This may be the dumbest question ever - but where does I-95 go north of Philadelphia?
I have driven the NJ turnpike to the Delaware Memorial Bridge, but have never seen an interchange for I-95 on the north side of Philly. Obviously I-295 and I-95 split in Wilmington DE, but I cannot figure out where they reconnect on the NJ side, though maps show that I-95 goes to downtown Philadelphia.
Use Google Maps or nearly any paper map from PA or NJ and you'll see 95's routing. 95 goes thru Philly, up the PA side of the river. It crosses into NJ northwest of Trenton. 95 and 295 meet, for all intent and purpose, at US 1 northeast of Trenton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_95_in_New_Jersey#The_I-95_gap
Going north, I-95 turns into I-295 south at the interchange with US 1 just north of Trenton. Going south, I-95 follows the New Jersey Turnpike to the turnpike extension that becomes the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-276). It is (for now) unsigned along the turnpike extension and turns into I-276 at the Pennsylvania border. This will all get cleaned up once they complete the I-95/I-276 interchange north of Philadelphia.
Quote from: DevalDragon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:01 AM
but I cannot figure out where they reconnect on the NJ side
They don't.
Only all highway connection from Philly to NYC is 95 north to 295 south to 195 east to 95 north(NJT) at exit 7a.
Quote from: Perfxion on March 25, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
Only all highway connection from Philly to NYC is 95 north to 295 south to 195 east to 95 north(NJT) at exit 7a.
All 'highway' :bigass:
PS: 76-295-195-95 is shorter.
Quote from: vdeane on March 25, 2014, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: DevalDragon on March 25, 2014, 02:27:01 AM
but I cannot figure out where they reconnect on the NJ side
They don't.
NJ has two southern terminuses for I-95. The Penn Turnpike DE River Bridge (midway at the PA Line) and on the Scudders Falls Bridge (also at the PA Line). Right now it is awkward until the PTC finishes that interchange between the PA Turnpike and I-95 in which I-74 in NC will beat that deadline (with that being centuries away) at the rate they are going at it.
Think of it this way, I-95 is in two segments right now, and they both do not line up.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 04:12:14 AM
Use Google Maps or nearly any paper map from PA or NJ and you'll see 95's routing. 95 goes thru Philly, up the PA side of the river. It crosses into NJ northwest of Trenton. 95 and 295 meet, for all intent and purpose, at US 1 northeast of Trenton.
And the Somerset Freeway was to branch off somewhere west of there, right?
http://raymondcmartinjr.com/njfreeways/Interstate_95_Gap.html
Just north of Exit 5 for NJ 31 the median widens which was where the Somerset Freeway would have connected. From NJ 31 to US 1 was to be originally I-295 and was even signed up until the late 80's. The exit numbers were even changed as they had all upper 60 numbers up until the proposed interchange site which was marked with end signs for both routes.
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2014, 02:53:23 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2014, 04:12:14 AM
Use Google Maps or nearly any paper map from PA or NJ and you'll see 95's routing. 95 goes thru Philly, up the PA side of the river. It crosses into NJ northwest of Trenton. 95 and 295 meet, for all intent and purpose, at US 1 northeast of Trenton.
And the Somerset Freeway was to branch off somewhere west of there, right?
Take a look here: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=110931979218146476547.000464dcac0441ca9e76b
http://raymondcmartinjr.com/njfreeways/Interstate_95_Gap_Map5.html
This is from the DEIS. Note that part of the US-206 Hillsborough bypass actually uses right-of-way through the Bell Meade area that I-95 was planned to use.
Quote from: NE2 on March 25, 2014, 02:32:39 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on March 25, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
Only all highway connection from Philly to NYC is 95 north to 295 south to 195 east to 95 north(NJT) at exit 7a.
All 'highway' :bigass:
PS: 76-295-195-95 is shorter.
Depending on where in Philadelphia you're coming from, you could also do I-676 to I-76 to I-295.
One good thing about this mess: intercity bus service in southern NJ. There is a rail link between Philadelphia and NYC, so South Jersey is left out in the cold as far as trains are concerned. I wonder if Mount Laurel Greyhound and Cherry Hill Megabus stops will be eliminated once the I-95 interchange is complete. I suppose service from NYC and points north to Wilmington and points south will continue to bypass PA, but will they bother getting off the Turnpike to make Mount Laurel and get back on again? The Cherry Hill one is probably toast, though, since it only exists on the Philly to NYC route.
Quote from: bzakharin on March 26, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
One good thing about this mess: intercity bus service in southern NJ. There is a rail link between Philadelphia and NYC, so South Jersey is left out in the cold as far as trains are concerned. I wonder if Mount Laurel Greyhound and Cherry Hill Megabus stops will be eliminated once the I-95 interchange is complete. I suppose service from NYC and points north to Wilmington and points south will continue to bypass PA, but will they bother getting off the Turnpike to make Mount Laurel and get back on again? The Cherry Hill one is probably toast, though, since it only exists on the Philly to NYC route.
Well, again, an all-highway route already exists.
Megabus and Grayhound are private companies, and as such are in the business to make money. If they Cherry Hill stop is profitable to them, they'll continue to stop there.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2014, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 26, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
One good thing about this mess: intercity bus service in southern NJ. There is a rail link between Philadelphia and NYC, so South Jersey is left out in the cold as far as trains are concerned. I wonder if Mount Laurel Greyhound and Cherry Hill Megabus stops will be eliminated once the I-95 interchange is complete. I suppose service from NYC and points north to Wilmington and points south will continue to bypass PA, but will they bother getting off the Turnpike to make Mount Laurel and get back on again? The Cherry Hill one is probably toast, though, since it only exists on the Philly to NYC route.
Well, again, an all-highway route already exists.
Megabus and Grayhound are private companies, and as such are in the business to make money. If they Cherry Hill stop is profitable to them, they'll continue to stop there.
It exists, but is not the fastest route. I imagine the profitability of a stop depends on how much it adds to the overall travel time. If the bus is already on NJ 38, in case of Cherry Hill, or exiting the turnpike at exit 4 in case of Mount Laurel, it only adds the time needed to pull over and load/unload the passengers. If the faster route from Philadelphia would otherwise be north on I-95, the time spent detouring through southern NJ needs to be figured into the calculation.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 25, 2014, 05:58:28 PM
http://raymondcmartinjr.com/njfreeways/Interstate_95_Gap_Map5.html
This is from the DEIS. Note that part of the US-206 Hillsborough bypass actually uses right-of-way through the Bell Meade area that I-95 was planned to use.
And yet I don't think it was ever explicitly reserved for such a purpose. That map shows I-95 being built through nothing but farm fields. A glance at a modern maps shows that all sorts of suburban subdivisions have since been built in what would have been the highway's path.
The gap in I-95 can easily be fixed by building an interchange with the PA Tpk, if the PTC ever gets off their ass to do that.
The real loss is that without the Somerset Freeway, traffic (especially truck traffic) from SE PA, Baltimore, and DC to New England and eastern NY is largely forced to travel through NYC. A freeway roughly along the US 206 corridor between Trenton and Bridgewater would give such traffic better options to bypass NYC.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2014, 08:25:08 PM
The real loss is that without the Somerset Freeway, traffic (especially truck traffic) from SE PA, Baltimore, and DC to New England and eastern NY is largely forced to travel through NYC. A freeway roughly along the US 206 corridor between Trenton and Bridgewater would give such traffic better options to bypass NYC.
Coming from Philly, that would save about 15 miles over NJ 18. Coming from Baltimore, the difference is only ten miles. On a several-hundred-mile trip, that's not much.
Quote from: NE2 on March 26, 2014, 08:52:27 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2014, 08:25:08 PM
The real loss is that without the Somerset Freeway, traffic (especially truck traffic) from SE PA, Baltimore, and DC to New England and eastern NY is largely forced to travel through NYC. A freeway roughly along the US 206 corridor between Trenton and Bridgewater would give such traffic better options to bypass NYC.
Coming from Philly, that would save about 15 miles over NJ 18. Coming from Baltimore, the difference is only ten miles. On a several-hundred-mile trip, that's not much.
15 miles is 15 more minutes of traffic delay you have to avoid in order to break even. This may not be terribly significant for the individual traveler but it is potentially significant for congestion on the Cross Bronx, especially if you can divert trucks.
Also, consider that while the Somerset Freeway route may save only 15 miles over NJTP/NJ 18,
if you are already on the Turnpike you save
35 miles between New Brunswick and Connecticut by staying on I-95 versus taking I-287 around. Heading to I-84? Staying on the turnpike saves you 36 miles if you're a truck and 42 miles if you're a car. These are the comparisons people are going to make and they definitely encourage traffic to go through NYC. Don't believe me? Just look at how many long haul trucks are on the Cross Bronx. If it made more sense for them to go another way, they would!
I was calculating the difference between using a hypothetical Somerset Freeway and taking I-95 to NJ 18 to I-287. Coming from Baltimore, even a Somerset Freeway would add 24 miles over the Cross Bronx to New Haven or Boston (28 to Boston if you can't use the Saw Mill). If someone's not going to add 35 miles to bypass the Cross Bronx, there's a good chance they won't add 25 miles either.
PS: bypassing Philly adds another 8 miles if you're Somerset Freeway-bound.
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Quote from: bzakharin on March 26, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
One good thing about this mess: intercity bus service in southern NJ. There is a rail link between Philadelphia and NYC, so South Jersey is left out in the cold as far as trains are concerned. I wonder if Mount Laurel Greyhound and Cherry Hill Megabus stops will be eliminated once the I-95 interchange is complete. I suppose service from NYC and points north to Wilmington and points south will continue to bypass PA, but will they bother getting off the Turnpike to make Mount Laurel and get back on again? The Cherry Hill one is probably toast, though, since it only exists on the Philly to NYC route.
Is that new? I took Megabus from NYC to Philadelphia last year and there was no stop in Cherry Hill.
Quote from: dgolub on March 27, 2014, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 26, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
One good thing about this mess: intercity bus service in southern NJ. There is a rail link between Philadelphia and NYC, so South Jersey is left out in the cold as far as trains are concerned. I wonder if Mount Laurel Greyhound and Cherry Hill Megabus stops will be eliminated once the I-95 interchange is complete. I suppose service from NYC and points north to Wilmington and points south will continue to bypass PA, but will they bother getting off the Turnpike to make Mount Laurel and get back on again? The Cherry Hill one is probably toast, though, since it only exists on the Philly to NYC route.
Is that new? I took Megabus from NYC to Philadelphia last year and there was no stop in Cherry Hill.
My apologies. It's Bolt that stops in Cherry Hill (it's a secondary stop that most, but not all, buses make). Megabus has a secondary stop in center city Philadelphia instead (In addition to the main stop at 30th street station). Always confuse those two.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2014, 10:14:18 PM
Quote from: NE2 on March 26, 2014, 08:52:27 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 26, 2014, 08:25:08 PM
The real loss is that without the Somerset Freeway, traffic (especially truck traffic) from SE PA, Baltimore, and DC to New England and eastern NY is largely forced to travel through NYC. A freeway roughly along the US 206 corridor between Trenton and Bridgewater would give such traffic better options to bypass NYC.
Coming from Philly, that would save about 15 miles over NJ 18. Coming from Baltimore, the difference is only ten miles. On a several-hundred-mile trip, that's not much.
15 miles is 15 more minutes of traffic delay you have to avoid in order to break even. This may not be terribly significant for the individual traveler but it is potentially significant for congestion on the Cross Bronx, especially if you can divert trucks.
Also, consider that while the Somerset Freeway route may save only 15 miles over NJTP/NJ 18, if you are already on the Turnpike you save 35 miles between New Brunswick and Connecticut by staying on I-95 versus taking I-287 around. Heading to I-84? Staying on the turnpike saves you 36 miles if you're a truck and 42 miles if you're a car. These are the comparisons people are going to make and they definitely encourage traffic to go through NYC. Don't believe me? Just look at how many long haul trucks are on the Cross Bronx. If it made more sense for them to go another way, they would!
But also consider the cronic congestion issues on 95 in Chester & Philly (whcih are going to get worse when the direct connect with 95 & the PA Turnpike is finished).
And consider the speed limits (if the truck goes the legal speed limit). It's only 55 mph thru all of PA, whereas it's 65 mph on the NJ Turnpike thru the same distance. At about 60 miles or so, that's 10 miles further one can get by using the NJ Turnpike vs. PA's I-95. Even if a truck used 295 to 195 to avoid the tolls, the speed limit is 65 mph thruout much of that stretch.
With regards to the ROUTE GAP as well as ROUTE CONTINUITY, wouldn't this be a better candidate for a I-95W and I-95E split instead. I-95E wouls follow the Turnpike on the New Jersey Side and I-95W goes through Philly and reconnects to the Turnpikes via the new planned gap closure at I-376 (PA TPK)
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
A few things:
1. PennDOT built their stretch of I-95 not the PTC.
2.
Plans were already in the works to build an PA Turnpike/I-95 interchange well before NJ's cancellation of the Somerset Freeway. The original plan called for conventional trumpet interchange w/the Turnpike w/an extension of the connector road that presently links I-95 (at Exit 40) & PA 413 in Bristol, Bucks County. A toll plaza would've been located along this new connector extension. When word got out that the NJ Freeway was cancelled circa 1982 (one needs to remember that I-295 & 195 east of Trenton weren't complete at the time (such wouldn't happen until nearly a decade later); otherwise, I-295 north of Exit 60 and I-195 west of Exit 6
could've easily been the de-facto I-95); the original interchange design was scrapped and work for the current design & relocation (to Middletown Township), along with the
related-permitting started.
3. Since the highway in question is an
Interstate highway; PennDOT (& probably the PTC) were, no doubt, at least briefed when the possible cancellation of I-95 in NJ became certain given the close proximity of the proposed highway segment (the southern connection) to the state line.
Since I-95 through Philly was already complete when the decision to kill off the Somerset Freeway was made (the entire PA segment of I-95 was fully complete minus the
missing link at PHL airport by then); any proposals to either have I-95 completely bypass PA & Philadelphia (either along the entire NJ Turnpike or along most of I-295) were likely considered to be non-starters.
Quote from: Indyroads on March 27, 2014, 09:50:32 AM
With regards to the ROUTE GAP as well as ROUTE CONTINUITY, wouldn't this be a better candidate for a I-95W and I-95E split instead. I-95E wouls follow the Turnpike on the New Jersey Side and I-95W goes through Philly and reconnects to the Turnpikes via the new planned gap closure at I-376 (PA TPK)
Entering Fantasy/Fiction territory here but I would recommend:
1. Making the NJ Turnpike, the Delaware Memorial Bridge and I-295 in DE and NJ southwest of NJ Turnpike's Exit 1 to be I-95E (similar to your suggestion).
2. Make I-95 between the two-I-495 connetions in DE I-95W.
3. Have the future (post-interchange connection) I-95 in NJ & PA remain and have the current I-495 in DE become I-95.
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Short answer: because Congress made 'em.
Longer answer: see this thread: www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5430.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5430.0) (I-95 gap in NJ) for details.
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Simple, so everybody can shit all over Pennsylvania and pretend it's their fault.
Quote from: Gnutella on March 27, 2014, 01:13:29 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Simple, so everybody can shit all over Pennsylvania and pretend it's their fault.
It's an interstate highway. I don't think anyone in PA took it personally.
And in a way, it could be considered PA's problem. I-95 is nothing more than a route designation. 95 could have been rerouted to cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge and come up the NJ Turnpike. But that would leave Philly (and Wilmington) off the I-95 corridor. In exchange for keeping 95's routing thru those cities, they can come up with the interchange to keep 95 moving relatively North/South.
Does VA and Maryland whine that the traffic on the Beltway should be DC's problem?
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Regardless of the problem, PTC created a problem by not interchanging with 95 when it came through. There had been proposals including a road off the 413/895 trumpet and completing the 13 freeway, but nothing has happened. It's overdue even if 95 were complete.
Quote from: Alps on March 27, 2014, 10:59:02 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Regardless of the problem, PTC created a problem by not interchanging with 95 when it came through. There had been proposals including a road off the 413/895 trumpet and completing the 13 freeway, but nothing has happened. It's overdue even if 95 were complete.
Once upon a time, there were federal laws prohibiting toll highways from having direct access to free highways. That's the feds' fault, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Gnutella on March 28, 2014, 04:16:05 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 27, 2014, 10:59:02 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Regardless of the problem, PTC created a problem by not interchanging with 95 when it came through. There had been proposals including a road off the 413/895 trumpet and completing the 13 freeway, but nothing has happened. It's overdue even if 95 were complete.
Once upon a time, there were federal laws prohibiting toll highways from having direct access to free highways. That's the feds' fault, as far as I'm concerned.
That's utter bullshit, considering almost every interchange on a toll highway connects to a free one.
Quote from: Alps on March 28, 2014, 07:32:23 AMconsidering almost every interchange on a toll highway connects to a free one.
Such wasn't always the case... at least involving toll road connections w/
free Interstates. OTOH, connections w/non-Interstate highways or ones that were
grandfathered into the system were allowed.
http://www.paturnpikei95.com/history1.htm (http://www.paturnpikei95.com/history1.htm)
Excerpt from link (
Bold emphasis added):
Quote1969
I-95 is completed through Bucks County. Original plan includes a full interchange between the PA Turnpike and I-95, but federal funds were not permitted to be used to connect an Interstate highway to a toll road, under federal laws and regulations of that period. (The federal laws have since been modified to permit such a project.)
If one looks at the PA Turnpike, there are still some non-direct (examples: Breezewood & Carlisle) connections w/interstates.
Maybe that's why the I-90/I-91 interchange on the West Springfield/Holyoke, MA town line looks like this?
http://goo.gl/maps/AhKWF
(I think it's actually because US Route 5 nearby pre-dates I-91.)
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on March 28, 2014, 09:52:34 AM
Maybe that's why the I-90/I-91 interchange on the West Springfield/Holyoke, MA town line looks like this?
http://goo.gl/maps/AhKWF
(I think it's actually because US Route 5 nearby pre-dates I-91.)
Correct on both counts.
Here's how the area looked circa 1957 (http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=6&lon=-72.63524904419897&lat=42.15118720621616&year=1957).
The 1971 image shows the added connections to I-91 (http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=6&lon=-72.63524904419897&lat=42.15118720621616&year=1971).
That law says funding can't be used, not that the connection can't be made. There's no reason the PTC couldn't have built it with their own money, like the Thruway, MassPike, Ohio Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike, and others did (though the Thruway had it easy since it was mostly built at the same time as the other interstates, I-84 being the big exception). Pennsylvania is the ONLY place where these non-connections are so pervasive. It would stand to reason, then, that this is caused by something intrinsic to PA, not that federal law.
Quote from: vdeane on March 28, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
That law says funding can't be used, not that the connection can't be made. There's no reason the PTC couldn't have built it with their own money, like the Thruway, MassPike, Ohio Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike, and others did (though the Thruway had it easy since it was mostly built at the same time as the other interstates, I-84 being the big exception). Pennsylvania is the ONLY place where these non-connections are so pervasive. It would stand to reason, then, that this is caused by something intrinsic to PA, not that federal law.
It's called money. the PTC would have to maintain sections of the ramps to or from the non toll road. For example breezewood PA, they only maintain the bit to get from the turnpike/I-70 to US30 if i remember correctly, and the bit from I-70 to connect to the turnpike segment via us30 was federally funded.
If they do not see a potential return on the new interchange, then why build it
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 27, 2014, 01:24:31 PM
Does VA and Maryland whine that the traffic on the Beltway should be DC's problem?
Maryland and especially Virginia should have demanded that the District of Columbia fund at least some of the interchange reconstruction costs associated with the rerouting of I-95 around the south and east sides of D.C., but as far as I know, they never did.
Quote from: Alps on March 27, 2014, 10:59:02 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on March 27, 2014, 08:35:55 AM
I still don't get why PTC has to fix a New Jersey problem. Didn't they build their 95?
Regardless of the problem, PTC created a problem by not interchanging with 95 when it came through. There had been proposals including a road off the 413/895 trumpet and completing the 13 freeway, but nothing has happened. It's overdue even if 95 were complete.
[
Emphasis added above]
That is the shortest and best discussion of the current state of non-contiguous I-95 in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
But then, the PTC has
repeatedly failed to properly connect "free" sections of Pennsylvania freeways and expressways to the Mainline and Northeast Extension parts of its system.
Quote from: vdeane on March 28, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
That law says funding can't be used, not that the connection can't be made. There's no reason the PTC couldn't have built it with their own money, like the Thruway, MassPike, Ohio Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike, and others did (though the Thruway had it easy since it was mostly built at the same time as the other interstates, I-84 being the big exception). Pennsylvania is the ONLY place where these non-connections are so pervasive. It would stand to reason, then, that this is caused by something intrinsic to PA, not that federal law.
I believe the federal provisions that made it difficult to connect new "free" Interstates and other freeways and expressways to toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike no longer apply.
As I understand it, the breezewoods remain in Pennsylvania because of excessive influence by land owners and businesses along the arterial sections of road that traffic must use to get from the Turnpike interchange to the crossing freeway or expressway. Examples including Pa. 601 in Somerset, Business U.S. 220 in Bedford, U.S. 30 in Breezewood, U.S. 11 in Carlisle, along Pa. 940 near Pocono and along Pa. 315 near Pittston and Scranton.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 28, 2014, 04:41:42 PM
As I understand it, the breezewoods remain in Pennsylvania because of excessive influence by land owners and businesses along the arterial sections of road that traffic must use to get from the Turnpike interchange to the crossing freeway or expressway. Examples including Pa. 601 in Somerset, Business U.S. 220 in Bedford, U.S. 30 in Breezewood, U.S. 11 in Carlisle, along Pa. 940 near Pocono and along Pa. 315 near Pittston and Scranton.
PA 940 isn't used to access I-80 or the NE Extension of the PA Turnpike (depending on the direction of travel). It is only crossed at a signalized intersection.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on March 28, 2014, 04:15:01 PM
It's called money. the PTC would have to maintain sections of the ramps to or from the non toll road. For example breezewood PA, they only maintain the bit to get from the turnpike/I-70 to US30 if i remember correctly, and the bit from I-70 to connect to the turnpike segment via us30 was federally funded.
If they do not see a potential return on the new interchange, then why build it
Because it's the right thing to do.
Well the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has been too busy reconstructing and widening the 73-year-old Turnpike to worry about direct connections with all free Interstates at the moment, so deal with it. And you all know goddamn well that if somebody proposed a direct connection with I-95 back in the 1970's or 1980's, it would have immediately been blasted out of the sky by NIMBYs. Fuck, it's in Bucks County, the same county that thought the U.S. 202 "parkway" was a worthwhile compromise. And the interchanges where businesses haven't bitched about losing business have already been upgraded, such as I-376 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.8381525&lon=-80.3738152&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9) in Big Beaver Township, I-79 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.6775706&lon=-80.0998597&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-376 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.4378428&lon=-79.7529321&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9) in Monroeville, I-70 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.2226731&lon=-79.6037798&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9) in New Stanton, U.S. 15 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.1977652&lon=-76.9761806&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-83 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.2112854&lon=-76.8763488&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-283/PA 283 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.2178521&lon=-76.7877232&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), U.S. 222 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.217852&lon=-76.0817658&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-176 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.1623498&lon=-75.8824026&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-76/U.S. 202/U.S. 422 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.0856934&lon=-75.4053341&z=15&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-476 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.109986&lon=-75.2831327&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), PA 309 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.1339911&lon=-75.1981603&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-78/U.S. 22/PA 309 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.5894536&lon=-75.570923&z=14&l=0&m=s&v=9), I-81 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=41.3102879&lon=-75.7588707&z=16&l=0&m=s&v=9) in Pittston Township and I-81 (http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=41.4827899&lon=-75.6813817&z=17&l=0&m=s&v=9) in Clarks Summit. I bet none of you knew there were that many direct connections already.
And with a direct connection to I-95 already in progress, that leaves PA 28, U.S. 219, I-99, I-70 in Breezewood, I-81 in Carlisle and I-80 as the only junctions with no direct connections to limited-access highways. That means 15 of 22 junctions along the Turnpike and the Northeast Extension already have direct connections, with six not on the table yet, and four of those six involving businesses that are ready to shoot down any proposal. It's already expensive enough to reconstruct and six-lane the Turnpike, dig a whole new Allegheny Mountain Tunnel, and reduce the debt from all those subsidies to PennDOT after Ed Rendell's I-80 tolling proposal fell through. Class-action lawsuits from dozens of business owners just aren't worth dealing with right now. Maybe after 2020, when most of the Turnpike has been reconstructed.
Quote from: vdeane on March 28, 2014, 04:47:15 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on March 28, 2014, 04:15:01 PM
It's called money. the PTC would have to maintain sections of the ramps to or from the non toll road. For example breezewood PA, they only maintain the bit to get from the turnpike/I-70 to US30 if i remember correctly, and the bit from I-70 to connect to the turnpike segment via us30 was federally funded.
If they do not see a potential return on the new interchange, then why build it
Because it's the right thing to do.
Why should my state pay for it, even if it is the right thing to do? Road projects cost money and I rather PA taxes or loans didn't go to fixing another state problem.
NJ and PA should have jointly paid for the connection when I-95 came through.
I will be the first PA citizen to admit our roads and Interstate aren't up to par (similar to the PA Line in the Continental Army) but NJ's problem should be solved by NJ.
Because this isn't just the I-95 interchange, but every breezewood on the Turnpike? Also, PA's choices boiled down to "build the interchange or lose I-95"; I'm pretty sure NJ would have been happy to have I-95 on the Turnpike down to the Delaware Memorial Bridge. Had the I-95 interchange been built in the fist place, it probably would have been grandfathered in when the reroute happened and this whole saga would have been over in the 80s.
The I-81 Pittston interchange is technically a breezewood since traffic has to take PA 315. And, if you're being really anal, the I-78 one isn't a direct interstate-to-interstate connection.
Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2014, 06:44:44 PM
The I-81 Pittston interchange is technically a breezewood since traffic has to take PA 315. And, if you're being really anal, the I-78 one isn't a direct interstate-to-interstate connection.
I'd almost let I-78 slide. No toll road agency would have built that connection with US 22; an already freeway-to-freeway connection established right next door.
PA played their cards right. We got I-95 and didn't need to pay for a costly construction of an interchange.
The remaining Breezewoods on the Turnpike are hardly that drastic.
Quote from: Gnutella on March 29, 2014, 01:04:52 AMsomebody proposed a direct connection with I-95 back in the 1970's or 1980's, it would have immediately been blasted out of the sky by NIMBYs.
You might want to re-read that historical account on the fore-mentioned PTC's website. I-95 in that area was fully constructed by 19
69; just prior to the NIMBY stuff hitting the fan (at least for Bucks County).
Quote from: Gnutella on March 29, 2014, 01:04:52 AMit's in Bucks County, the same county that thought the U.S. 202 "parkway" was a worthwhile compromise.
For the record, the ones that actually whined & pressed then-Gov. Rendell shortly after taking office in 2003 to downsize the 202 Bypass Extension to the current
Parkway were
not the ones that resided near the corridor but actually those that lived north of the older 70s-era bypass... Buckingham Township in particular. Their
*Ahem* concern was that the southern extension would've motivated pressure to construct a northern extension.
As for the PA Turnpike
prensently having direct interchanges with other
Interstate highways is concerned; if one looks at various historical aerials, many of those interchanges were either:
1. Recently added/modified (ex. I-176).
2. Already there
prior to said-Interstate being built.
3. The free highway in question wasn't originally an Interstate (ex. I-376 was originally part of PA 60).
My understanding is that the now-gone prohibition
only applied towards federal funding of direct interchanges between toll roads and
Interstates. If the free highway in question was either a US or state (PA) route; I don't believe such a restriction applied... mainly due to the non-Interstate highway having a higher percentage of state funding vs. federal funding at the time.
Guess on my part.
Long story short (& back to the topic at hand); a direct interchange connection between I-95 and the PTC
should've happened when I-95 was first built regardless of what was going on w/I-95 in NJ at the time. I believe we all can agree on that. And if federal funding prohibition was such; the PTC could've back then fully funded the connection themselves.
While come of the other non-direct connections along the PA Tunrpike may be somewhat understandable given the population and traffic loads
at the time; the same can not be said for the busy northeast corridor then or now.
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
3. The free highway in question wasn't originally an Interstate (ex. I-376 was originally part of PA 60).
This particular example doesn't fit, since the intersecting highway is a turnpike toll road as well. Though there is also local access to PA-351. This does mean that I-76 to WB (heading NB) I-376 has to contend with a stop sign and a left turn.
Quote from: Mr_Northside on March 31, 2014, 02:06:19 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
3. The free highway in question wasn't originally an Interstate (ex. I-376 was originally part of PA 60).
This particular example doesn't fit, since the intersecting highway is a turnpike toll road as well. Though there is also local access to PA-351. This does mean that I-76 to WB (heading NB) I-376 has to contend with a stop sign and a left turn.
Fair enough. A better example would probably be the Valley Forge interchange. The original route number for the Schuylkill Expressway
was PA 43 before it became an Interstate (first I-80S then the current I-76).
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
For the record, the ones that actually whined & pressed then-Gov. Rendell shortly after taking office in 2003 to downsize the 202 Bypass Extension to the current Parkway were not the ones that resided near the corridor but actually those that lived north of the older 70s-era bypass... Buckingham Township in particular. Their *Ahem* concern was that the southern extension would've motivated pressure to construct a northern extension.
As a former PennDOT District 6-0 employee (in which district the US 202 project resides), I can vouch for the truth of this.
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on March 31, 2014, 02:06:19 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
3. The free highway in question wasn't originally an Interstate (ex. I-376 was originally part of PA 60).
This particular example doesn't fit, since the intersecting highway is a turnpike toll road as well. Though there is also local access to PA-351. This does mean that I-76 to WB (heading NB) I-376 has to contend with a stop sign and a left turn.
Fair enough. A better example would probably be the Valley Forge interchange. The original route number for the Schuylkill Expressway was PA 43 before it became an Interstate (first I-80S then the current I-76).
Interesting, the old PA 43 is associated with I-76, the new one is associated with the PA Turnpike.
Quote from: Alps on March 31, 2014, 09:33:26 PMInteresting, the old PA 43 is associated with I-76, the new one is associated with the PA Turnpike.
According to Steve Anderson's page (scroll down) (http://www.phillyroads.com/roads/schuylkill/), the Schuylkill Expressway had the PA 43 designation until 1958 when it became an Interstate.
You're right it is interesting (if not coincidental) that the current PA 43 is associated w/the PA Turnpike.