:bigass:http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/print-edition/2014/03/21/new-cape-bridge-on-horizon.html?full=true&page=all
Paywalled article. Main points, in summary:
- MassDOT has hired consultants to look into strategies for building a new twin to the Sagamore Bridge, similar aesthetically to the current one
- Bridge would be built using public-private partnership -- 30-year lease then revert to Mass. control
- Funding would be via tolls of $5 roundtrip over 30 years, collected via ORT
- 1.9-mile access road (location unspecified) to be built to MA 25 using power line ROW
- MassDOT would conduct environmental review before selecting lease partner
- Minimum 6-7 year process
This idea is so in its infancy, it's hard to make serious commentary about it, but I'm surprised to see it moving this much. Public hearings may happen after the idea is presented at a May meeting of a MassDOT commission on public-private partnerships.
Everyone is going to use the free Sagamore bridge instead of the new tolled one unless there is extreme traffic.
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2014, 09:15:46 PM
Everyone is going to use the free Sagamore bridge instead of the new tolled one unless there is extreme traffic.
The existing bridge would be made one-way, forming a pair with the new bridge.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 28, 2014, 09:43:37 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2014, 09:15:46 PM
Everyone is going to use the free Sagamore bridge instead of the new tolled one unless there is extreme traffic.
The existing bridge would be made one-way, forming a pair with the new bridge.
Will the new bridge go into or out of Cape Cod?
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2014, 09:46:09 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 28, 2014, 09:43:37 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2014, 09:15:46 PM
Everyone is going to use the free Sagamore bridge instead of the new tolled one unless there is extreme traffic.
The existing bridge would be made one-way, forming a pair with the new bridge.
Will the new bridge go into or out of Cape Cod?
It would be three lanes onto the Cape. The existing bridge would become three lanes off.
The Third Crossing just won't die. Meanwhile, I get the feeling Cape residents like the delays, because it keeps the Cape from becoming overcommercialized - limits the demand to people willing to sit in traffic that long.
Non-paywalled coverage:
State may add 3rd Cape Cod bridge:
http://m.wcvb.com/news/state-may-add-3rd-cape-cod-bridge/24665612
Double vision for Cape Cod Canal bridges:
http://m.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20131214/NEWS/312140341&template=wapart
Twin Sagamore Bridge idea taken seriously by the state:
http://m.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140225/NEWS/402250323&template=wapart
I'd be interested to see what the auxiliary road to Rte 25 would look like... At least there is a ROW to prevent any NIMBYism.
Quote from: Alps on March 28, 2014, 11:06:32 PM
The Third Crossing just won't die. Meanwhile, I get the feeling Cape residents like the delays, because it keeps the Cape from becoming overcommercialized - limits the demand to people willing to sit in traffic that long.
Agreed 100%.
Quote from: southshore720 on March 29, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
I'd be interested to see what the auxiliary road to Rte 25 would look like... At least there is a ROW to prevent any NIMBYism.
Once upon a time, Rte. 25 was proposed to run further east to Rte. 3 but the now-25 year old extension (of MA 25) from US 6 to MA 28 sat in limbo during the 70s and most of the 80s essentially killing off the plan.
Quote from: Alps on March 28, 2014, 11:06:32 PM
The Third Crossing just won't die. Meanwhile, I get the feeling Cape residents like the delays, because it keeps the Cape from becoming overcommercialized - limits the demand to people willing to sit in traffic that long.
True.. have you visited the Hamptons?
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: southshore720 on March 29, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
I'd be interested to see what the auxiliary road to Rte 25 would look like... At least there is a ROW to prevent any NIMBYism.
Once upon a time, Rte. 25 was proposed to run further east to Rte. 3 but the now-25 year old extension (of MA 25) from US 6 to MA 28 sat in limbo during the 70s and most of the 80s essentially killing off the plan.
I remember as a kid in the 80's going to the cape when MA 25 ended at the US 6 to MA 28 exit, traffic was horrible in the summer, especially on weekends. It would take people hours to get thru Onset/Buzzards Bay on US 6 and 28 to just to get to the Bourne Bridge. I also remember after they finished MA 25 to the Bourne Bridge, a lot of the businesses on US 6 / MA 28 in Buzzards Bay went under as all their clientele suddenly evaporated.
I get the idea of building a new bridge next to the Sagamore and tolling it to pay for the new span, they did the same thing with the Tacoma Narrows bridge in WA. The difference here is that you still have the Bourne bridge which is free, so people will just use that span to get around the toll.
They have three options here:
1) Build a new span for the Sagamore and not toll it (find another way to fund it).
2) Build two new spans for both the Boune and Sagamore and toll the new spans (most practical solution but also the most costly).
3) Do nothing and just live with the status quo (whats most likely going to happen).
Quote from: doogie1303 on April 08, 2014, 09:25:13 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 31, 2014, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: southshore720 on March 29, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
I'd be interested to see what the auxiliary road to Rte 25 would look like... At least there is a ROW to prevent any NIMBYism.
Once upon a time, Rte. 25 was proposed to run further east to Rte. 3 but the now-25 year old extension (of MA 25) from US 6 to MA 28 sat in limbo during the 70s and most of the 80s essentially killing off the plan.
I remember as a kid in the 80's going to the cape when MA 25 ended at the US 6 to MA 28 exit, traffic was horrible in the summer, especially on weekends. It would take people hours to get thru Onset/Buzzards Bay on US 6 and 28 to just to get to the Bourne Bridge. I also remember after they finished MA 25 to the Bourne Bridge, a lot of the businesses on US 6 / MA 28 in Buzzards Bay went under as all their clientele suddenly evaporated.
I get the idea of building a new bridge next to the Sagamore and tolling it to pay for the new span, they did the same thing with the Tacoma Narrows bridge in WA. The difference here is that you still have the Bourne bridge which is free, so people will just use that span to get around the toll.
They have three options here:
1) Build a new span for the Sagamore and not toll it (find another way to fund it).
2) Build two new spans for both the Boune and Sagamore and toll the new spans (most practical solution but also the most costly).
3) Do nothing and just live with the status quo (whats most likely going to happen).
4) Build second Sagamore, toll Bourne and Sagamore
5) Make a reallly big improvement in travel ease/access to new Sagamore, toll it and don't toll Bourne. Discourage traffic onto the Bourne using the usual tricks (little/secondary mention on signs, complicated, indirect exits, etc). This feels like the likely approach to me, but who knows.
For traffic headed from Boston to Hyannis and the outer cape, the toll would have to be ridiculously high to make it worth while to detour via the Bourne. The added distance and traffic on the canal-side roads, plus dealing with the Bourne Bridge rotaries, would be enough to keep traffic from MA-3 to US-6 east from going around. Traffic headed towards Falmouth/Woods Hole area would probably divert to the Bourne to get to MA-28 south, but that is probably the way much of that traffic goes anyway.
Tolling the Bourne won't happen, as the two existing bridges are actually owned by the Army Corps of Engineers, like the US-13 and US-301 Bridges over the C&D Canal in Delaware. They are mandated by law to be free of tolls. The new Sagamore span would be a MassDOT bridge and the only one allowed to be tolled.
Let's go with tolled Sagamore and untolled Bourne. Somewhere around a 2-hour delay for the free bridge and 5 minutes for the toll bridge, people will stop detouring to the Bourne.
The extra lane each way is probably not going to make much of a difference since they aren't going to widen US 6...you'll still have the bottlenecks each way.
Quote from: southshore720 on April 09, 2014, 05:20:59 PM
The extra lane each way is probably not going to make much of a difference since they aren't going to widen US 6...you'll still have the bottlenecks each way.
I thought about this. How bad does the traffic get on 6 east of the bridge going on-Cape? I have been in it pretty bad coming off, but on 6 East after the bridge I've never had a lot of trouble in my admittedly limited Cape experience.
Traffic on US 6/Mid Cape Highway can get pretty brutal. Especially in the Super-2 section. Hopefully the bridge construction will make them realize that widening US-6 would be great as well. I have a lot of childhood memories on the Cape so it would be nice to see a widening. :bigass:
I've only been on the cape once, but the present bridges are two narrow lanes in each direction, undivided, with no shoulders. I can't remember the posted speed limit, but I can imagine that people coming down MA 3 from points north encountering the bridge are also encountering heavy merge from US 6 (for those cars coming from I-495/I-195), and going from a full blown expressway (60-70 MPH) to a narrow bridge not up to today's standards. Once you get to the Cape side, the true expressway resumes and thus speeds traffic. I'd imagine a new parallel bridge would permit the present bridge to go to 2 thru lanes with shoulders and perhaps an "operational" lane to accommodate the US 6 traffic.
I think a lot of the choke outbound comes from drivers on US 6 needing to exit the freeway to head over to MA 25.
So here's what I don't get: if you are going to go through the bother and expense of building a third bridge, why not build it halfway between the existing bridges and tie it into a freeway segment linking MA 25 and US 6 adjacent to the power line ROW? I mean, come on, look at it (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7714522,-70.5612032,2894m/data=!3m1!1e3), it's begging to happen!
I think the third bridge should be next to the Cape Cod Canal Railroad Bridge, from Buzzards Bay.
(Or as a completely fictional idea, maybe Plymouth-Provincetown, US 44.)
Quote from: shadyjay on April 09, 2014, 07:14:24 PM
I've only been on the cape once, but the present bridges are two narrow lanes in each direction, undivided, with no shoulders. I can't remember the posted speed limit, but I can imagine that people coming down MA 3 from points north encountering the bridge are also encountering heavy merge from US 6 (for those cars coming from I-495/I-195), and going from a full blown expressway (60-70 MPH) to a narrow bridge not up to today's standards. Once you get to the Cape side, the true expressway resumes and thus speeds traffic. I'd imagine a new parallel bridge would permit the present bridge to go to 2 thru lanes with shoulders and perhaps an "operational" lane to accommodate the US 6 traffic.
The whole problem is the merging traffic coming onto the bridges, not the number of lanes. The bridges are each in essence a super 4 (minus the median divider and breakdown lanes). They both have onramps dumping traffic right infront of the bridges, Bourne has one on the Buzzards Bay side, Sagamore has two, one on each side of the bridge. The one on the Bourne bridge they did right by leaving enough "runway" for oncoming traffic to come up to speed for merging with MA 25 traffic. The Sagamore onramps are much closer to the bridge so oncoming traffic has not as much room to merge, hence slowing down the flow of MA 3 / US 6 traffic.
The Sagamore bridge always had problems due to how close the onramps (and former rotary) were to the bridge causing all sorts of backups. MADOT just made it worse when they removed the rotary and dumped a super 4 right into it, more traffic at higher speeds with US 6 merging right in front of the bridge.
My suggestion for people going to the cape in the summer, if you come from the south like I do (I-495 / I-195), use the Bourne bridge to get on the cape, then take the US 6 Bypass to get to the Mid-cape Highway and avoid the whole Sagamore Bridge mess.
Sagamore actually has an interesting way to mitigate the merge: the two lanes of MA 3 south become one so that the ramp from US 6 can become its own lane.
Here we go again:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/05/24/state-officials-advance-plans-for-new-cape-bridge/KgXj6rSejGVrWihhsgtmxO/story.html
Quote from: Duke87 on April 09, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
I think a lot of the choke outbound comes from drivers on US 6 needing to exit the freeway to head over to MA 25.
So here's what I don't get: if you are going to go through the bother and expense of building a third bridge, why not build it halfway between the existing bridges and tie it into a freeway segment linking MA 25 and US 6 adjacent to the power line ROW? I mean, come on, look at it (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7714522,-70.5612032,2894m/data=!3m1!1e3), it's begging to happen!
You mean something like this? (Preferably with freeway-freeway movements for 28-to-3 which I forgot to add...)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVaM7Hmu.png&hash=ae411cae4d7fd67c02e3dfd2ce064b26d2af548d)
Probably along those lines, though you drew yours right over the top of a mining quarry. A quick check of topography suggests that going north/east of the quarry is more likely.
Quote from: froggie on May 26, 2015, 07:11:58 PM
Probably along those lines, though you drew yours right over the top of a mining quarry. A quick check of topography suggests that going north/east of the quarry is more likely.
Oh, whoops, I was wondering what that is. North/east would make more sense.
Quote from: Roadsguy on May 26, 2015, 01:45:02 PM
(Preferably with freeway-freeway movements for 28-to-3 which I forgot to add...)
Do you really want a through movement crossing all three bridges?
When the Flyover proposal first came around, I though the way it should have been was a direct split between US-6 West to the left and MA-3 North to the right. A loop ramp to stay on the same road is usually a terrible idea, and in this case it cost the Flyover any effectiveness.
Both the Bourne and Sagamore bridges are Depression era (mid thirties) in age. Date placards are clearly visible as one travels up the steep upgrade to the center crest on both structures. An ideal solution would be to build parallel cable stayed structures alongside both, and retire both original bridges - to pedestrian and bike use. The geometrics are not good - narrow and steep, as they were designed in the era of flivvers (Model T's). Again this is ideal, actual realities may dictate otherwise.
Quote from: DJStephens on June 28, 2015, 04:37:51 AM
Both the Bourne and Sagamore bridges are Depression era (mid thirties) in age. Date placards are clearly visible as one travels up the steep upgrade to the center crest on both structures. An ideal solution would be to build parallel cable stayed structures alongside both, and retire both original bridges - to pedestrian and bike use. The geometrics are not good - narrow and steep, as they were designed in the era of flivvers (Model T's). Again this is ideal, actual realities may dictate otherwise.
That would be ideal. But that would cost more money than just building another span and having one way of traffic on the new span with the other way on the old span. In that case you might be able to make a bike trail but the odds aren't good if you want more lanes than 2 in each direction. If you want 3 for a redone Sagmore than you can't have the trail unless you remove the shoulders. The Bourne is pretty much the same.
It'd likely be easier to just build the bike/ped path on the new bridge. No worry about squeezing one onto the old bridge in that scenario.
Here's the question, would you support them building a modern tied arch (think Jefferson Barracks bridge or the I24 bridges in KY, or even the US13 Bridge at Saint George DE) instead of a Truss bridge like the originals?
Quote from: SteveG1988 on June 29, 2015, 12:03:53 PM
Here's the question, would you support them building a modern tied arch (think Jefferson Barracks bridge or the I24 bridges in KY, or even the US13 Bridge at Saint George DE) instead of a Truss bridge like the originals?
A modern tied arch would probably actually work better than a cable stayed for the width of the canal.
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where the Cape Cod Tunnel is. :)
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on June 29, 2015, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on June 29, 2015, 12:03:53 PM
Here's the question, would you support them building a modern tied arch (think Jefferson Barracks bridge or the I24 bridges in KY, or even the US13 Bridge at Saint George DE) instead of a Truss bridge like the originals?
A modern tied arch would probably actually work better than a cable stayed for the width of the canal.
No pun... It would tie into the design of the older bridges better.
That being said, there is nothing really preventing them from just building a bigger version of the same bridges, they are still being built to this day. NJ and PA are going to be building one within the next decade.