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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: txstateends on April 05, 2014, 07:31:42 PM

Title: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: txstateends on April 05, 2014, 07:31:42 PM
These reports are examples from Amarillo:
http://www.newschannel10.com/story/25168538/copper-theft-in-the-area
http://www.myhighplains.com/story/d/story/vandals-target-light-poles/31574/PaGNmL8Ik0anASzsYEPi0g

It's too bad there isn't some kind of secure bolt or lock mechanism where the wiring is to (maybe) keep the vandals out.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: hbelkins on April 05, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
Kentucky's had a lot of problems with this as well.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: hm insulators on April 08, 2014, 03:48:34 PM
Arizona also.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 08, 2014, 04:01:00 PM
maybe one can run an electrical current through the wires as a deterrent...
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: Truvelo on April 08, 2014, 04:11:25 PM
Scrap metal prices have fallen recently so I would have thought this sort of thing would be less attractive for thieves.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: tradephoric on April 08, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
It's a big problem in Detroit.  The state legislature is attempting to address the problem with a tough metal theft bill, but I have my doubts how effective it will be.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan-house-oks-metal-theft-bill-after-deal/25060600
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: theline on April 09, 2014, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 08, 2014, 04:01:00 PM
maybe one can run an electrical current through the wires as a deterrent...
Illegal scrappers around here were making decent incomes going underground to cut out abandoned lines, until one tried cutting a line that wasn't abandoned. It was his last act of his life, and it seemed to discourage others.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: theline on April 10, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
To clarify, I wasn't advocating electrocuting thieves. That's a little extreme. I was just pointing out the poor choice and its consequences. Leaving an intentional, potentially fatal, hazard is clearly illegal, as it should be.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: hbelkins on April 10, 2014, 09:57:58 PM
Several years ago, a fairly notorious local rogue got killed when he was electrocuted while trying to steal wire from an energized electric oil well.

More recently, a fairly notorious local ne'er-do-well was electrocuted when he tried to steal wire from an electrical "step-down" substation. He survived the electrocution and was badly injured, but was not successfully prosecuted. I never really heard why he wasn't found guilty when he was discovered unconscious and badly burned at the scene of the crime.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 14, 2014, 02:56:59 PM
Quote from: theline on April 10, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
To clarify, I wasn't advocating electrocuting thieves. That's a little extreme. I was just pointing out the poor choice and its consequences. Leaving an intentional, potentially fatal, hazard is clearly illegal, as it should be.

unless there are some OSHA regulations at play for how irrigation equipment needs to be turned off/locked out/etc to protect workers... I don't think the farmer had any obligation whatsoever to turn off the power to his equipment.  a "NO TRESPASSING - LIVE WIRES" sign is probably of sufficient legal strength; and even the absence of one isn't an invitation for thieves. 
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 14, 2014, 02:57:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 10, 2014, 09:57:58 PMI never really heard why he wasn't found guilty when he was discovered unconscious and badly burned at the scene of the crime.

on occasion, the DA and/or the grand jury will shrug and say he's gotten enough punishment.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 21, 2014, 12:39:27 PM
I read a report in a Swedish-language newspaper this morning that their national transport agency is going to be marking all electrical cables used by the railroads with some sort of a new DNA spray that is easy to detect but nearly impossible to wash off.

Cable thieves have caused a lot of railroad disruption (and injury and death, since touching a live electric cable (15,000 volts AC in Sweden) carrying traction power is not conducive to a long and healthy life).

A change in law to forbid cash transactions involving scrap metal dealers is also under consideration in Sweden. 
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: txstateends on January 24, 2015, 08:00:24 AM
More copper antics, this time, streetlights affected in Arlington, TX:
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Copper-Thieves-Targeting-Arlington-Streetlights-289642171.html
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 24, 2015, 09:01:51 AM

Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

I only play a lawyer on the Internet, but this to me sounds like an "attractive nuisance."  You can be held liable if you leave out something that someone is likely to be tempted to hurt themselves with.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: hotdogPi on January 24, 2015, 10:20:49 AM
According to at least 2 sources (one on 1959-1982 pennies, the other on many metal prices per [ounce/pound/ton]), copper prices have been going down the last few months.

I used to use "1¢/g, $10/kg" to remember copper prices, and it was fairly accurate, but it is less than that now.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: corco on January 24, 2015, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 24, 2015, 09:01:51 AM

Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

I only play a lawyer on the Internet, but this to me sounds like an "attractive nuisance."  You can be held liable if you leave out something that someone is likely to be tempted to hurt themselves with.

I feel like you'd have trouble finding a judge that agrees that leaving irrigation equipment out constitutes an attractive nuisance- irrigation equipment is massive and not easily storable.

It's more of a castle doctrine type issue, in my mind. Your right to your property doesn't exceed somebody else's right to live, and there are occasional legitimate reasons for entering somebody's property that do not constitute trespass- so you can't typically set booby traps, which is what this strikes me as. In this case the person was a metal thief so, sure, fry the bastard, but it very well could have been a kid playing where he shouldn't or somebody else you/society probably don't want to kill.

Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: corco on January 24, 2015, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 24, 2015, 09:01:51 AM

Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

I only play a lawyer on the Internet, but this to me sounds like an "attractive nuisance."  You can be held liable if you leave out something that someone is likely to be tempted to hurt themselves with.

I feel like you'd have trouble finding a judge that agrees that leaving irrigation equipment out constitutes an attractive nuisance- irrigation equipment is massive and not easily storable.

It's more of a castle doctrine type issue, in my mind. Your right to your property doesn't exceed somebody else's right to live, and there are occasional legitimate reasons for entering somebody's property that do not constitute trespass- so you can't typically set booby traps, which is what this strikes me as. In this case the person was a metal thief so, sure, fry the bastard, but it very well could have been a kid playing where he shouldn't or somebody else you/society probably don't want to kill.

But is there legitimate reason for an unauthorized person to remove the wiring from the equipment? I would think even a kid wouldn't think it was the epitome of fun to start removing live wires from machinery. One would imagine it would require some kind of tools, too, meaning you don't just accidentally pull the wiring out, it has to be a very deliberate act.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: KG909 on January 27, 2015, 09:05:18 PM
I see that shit a lot with air units not traffic signals.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: corco on January 27, 2015, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Quote from: corco on January 24, 2015, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 24, 2015, 09:01:51 AM

Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

I only play a lawyer on the Internet, but this to me sounds like an "attractive nuisance."  You can be held liable if you leave out something that someone is likely to be tempted to hurt themselves with.

I feel like you'd have trouble finding a judge that agrees that leaving irrigation equipment out constitutes an attractive nuisance- irrigation equipment is massive and not easily storable.

It's more of a castle doctrine type issue, in my mind. Your right to your property doesn't exceed somebody else's right to live, and there are occasional legitimate reasons for entering somebody's property that do not constitute trespass- so you can't typically set booby traps, which is what this strikes me as. In this case the person was a metal thief so, sure, fry the bastard, but it very well could have been a kid playing where he shouldn't or somebody else you/society probably don't want to kill.

But is there legitimate reason for an unauthorized person to remove the wiring from the equipment? I would think even a kid wouldn't think it was the epitome of fun to start removing live wires from machinery. One would imagine it would require some kind of tools, too, meaning you don't just accidentally pull the wiring out, it has to be a very deliberate act.

Usually irrigation equipment is made out of hollow steel tubes, so my impression was that the live wire was on the inside of the tube, rigging up the whole thing. Even if it was attached to the outside of the tube, the whole thing would still be wired.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: TXtoNJ on January 30, 2015, 09:53:50 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 24, 2015, 09:01:51 AM

Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

I only play a lawyer on the Internet, but this to me sounds like an "attractive nuisance."  You can be held liable if you leave out something that someone is likely to be tempted to hurt themselves with.

It isn't an attractive nuisance (that is, not something that's likely to attract the attention of children for play), but it would be considered a lethal booby trap, which almost always is illegal to use for the defense of property.
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: Zeffy on January 30, 2015, 10:00:13 AM
I remember a year or so ago, there was an article showing a time-lapse of thieves pilfering copper and other metals from buildings in Trenton. Seems to me that street lights aren't the only thing you need to watch...
Title: Re: Copper thieves/vandals still a problem for street lights
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
Quote from: Jardine on April 10, 2014, 09:41:23 AM
A farmer in NE Iowa left his irrigation equipment deliberately energized to 'surprise' metal thieves.

His wiring trick killed a metal thief, and the farmer was prosecuted.

See, a farmer knows how to farm.  He doesn't know electric though.  He should've 'accidently' energized his irrigation equipment.

Let the jury decide how much of an accident it really was.