I've wondered this for some time now...from what I can remember I know that the newer overhead retroreflective signs started to replace button copy signs in the late 1980s, especially in the east coast. From what I can tell when I travel there, it's extremely rare to find any of these older signs. However, back where I am in Southern California, I still think there are more button copy overhead signs than reflective ones and I didnt notice the newer ones until the late 90s/early 2000s here. Does anybody know more about this? Also, when did button copy signs officially stop being made?
I believe in the early 80s it stopped being made, because in the late 80s the honeycomb sheeting came out which pretty much spelled the end for button copy.
Oh, and welcome to the forum! :)
In Ohio, new button copy freeway signs were installed through the 2002 construction season.
I wonder what was the last all-button copy sign to be erected? Surely, some contractor or DOT had leftovers to assemble a replacement sign from scratch?
In 2009, this sign was erected on US 30 west of Mansifeld, Ohio. Yes, it's recycled, but still they could have gone with something other than button copy and chose not to.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.uakron.edu%2Fgenchem%2F77signs%2FCIMG9919.JPG&hash=3e7f05d1078a0950c94d157fae9d4ca84c6a2874)
The blue logo sign provider also has added button copy letters to other signs in the region as needed, so evidently they did keep some stock somewhere. I know that when I-465 miles 900-905 (the famous original stretch that became the third leg) was changed to I-865, INDOT replaced a numeral 4 with a numeral 8 on a distance sign and added the word "TO" to change I-465 EAST/US 52 EAST on two lines to I-865 EAST/TO/I-465 EAST on three lines by squeezing in the TO, both with button copy--so they either kept a small reserve or saved used parts from old signs.
Here in Texas, no-button copy signage first appeared in the early 90's if I remember correctly. It was only installed when a new sign was needed. The last time I saw new button copy installed was around 1994 when a new interchange was constructed.They didn't replace all.existing button-copy signage until 2003.
I know California was using button-copy signs up until the late 90's. When the West Valley Freeway (CA-85) opened in 1994, all signs were button-copy. Button-copy signs were also installed in 1997 when the last non-freeway segment of CA-237 between Milpitas and Mountain View was converted into a freeway.
If my memory serves me right, reflective signs started to become common in California around the turn of the century.
Quote from: Brian556 on April 29, 2014, 04:06:24 PMThey didn't replace all.existing button-copy signage until 2003.
there still is some around, here and there. quite a few examples in El Paso. I also spotted some on - I think - 820 in Fort Worth in December, and I believe there is some left in McAllen or Pharr or somewhere down there.
I believe California was using button copy until as late as 2001 or 2002, but I don't have any documentation for that. I know they had used retroreflective off and on as early as 1948, and in regular rotation since 1957 for route shields, and 1959 for smaller supplemental signs.
Illinois has a more complex history with button copy. ISTHA used it for a very long time, only changing over about 2002 or so. IDOT has used it here and there in downstate districts - for example, there's a bit around Bloomington in District 5. IDOT District 1 (Chicago area) used it extensively in the 1980s and 1990s, but did not previously or afterward.
In 2011 or 2012, an overhead all-reflective guide sign on I-71 SB in downtown Columbus was temporarily patched with a bit of greenout and a button copy down-arrow "borrowed" from an older sign elsewhere in the project. This patch was removed late last year; I'm pretty sure the sign from whence it came is no longer in service.
This is interesting...I remember SR 94 got a signage replacement around 1998 to 2000 or so and that was really the first time I saw an overhead retroreflective sign in southern CA...Also, when the I-5 was widened in the 90's it's interesting to see that a lot of the signs are a mix between reflective signs and button copy signs...probably because CA ordered the newer signs right in the middle of the I-5 widening project. Also, it seems like in some parts reflective signs are used with button copy...for example on the I-5 in this pic below there seems to be a lot "mixing" between both kinds...apparently there's an older sign from at least 50 years ago modified with more recent additions (also apparent in the upcoming sign).
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_103a_02.jpg)
I wonder why they didn't just replace the whole sign!
Quote from: joshI5 on April 29, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_103a_02.jpg)
I wonder why they didn't just replace the whole sign!
The obvious answer is it's cheaper to patch an existing sign rather than replace it with a new one. This is California we're talking about... :)
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 29, 2014, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: joshI5 on April 29, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images005/i-005_nb_exit_103a_02.jpg)
I wonder why they didn't just replace the whole sign!
The obvious answer is it's cheaper to patch an existing sign rather than replace it with a new one. This is California we're talking about... :)
True--it's just that sign ends up looking hilarious. Anyway, hopefully it won't be anytime soon that all the historic button copy signs are replaced here!
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 29, 2014, 04:11:09 PMQuote from: Brian556 on April 29, 2014, 04:06:24 PMThey didn't replace all existing button-copy signage until 2003.
there still is some around, here and there. quite a few examples in El Paso. I also spotted some on - I think - 820 in Fort Worth in December, and I believe there is some left in McAllen or Pharr or somewhere down there.
TxDOT's big changeover to retroreflective sheeting signs ran from about 1999 to about 2005. The dating is kind of fuzzy since it shows up in letting listings primarily as a higher frequency of pure signing contracts. However, it was coupled with a number of back-office improvements, such as a change to using
SignCAD for producing pattern-accurate sign panel detail sheets for large panel signs (previously TxDOT produced pattern-accurate sign details only for D-series small guide signs, for which there is still a TxDOT-specific
MicroStation bolt-on which produces pattern-accurate output; large guide signs were detailed in a separate program which used placeholder fonts instead of the actual FHWA alphabet series). Clearview was rolled out in the middle of this upgrade program, starting around summer 2002.
It was not a clean sweep; I suspect some districts held on to existing button copy signs since planned upgrades to certain highways (I-10 in El Paso, I-820 in Fort Worth) were considered imminent and it was not desired to change signs twice in a short interval. But the Houston, Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, Amarillo, Abilene, Odessa, and Wichita Falls districts all hit hard on reflective sheeting replacements.
AFAIK, button copy was manufactured until the early 1990s. The last new signs with button copy legend installed in Massachusetts (not counting Interstate shields on overhead signs, which were being provided on MassDOT overhead signs until the mid-2000s) were installed on the MassPike extension (Weston to Boston) in 1995. One of the reasons that MassPike switched to "standard" reflective demountable copy for the signs west of Weston installed in the 1995-1997 sign replacement contracts was the change of the Pike's background sheeting spec from Type III encapulated lens (3M) to Type IV prismatic lens (Stimpsonite - now Avery). The prismatic background made the button copy legend totally illegible at night.
New York State made the switch around 1990. Spot replacements were seen Upstate (sometimes on wooden signs) as early as 1980 or so (I remember I-81 having a couple before the new bridge was built at Exits 23-24 in Syracuse) but button copy signs were installed as late as 1990. Many are still up in the Utica area.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 29, 2014, 04:11:09 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on April 29, 2014, 04:06:24 PMThey didn't replace all.existing button-copy signage until 2003.
there still is some around, here and there. quite a few examples in El Paso. I also spotted some on - I think - 820 in Fort Worth in December, and I believe there is some left in McAllen or Pharr or somewhere down there.
I believe California was using button copy until as late as 2001 or 2002, but I don't have any documentation for that. I know they had used retroreflective off and on as early as 1948, and in regular rotation since 1957 for route shields, and 1959 for smaller supplemental signs.
Saw some on the US 287 freeway in Ft. Worth last time I went through, maybe 5 years ago. Aren't there still a few in Houston for US 90? or are they all gone?
Yeah, button copy definitely works better if the ("dark"-colored) background is less reflective than the foreground button reflectors.
Yeah, I just found out that in 1998, only three states still used button copy for freeway signs: Arizona, California, and Ohio. Ohio and California made the switch in 1999 and by 2000 Arizona was the only state that used button copy (I believe they still used a reflective background, however). I don't know when Arizona finally made the switch to entirely non-button copy signs though. I wonder what the very first state to make the switch was.
Quote from: joshI5 on May 01, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Ohio and California made the switch in 1999
If that's true, ODOT had a lot stockpiled. Or maybe in '99 they went ahead and bought all the parts they needed for all the signs that had already been designed but not assembled.
Indeed. New signs with button copy went up in some places in Ohio as late as 2002. I think I recall the far western part of I-70 getting reflective signs in 2001, but they may have been designed/ordered after some that were planned earlier but not installed until 2002.
Quote from: joshI5 on May 01, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
I don't know when Arizona finally made the switch to entirely non-button copy signs though. I wonder what the very first state to make the switch was.
Good question: I think R.I. was using demountable copy in the late 1970s. The same with MASS.
Another question: When did states stop using NON-reflective button copy signs?
Quote from: doofy103 on May 02, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
Another question: When did states stop using NON-reflective button copy signs?
I think a lot of states just plain did not ever use the reflective-background button copy style. CA comes to mind: all their signs had non-reflective background until the late 90s or whenever the switch was.
I believe all Washington signs had non-reflective background. Ohio, Texas, Utah, also come to mind offhand and possibly 20-30 others. I would bet only a handful of states used the reflective stuff. MA, CT are the ones I can name quickly.
as far as I know, VA never used button copy. MS is very rare, as is LA.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2014, 04:10:55 PM
I believe all Washington signs had non-reflective background. Ohio, Texas, Utah, also come to mind offhand and possibly 20-30 others. I would bet only a handful of states used the reflective stuff. MA, CT are the ones I can name quickly.
Ohio certainly did use reflective backgrounds with button copy. I think that started some time in the 80s.
NJ started with non-reflective (very few left at this point), then went reflective (still plenty), then eliminated button copy. They were one of the later states to eliminate - mid 1990s (last ones went out late 90s) - but not sure when they left non-reflective. Probably early to mid 80s.
Quote from: doofy103 on May 02, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
Quote from: joshI5 on May 01, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
I don't know when Arizona finally made the switch to entirely non-button copy signs though. I wonder what the very first state to make the switch was.
Good question: I think R.I. was using demountable copy in the late 1970s. The same with MASS.
Massachusetts started using demountable copy in place of button copy in the late 1960s/early 1970s.
New York DOT's changeover was in the 1980's at least in Region-10 on Long Island. They did a series of sign replacement projects on the state parkways here during that decade. The first project in 1984 was the last button-copy signing done here. Subsequent projects in the late 80's were not button-copy and used a slightly lighter shade of green sheeting. Interestingly, another replacement project done in 2013 went back to a slightly darker green. Some of those 1984 button-copy signs are still with us I'm happy to say.
Someone mentioned New Jersey earlier. When I-80 was built in 1964 the original signs were button-copy with non-reflective green, which looked the same as reflective green sheeting during the day. At night the backgrounds looked black. This surprised me as a teenager, because New York State had been using reflective green sheeting since about 1959 when the Long Island Expwy. was extended from Queens into Nassau County.