12,83.17,,0,4.5)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 04, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
actually, in that scenario, I think the 1940s expressway is much more interesting than the two-laner. where do you find nearly abandoned four-lane roads? (see also: boat ramp in Springfield, IL.)
I-44 near Catoosa:
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2795/4382734859_e04362b91d_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4066/4382733029_be6356a6bd_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4007/4383491592_4cdcb678fb_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4007/4383491592_4cdcb678fb_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4041/4382731775_1205de2cfe_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4060/4382731307_9cd543d4ba_b.jpg)
what year was that segment of I-44 abandoned?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 04, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
where do you find nearly abandoned four-lane roads? (see also: boat ramp in Springfield, IL.)
Breezewood, PA.
Quote from: bugo on February 04, 2014, 12:48:40 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 04, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
actually, in that scenario, I think the 1940s expressway is much more interesting than the two-laner. where do you find nearly abandoned four-lane roads? (see also: boat ramp in Springfield, IL.)
I-44 near Catoosa:
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2795/4382734859_e04362b91d_b.jpg)
Why was that section abandoned? And I think that picture should go in the "Worst of road signs" thread. :-D
2002 maybe?
We could have a whole thread on oxbow lengths of abandoned freeway--Pennsylvania Turnpike in the vicinity of Breezewood, Kansas Turnpike near East Topeka Interchange, Will Rogers Turnpike as pictured above, I-44 near Rolla (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Texas+County,+MO&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Texas,+Missouri&ll=37.940644,-91.942198&spn=0.004611,0.009645&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6), etc.
Quote from: bugo on February 04, 2014, 01:16:12 PM
2002 maybe?
then I have no excuse for managing to end up on the Creek Turnpike because I didn't realize I-44 westbound bounced off itself. I drove the new segment in 2006; I should have remembered!
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 04, 2014, 01:16:45 PMKansas Turnpike near East Topeka Interchange
where's this?
(in other news, I have always found it interesting that one of the more interesting roadgeek items - the abandoned PA Turnpike - is right next to one of the great uproars - Breezewood. coincidence or design that 70 ended up splitting off near there?)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 04, 2014, 01:23:33 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on February 04, 2014, 01:16:45 PMKansas Turnpike near East Topeka Interchange
where's this?
Strictly speaking, it is an abandoned interchange and service area on the Turnpike and an abandoned length of free I-70.
Satellite image of current East Topeka Interchange complex (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Topeka,+KS&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Topeka,+Shawnee,+Kansas&ll=39.032519,-95.611868&spn=0.018168,0.038581&t=k&z=15&vpsrc=6)
At the bottom left you can see the grades (pavement obliterated) for the former East Topeka Interchange trumpet, and toward the lower middle right is the original East Topeka service area, which has now been abandoned in favor of a new location (accessible by right-hand ramps, which require flyovers for eastbound traffic) further to the east. The truck parking area just to the north of the trumpet ramps is right on top of old free I-70, which made a sharp turn to the south as it approached the Turnpike from the west. The eastbound exit ramp for the Rice Road partial cloverleaf (with the roundabouts at ramp termini) is more or less on top of the old I-70 curve.
There is also a length of what is now the eastbound Turnpike that runs due west-east from the abandoned service area to just east of the Tecumseh Road grade separation that was originally bidirectional since it was part of the original Turnpike alignment. The westbound lanes now curve slightly to the north on a new alignment (opened in 2001 along with the rest of the present interchange) to leave room for ramp braiding.
Before construction started around 1999 or so, it might still have been possible to see evidence of a loop ramp at the I-70 curve. I-70 was originally supposed to continue eastward of the curve and interface with the Turnpike through a double interchange. Only part of this plan was originally built out, with the result that for about one or two decades, eastbound I-70 traffic followed the curve to the Turnpike while westbound traffic had to exit a connector to US 40 (which follows SW 6th Ave. east out of Topeka) and loop 270° under itself at the curve. This loop ramp was removed, probably in the mid-1980's, as was much of the US 40 connector, whose obliterated alignment is visible in the center left of the Google Maps extract.
Google Maps implies that eastbound US 40 turns south onto Deer Creek Trafficway, then onto free I-70, then onto K-4 (Oakland Expressway), and finally exits K-4 back onto SW 6th. While bobbing and weaving of this kind is not unknown when KDOT wants to eliminate on-system mileage (cf. the recent example in Lawrence), I don't think Google is correct here, since the signing visible in StreetView does not show a turn for US 40 at Deer Creek.
US 377 at Roanoke, Texas.
The first realignment bypassed an oxbox at a steep hill o nthe north end, and moved the highway over one black to beside the tracks on the south end (through town). The second modification moved the highway closer to the tracks through the floodplain. This was done to raise the highway in conjunction with the construction of Grapevine Lake.
On the north end, the old, old route made an oxbox around the hill in order to climb it more gently. I assume this was because cars of the era would've had a hard time climbing the steep hill that the second alignment took.
Note that someone has re-used part of the first alignment for a driveway:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.044694,-97.202493&spn=0.004477,0.006228&t=h&z=18 (https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.044694,-97.202493&spn=0.004477,0.006228&t=h&z=18)
On the south end, the old alignment used Oak St through town. Oddly, Many parts of the road on the northern part of town are gone. They were eliminated way before this area was developed. The current roads use tiny portions of the old alignment. Look Closely and you can spot them.
http://goo.gl/maps/kukCh (http://goo.gl/maps/kukCh)
Another cool one is Old, old SR 2 In Marion Co, TN. (This alignment may have also carried US 41, but maybe not 64 since it was added to this corridor later.) The old road parallels I-24, but an older gravel routing is to the east. A very old bridge still exists, and is being reused as a driveway:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=jasper,+tn&hl=en&ll=35.152212,-85.776373&spn=0.000004,0.003114&sll=33.018344,-97.208276&sspn=0.025333,0.049825&t=h&hnear=Jasper,+Marion,+Tennessee&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.152212,-85.776373&panoid=4xdZ9st_JJBFtqwANB9mVQ&cbp=12,342.08,,0,0 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=jasper,+tn&hl=en&ll=35.152212,-85.776373&spn=0.000004,0.003114&sll=33.018344,-97.208276&sspn=0.025333,0.049825&t=h&hnear=Jasper,+Marion,+Tennessee&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.152212,-85.776373&panoid=4xdZ9st_JJBFtqwANB9mVQ&cbp=12,342.08,,0,0)
thanks for the explanation, JNW! the only section I had noticed was a bit of the westbound I-70 between the rest area (I had not noticed on the satellite view that it was abandoned) and Tecumseh. only upon close, directed inspection did I find the old trumpet, but after a few seconds it becomes plainly obvious how 70 curved through the truck area.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 04, 2014, 07:56:40 AMI'm reading a book about Death in Big Bend and they were talking abou the "Old Old Ore Road". It has more to do with the "Old Ore Road" being a name than an old road but I was thinking are there any "old old roads" you particularly enjoy?
Hoya Street in Rockville, Maryland, used to be called (http://www.montgomeryplanningboard.org/agenda/2011/documents/20110120_Mid_Pike_Final_Staff_Report_002.pdf) Old Old Georgetown Road. Does that make it the old Old Old Georgetown Road?
Quote from: bugo on February 04, 2014, 01:16:12 PM
2002 maybe?
Current Google Street View shows the grade of Pine Street being raised to the level of the bridge via a fill across the old road. So now it's no longer possible to pass under the bridge. Come to think of it, I believe I remember seeing you post those pictures sometime previously somewhere.
More in keeping with this thread, the former KY 978 in Owen County -- now KY 227 -- runs from just north of Owenton to the community of New Liberty. It's known locally as Old New Liberty Road. Kinda like "old old" but different.
Near Waco TX (Bellmead / Lacy Lakeview), north of downtown where Loop 340 intersects I-35, there are the Old Dallas Road, the New Dallas Highway (Bus 77), and I-35 (US 77) itself. [Just north from here are segments of what may have been an even older alignment: Central St/Rd and Katy Rd (discontinuous, but appear to have been the same road) look as "vintage" as the old Dallas Road.]
I think there is a similar 'old old' south of San Antonio: Quintana Rd, the New Laredo Highway and I-35 itself, but I haven't researched this one much. (When I have more time, I'll dig out my older maps....)
Here in Seattle, most of the roads are really well taken care of, and even if they weren't, most are new enough that they are still in pretty good shape.
There is one road near Lakewood, WA (Interlaaken Drive) (https://www.google.com/maps/preview/@47.167673,-122.533392,3a,75y,16.78h,71.66t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbtWdpm11wWBLZb07oiOnZw!2e0) that is extremely old and really thin with a sort of faux-shoulder that is really awkward to drive on. You are constantly riding your right tires on the one-two inch dip between the old road and the "shoulder". I doubt that most of you find this road old, but to me, it's ancient. The only time I've ever skidded around a corner was on this road going to school on bare '02 Honda Civic tires (that I soon replaced). The car weighs practically nothing and I nearly took out a mailbox. Not sure if it was the road or my carelessness, but I've taken extra caution since then. The road has quite a few speedhumps, but they are equally as old and you can take them at the posted speed of 25 w/o issue.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGu107I1.png&hash=4e33ad4f659e30c4506944e6bec5c7c5410d2057)
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2014, 01:00:08 PM
Why was that section abandoned? And I think that picture should go in the "Worst of road signs" thread. :-D
44 got rerouted when the Creek Turnpike was finished. http://goo.gl/maps/ms8eY
We checked that out during the Tulsa Roadmeet a couple years back.
NJ 163
NJ 167
I realized that old alignments of old alignments can come about in two ways: a small bypass is built, then a bigger one, or a large bypass is built and then the old alignment is later improved, leaving behind an old alignment.
Former: too many to list, but US 31 at Kokomo IN is a good example. Latter: Rose Lake Shore Lane (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.542486,-81.506935&spn=0.007681,0.014173&gl=us&t=m&z=17) is old Old Winter Garden Road, which carried SR 50 until about 1960.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 04, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
Quote from: US71 on February 04, 2014, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: NE2 on February 04, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Old alignments of old alignments are cool.
Devil's Elbow, MO ;)
actually, in that scenario, I think the 1940s expressway is much more interesting than the two-laner. where do you find nearly abandoned four-lane roads? (see also: boat ramp in Springfield, IL.)
Devil's Elbow, the original road has a nice truss bridge and a cool overlook. The 4-Lane has a nice arch bridge :)
It was also the last section old 66 bypassed in Missouri.
Quote from: NE2 on February 04, 2014, 08:30:37 PM
I realized that old alignments of old alignments can come about in two ways: a small bypass is built, then a bigger one, or a large bypass is built and then the old alignment is later improved, leaving behind an old alignment.
You could therefore consider State St. in Dover DE to be an "old old road," US 13 as it currently stands was originally built as a bypass, and then DE 1 built as a bypass to the bypass.
Quote from NE2:
QuoteLatter: Rose Lake Shore Lane is old Old Winter Garden Road, which carried SR 50 until about 1960.
Yeah I noticed that one; the old brick alignment of SR 22/51(old number of SR 50) that was recently destroyed could also qualify.
On US 101 in the San Fernando Valley, there were three alignments + freeway through Chalk Hill (between DeSoto and Winetka). The first was single-slab concrete, the second was a three-lane hwy, the third follows the current alignment of Ventura Blvd, and the Ventura Freeway runs just north on a whole new alignment. So... Old Old Old, Then Old Old, Then Old, and finally Current.
Oldest east-west road crossing the Patapsco River west of Baltimore is Old Frederick Road (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ellicott+city+md&ll=39.310427,-76.792159&spn=0.016237,0.031714&hnear=Ellicott+City,+Howard,+Maryland&gl=us&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.310354,-76.792267&panoid=x0HXGPiG99bCQeaSOGdLbw&cbp=12,276.42,,0,9.91).
Next-oldest crossing is Md. 144, Frederick Road (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ellicott+city+md&ll=39.267651,-76.793755&spn=0.016247,0.031714&hnear=Ellicott+City,+Howard,+Maryland&gl=us&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.267651,-76.793755&panoid=m_jVKRQizz5jgtZil83x6Q&cbp=12,308.75,,0,-1.79).
Next-oldest crossing is U.S. 40, Baltimore National Pike (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ellicott+city+md&ll=39.294547,-76.777964&spn=0.032482,0.063429&hnear=Ellicott+City,+Howard,+Maryland&gl=us&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=39.294547,-76.777964&panoid=UedQ4dDgNDpBtL_IsVFGsQ&cbp=12,315.65,,0,13.16) (the bridge was being reconstructed in this image, but the project is now completed).
"Current" crossing is a high bridge that carries I-70 over the Patapsco River gorge and the CSX Old Mainline (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ellicott+city+md&ll=39.304351,-76.796408&spn=0.032743,0.063429&hnear=Ellicott+City,+Howard,+Maryland&gl=us&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=39.304998,-76.79631&panoid=rvkzctdfWe8IhUmqnRxRtA&cbp=12,166.19,,0,18.03).
Quote from: sdmichael on February 04, 2014, 11:30:03 PM
On US 101 in the San Fernando Valley, there were three alignments + freeway through Chalk Hill (between DeSoto and Winetka). The first was single-slab concrete, the second was a three-lane hwy, the third follows the current alignment of Ventura Blvd, and the Ventura Freeway runs just north on a whole new alignment. So... Old Old Old, Then Old Old, Then Old, and finally Current.
This is a fairly common occurrence along the Lincoln Highway in Pennsylvania (and probably other states as well). There are spots where you find US 30 (the ostensible modern through route of the LH), then Lincoln Highway, then Old Lincoln Highway. These are of course not always the particular names, just representative of the roads involved. Old LH is at times a single lane of pavement, the middle version a "main street," and the "current" a four-lane highway. All of these are, of course, superseded as long-distance routes by the Pennsylvania Turnpike (which, the case could be made, is an "Old" route itself desperately in need of a "current" route to supersede it in turn).
Another US 101 example:
Mission Road in Colma/South San Francisco is the original US 101
Bypassed by the modern El Camino Real (Route 82) in the late 1930s
Bypassed by Bayshore Freeway in 1964, itself a bypass of surface street Airport Boulevard (old US 101/Bypass US 101)
Quote from: Brian556 on February 04, 2014, 10:36:01 PM
Yeah I noticed that one; the old brick alignment of SR 22/51(old number of SR 50) that was recently destroyed could also qualify.
Wasn't that bypassed when it was still SR 22? The Ocoee/Winter Garden bypass was never SR 22, but became SR 50 in 1945.
Any former alignment of US 66 is tops in my book. (Bypassed by upgraded 66, bypassed by whichever Interstate)
Out on Long Island, there are a couple of county routes, like South Country Road (Suffolk CR 36) and Frowein Road (Suffolk CR 98), that may have been old alignments of Montauk Highway (Suffolk CR 80), which in turn was the old alignment of NY 27.
Quote from NE2
Quote
QuoteYeah I noticed that one; the old brick alignment of SR 22/51(old number of SR 50) that was recently destroyed could also qualify.
Wasn't that bypassed when it was still SR 22? The Ocoee/Winter Garden bypass was never SR 22, but became SR 50 in 1945.
I'm not sure. As for the current alignment of SR 50, to my knowledge, it was completed in 1950(don't remember the source), well after the great renumbering.
As for the Ocoee-Winter Garden bypass, it sounds like you are referring to a state number it may have had (SR 434 on my 1943 map) prior to becoming SR 50. You'd know way more than I do about that.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 05, 2014, 10:20:05 AM
As for the Ocoee-Winter Garden bypass, it sounds like you are referring to a state number it may have had (SR 434 on my 1943 map) prior to becoming SR 50. You'd know way more than I do about that.
It was built in the late 1920s by Orange County as the Oakland-Orlando Road (County Project No. 67) and designated SR 434 in 1939. Unlike most of the 1939 Orange County additions, it seems to have actually been taken over by the state, as it became part of SR 50 in 1945. From then until about 1960, SR 50 used CR Old 50/CR 438 from Minneola to CR 545 and CR 526 from Minorville to Orlando, but its current alignment between CR 545 and Minorville.
Incidentally, current SR 50 from Clermont to CR 455 was built by Lake County as the "Roller Coaster Road", and was designated as part of SR 257 in 1931, but was apparently not acquired by the state until about 1960.
In Catoosa, there is the original US 66 (Cherokee Street), current SH 66, the old I-44/Will Rogers Turnpike, and the new I-44.
Quote from: bugo on February 05, 2014, 12:19:57 PM
In Catoosa, there is the original US 66 (Cherokee Street), current SH 66, the old I-44/Will Rogers Turnpike, and the new I-44.
I'm a bit surprised OTA or ODOT didn't tear out the pavement OR take down the signs. I guess it's cheaper to let Mother Nature reclaim it, though MoDOT chewed up a lot of old 44 near Arlington.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2014, 03:45:42 PM
...More in keeping with this thread, the former KY 978 in Owen County -- now KY 227 -- runs from just north of Owenton to the community of New Liberty. It's known locally as Old New Liberty Road. Kinda like "old old" but different.
Along these lines, there is a small town in Texas (WNW of Houston, E of Austin) called Old Dime Box. I think I remember driving on an 'old Old Dime Box road' some years back exploring OSR / Camino Real / TX 21. I cannot find it on my maps and search engines are not giving me clear references. Hmmm, I suppose it could be senility....
In Hatfield, Arkansas, there is Old Line Road which I believe to be the original Jefferson Highway, then old US 71 which followed 1st Street, then current US 71/59 which follows 2nd Street, and in the future I-49 (if the damned thing ever gets built.)
Quote from: US71 on February 04, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2014, 01:00:08 PM
Why was that section abandoned? And I think that picture should go in the "Worst of road signs" thread. :-D
44 got rerouted when the Creek Turnpike was finished. http://goo.gl/maps/ms8eY
We checked that out during the Tulsa Roadmeet a couple years back.
Thats gonna be a badass little road when they reuse it for future development as it appears they will
quote from NE2:
QuoteIt was built in the late 1920s by Orange County as the Oakland-Orlando Road (County Project No. 67) and designated SR 434 in 1939. Unlike most of the 1939 Orange County additions, it seems to have actually been taken over by the state, as it became part of SR 50 in 1945. From then until about 1960, SR 50 used CR Old 50/CR 438 from Minneola to CR 545 and CR 526 from Minorville to Orlando, but its current alignment between CR 545 and Minorville.
Incidentally, current SR 50 from Clermont to CR 455 was built by Lake County as the "Roller Coaster Road", and was designated as part of SR 257 in 1931, but was apparently not acquired by the state until about 1960
So, the Winter Garden-Ocoee Bypass was built before the rest of straight-line 50. Interesting. I was about to mention the "Roller Coaster Route" in Lake Co. in a earlier post, but opted not to. Love that name, though.
Quote from: US81 on February 05, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2014, 03:45:42 PM
...More in keeping with this thread, the former KY 978 in Owen County -- now KY 227 -- runs from just north of Owenton to the community of New Liberty. It's known locally as Old New Liberty Road. Kinda like "old old" but different.
Along these lines, there is a small town in Texas (WNW of Houston, E of Austin) called Old Dime Box. I think I remember driving on an 'old Old Dime Box road' some years back exploring OSR / Camino Real / TX 21. I cannot find it on my maps and search engines are not giving me clear references. Hmmm, I suppose it could be senility....
And Dime Box itself is pretty small
Quote from: sdmichael on February 04, 2014, 11:30:03 PM
On US 101 in the San Fernando Valley, there were three alignments + freeway through Chalk Hill (between DeSoto and Winetka). The first was single-slab concrete, the second was a three-lane hwy, the third follows the current alignment of Ventura Blvd, and the Ventura Freeway runs just north on a whole new alignment. So... Old Old Old, Then Old Old, Then Old, and finally Current.
Are the old old old and old old still in existence? By looking at a map, I don't see these routings. Perhaps either Ventura Blvd or Ventura Fwy was built over the old alignments?
In some other cases like US 40 between Baltimore and Frederick, the old alignments are still there in some fashion, and are even drivable.
The old US 101 alignments are no longer there, except a modernized Ventura Blvd. There is, however, a c-monument still existing from the first or second alignments sticking out of the slope on the south side of Ventura Blvd. Despite all the development, it remains. I'll have to see if I have a photo on my site.