Split from https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11718.0 .
Windows 8 is great. The apps are worthless though (desktop perspective)
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PM
Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
I think my dislike for Windows 8 are the radical changes Microsoft made to the UI. A lot of that had to do with their attempt at creating a hybrid OS that merges a traditional desktop OS with a tablet OS, something I think they've done very poorly. Windows 8 will never see the light of day on any of my desktop or laptop computers. This is coming from someone who's been using Windows since Windows 95 (then 98, then XP and finally Windows 7).
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PM
Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC. I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PM
Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC. I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.
Because I don't want to use a crappy
phone UI on my PC. Microsoft touts that they are making the experience the same across all my devices. If I wanted a tablet or phone experience, I'd pick up those devices. I sat down at my PC because I wanted a PC experience.
That being said, when I bought my new PC, I opted for Windows 8 rather than pay an extra $50 to go with Windows 7, because I'm a cheap bastard. I upgraded free to 8.1 then paid just $5 to download Start8. With a little tweaking I have a very Windows 7-like experience. I'm thrilled with the result.
My question is: does Microsoft do any testing or focus groups before they unleash products on the unsuspecting public? If they do, they are
very bad at selecting representative testers.
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PM
Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC. I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.
+1
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2014, 04:41:27 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PM
Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC. I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.
Well said! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: Zeffy on February 28, 2014, 02:00:03 PMWhere do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.
I add my plus-one to other people's comments. However, I do have my own issues with 8.1, which I became aware of when I helped set up a brand-new 8.1 PC for someone else in my household.
- Crapware cleanup is now much harder in Windows 8/8.1 than it was with previous versions of Windows.
- You cannot delete icons directly from the Start screen. (Previously it was always possible to move or delete icons from the menu.) Now, in order to clean up icons, you have to do a lot of guessing as to the directories where the icons "live" so you can get into Explorer and deal with them there. This is a major hassle since some icons are now deposited in user directories (so you have to search \Local\, \LocalLow\, and \Roaming\), other icons are deposited in \Program Files\, etc. You cannot find icon location by right-clicking and choosing "Properties." Meanwhile, Windows applications by default still vomit unwanted icons into the start screen, just as they did back in the days when it was easy to clean up a start menu.
- There are now two places to remove unwanted applications--you can uninstall them in Programs/Features (a legacy from the old desktop Windows), or you can "delete" them as an "app." For some applications it is possible to do both, but now you have to guess what sequence to do them in, since one or the other (it varies from program to program) won't do a complete removal and choosing the wrong one first can make it all but impossible to remove other undesired features. (There is now a lot of advice on the Web along the lines of "Reinstall this crapware program just so you can uninstall it properly.")
- Some games vendors for Windows 8.1 deliberately design their programs so that come-ons continue to clutter your start screen after you delete or uninstall them. (TangentWild is especially notorious for this. There is nothing wrong with this company that a good firebombing wouldn't cure.) Effective recipes for removing these come-ons do exist but are surprisingly hard to pick out of the cesspit of "reinstall to uninstall" misinformation on the Web.
- Gaining access to some of the folders necessary to remove unwanted icons involves a cumbersome procedure to fool the system into letting you open a command window with the necessary administrative privileges. (Apparently you are not "Administrator" even when you are logged into the Administrator account.)
- In the All Apps page of the Start screen, you now get headers instead of folders. If there is a way to change header names, I am not aware of it, so your Start screen can still look quite untidy even after you have satisfied yourself you have just the essentials installed.
- Live Tiles . . . often aren't. Because wallpaper is more pleasing to the eye than streaky purple with squarish icons, we keep the computer dwelling on the Desktop, not the Start screen, and whenever we flip to the Start screen to see the weather app (one of the pre-loaded apps that we do actually use, largely because it is integrated into the OS and so has fewer problems than the Weather Channel system tray widget), we almost invariably get the half sun instead of a time and weather display. If we are supposed to tolerate Live Tiles, then they should really be live, and display information without our having to take any extra steps beyond hitting WinKey.
- Shutdown is very unintuitive--you now have to go to the Start screen, open the Charm Bar, choose "Power Options," and then pick the shutdown option. The shift toward mobile design does not account for this setup since it is much easier to shut down, e.g., an Android phone.
- The default save directory for many applications is now SkyDrive. Fuck the cloud! Even if I weren't absolutely convinced that the NSA spends its time and uncounted billions of our tax dollars trying to perform man-in-the-middle attacks on absolutely anything anywhere that uses an encrypted tunnel, I wouldn't use the cloud as the primary repository for anything, because I don't trust syncing processes not to delete local material when the cloud copies become unavailable (e.g. as a result of a cloud provider acting in bad faith and trumping up a TOS violation against an innocent user).
Bottom line: Windows 8.1 is still usable as a desktop OS, largely because it still has the same under-the-hood features as previous versions of Windows (such as NT batch, PowerShell, backward compatibility for applications, etc.), but many of the differences between it and Windows 7 amount to an ergonomic step backward for desktop users that don't confer any corresponding advantages to mobile users. I think Microsoft's strategy of reinventing itself as a "devices and services company," in which the Windows 8/8.1 family of operating systems is key, is certainly badly timed and may be fundamentally misconceived. Android is already firmly established as the majority OS on mobile devices and Microsoft doesn't seem to have a workable plan for overcoming the price disadvantage of its Surface tablets. Plus, while mobile devices are all well and good, people still want the option of being able to sit down at a PC for serious productive work, and that is now hampered not just by Windows 8.1's UI issues but also by developments such as Microsoft's new rental model for Office. Plus having cloud storage integrated into the OS calls into play many trust issues Microsoft has not even begun to address in a satisfactory way.
Shutdown can be accessed via the settings menu on the charms bar in desktop. The admin thing actually dates to Vista; the admin command prompt can be launched by right clicking the start button.
Windows 8 is another shit operating system in the vein of Windows ME and Vista. Microsoft tends to put out a good OS, thin a shit one, then a good one, then a shit one, rinse and repeat. If this continues, Windows 9 will rock while Windows 10 will suck balls.
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2014, 11:10:06 PMShutdown can be accessed via the settings menu on the charms bar in desktop.
Yup. The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Settings" just to power down the computer.
QuoteThe admin thing actually dates to Vista; the admin command prompt can be launched by right clicking the start button.
This is also true, but that only launches the vanilla admin prompt, which for some reason did not have the privileges I needed in order to expose the \WindowsApps\ directory. The only thing I know of on previous Windows versions that is really comparable is having to go through convoluted steps to launch a command prompt that runs with the same privileges as NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM, which is part of a commonly suggested procedure for terminating processes that have ignored all the standard kill directives (
kill,
taskkill, choosing "End process" in Task Manager): there is a procedure involving the
at command that probably hasn't worked since XP, and another involving
psexec (part of the PSTools distribution) that is probably the only remotely convenient way to do it in Windows 7.
Quote from: bugo on March 01, 2014, 12:33:42 AMWindows 8 is another shit operating system in the vein of Windows ME and Vista. Microsoft tends to put out a good OS, thin a shit one, then a good one, then a shit one, rinse and repeat. If this continues, Windows 9 will rock while Windows 10 will suck balls.
According to that pattern, Windows 8.1 was supposed to be the "good" version, in much the same way 7 was the "good" successor to the turkey that was Vista. But Microsoft can really afford to alternate good versions of its flagship OS with bad only as long as PCs are dominant in the personal-computing space, and that arguably is unlikely to be true for much longer if it is even still true (which I think is questionable). It may be that this time they have screwed the pooch for good--we'll just have to see.
I wonder if the greater degree of admin rights needed has anything to do with app sandboxing (especially since, as far as metro is concerned, the desktop is just another app).
IMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 01, 2014, 10:36:48 AM
Yup. The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Start" just to power down the computer.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
What is wrong with Windows 7? They took something that wasn't broken and ruined it by "fixing" it. They should have introduced "Windows Tablet Edition" and kept marketing Windows 7 for laptops and desktops.
Quote from: vdeane on March 01, 2014, 01:57:14 PMI wonder if the greater degree of admin rights needed has anything to do with app sandboxing (especially since, as far as metro is concerned, the desktop is just another app).
It might. The rationale I have seen is to prevent ham-fisted users from getting into \WindowsApps\ casually, breaking apps, and then complaining to Microsoft when they don't work. The problem is that when an app doesn't behave--won't delete when the user tries to get rid of it, etc.--most of the suggested fixes require access to \WindowsApps\.
QuoteIMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.
I can see the merit in that argument--the UI didn't feel that different when I did the instant upgrade from 8 to 8.1.
QuoteQuote from: J N Winkler on March 01, 2014, 10:36:48 AMYup. The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Start" just to power down the computer.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Nice one!
Quote from: bugo on March 01, 2014, 08:34:12 PMWhat is wrong with Windows 7? They took something that wasn't broken and ruined it by "fixing" it. They should have introduced "Windows Tablet Edition" and kept marketing Windows 7 for laptops and desktops.
They do have a "Windows Tablet Edition"--it's called Windows RT. What they are finding is that they can't unstick enterprise users from Android if all they have to offer is another tablet ghetto. Windows RT can run only apps from the Windows Store.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 01, 2014, 09:26:10 PM
QuoteIMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.
I can see the merit in that argument--the UI didn't feel that different when I did the instant upgrade from 8 to 8.1.
There's really not that much changed. The only things I've really noticed are (of course) the return of the Start button and the ability to snap with smaller screens (I have a 1280x800 screen which wasn't wide enough for Snap in 8).
My main qualm about Windows 8.x is how everything that used to be fairly straightforward before is now a convoluted and frustrating process. The fact that shutting down the computer now requires going through 3+ different dialogs is absurd. Also the fact that data from 'Modern' apps are now saved in three different places, none of which are easily accessible to desktop apps.
BTW, the discussion of the merits of Windows 8 should really be moved to another thread.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 01, 2014, 09:26:10 PM
They do have a "Windows Tablet Edition"--it's called Windows RT. What they are finding is that they can't unstick enterprise users from Android if all they have to offer is another tablet ghetto. Windows RT can run only apps from the Windows Store.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms950406.aspx
Tablets, before iPads made everyone obsess over touch.
We have some tablets at work with Win8 on them, and it's moderately annoying, but usable. I have Windows 8.1 on a recently-purchased laptop and it drives me up the wall. I'm guessing the difference is because Win8 makes sense on the tablet (and I only use one program on the tablet, for work purposes) but on the laptop I use a lot of programs for personal use, and the UI doesn't make as much sense for a laptop.
Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2014, 05:55:05 PM
Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)
Microsoft, to prevent people from installing Linux on their laptops, since the "netbook" fad a few years ago cut into their bottom line.
Quote from: Thing 342 on March 01, 2014, 11:36:41 PM
My main qualm about Windows 8.x is how everything that used to be fairly straightforward before is now a convoluted and frustrating process.
Here, here.
I bought a new laptop for my wife, and we both hate the entire process. You don't feel like you really "own" the PC anymore (even though you've
paid for it), you feel like you're logging onto some sort of shared public website on a municipal computer. Her profile "crashed", and she had to create a new one. Skype doesn't handle multiple callers on Win8, but it does on 7...it's an MS product, after all. Maybe I'm just hung up on a few things, since I don't use it much, but seeing an ad for Microsoft's products during a game of FreeCell absolutely stinks.
Tablets are great for things that require or work well with haptic/visual feedback, and less to do with typing anything longer than a sentence or two. PCs are better for finer controls. Merging the two is going to take a while; the human process in using a Windows 8 computer feels somewhat hampered with this By Committee design.
I've used a Surface tablet; it works well enough to be a less "exciting" version of an iPad, but it gets the job done. I'd like to see it really take off, but it seems to be unpopular. It seems to be a better mix of PC+tablet, rather than the other way around.
QuoteBTW, the discussion of the merits of Windows 8 should really be moved to another thread.
That'll be a short thread...unless "Nine" slams the crap out of 8 like bad memories of Vista, I think most of us will just get used to it after a while, and deal with it.
To provide an alternate view...
I like Win 8.1 a lot. I run it on my personal non-touchscreen laptop (which I upgraded from Windows 7) and on a tablet (HP ElitePad 900). When I want to do normal PC tasks on the tablet, I dock it, use a mouse, use a Bluetooth keyboard, and sometimes plug in a monitor. When I travel, I put the tablet in a productivity sleeve and use it like a laptop.
My work laptop runs Windows 7 Enterprise, and I really have no issue going between the two OS versions. My wife has a touch-enabled laptop running Win 8, and she really likes that as well. My co-workers also generally use Win 8.1 for home use while using Win 7 for their work laptops.
I can't recall any issues with Windows 8. I really think it is subjective.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2014, 05:55:05 PM
Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)
You need to disable Secure Boot. With Secure Boot on, the laptop's bootloader won't load any OS that doesn't have a matching key. Here's a guide: http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/ (http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/)
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 28, 2014, 02:03:48 PM
Split from https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11718.0 .
Windows 8 is great. The apps are worthless though (desktop perspective)
Windows 8 is awful. I spent days finding work arounds so I can even use my home computer. My work computer is on 7 and we aren't switching.
I loaded up the preview releases of Windows 8 on some test boxes in my department. Mind you, we are all tech heads and power users, and the biggest turn off was the TETRIS... errr... Metro interface. We ended up installing Classic Shell (http://markholtz.info/classicshell) on there. A friend of mine has also ordered a new laptop, and went back to Windows 7 rather than stick with 8. There were some major bad decisions when it came to the user interface.
Win8.1 tip: WIN + X brings up a menu screen that includes, but not limited to: add/remove programs, disk management, computer management, command prompt, control panel, and shut down! Almost as easy as finding it in Win7, but something you have to learn from the tech blogs.
Quote from: Thing 342 on March 04, 2014, 08:30:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2014, 05:55:05 PM
Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)
You need to disable Secure Boot. With Secure Boot on, the laptop's bootloader won't load any OS that doesn't have a matching key. Here's a guide: http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/ (http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/)
I did disable Secure Boot, and got into the BIOS to change the boot order...the problem is that when I put my disc in, I just get a black screen with a random fragment of the UI up in the corner, and it never loads a usable UI.
I am planning on dual booting if I can get a usable Linux installed, but the whole UEFI thing makes me wonder if there would be a way to access the BIOS at all if I were to remove Windows from the laptop at all. (To clarify, there is no "press Del for setup" during bootup like we've had for the last 30 years; one has to go into the control panel and select a "reboot and go into BIOS" option.) This is a Toshiba Satellite laptop, by the way; if you enjoy tinkering with your hardware I would suggest avoiding this model.
I gather Windows 8 has lots of behind-the-scenes stuff that really improves over Windows 7, but that the interface and apps are awful, ditto some the controls designed to stop you installing Linux.
Are Microsoft and Google (cf New Maps) in need of some HCI experts? or is that the HCI experts are held captive by bad philosophies of interface design?
In the short time that I used a Windows 8 machine, I installed Classic Shell (Start Menu) and UxStyle (custom themes, in this case Aero). With the Start Menu back, you can effectively forget about the Metro interface, and with the Aero theme, it stops looking like an NES game with smoothness filters applied. That, combined with some other built-in options, made it feel a lot more like 7 to the point where I was asked how I got 7 on that computer. :-D
I think the HCI experts are held captive by bad management, who want to chase some grandiose and overambitious vision of the software that ticks all these boxes that they think their customers need ticked, while failing to realize that the features they want to add don't work well together, resulting in an unholy mess with no cohesive overall user-interface principles. Meanwhile, the customers are irritated by the fact that management's grand vision doesn't match up with their expectations or needs.
Quote from: theline on February 28, 2014, 06:51:08 PM
My question is: does Microsoft do any testing or focus groups before they unleash products on the unsuspecting public? If they do, they are very bad at selecting representative testers.
Microsoft doesn't care. They know they will sell millions of copies of Windows no matter how bad it is. If they really cared, they wouldn't change things willy nilly every time they come out with a new release. They should have stuck with the Windows 95 methods to do certain things instead of changing it in every new OS.
Quote from: english si on March 05, 2014, 06:23:49 AM
I gather Windows 8 has lots of behind-the-scenes stuff that really improves over Windows 7, but that the interface and apps are awful, ditto some the controls designed to stop you installing Linux.
Are Microsoft and Google (cf New Maps) in need of some HCI experts? or is that the HCI experts are held captive by bad philosophies of interface design?
They're held captive by iPad envy.
I notice no operative difference between 7 and 8, except the lack of start menu. I killed off the app screen and just work from desktop.
Quote from: Alps on March 05, 2014, 06:45:00 PM
I notice no operative difference between 7 and 8, except the lack of start menu. I killed off the app screen and just work from desktop.
Same. I do use 8.1's winX menu to shut down the computer and access the control panel, and I have the metro menu set up to show all programs by default and boot to the desktop by default.
Quote from: bugo on March 05, 2014, 03:01:04 PM
Microsoft doesn't care. They know they will sell millions of copies of Windows no matter how bad it is. If they really cared, they wouldn't change things willy nilly every time they come out with a new release. They should have stuck with the Windows 95 methods to do certain things instead of changing it in every new OS.
Not this time. Win8 sales are, as the British would say, in the crapper. It took Win8 longer to reach 10% market penetration than any previous version of Windows, including ME and Vista.
There was just simply no excuse whatsoever for changing the UI which has been essentially the same since Windows 95. Virtually everyone knew how to operate Windows...until Win8 came along. As an IT manager serving about 200 or so users, Win8 will NEVER get anywhere near my offices. The last thing in the word I need is endless unnecessary questions about the basics of using Windows which my people now know perfectly well.
The scuttlebutt in the industry is: Win8 has been such a spectacular failure that Win9 will come in different versions with different UI's, including one for enterprise use with a standard desktop UI similar to Win7...IOW, what they should have done with Win8 in the first place.
The sad thing is that the whole debacle could have been prevented by just including both UIs and letting the user switch to whichever one they preferred. I doubt there would have been much of a backlash if there was simple "here's how to get the old start menu back" procedure to follow.
Lack of configurability seems to be a problem dogging Win8...I have had to edit the Registry multiple times for things that are a simple checkbox click in KDE. (Case in point: I shouldn't have to dig in the Registry just to have Num Lock on by default.)
I love the metro apps on Windows 8 and 8.1. Facebook and Flipboard are not available on Windows 8, but the rest of the main apps I use are (Maps, Twitter, People, Yahoo! Mail, Amazon, eBay, Skype, Onedrive (then called Skydrive), Foursquare, Notepad Classic, Internet Explorer 10/11, Windows Phone, Calculator squared, Unit Converter, Accuweather, TuneIn, Slacker Radio, NASCAR Mobile, Netflix, The CW, Microsoft Solitaire Collection, DailyMotion, UNO and Translator).
On the first day it was available, I upgraded to 8.1 for free, instantly saved the backup of the OS on flash, and then downloaded the FB and Flipboard apps. All of my devices are now Windows – desktop/laptop, tablet and mobile phone.
Personally I don't understand apps and I don't think I ever will. Why not use use the web browser? The only time I use an app is when I stream videos from Amazon on my Smart TV. Even Colbert is streamed to my TV from my Chromebook via an HDMI cable (because Hulu doesn't have a free app).
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2014, 05:37:57 PM
Personally I don't understand apps and I don't think I ever will. Why not use use the web browser?
Applications are applications. The only difference between desktop applications and "Metro" applications (and every other type of application) is that they implement different user interfaces. You use apps for the convenience; e.g., I don't need to go to the WolframAlpha website to find a certain integral if I can just open the WolframAlpha extension to get it faster.
To me, "app" and "application" are different. App implies something like Angry Birds. Application implies something more sophisticated, like Microsoft Word.
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2014, 10:54:31 PM
To me, "app" and "application" are different.
That doesn't make sense. "App" is short for "application". It just happens to have been popularized by mobile application distribution services (e.g. iOS App Store) to the point that most people just take the term "app" to mean "
mobile application". Apple and Microsoft have recently taken to calling their desktop applications "apps" as well (i.e. "Mac app", "(Windows) desktop app").
Quote from: sammi on March 07, 2014, 11:01:46 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2014, 10:54:31 PM
To me, "app" and "application" are different.
It just happens to have been popularized by mobile application distribution services (e.g. iOS App Store) to the point that most people just take the term "app" to mean "mobile application".
And that's why I consider them different. NOBODY used the term "app" until Apple created the App Store for iOS. I've only heard of reporters using app for desktop applications (and I don't hold the tech press in high regards anyways). Mobile apps are very dumbed down compared to desktop applications that I just find it hard to take them seriously.
Yeah, I'm a computing elitist.
Quote from: vdeane on March 08, 2014, 03:05:24 PM
And that's why I consider them different. NOBODY used the term "app" until Apple created the App Store for iOS.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killer%20app
An article in today's Boston Globe's Business section about the end of Windows XP underlines the problem Windows 8 is having gaining acceptability. According to a table in the article, with stats provided by NetMarketShare, this is the current breakdown of the market share of each OS:
Windows 7 (released in 2009): 47.3%
Windows XP (2001): 29.5%
Windows 8 (2012): 10.7%
Mac OS X (all versions): 7.7%
Windows Vista (2006): 3.3%
Linux: 1.5%
The main issue I'm having with Metro apps is that many UI designers seem to have stuck to the incorrect assumption that ease of use comes with removing features or making them really hard to access. Plus, just a couple of years ago, straying too far away from a standardized, common set of UI widgets was frowned upon very much. Now, the same thing seems to be the "cool" thing to do, resulting in UIs that are pretty and "quick," but oh so f'ing counter-intuitive. (Case in point: the mobile version of Google Maps)
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on March 13, 2014, 04:38:43 PM
The main issue I'm having with Metro apps is that many UI designers seem to have stuck to the incorrect assumption that ease of use comes with removing features or making them really hard to access. Plus, just a couple of years ago, straying too far away from a standardized, common set of UI widgets was frowned upon very much. Now, the same thing seems to be the "cool" thing to do, resulting in UIs that are pretty and "quick," but oh so f'ing counter-intuitive. (Case in point: the mobile version of Google Maps)
Agreed. The problem I have with Windows 8.1 is very much the same as I have with the free iPad I was given and barely use–it seems dead-set on me doing things its way, rather than letting me do things my way. In Windows 8.1, you have to edit the Registry just to have Num Lock on by default. On Linux, it's a check box under System Settings.
On my systems it's a setting in the BIOS, independent of the OS.
I tried windows 8.1, it's okay at best, i do not like the changes made to the color scheme for the windows desktop, and i did use it with a start menu program. My phone runs windows phone 8 (no .1 avail yet, should be announced in April) and i am okay with the Metro (microsoft calls it Modern now, due to a lawsuit) UI on it. For those curious as to what it is, Nokia Lumia 810. I love the darn phone, 8mp camera, 1080p video, front camera. But when it comes to windows for the desktop, i may wait to see what microsoft pulls out of the bag next month. Might be windows 9 which would either be a free upgrade (we can wish, it may happen since apple is going that route) to 8.1 since it is only two years old. I don't see that happening, what i do see happening is a low cost upgrade to 8.x users, and a regular priced one for windows 7 users. If windows 9 comes out and it seems to be worth it, I may upgrade to it on at least one system in my house. Everything runs windows 7 x64 here.
That reminds me–I love the brokenness of allowing you to change the color of the window title bar, but not the color of the text, which is always black. No dark colors for you!
Quote from: SidS1045 on March 13, 2014, 03:18:31 PM
An article in today's Boston Globe's Business section about the end of Windows XP underlines the problem Windows 8 is having gaining acceptability. According to a table in the article, with stats provided by NetMarketShare, this is the current breakdown of the market share of each OS:
Windows 7 (released in 2009): 47.3%
Windows XP (2001): 29.5%
Windows 8 (2012): 10.7%
Mac OS X (all versions): 7.7%
Windows Vista (2006): 3.3%
Linux: 1.5%
I don't have any specific stats, but I would imagine a majority of computers aren't bought by individuals, but by companies. When I talked with my IT people about Windows 8, they said it's not really a platform businesses find useful.
Thus, even if every individual were to transfer to the Windows 8 platform, it may not even hit 50%.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 15, 2014, 02:46:08 PM
That reminds me–I love the brokenness of allowing you to change the color of the window title bar, but not the color of the text, which is always black. No dark colors for you!
So change the window title bar of the Microsoft computers to black.
I got a new windows 8.1 laptop. The only problem is the weather part which it's showing incorrect temperatures.
Quote from: stormwatch7721 on April 04, 2014, 02:07:36 PM
I got a new windows 8.1 laptop. The only problem is the weather part which it's showing incorrect temperatures.
Is it for the location you're in?
Yeah I put it in there but it's only the temperatures problem.
Is it consistently a certain number above or below?
When I login to my laptop, it shows the temperature but when I click on I, it shows a different number. For example: 76 on the tile but when
I click on the weather tile, it says 78. Not the actual temperature right now, but giving an example.
I have long suspected an updating problem with the temperature display--not with the weather tile specifically (we don't keep our lone Windows 8.1 PC hovering on the Start screen long enough for the weather tile actually to display anything), but with the temperature that is shown when the weather app is launched. Sometimes it seems "stale" since it is as much as ten degrees off actual temperature outside the front door.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 04, 2014, 08:07:36 PM
I have long suspected an updating problem with the temperature display--not with the weather tile specifically (we don't keep our lone Windows 8.1 PC hovering on the Start screen long enough for the weather tile actually to display anything), but with the temperature that is shown when the weather app is launched. Sometimes it seems "stale" since it is as much as ten degrees off actual temperature outside the front door.
I think it's just from when it last downloaded the temperature data, which probably only happens every time you open the Start screen. That happens to me a lot too; a few weeks ago I had a negative temperature (-14 I think?) show up when it was a positive temperature at that time.
Experiment: actually stay on your Start screen for more than a few seconds and see the temperature change to a more accurate value.
I actually like Windows 8.1. I just ignore the start screen and go on with my life :spin:.
I'm using Windows 8.1 exclusively on my work desktop and laptop. There's not an appreciable difference in operation from Windows 7 once Classic Start is installed and the default programs are switched away from the Metro versions.
I'm awaiting future updates that are supposed to allow the Metro apps to be windowed; that will do a lot to make them useful in business settings.
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 18, 2014, 10:21:11 PM
I'm using Windows 8.1 exclusively on my work desktop and laptop. There's not an appreciable difference in operation from Windows 7 once Classic Start is installed and the default programs are switched away from the Metro versions.
This is very true. I love Windows 8.1 for how fast my computer starts up. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that Windows Update made it so you cannot delay the restart of your computer infinitely anymore. I hate seeing "15 min till restart trolololololol" and then waiting for hit to hit 5 minutes and just saying "fuck it" and saving everything and restarting. Yeah I get it needs to update system files but really.... I have anti-virus programs and I'm not stupid enough to check links that don't look safe...
Quote from: sammi on April 04, 2014, 08:14:41 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 04, 2014, 08:07:36 PM
I have long suspected an updating problem with the temperature display--not with the weather tile specifically (we don't keep our lone Windows 8.1 PC hovering on the Start screen long enough for the weather tile actually to display anything), but with the temperature that is shown when the weather app is launched. Sometimes it seems "stale" since it is as much as ten degrees off actual temperature outside the front door.
I think it's just from when it last downloaded the temperature data, which probably only happens every time you open the Start screen. That happens to me a lot too; a few weeks ago I had a negative temperature (-14 I think?) show up when it was a positive temperature at that time.
Experiment: actually stay on your Start screen for more than a few seconds and see the temperature change to a more accurate value.
My windows phone does similar things too, i am used to it updating from the lock screen
Quote from: Zeffy on May 18, 2014, 10:31:40 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 18, 2014, 10:21:11 PM
I'm using Windows 8.1 exclusively on my work desktop and laptop. There's not an appreciable difference in operation from Windows 7 once Classic Start is installed and the default programs are switched away from the Metro versions.
This is very true. I love Windows 8.1 for how fast my computer starts up. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that Windows Update made it so you cannot delay the restart of your computer infinitely anymore. I hate seeing "15 min till restart trolololololol" and then waiting for hit to hit 5 minutes and just saying "fuck it" and saving everything and restarting. Yeah I get it needs to update system files but really.... I have anti-virus programs and I'm not stupid enough to check links that don't look safe...
I'm disappointed that Windows has not improved their update process by this point. On Linux, the only upgrade that requires a reboot is an OS kernel upgrade, and even then you are free to reboot at your leisure; the system simply keeps running the old kernel until you do so. All other updates take effect immediately (or if the process is running at the time of the update, the next time the process is restarted).
The new Windows 8.1 update (8.1.1?) Is definantly an improvement, IMO. However, it does seem like Microsoft has no idea what it's doing with regards to metro moving forward.
Every version Microsoft makes the update process
worse rather than better. XP was just a restart. Vista and 7 moved the installation point to during the restart so that you had to sit there while the updates installed. I get that the Windows file locking system is the most horrible variant ever invented, but do they really need to make this more inconvenient every version?
Quote from: Zeffy on May 18, 2014, 10:31:40 PM
I love Windows 8.1 for how fast my computer starts up.
For some reason, I've never seen the faster start time. I can forgive the VMs for it, but even the corporate computer I had at my last job didn't start any faster than other versions of windows do.
Quote from: Zeffy on May 18, 2014, 10:31:40 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on May 18, 2014, 10:21:11 PM
I'm using Windows 8.1 exclusively on my work desktop and laptop. There's not an appreciable difference in operation from Windows 7 once Classic Start is installed and the default programs are switched away from the Metro versions.
This is very true. I love Windows 8.1 for how fast my computer starts up. One thing I do NOT like is the fact that Windows Update made it so you cannot delay the restart of your computer infinitely anymore. I hate seeing "15 min till restart trolololololol" and then waiting for hit to hit 5 minutes and just saying "fuck it" and saving everything and restarting. Yeah I get it needs to update system files but really.... I have anti-virus programs and I'm not stupid enough to check links that don't look safe...
Is there still an option in 8.1 under Windows Update for "Download updates but let me choose whether to install them"? I've turned that on on my computers because I got tired of losing programs I was running because Windows Update decided to reboot.
Quote from: algorerhythms on May 19, 2014, 08:42:49 AMIs there still an option in 8.1 under Windows Update for "Download updates but let me choose whether to install them"? I've turned that on on my computers because I got tired of losing programs I was running because Windows Update decided to reboot.
Yes, that option still exists. I always set it on the computers I manage since I never like to install updates unless I have to power-cycle the computer for another reason. I always ignore the "Update automatically" propaganda in the tech press since I have found I am more likely to lose essential functionality through a bad update than I am to suffer an OS exploit that relies on an unpatched vulnerability.
In regard to the changes in the update model between XP and 7, the real annoyance is that 7 withdrew the option of doing a full shutdown
without installing updates. This means that if I have to do a full shutdown to terminate an unkillable process (e.g. an instance of
Nero gone zombie--a widely recognized problem, but no-one seems to have either a solution or a foolproof kill method) and ensure all my USB 3 devices are visible right away in the new Windows session (I have some that disappear unless the computer is truly power-cycled, which does not happen with a warm restart), I lose even more time installing updates.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 19, 2014, 10:35:49 AM
In regard to the changes in the update model between XP and 7, the real annoyance is that 7 withdrew the option of doing a full shutdown without installing updates.
Actually, that option
is available in Windows 7/8. ALT + F4 from the desktop brings up a WinXP style shutdown window.
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2014, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on May 18, 2014, 10:31:40 PM
I love Windows 8.1 for how fast my computer starts up.
For some reason, I've never seen the faster start time. I can forgive the VMs for it, but even the corporate computer I had at my last job didn't start any faster than other versions of windows do.
I had an old ASUS G73JH I got back in 9th grade. It was great but really started to slow down (despite the awesomeness that is its specs). I installed Windows 8 and it really sped things up. Not sure why, but it did help. I still have it, but compared to my current Samsung (ATIV Book 8), it's pretty slow and not worth the wasted energy. But I know people (like you vdeane) who have not seen improvements.
Quote from: jake on June 29, 2014, 02:18:26 AM
I had an old ASUS G73JH I got back in 9th grade. It was great but really started to slow down (despite the awesomeness that is its specs). I installed Windows 8 and it really sped things up. Not sure why, but it did help. I still have it, but compared to my current Samsung (ATIV Book 8), it's pretty slow and not worth the wasted energy. But I know people (like you vdeane) who have not seen improvements.
Reinstalling Windows tends to have that effect. Probably Little/nothing to do with Windows 8. Unfortunately, Windows has a habit of gunking itself up with junk over time. It's better with Vista/7/8 than it was with XP, but not gone.
Quote from: vdeane on June 29, 2014, 07:47:17 PM
Quote from: jake on June 29, 2014, 02:18:26 AM
I had an old ASUS G73JH I got back in 9th grade. It was great but really started to slow down (despite the awesomeness that is its specs). I installed Windows 8 and it really sped things up. Not sure why, but it did help. I still have it, but compared to my current Samsung (ATIV Book 8), it's pretty slow and not worth the wasted energy. But I know people (like you vdeane) who have not seen improvements.
Reinstalling Windows tends to have that effect. Probably Little/nothing to do with Windows 8. Unfortunately, Windows has a habit of gunking itself up with junk over time. It's better with Vista/7/8 than it was with XP, but not gone.
Dare I say "that's why I love the Mac"?
When Microshaft was writing up code for 8/8.1 there should have been 4 versions for both x86 and 64bit:
8-D (Desktop) Home & Business
8-M (Touchscreen (Tablets/Phone) Home and Business
Metro Interface stinks for mouse/touchpad users.