With the Verona Rd project finally hitting full swing this construction season and the rebuild of Stoughton Rd in the final EIS/ rec alts/ last design stage, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for the greater Madison area to have its own thread.
Links to relevant WisDOT project pages:
(WisDOT) Southwest region: http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/sw.htm
City of Madison roadworks: http://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/roadworks/
Verona Rd- US 151/18 project: http://projects.511wi.gov/web/veronaroad-18-151/
Beltline ramp projects: http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/swregion/westbeltline/index.htm
Stoughton Rd- US 51 study: http://www.dot.wi.gov/projects/swregion/51/index.htm
Beltline rebuild study: http://madisonbeltline.dot.wi.gov/
The forever INCOMPLETE Verona Road project (They're not going to put in the direct link interchange from it to the Beltline East - instead leaving it to the SPUI to handle the traffic.)
Seems to me WISDot is afraid to pull out the big guns, not only on the Verona Rd project but on a lot of other projects also. I think a part of that is wanting to compromise with all parties involved--local residents, local businesses, motorists,, taxpayers, politicians. You can't please all of the people all of the time.
They didn't seem to have much of a problem pulling out the big guns with the 41 interchanges at US 45 (Oshkosh) or Wis 29 (Green Bay). WisDOT seems to be on perennial thin ice in the Madison area no matter what they do/try to do. Imagine the hurdles if the Beltline was proposed today...look at all the issues trying to close the belt on the north.
Similar to the staged improvements at the Verona Rd interchange, they're proposing a similar stage to the US 51/Stoughton Rd interchange.
The existing Beltline is a victim of this kind of cobbling together over the decades. That's how it wound up with tightly spaced interchanges, short ramps, insufficient room to expand and non-existent system interchanges.
It's the close interchange spacing that causes the most traffic problems in my observations during peak travel times. I think a pair of Texas-style one-way frontage roads would help a lot between Todd Dr and South Towne Dr.
Of course the city is really hemmed in by geography; Lakes Mendota, Monona and Waubesa create serious choke points for east-west travel. There's only two places to get by the lakes; the Isthmus and the Beltline.
The Verona Rd interchange and the Verona Rd corridor should be built out fully as soon as possible.
Stoughton Rd, I'm fine with the incremental improvements they seem to be leaning toward.
I am not sold on the north beltline at this point. I suppose it would be nice for people needing to get from Middleton to East Towne. It would be nicer to have people live on the same side of the lakes that they work. I don't want to encourage cross-town commuting. And it will really accelerate the sprawl north of the city. There are much more worthy projects around the state.
Pitch the north beltline as a toll road and maybe I'll reassess it.
Growing up in Madison, I remember that on top of the problems you identify with closely spaced interchanges, that there used to be multiple ways to enter and exit in between these interchanges. There was one between Park St. and Fish Hatchery....another between Rimrock and Park...and of course east of John Nolen it ran where Broadway is now.
I can't imagine what traffic would be like now had WIDOT not decided to relocate that highway.
Some of the closely spaced interchanges could easily be done away with. IMO, Seminole Hwy, Todd Dr., Rimrock Rd., and Monona Dr. interchanges could all be eliminated and no one would probably miss them. All these streets are easily accessible by nearby interchanges with streets they intersect nearby anyways, or in the case of Todd Dr. and Fish Hatchery Rd. are connected by frontage roads. That would alleviate some of the problem.
Rimrock and Seminole I agree with you on. But Monona Drive is pretty busy...you are going to be dumping a lot of that traffic on an already congested Stoughton Road. And I think there would have to be some sort of reconfigured exit at Todd Drive. Fish Hatchery to Midvale is too long between exits.
If you drop Rimrock - John Nolen from beltline WB is not sufficient for the volume of traffic it would happen if the Dane County Colosseum (a.k.a. Alliant Energy Center) has an event. Its a very tight trumpet with 20mph ramps having single lanes (with a lane drop prior for outbound traffic).
Todd Drive's east side exits are configured the way they are because they were at a former railroad crossing (where the recently installed ped bridge that (I believe) carries a rec trail crosses). Why they didn't realign the exits further from Fish Hatchery I have no friggin' clue
I also agree on Seminole. I was under the impression it's being pulled when the Verona/Midvale SPUI is being put in.
The ramps at Seminole Hwy will be pulled whenever the 18/151 Stage 3 project is put in motion (free flow interchange). Probably not for 20+ years.
I use the Seminole Hwy exit all the time as I refuse to exit at Verona Rd and sit through all the lights.
In other words, the Seminole highway ramps will not be pulled.
If the Nolen exit is reconfigured into a half interchange (pointing east) that would remove one instance of close interchange spacing. Rimrock makes the other 'half' of that trumpet unnecessary.
Otherwise, that stretch needs some c/d lanes or one way frontage roads. Seems like I map I could do.
I wouldn't mind seeing a reconfig. of the John Nolen and Rimrock interchanges. I would envision John Nolen as the EB access to the Beltline; Rimrock as the WB access.
-Remove the EB Beltline exit to John Nolen, funnel that traffic on Rimrock -> John Nolen.
-Keep the WB Beltline exit to John Nolen; remove the WB entrance to the Beltline from John Nolen.
-Remove the WB Beltline exit to Rimrock. Keep the EB Beltline exit to Rimrock.
-Remove the EB entrance to the Beltline from Rimrock and/or turn it into an extension to Nob Hill. I'm indifferent to creating a link from Nob Hill to the John Nolen EB ramp. I'm not a big fan of that kind of situation (ala Todd Dr).
I lived just off Park St. at the Beltline for a few years. I'm pretty familiar with how dysfunctional the stretch between Verona Rd and John Nolen can be.
90% of the problems with the John Nolen/Rimrock stretch is the WBD exit to Rimrock Rd interfering with the WBD entrance from John Nolen. I don't think many would miss the Rimrock exit if it was gone. Take that away, and the WBD entrance from John Nolen is fine. The other ramps are not a big problem.
The WBD exit/EBD entrance ramps for Todd Dr. are trickier, particularly now that the overpass for the bike trail was installed and the Fish Hatchery bridge rebuilt. An opportunity was missed to build bridges to have the WBD entrance from Fish Hatchery cross over the WBD exit for Todd Dr. Ditto for the EBD entrance from Todd crossing over the EBD exit to Fish Hatchery.
A bigger but more permanent fix would've seen WisDOT raise the Beltline between Todd Dr and Fish Hatchery Rd. The bridges for the bike patch and Fish Hatchery would've been replaced by overpasses carrying the Beltline. It would incorporate over/under exit ramps for exits and entrances between Park St and Todd Dr. The frontage roads would be converted to one-way, and would incorporate turnarounds under the Beltline.
It also would've likely gone over like a lead balloon, given the close proximity to the Arboretum.
On April 17, WisDOT unveiled it's recommended alternative for the I-39/90 - Beltline interchange (Cambridge interchange) as part of the 39/90 6-lane project:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv704%2Fpackerfan386%2Fnewbeltline-interstateinterchange_zps237b91c0.png&hash=dc2d3b168375b46ab54d07959fe6db547387dc1d)
http://projects.511wi.gov/documents/33947/feae520b-2602-4799-9168-efa4719d2c53 (http://projects.511wi.gov/documents/33947/feae520b-2602-4799-9168-efa4719d2c53)
Overhead layout:
http://projects.511wi.gov/documents/33947/1717e340-0b7e-4f0f-b693-8f23480f843f
Note how the Stoughton Rd ramps (blue) are separate from the WB Beltline mainline.
Overall, I really like this design, WisDOT is definitely not cheaping out on this one.
Again - show smaller images, or just the hyperlink ~S
Interesting that they went with a turban design...
I've always called that the 'Beltline Interchange'.
:spin:
Anyways, that is an infinitely better layout than what is there now, addressing the fact that the area is growing in that direction and the US 12 continues 'bubbling under' as a potential major highway routing towards Chicagoland. I'm assuming that the SB to EB and WB to NB ramps can be upgraded to two lanes each for when that time comes.
Me likie!
:nod:
Mike
Based on IDOT and WisDOT future plans, US 12 won't be a major route in any of our lifetimes...
It's definitely an improvement on the existing interchange, particularly in that the traffic to/from Stoughton Rd is separated from the mainline Beltline traffic so early. They have the available land to do it; might as well do it right.
Now we just need to fix the problem with the traffic entering the WBD Beltline from Stoughton Rd.
US-12's congestion east of Madison is almost entirely local. Between Cambridge and I-39/90 traffic is heavy both ways during rush hour. On the weekends, even holiday weekends in the summer, the current two lanes is more than adequate to handle the traffic.
ooohh a giant version of the Circle.
more IDOT copycatting ;)
They could've kept the WB->SB movement as a cloverleaf to save some scratch. It's the only "left turn" that doesn't need a high speed ramp.
The ramps that need two lanes would get them.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 06, 2014, 10:55:18 PM
They could've kept the WB->SB movement as a cloverleaf to save some scratch. It's the only "left turn" that doesn't need a high speed ramp.
The ramps that need two lanes would get them.
I kind of agree on the WB to SB ramp, and there will be room within the other planned ramps to build it as a loop.
Another note, that commercial area in the SE quadrant of that interchange will be *remote* from other streets and accesses. Would an overcrossing of US 12/18 at Meier Rd be a good idea?
Mike
That would make a lot of sense. Which means someone there will object! :-D
Some humorous Twitter feeds regarding Madison's traffic nightmare this summer:
https://twitter.com/MadisonBeltline
https://twitter.com/verona_road/
https://twitter.com/WBBeltline
https://twitter.com/WaunakeeTraffic
Highlights:
WaunakeeTraffic - 7:07 am: Wow, look at this weather! Nothing could bother me today. 7:41 am: JUST GO ALREADY! THE STOP SIGN ISN'T GOING TO TURN GREEN!
WBBeltline - ♪Raindrops keep falling on my head, you know that means brake lights will soon be turning red♪
verona_road - @77kd @WaunakeeTraffic @MadisonBeltline I'm just a simple country road have g a growth spurt like a 14 year old boy. I have feelings too.
MadisonBeltline - You're late for work? Sorry about that. #lolz
WaunakeeTraffic - SCHOOL TRAFFIC: It's Moms & minivans as far as the eye can see. You can walk from 8th St to Main St solely on the roofs of Toyota Siennas!
WBBeltline - @madisontraffic I've long believed snark should be legal tender during rush hour. That and traffic jams. I'd be rich!
MadisonBeltline - 80% chance of rain and 100% chance of bad traffic. #greatday
verona_road - @madisontraffic it's like having my guts ripped out, man. Now I'll have a big roundabout belly button.
WaunakeeTraffic - The @MadisonBeltline is so bad detouring through Waunakee almost looks like a good idea. #JustKidding #DontDoThat
WBBeltline - If you're on the Yahara bridge, keep your eyes peeled. Geese swimming faster than you will make a great story at work!
MadisonBeltline - I'll have more unannounced lane changes coming soon. Count on it suckazzz. #slow
verona_road - @madisontraffic I can speak for myself thank you very much. GO ANOTHER WAY! I'M OUT TO MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE FOR THE NEXT 7 YEARS!!
As of the July 8th (June 3rd) letting (http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/hcci/bid-letting/letting-information-by-date/2014/20140708/index.shtm), WisDOT has released the plans for the SPUI at the beltline Verona Rd/Midvale Blvd interchange. Plan 20140708003.
Quote from: DaBigE on June 13, 2014, 04:19:52 PM
As of the July 8th (June 3rd) letting (http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/hcci/bid-letting/letting-information-by-date/2014/20140708/index.shtm), WisDOT has released the plans for the SPUI at the beltline Verona Rd/Midvale Blvd interchange. Plan 20140708003.
Direct link: ftp://ftp.dot.wi.gov/dtsd/hcci/plansandproposals/2014/07July_08/20140708003plan.pdf (222 MB). FYI: The plan set contains 4 APL signs, 22 custom sign sheets, and sign mounting profile plans (which is uncommon for WisDOT, except for roundabouts).
Interesting that some of the permanent signing plan sheets are .DGNs and others are .DWGs. Normally, they like to keep a project consistent.
Also looks like someone screwed up the overhead signs for Whitney Way (pg 450)...one of those left onlys should be a left/thru. :pan: