AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: hotdogPi on March 20, 2014, 07:36:52 PM

Title: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hotdogPi on March 20, 2014, 07:36:52 PM
They must almost touch, but not touch at any point. (Crossing over with or without an interchange still counts as touching.)

NH 88 and NH 84: 300 feet
VT 23 and VT 30: 260 feet
MA 31 and CT 197: 220 feet
I-89 and VT 117: 180 feet
MA 125 and NH 121A: 100 feet
NH 101 and NH 121: 63 feet (shoulder to shoulder)


If you have some examples, make sure they are 500 feet or less.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Mapmikey on March 20, 2014, 08:29:50 PM
I-81 and VA 372 - 174 ft
I-81 and VA 336 - 74 ft
VA 86 and VA 398 - 284 ft
I-81 and VA 305 - 123 ft
VA 319 and VA 357 - 79 ft
US 50 and VA 338 - 234 ft
US 15-17-29 and VA 355 - 102 ft
I-95 and VA 353 - 57 ft
I-64 and VA 388 - 195 ft
I-64 and VA 39 - 173 ft
VA 209 and VA 267 - 83 ft

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 20, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
alas, I-88 and I-355 do intersect at the ends of their parallel section, because otherwise this would be the quintessential example.

so, then, I-276 and I-95.  they cross over, yes, but they do not touch, in the sense that a vehicle can reasonably proceed from one to the other.  so, what's the vertical separation between the two?  that might be our answer.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 20, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?

you mean where the overpass is not part of the state highway system but the approaching roads both are?
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hotdogPi on March 20, 2014, 08:47:12 PM
Just found a really close one (37 feet if using the dashed line): I-690 and NY 5.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 20, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?

you mean where the overpass is not part of the state highway system but the approaching roads both are?
No, where there's no overpass. Something like http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.347989,-84.245589&spn=0.006532,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17 but with a numbered route.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 20, 2014, 09:01:26 PM
ah okay, we had a different interpretation of the word "cross".

I'll bet there's some VA secondary here or there that stops at a freeway, and then has a counterpart on the other side with a different number.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 20, 2014, 09:17:53 PM
What is the distance between NJ 23 and I-84?  If it is less than 500 feet then it would qualify.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hotdogPi on March 20, 2014, 09:20:10 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 20, 2014, 09:17:53 PM
What is the distance between NJ 23 and I-84?  If it is less than 500 feet then it would qualify.

Just barely missed, 600 feet.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 20, 2014, 09:27:28 PM
Then NJ Secondary CR 521 has to, because the NJ State Line is very close to the I-84 bridge.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hotdogPi on March 20, 2014, 09:31:22 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 20, 2014, 09:27:28 PM
Then NJ Secondary CR 521 has to, because the NJ State Line is very close to the I-84 bridge.

170 feet.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 20, 2014, 09:39:07 PM
I knew it had to be because once you travel EB across the DE River on I-84, you can look down and almost touch the NJ State Line below.  There is (or at least was in 1998) that was just south of I-84 saying either "Entering Sussex County" or "NJ State Line" at that particular crossing.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Mapmikey on March 20, 2014, 09:51:48 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 20, 2014, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?

you mean where the overpass is not part of the state highway system but the approaching roads both are?
No, where there's no overpass. Something like http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.347989,-84.245589&spn=0.006532,0.014173&gl=us&t=k&z=17 but with a numbered route.

Maryland almost certainly has this in its primary system but I don't know if any are actually posted.

The closest I can think of is in Virginia is SR 621 east of Manassas but neither side truly dead ends at the freeway.

If the criteria is just continuing a designation across a freeway with no overpass and doesn't have to involve dead ends, Texas would certainly have some...

Mapmikey
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: vdeane on March 20, 2014, 09:53:55 PM
NY 49 west and the Thruway: 20 feet, shoulder to shoulder.  Eastbound crosses over.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: national highway 1 on March 20, 2014, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?
CA 83 on Euclid Ave terminates at the CA 210 freeway overpass in Upland, but doesn't have an interchange with it.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 21, 2014, 12:02:00 AM
Quote from: national highway 1 on March 20, 2014, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 20, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
Are there any routes that cross freeways without any access, but still officially exist to the dead end on each side?
CA 83 on Euclid Ave terminates at the CA 210 freeway overpass in Upland, but doesn't have an interchange with it.
I think the maintained SR 83 ends at 19th Street (old SR 30).
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Alps on March 21, 2014, 01:14:37 AM
NJ 161 and NJ 3
NH 26 and VT 102
I-280 and US 46
GA 13 and GA 400
MD 835A and US 50/301 (and similar situations elsewhere in the state)
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2014, 01:18:23 AM
U.S. 1 and U.S. 29 come within a block of each other without "touching" in the District of Columbia - U.S. 29 at 7th Street, N.W. and Rhode Island Avenue and U.S. 1 at 6th Street and Rhode Island Avenue, but the distance (according to Google Maps measuring tool) is about 570 feet.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: getemngo on March 21, 2014, 02:44:58 AM
All the stupid things that happen in downtown Detroit (http://michiganhighways.org/maps/DetroitDowntownTrunklines.pdf). Looks like 3 blocks is the minimum.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: DandyDan on March 21, 2014, 07:20:58 AM
In Nebraska, the best I can come up with, at least offhand, is NE 31 and the official unofficial route of NE 66 through Louisville (if that makes any sense), the separation of which is the NE 50 bridge over the Platte River, although strictly by looking at a map, US 30 and I-80 way out west appear to be on right of ways which are next to each other, but they never intersect in Nebraska.

In Minnesota, MN 56 and US 52 are very close together in Hampton, right as MN 56 ends.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 21, 2014, 09:19:03 AM
Virginia Secondary Route 650 in Fairfax County terminates at Route 236 about 157 feet west of the western terminus of Route 244: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.8305135,-77.1961758/38.8306054,-77.1967123/@38.8323522,-77.1939979,17z/data=!4m3!4m2!1m0!1m0

(If you look at the Street View of that intersection, you can find some ugly Virginia primary shields on the south side and some weird street signs that abbreviate "Turnpike" as "Trnpk," which every time I see it makes me wonder why bother abbreviating an 8-letter word at all just to save three letters.)

Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 21, 2014, 10:41:22 AM
OLD SR 50 and FL 50 near the Orange/ Lake County Line between Winter Garden and Clermont, FL.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 10:41:45 AM
Illinois:

IL-171 and IL-43.  They are about three blocks apart in Summit when IL-171 turns off Archer onto First.
IL-70 and IL-2.  IL-70 ends about two blocks west of IL-2 at Bus US-20 in Rockford.
IL-115 and IL-50.  IL-115 ends at US-45/52 three blocks west of parallel IL-50 in Kankakee.
IL-113 and US-45/52.  IL-113 ends at the west end of the IL-17 Kankakee River Bridge while US-45/52 is at the east end of the bridge in Kankakee.
IL-91 and IL-6.  IL-91 ends about a half block west of the IL-6 interchange on US-150 in Peoria.

Honorary mentions as these do cross at one time, but come really close together at a different time:

US-30 and US-52.  The cross in Amboy, but come within four blocks of each other in Joliet.
IL-111 and I-255 (IL-255).  IL-111 crosses IL-255 twice in Wood River and Bethalto, but ends just before I-255 in Centreville, with no interchange, I might add.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 21, 2014, 10:43:44 AM
NY 100 and the Taconic Parkway in Westchester County, NY actually brush each other.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 21, 2014, 11:09:56 AM
About 20 feet, US 89 and SR 67, Farmington, UT:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8SOI6YK.png&hash=ed994e13d0a737b7a491e4733ee1784f48e3208f)
Probably about as close as you can get without a single intersection (and thus actually intersecting) or state line fuckery.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: agentsteel53 on March 21, 2014, 11:11:12 AM
also in the "don't touch now, do touch later" category: I-95 and Florida's Turnpike, which I think is barely closer than the 89/67 example NE2 just posted.  I-295 and the New Jersey Turnpike come pretty damn close as well.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: kurumi on March 21, 2014, 11:23:28 AM
Connecticut: closest signed route pair is probably CT 140/286 in Ellington; about 70 feet apart at the town green. The connector road is locally maintained, but is part of the old alignment of 140.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 21, 2014, 11:26:35 AM
I-78 and US 22 in Newark, NJ almost touch crossing the Amtrak NE Corridor and NJ 27.  True US 22 and I-78 are companions for much of the interstate's length, still, for almost 40 miles from Newark is when I-78 and US 22 really physically touch for the first time.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Brandon on March 21, 2014, 11:43:48 AM
Almost forgot about IL-129 and IL-53 in Braidwood, Illinois.  Nothing but a railroad track between them.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.270162,-88.204384&spn=0.001163,0.002642&t=h&z=19
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 21, 2014, 01:06:25 PM
I suppose this probably shouldn't count, but Roosevelt Way in Point Roberts appears to be less than 10 feet from a couple of streets on the Canadian side.

http://binged.it/1hOv0dp
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: JCinSummerfield on March 21, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
I'm thinking of US-23 & OH-47.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: TheStranger on March 21, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
The one California example I can think of is Route 18 and Route 247, which miss directly connecting with each other by less than 1/4 mile.

West of Carpinteria, the US 101/Route 1 freeway runs one block south of Route 192 (which never intersects it at any point).

Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 21, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
Quote from: JCinSummerfield on March 21, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
I'm thinking of US-23 & OH-47.
Not bad - about 25 feet.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: WNYroadgeek on March 23, 2014, 10:52:59 PM
NY 36 and NY 256, 489 feet: http://goo.gl/maps/b0l03
NY 18 and the Lake Ontario State Parkway, 482 feet: http://goo.gl/maps/8dSmb
NY 79 and NY 89, 328 feet: http://goo.gl/maps/97kzG
NY 89 and NY 318, 446 feet: http://goo.gl/maps/iY4ZS
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: mcdonaat on March 23, 2014, 11:14:57 PM
LA 1249 to LA 3054 - 800 ft.
LA 490 and 490 Spur, for the longest time, never connected to each other. Might be the only mainline route, and a spur, that you must make a 45-minute trip to connect.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: vtk on March 24, 2014, 02:53:14 PM
JC beat me to it:

Quote from: JCinSummerfield on March 21, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
I'm thinking of US-23 & OH-47.
Quote from: NE2 on March 21, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
Not bad - about 25 feet.

It's that close? Wow.

I'm also thinking there might be a similar situation with US 33 and a 3dOH somewhere between Bellefontaine and Marysville.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: formulanone on March 24, 2014, 03:42:10 PM
There's a point in Boca Raton (south of Camino Real) where Dixie Highway and US 1 very nearly meet. Since it's a discontinuous trail that eventually overlaps US 1, it's more of a curiousity.

http://goo.gl/maps/cIJ3b
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hbelkins on March 24, 2014, 10:15:40 PM
Only ones that jump immediately to mind for Kentucky are I-64 and KY 59, and I-64 and some four-digit route near Exit 123 in Bath County.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 10:41:24 AM
I-295 and NJ Turnpike run very close to each other for about 40 miles, almost touching multiple times, though they do of course actually touch at the point of their divergence (and cross each other immediately after). I don't know how to measure the distances, but the closest locations (after the divergence/crossover) are around exit 31 on I-295, just south of exit 34, and south and north of exit 40, all between exits 3 and 5 on the NJ Turnpike and none near exits of the latter. There are no direct interchanges between the two. The closest in this area is exit 36 on 295 which is connected to exit 4 on the Turnpike by NJ 73.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 10:41:24 AM
I-295 and NJ Turnpike run very close to each other for about 40 miles, almost touching multiple times, though they do of course actually touch at the point of their divergence (and cross each other immediately after). I don't know how to measure the distances, but the closest locations (after the divergence/crossover) are around exit 31 on I-295, just south of exit 34, and south and north of exit 40, all between exits 3 and 5 on the NJ Turnpike and none near exits of the latter. There are no direct interchanges between the two. The closest in this area is exit 36 on 295 which is connected to exit 4 on the Turnpike by NJ 73.

One could also argue they cross each other where I-295 passes over the extension to the Pennsylvania Turnpike, though certainly one could argue that shouldn't count.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 10:41:24 AM
I-295 and NJ Turnpike run very close to each other for about 40 miles, almost touching multiple times, though they do of course actually touch at the point of their divergence (and cross each other immediately after). I don't know how to measure the distances, but the closest locations (after the divergence/crossover) are around exit 31 on I-295, just south of exit 34, and south and north of exit 40, all between exits 3 and 5 on the NJ Turnpike and none near exits of the latter. There are no direct interchanges between the two. The closest in this area is exit 36 on 295 which is connected to exit 4 on the Turnpike by NJ 73.

One could also argue they cross each other where I-295 passes over the extension to the Pennsylvania Turnpike, though certainly one could argue that shouldn't count.

I don't see how that would count as a crossing. If we were discussing I-295 and I-95, that would be a crossing, but the PA extension is either a separate roadway from the NJ Turnpike or, at best, a very long interchange (exits 6-6A). Either way, unless they build an interchange with I-295 (will never happen), it doesn't count.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: roadman65 on March 25, 2014, 11:08:09 AM
Either way its several miles between the point of touching and diverge/ crossover.  Just like between US 22 and I-78 further north.

1995's point is proven in this last post.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 11:27:11 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 10:58:13 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 10:41:24 AM
I-295 and NJ Turnpike run very close to each other for about 40 miles, almost touching multiple times, though they do of course actually touch at the point of their divergence (and cross each other immediately after). I don't know how to measure the distances, but the closest locations (after the divergence/crossover) are around exit 31 on I-295, just south of exit 34, and south and north of exit 40, all between exits 3 and 5 on the NJ Turnpike and none near exits of the latter. There are no direct interchanges between the two. The closest in this area is exit 36 on 295 which is connected to exit 4 on the Turnpike by NJ 73.

One could also argue they cross each other where I-295 passes over the extension to the Pennsylvania Turnpike, though certainly one could argue that shouldn't count.

I don't see how that would count as a crossing. If we were discussing I-295 and I-95, that would be a crossing, but the PA extension is either a separate roadway from the NJ Turnpike or, at best, a very long interchange (exits 6-6A). Either way, unless they build an interchange with I-295 (will never happen), it doesn't count.

That's why I said "one could argue." It depends on whether you view the Jersey Turnpike extensions (I'll include the Eastern and Western Spurs within that umbrella simply for convenience) as being part of the Turnpike itself, or whether you view only the primary thru route as the Turnpike (which raises the problem of how you view the two spurs for this purpose) and the extensions as being something altogether different.

I don't think there's a compelling reason why either argument "must" be considered right or wrong. I know some of the hypertechnical people might disagree.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 12:02:25 PM
One could argue that Cuccinelli is a good person. One'd be wrong.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 12:13:25 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 12:02:25 PM
One could argue that Cuccinelli is a good person. One'd be wrong.

I don't see what that has to do with the argument here nor what prompted you to bring him into this. Have you met him personally?
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 12:18:58 PM
Quote
They must almost touch, but not touch at any point. (Crossing over with or without an interchange still counts as touching.)

Quote
I-295 and NJ Turnpike run very close to each other for about 40 miles, almost touching multiple times, though they do of course actually touch at the point of their divergence (and cross each other immediately after). I don't know how to measure the distances, but the closest locations (after the divergence/crossover) are around exit 31 on I-295, just south of exit 34, and south and north of exit 40, all between exits 3 and 5 on the NJ Turnpike and none near exits of the latter. There are no direct interchanges between the two. The closest in this area is exit 36 on 295 which is connected to exit 4 on the Turnpike by NJ 73.

Since they do touch just north of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, I wouldn't count them at all.

The absolutely closest location the asphalt of the two roadways meet, not including where they touch, is here: http://goo.gl/maps/ZtdSN , which is about 2 miles north of Rt. 73.  The distance is about 160 feet or the width of a football field.  The sidelines would be on the shoulders of the roadways.  If you go another mile north, the southbound maintenience yard/police station ramp comes within 75 feet or so of 295. 
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 12:18:58 PM
....

Since they do touch just north of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, I wouldn't count them at all.

....

So the Turnpike actually begins right at that interchange, then? I always wondered about it but was never motivated enough to look it up. I was never sure whether it was considered to begin at the site of the old "Exit 1" toll plaza (since removed) or whether it went further down. There used to be one of the ubiquitous "You have left the turnpike, obey local speed laws" signs located just south of that old toll plaza, which was one reason why I was never sure (of course we all know signs themselves are not determinative*).

*I remember when I was a kid a friend of mine insisted adamantly that the state line is located where the welcome sign is. You should have seen the look on his face when I asked, "Then how does it work when the states don't position the welcome signs directly across from each other? Does the state line suddenly change directions to run up the middle of the road?"
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 12:40:10 PM
Turnpike maintenance begins at the US 130-NJ 49 overpass (where derba maintenance ends). Thus the Turnpike maintains a bit of southbound I-295 but not northbound (the lane striping confirms).
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
If the south terminus of the Turnpike were to coincide with the toll plaza (which appears not to be true based on the above, but then again maintenance isn't everything. Doesn't NJTA maintain some of the free I-95 north of the northern terminus?), we have a curious situation of a freeway section with no designation, since US 40 leaves the Turnpike south of the tolls. Are there other places like this? What do people call them? I know in the case of the Turnpike, most people think it goes all the way to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, a notion perpetuated by the ambiguous signs on both the Turnpike and I-295 in Delaware.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
If the south terminus of the Turnpike were to coincide with the toll plaza (which appears not to be true based on the above, but then again maintenance isn't everything. Doesn't NJTA maintain some of the free I-95 north of the northern terminus?), we have a curious situation of a freeway section with no designation, since US 40 leaves the Turnpike south of the tolls. Are there other places like this? What do people call them? I know in the case of the Turnpike, most people think it goes all the way to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, a notion perpetuated by the ambiguous signs on both the Turnpike and I-295 in Delaware.

I think there is a minuscule portion of the New York Thruway with no designation, that being the smidgen located between the point where I-87 departs at Exit 24 and I-90 takes over a short distance to the west. I believe technically the brief bit of road between the ramps has no designation other than whatever internal designation New York's authorities may use.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
It's still the Thruway, though, isn't it? I meant something with neither name nor number. Much of the NJ Turnpike, not to mention all of the Parkway (yes, I know about the US 9 multiplexes, virtually all) and AC Expressway have no public route numbers, but those are not really that interesting.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
It's still the Thruway, though, isn't it? I meant something with neither name nor number. Much of the NJ Turnpike, not to mention all of the Parkway (yes, I know about the US 9 multiplexes, virtually all) and AC Expressway have no public route numbers, but those are not really that interesting.

Ah, I misunderstood. Yes, it's still the Thruway. As to neither name nor number, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 02:06:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 25, 2014, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 12:18:58 PM
....Since they do touch just north of the Delaware Memorial Bridge, I wouldn't count them at all.....

So the Turnpike actually begins right at that interchange, then? I always wondered about it but was never motivated enough to look it up. I was never sure whether it was considered to begin at the site of the old "Exit 1" toll plaza (since removed) or whether it went further down. There used to be one of the ubiquitous "You have left the turnpike, obey local speed laws" signs located just south of that old toll plaza, which was one reason why I was never sure (of course we all know signs themselves are not determinative*).

*I remember when I was a kid a friend of mine insisted adamantly that the state line is located where the welcome sign is. You should have seen the look on his face when I asked, "Then how does it work when the states don't position the welcome signs directly across from each other? Does the state line suddenly change directions to run up the middle of the road?"

Actually, it's true of all the toll plazas - they are simply at a random point along the turnpike right-of-way.  In all cases, the turnpike's jurisdiction extends beyond the plazas to include the ramps, access roads and the like.

Here are your jurisdiction limits approaching the Delaware Memorial Bridge: http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/enlarged_view_26.pdf

Another oddity that could be a bit confusing (although it doesn't appear most people care) is the speed limit down that way.  Per the Straight Line Diagrams, the speed limit is 55 mph between Turnpike MP 0.0 & 1.7.  Per the NJ Turnpike offical regulations, it's MP 1.2.   Either way, signs don't exist for the 55 mph area whatsoever.

Coming into NJ Northbound, the DRPA posts a 50 mph speed limit sign just before their jurisdiction ends (I hate when they do that), and there are no speed limit signs on the Turnpike until about MP 1.5 (and that one may have been removed when they put the new VMS/VSLS structure at about MP 3.0). Southbound, the final speed limit sign is just south of the last service area.  Both those signs are normally set at 65 mph.

So what does it mean?  Not much.  In the rare instances the State Police are actually patrolling the area, they would probably consider it a 65 mph zone.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 01:06:35 PM
If the south terminus of the Turnpike were to coincide with the toll plaza (which appears not to be true based on the above, but then again maintenance isn't everything. Doesn't NJTA maintain some of the free I-95 north of the northern terminus?), we have a curious situation of a freeway section with no designation, since US 40 leaves the Turnpike south of the tolls. Are there other places like this? What do people call them? I know in the case of the Turnpike, most people think it goes all the way to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, a notion perpetuated by the ambiguous signs on both the Turnpike and I-295 in Delaware.

Eh? I just said that the Turnpike (NJ 700) goes all the way to the beginning of DMB maintenance.

Maintenance almost never ends at a toll booth; I can think of only one example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_913). Approaches are logical parts of the roadway.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 02:13:41 PM
Eh? I just said that the Turnpike (NJ 700) goes all the way to the beginning of DMB maintenance.

Maintenance almost never ends at a toll booth; I can think of only one example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_913). Approaches are logical parts of the roadway.

My point is that just because *maintenance* continues beyond the toll booth, doesn't mean it is part of what is officially called the New Jersey Turnpike. So if it's not, we have a section of roadway that does not have any designation, name or number (unlike the parallel situation between the northern end of the Turnpike and the section of free 95 maintained by the NJTA, which is of course designated as I-95).
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 04:33:23 PM
I can't think of any places where the name ends at the toll booth.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Kacie Jane on March 25, 2014, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 02:13:41 PM
Eh? I just said that the Turnpike (NJ 700) goes all the way to the beginning of DMB maintenance.

Maintenance almost never ends at a toll booth; I can think of only one example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_913). Approaches are logical parts of the roadway.

My point is that just because *maintenance* continues beyond the toll booth, doesn't mean it is part of what is officially called the New Jersey Turnpike. So if it's not, we have a section of roadway that does not have any designation, name or number (unlike the parallel situation between the northern end of the Turnpike and the section of free 95 maintained by the NJTA, which is of course designated as I-95).

Why on earth would the name end at the tollbooth? All the signs beyond the toll booth say Turnpike (without a "To").

Not to mention, it does have a (secret) number, 700, that unambiguously continues to 295. Or if you don't like secret numbers, then you'd have another case in the same state... The first toll booth southbound on the GSP isn't until after Exit 166.  I can't recall where it is northbound, but it certainly isn't right at Exit 0.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 05:47:59 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on March 25, 2014, 05:00:48 PM
Why on earth would the name end at the tollbooth? All the signs beyond the toll booth say Turnpike (without a "To").

Not to mention, it does have a (secret) number, 700, that unambiguously continues to 295. Or if you don't like secret numbers, then you'd have another case in the same state... The first toll booth southbound on the GSP isn't until after Exit 166.  I can't recall where it is northbound, but it certainly isn't right at Exit 0.

You are right. I was sure they did not, but looking at Google street view, they do, though the exit for US 40 being unnumbered does lend itself to the feeling that you are in no man's land. As for the Parkway, it uses a different tolling system, so you don't associate being on the Parkway with being between exactly two tollbooths at either end like you do with the Turnpike.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 06:57:05 PM
Does the Eastern Spur end at NJ 495? Of course not.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: iowahighways on March 25, 2014, 09:37:02 PM
There is a point just south of the Iowa-Missouri border where I-29 and US 275 run parallel about 150 feet apart. They even share a weigh station, but there is no interchange between the two highways at that point.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: hotdogPi on March 25, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
I mentioned I-690/NY 5 before, but how it's counted is up to interpretation.

How do you think the distance between them should be measured?
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 25, 2014, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 02:13:41 PM
Eh? I just said that the Turnpike (NJ 700) goes all the way to the beginning of DMB maintenance.

Maintenance almost never ends at a toll booth; I can think of only one example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_913). Approaches are logical parts of the roadway.

My point is that just because *maintenance* continues beyond the toll booth, doesn't mean it is part of what is officially called the New Jersey Turnpike. So if it's not, we have a section of roadway that does not have any designation, name or number (unlike the parallel situation between the northern end of the Turnpike and the section of free 95 maintained by the NJTA, which is of course designated as I-95).

Referring to the southern end of the turnpike, it is State Route 700 all the way down to MP 0.0 where it officially becomes 295, and is turnpike owned and maintained between that point and the toll plazas, including the portion also designed at US 40. Along the ramps, the NJ Turnpike maintains them and they are usually signed in some fashion. So unless there's another stretch of roadway one can find that isn't numbered or designated in some way, the point is moot.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: kendancy66 on March 25, 2014, 11:35:39 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 21, 2014, 09:19:03 AM
Virginia Secondary Route 650 in Fairfax County terminates at Route 236 about 157 feet west of the western terminus of Route 244: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.8305135,-77.1961758/38.8306054,-77.1967123/@38.8323522,-77.1939979,17z/data=!4m3!4m2!1m0!1m0

(If you look at the Street View of that intersection, you can find some ugly Virginia primary shields on the south side and some weird street signs that abbreviate "Turnpike" as "Trnpk," which every time I see it makes me wonder why bother abbreviating an 8-letter word at all just to save three letters.)

Great example, but I thought that I would pose this question to others:

Since VA 244 west of VA 617 is only one way, does East VA 244 start at VA 617?  Or is there a different routing for VA-244 from VA-236 western terminus east to Columbia Pike?
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: mrsman on March 30, 2014, 07:53:32 AM
Quote from: kendancy66 on March 25, 2014, 11:35:39 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 21, 2014, 09:19:03 AM
Virginia Secondary Route 650 in Fairfax County terminates at Route 236 about 157 feet west of the western terminus of Route 244: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.8305135,-77.1961758/38.8306054,-77.1967123/@38.8323522,-77.1939979,17z/data=!4m3!4m2!1m0!1m0

(If you look at the Street View of that intersection, you can find some ugly Virginia primary shields on the south side and some weird street signs that abbreviate "Turnpike" as "Trnpk," which every time I see it makes me wonder why bother abbreviating an 8-letter word at all just to save three letters.)

Great example, but I thought that I would pose this question to others:

Since VA 244 west of VA 617 is only one way, does East VA 244 start at VA 617?  Or is there a different routing for VA-244 from VA-236 western terminus east to Columbia Pike?

I think, technically speaking VA 244 ends at VA 236, yet the last block is only westbound.  So the beginning of eastbound VA 236 is at VA 244, yet you are not allowed to drive on it.  But you could walk (and maybe bicycle) along the sidewalk in the eastbound direction.

By looking at Streetview, I'm disappointed that there doesn't appear to be good signage along eastbound VA 236 guiding people to use VA 617 to get to eastbound VA 244.  I believe that street signage should guide people in a way that is representative of what they are likely to see on a road map (the old fashioned foldable kind, not GSV or GPS).  Unless they have a street by street map of the area, a map would likely show VA 244, VA 617, and VA 236 converging on one point, and a driver should be guided toward VA 244 through signage alone.

It is also tricky if someone were to follow directions by taking VA 244 westbound to VA 236 westbound.  On their return trip, they'd expect to be able to make the reverse trip by making a left turn.  I'm sure many unfamiliar people miss their way back.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2014, 10:17:30 AM
Heading to eastbound 244 they recommend using John Marr Drive (next traffic light east of 617). I believe that's due to that block of Backlick Road (617) in front of the old Three Chefs/Fuddruckers being an extremely short block that congests easily when traffic is heavy. They rightly don't want traffic spilling out and blocking the box on 236. You get a good amount of thru traffic going from Backlick Road to Annandale Road (Route 650), which becomes Gallows Road and leads to Tysons. It's a popular alternate route to the Beltway during rush hours among people who can't or won't use the HO/T lanes.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: dgolub on March 30, 2014, 10:31:42 AM
If county routes count, they how about Anderson Hill Road (Westchester CR 18) and King Street (NY 120A).  CR 18 ends at the New York-Connecticut border, and NY 120A is just over the border in Connecticut (even though it's a New York route).
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: 6a on March 30, 2014, 05:46:25 PM

Quote from: vtk on March 24, 2014, 02:53:14 PM
JC beat me to it:

Quote from: JCinSummerfield on March 21, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
I'm thinking of US-23 & OH-47.
Quote from: NE2 on March 21, 2014, 03:06:01 PM
Not bad - about 25 feet.

It's that close? Wow.

I'm also thinking there might be a similar situation with US 33 and a 3dOH somewhere between Bellefontaine and Marysville.

Yeah, SR 292 does that just before Bellefontaine.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: woodpusher on March 30, 2014, 10:56:45 PM
It seems there was one in New Orleans (I don't recall whether it was Orleans or Jefferson Parish)...this was before Katrina....
anyway when traffic backed up sometimes people would drive over this narrow strip of land to get to the nearby road.

Dang, I want to say Earhart Blvd (which would be LA-3139).  It becomes Earhart Expressway further into Jefferson Parish.  Hmm....I'm looking at the map but nothing jumps out at me though.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: froggie on April 09, 2014, 11:30:32 AM
Jumping in slightly late here...

QuoteNH 26 and VT 102

Given that VT 26 (all 50-some feet of it) is an extension of NH 26, can you really count this one?  Though SPUI used a "harsher" term, I agree with his sentiment on "state line tomfoolery"...

QuoteMD 835A and US 50/301 (and similar situations elsewhere in the state)

Strictly speaking mainlines, yes.  Though it should be noted that there are ramps on eastbound 50/301 that connect to MD 835A.  Same situation with US 52/MN 56...the southbound US 52 ramps at MN 50 connect directly to MN 56.

Meanwhile, two examples that haven't been mentioned yet:

- US 11/NY 190 in Ellenburg, NY:  about 200ft centerline to centerline.  Drove this one along US 11 yesterday.
- PA 475/PA 655 in Hustontown, PA:  about 370ft.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: mwp3 on April 09, 2014, 11:14:46 PM
I-290 and I-294 come pretty close to each other between North Avenue in Elmhurst, IL and Butterfield Road near the eastern terminus of I-88.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: Gnutella on June 02, 2014, 12:09:27 AM
GA 98 and GA 22 in Comer (Madison County).

By the way, the two termini for GA 98 are in towns named Comer and Homer. :-D
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: TEG24601 on June 02, 2014, 11:13:07 AM
OR-8 and OR-10 come within 1 block (about 50'-75') from touching in Beaverton.  They even share an Interchange on OR-217, but alas, TV Highway (OR-8) and Farmington Highway (OR-10) do not touch.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: lepidopteran on June 05, 2014, 12:26:27 PM
Honorable mention goes to the Long Island Expressway and the Northern State Parkway.  True, they cross west of Jericho, complete with slip ramps, but there are two points where the highways run practically side-by-side.  Kind of makes you wonder: two freeways, one of which has HOV lanes, and the area has one of the most extensive commuter rail lines in the country, yet the LIE still manages to get backed up.
Title: Re: Routes that almost touch
Post by: vtk on June 05, 2014, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: lepidopteran on June 05, 2014, 12:26:27 PM
Honorable mention goes to the Long Island Expressway and the Northern State Parkway.  True, they cross west of Jericho, complete with slip ramps, but there are two points where the highways run practically side-by-side.  Kind of makes you wonder: two freeways, one of which has HOV lanes, and the area has one of the most extensive commuter rail lines in the country, yet the LIE still manages to get backed up.

And yet a friend of mine who lives there refuses to characterize the area as urbanized.