Was recently there (for the first time) with my partner (who was a native there before) on a vacation.
Things I noticed:
1) The roads themselves are incredibly noisy (most of the time). The rocks used seem kind of big and not very flat / coarse texture is caused by this. Any idea why it's like this? Is it a money thing? Longevity? Good for braking or something?
2) Concrete barriers on the edges of roads/bridges/ramps, center barrier etc have a dirty look to them. Very gray and a streaky look (from the rain I assume). I asked my partner and he said this is caused by tree pollen which eventually turns mildewy... is this accurate? Is it something else? Has WSDOT ever considered painting these barriers? They'd probably look better / could be formulated in a way that wouldn't allow pollen to stick or mildew to grow?
3) Saw FHWA series C (or D?) series font used here and there on overhead signage (and around SEA). I assume this is being phased out?
EDIT: also. does anyone have a complete map of the new SR-16 I-5 interchange project (and areas that are being constructed around it too)?
Quote from: colinstu on June 21, 2014, 08:49:41 AM
EDIT: also. does anyone have a complete map of the new SR-16 I-5 interchange project (and areas that are being constructed around it too)?
The I-5/SR 16 interchange (called the Nalley Valley Viaduct project) is actually three projects under one umbrella. WSDOT has separate webpages for each of the stages:
- Westbound Nalley Valley - Complete June 2011 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/SR16_WBNalleyValley/default.htm)
- Eastbound Nalley Valley - Opening in 2014 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/SR16_EBNalleyValley/)
- HOV Structure and Connections - Opening in 2020 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/I5_SR16Realignment/)
The original interchange:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2F23E1C0C3-DF2E-4AA1-BADF-40D63B6D4244%2F0%2FNalleyValleyExisting.jpg&hash=c81e787e73586dfa48ed8e9aa1f47ed02de6b629)
Current configuration (2011):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2FB5F5093A-1270-4FDE-93C3-6E3FE4ACB6DD%2F0%2FPostWB.jpg&hash=3dcb0831c45c233a67e64bca914a69ec324f92e8)
Final configuration (2022):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpuu.sh%2F9E2mz%2F3928137392.jpg&hash=c432c57b0bbac0647e9687e06a407e06e75b1f39) (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/30D2AFAF-EB41-4CA1-9363-8F531B08016F/0/UltimateNVTrafficFlow.pdf)
I wish they had a traditional map.
Quote from: colinstu on June 21, 2014, 03:31:21 PM
I wish they had a traditional map.
Closest you'll ever get is [WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
[WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Markdown? You must be a redditor. :spin:
WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf)
Quote from: sammi on June 21, 2014, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
[WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Markdown? You must be a redditor. :spin:
WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf)
Markdown aside (not even sure what that is...lol), what's the point of that diagram? It doesn't seem to do anything well except show the reader where the mileposts are and in which direction each carriageway flows. Sorry, but I could draw a diagram with crayon with greater accuracy.
Quote from: jake on June 25, 2014, 06:40:19 PM
Markdown aside (not even sure what that is...lol), what's the point of that diagram? It doesn't seem to do anything well except show the reader where the mileposts are and in which direction each carriageway flows. Sorry, but I could draw a diagram with crayon with greater accuracy.
The interchange diagrams are a sort of visual version of the State Highway Log (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/roadway/pdf/HwyLog2013Statewide.pdf) (PDF), which shows posted and actual mileages (an essential resource for Wikipedia editors like myself).
Quote from: sammi on June 21, 2014, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
[WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Markdown? You must be a redditor. :spin:
WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf)
You've caught me red-handed.
Quote from: jake on June 25, 2014, 06:40:19 PM
Quote from: sammi on June 21, 2014, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
[WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Markdown? You must be a redditor. :spin:
WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf)
Markdown aside (not even sure what that is...lol), what's the point of that diagram? It doesn't seem to do anything well except show the reader where the mileposts are and in which direction each carriageway flows. Sorry, but I could draw a diagram with crayon with greater accuracy.
These kinds of drawings can be useful for people working in the field (i.e. maintenance crews or contractors) to be able to reference locations without referring to a stationing line (which is often not marked in the field and is usually only traceable using a GPS unit with the stationing line loaded in it).
I'm having trouble understanding your meaning behind that last part. I'd understand if this were a crappy rendering or something like a map drawn on a cocktail napkin. But that link is an engineering drawing done up in CAD...not sure how you can get more accurate than that.
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2014, 09:25:41 PM
Quote from: jake on June 25, 2014, 06:40:19 PM
Quote from: sammi on June 21, 2014, 06:25:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
[WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf).
Markdown? You must be a redditor. :spin:
WSDOT's Interchange Diagrams (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/mapsdata/tools/InterchangeViewer/pdf/SR005/005X132A.pdf)
Markdown aside (not even sure what that is...lol), what's the point of that diagram? It doesn't seem to do anything well except show the reader where the mileposts are and in which direction each carriageway flows. Sorry, but I could draw a diagram with crayon with greater accuracy.
These kinds of drawings can be useful for people working in the field (i.e. maintenance crews or contractors) to be able to reference locations without referring to a stationing line (which is often not marked in the field and is usually only traceable using a GPS unit with the stationing line loaded in it).
I'm having trouble understanding your meaning behind that last part. I'd understand if this were a crappy rendering or something like a map drawn on a cocktail napkin. But that link is an engineering drawing done up in CAD...not sure how you can get more accurate than that.
Typically, when I fail to understand something, I also find it easy to criticise. But understanding it now, I see no reason for the diagram to show proper widths and so on, and thus, I retract my previous statement that I could draw a more accurate diagram with crayon because that isn't the point (it seems).
iPhone
The Series D and C on BGS are some of the few ugly sign cramming WSDOT attempted to do in the past. While rare, they're pretty horrific.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 04:10:15 AM
The Series D and C on BGS are some of the few ugly sign cramming WSDOT attempted to do in the past. While rare, they're pretty horrific.
Like this?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9OVpw7r.jpg&hash=2a2b76f8836e32889a0c724b20a887831113a364)
Ironically, those 56th Street signs are fairly new. The older ones didn't mention University Place (the second line said Tacoma Mall Blvd instead).
Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 11, 2014, 10:13:32 PM
Ironically, those 56th Street signs are fairly new. The older ones didn't mention University Place (the second line said Tacoma Mall Blvd instead).
I actually remember when they put those up, and, being in my font-spotting infancy, thought they were Clearview.
There's a new set of signs (http://goo.gl/fV1ou6) for the
Puyallup Fair Washington State Fair north of the Bridgeport interchange that I always thought was Clearview too. Not surprisingly, it was Series C. Ugh.
The actual construction plans for the SR 16/I-5 Nalley Valley jobs are still available online.
ftp://ftp.wsdot.wa.gov/contracts/7594%20SR16%20WESTBOUND%20NALLEY%20VALLEY%20IC/
ftp://ftp.wsdot.wa.gov/contracts/8189%20I-5SR16EastboundNalleyValleyHOV/
I thank the OP for the explanation of why Jersey barriers and other concrete surfaces look so weathered in western Washington--it is something I have also noticed and, frankly, don't care much for.
thank you for these links! now THIS is what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Bruce on June 21, 2014, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: colinstu on June 21, 2014, 08:49:41 AM
EDIT: also. does anyone have a complete map of the new SR-16 I-5 interchange project (and areas that are being constructed around it too)?
The I-5/SR 16 interchange (called the Nalley Valley Viaduct project) is actually three projects under one umbrella. WSDOT has separate webpages for each of the stages:
- Westbound Nalley Valley - Complete June 2011 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/SR16_WBNalleyValley/default.htm)
- Eastbound Nalley Valley - Opening in 2014 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/SR16_EBNalleyValley/)
- HOV Structure and Connections - Opening in 2020 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/PierceCountyHOV/I5_SR16Realignment/)
The original interchange:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2F23E1C0C3-DF2E-4AA1-BADF-40D63B6D4244%2F0%2FNalleyValleyExisting.jpg&hash=c81e787e73586dfa48ed8e9aa1f47ed02de6b629)
Current configuration (2011):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2FB5F5093A-1270-4FDE-93C3-6E3FE4ACB6DD%2F0%2FPostWB.jpg&hash=3dcb0831c45c233a67e64bca914a69ec324f92e8)
Final configuration (2022):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpuu.sh%2F9E2mz%2F3928137392.jpg&hash=c432c57b0bbac0647e9687e06a407e06e75b1f39) (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/30D2AFAF-EB41-4CA1-9363-8F531B08016F/0/UltimateNVTrafficFlow.pdf)
The original proposed interchange had fully directional ramps to be built between I-5, WA 16, and Sprague Ave. The "Sprague T" cut the costs significantly at the cost of some left turns.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 11, 2014, 10:13:32 PM
Ironically, those 56th Street signs are fairly new. The older ones didn't mention University Place (the second line said Tacoma Mall Blvd instead).
Another new set of signs courtesy of WashDOT (I-705 northbound just short of the Stadium exit (duh)):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNfd95Xd.jpg&hash=f1e2bb9a49f82b2e9dba5fa48f4dcba431f1f702)
Quote from: jake on October 23, 2014, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 11, 2014, 10:13:32 PM
Ironically, those 56th Street signs are fairly new. The older ones didn't mention University Place (the second line said Tacoma Mall Blvd instead).
Another new set of signs courtesy of WashDOT (I-705 northbound just sort of the Stadium exit (duh)):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNfd95Xd.jpg&hash=f1e2bb9a49f82b2e9dba5fa48f4dcba431f1f702)
Technically I-705 ends at the E. 11th St bridge, therefore this would already be part of the Schuster Pkwy unless it has been recently extended to the Schuster Pkwy/Stadium Way interchange where I-705 really should end .....
Quote from: I94RoadRunner on October 24, 2014, 03:34:33 AM
Quote from: jake on October 23, 2014, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 11, 2014, 10:13:32 PM
Ironically, those 56th Street signs are fairly new. The older ones didn't mention University Place (the second line said Tacoma Mall Blvd instead).
Another new set of signs courtesy of WashDOT (I-705 northbound just short of the Stadium exit (duh)):
Technically I-705 ends at the E. 11th St bridge, therefore this would already be part of the Schuster Pkwy unless it has been recently extended to the Schuster Pkwy/Stadium Way interchange where I-705 really should end .....
I've always considered the signal with Stadium the end/beginning of the interstate, but the signing is so insufficient there's hardly any way to tell. Does the state publish any official maps?
Official maps, yes, though I don't know they'd be stained enough to get the answer. What will get us the answer is the State Highway Log, which shows that 705 actually ends 0.06 miles past the 11th St underpass, at the gore. In other words, it does in fact end at the interchange, but not at the traffic light at the end of the ramps.
(From here, it's an issue of semantics whether ramps to the highway count as part of the highway itself.)
Quote from: Kacie Jane on October 24, 2014, 11:27:57 AM
Official maps, yes, though I don't know they'd be stained enough to get the answer. What will get us the answer is the State Highway Log, which shows that 705 actually ends 0.06 miles past the 11th St underpass, at the gore. In other words, it does in fact end at the interchange, but not at the traffic light at the end of the ramps.
(From here, it's an issue of semantics whether ramps to the highway count as part of the highway itself.)
I recall this was the case from old Thomas brothers' maps I owned while I lived in Seattle dating back to the construction of I-705 in the early 1990's if memory serves .....?
Somehow "detailed" autocorrected to "stained" in my previous post. My humblest apologies.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on October 24, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
Somehow "detailed" autocorrected to "stained" in my previous post. My humblest apologies.
Actually, I thought that was intentional, as in the maps were stained by like coffee mugs over time from just laying around at the capitol).
1) The roads themselves are incredibly noisy (most of the time). The rocks used seem kind of big and not very flat / coarse texture is caused by this. Any idea why it's like this? Is it a money thing? Longevity? Good for braking or something?
Why? Studded tires. Money thing? Yes. Longevity? No. Good for breaking? No, especially where the wear creates ruts and water pools during rainy weather. Solution (any or all of the following): ban studded tires, raise taxes, grind the concrete smooth again, replace damaged sections of roadway on a periodic basis.
This is probably as good a place as any to add a recent Washington observation. When I was in Portland, I drove into Clark County, WA to meet another friend for dinner. Not sure if this applies to most of Washington, but at least in Vancouver, WA "Freeway Entrance" signs seemed to be widely used.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on December 04, 2014, 01:16:14 PM
This is probably as good a place as any to add a recent Washington observation. When I was in Portland, I drove into Clark County, WA to meet another friend for dinner. Not sure if this applies to most of Washington, but at least in Vancouver, WA "Freeway Entrance" signs seemed to be widely used.
"Freeway Entrance" signs are standard across Washington. We don't use all caps Series E(M) like California, opting for (I think) all caps Series D, but you'll find them at all entrances, guaranteed. We even have a variation for Super-2 interchanges, "Highway Entrance".
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2014, 01:36:39 PM"Freeway Entrance" signs are standard across Washington. We don't use all caps Series E(M) like California, opting for (I think) all caps Series D, but you'll find them at all entrances, guaranteed. We even have a variation for Super-2 interchanges, "Highway Entrance".
Actually, California uses all-caps Series D for its freeway-entrance sign, at least for the vast majority if not all installations. Older signs tend to have Series D Modified (old Caltrans Series D) while newer ones have plain-vanilla FHWA Series D.
California has a "Toll Crossing Entrance" variant. Facilities that do not meet the AASHTO definition of freeway, such as US 101 near Klamath, nevertheless have freeway-entrance signs because the trigger is whether the road has standing as a freeway under California law, not whether it meets the agreed national design criteria for a freeway.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 04, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2014, 01:36:39 PM"Freeway Entrance" signs are standard across Washington. We don't use all caps Series E(M) like California, opting for (I think) all caps Series D, but you'll find them at all entrances, guaranteed. We even have a variation for Super-2 interchanges, "Highway Entrance".
Actually, California uses all-caps Series D for its freeway-entrance sign, at least for the vast majority if not all installations. Older signs tend to have Series D Modified (old Caltrans Series D) while newer ones have plain-vanilla FHWA Series D.
So this is Series D? I always thought it was E. I'm not much of a type expert.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images008/i-008_fwy_entr_shield_pine_valley_road_01.jpg)
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 04, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
California has a "Toll Crossing Entrance" variant.
I'd love to see that sign. Do you know of any?
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 04, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
Facilities that do not meet the AASHTO definition of freeway, such as US 101 near Klamath, nevertheless have freeway-entrance signs because the trigger is whether the road has standing as a freeway under California law, not whether it meets the agreed national design criteria for a freeway.
I can't find any two-lane expressways, but I'd love to see if California uses "Highway Entrance" or "Freeway Entrance" for the ramps.
EDIT: I retract my previous statement about "Highway Entrance" in Washington for Super-2 roads, Washington seems to use "Freeway Entrance" even with Super-2 interchanges, such as this one (http://goo.gl/E0dc0d) near Shelton, Washington. Though "Highway Entrance" is still used, such as along US 2 near Monroe.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuF98REk.png&hash=6db25d727751d342276d6df8f01f0da388435d8c)
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2014, 02:54:31 PM
I'd love to see that sign. Do you know of any?
Toll Crossing Entrance sign on WB CA 92 heading towards the San Mateo Bridge http://goo.gl/maps/6aRfQ
EB CA 84 heading towards the Dumbarton Bridge http://goo.gl/maps/hzcim and the corresponding sign WB http://goo.gl/maps/GJmZW
One on an entrance ramp to I-680 at the Benicia-Martinez Bridge http://goo.gl/maps/7urBq
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2014, 02:54:31 PMSo this is Series D? I always thought it was E. I'm not much of a type expert.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images008/i-008_fwy_entr_shield_pine_valley_road_01.jpg)
Yup--D Modified (old Caltrans Series D) in this case.
QuoteQuote from: J N Winkler on December 04, 2014, 02:20:22 PMFacilities that do not meet the AASHTO definition of freeway, such as US 101 near Klamath, nevertheless have freeway-entrance signs because the trigger is whether the road has standing as a freeway under California law, not whether it meets the agreed national design criteria for a freeway.
I can't find any two-lane expressways, but I'd love to see if California uses "Highway Entrance" or "Freeway Entrance" for the ramps.
Here's an example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5232238,-124.0336281,3a,75y,278.95h,76.93t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQ1KdnO_d3ILOVBH6__Z3bw!2e0
This freeway has just two lanes at this point, though it widens to four lanes further south, and has one at-grade crossing (where, curiously, freeway-entrance signs are not used):
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3814892,-123.9950214,3a,75y,13.03h,74.42t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sySN94QFwaVY7UUSDgXrkIQ!2e0
And just for additional interest, here is the standard Caltrans signing treatment for the start of a freeway: Begin Freeway and Emergency Parking Only signs mounted on the same post:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3452084,-124.0301018,3a,75y,38.44h,74.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1svEaGfROn0SVTUUDb7C0dLg!2e0
(There actually should be an End Freeway sign directly opposite, especially with a 35-MPH curve with Moskowitz sign coming up. The Radar Enforced plaque on the 55 MPH speed limit sign is actively unhelpful since such plaques are usually interpreted as "Road opens up now" based on their typical usage pattern elsewhere in California.)
In Washington you will also find "Motorized Vehicles Only" signs on or near the "Freeway Entrance" signs. However, they are only in places where bicycles are prohibited on the Freeways, which largely is only in the Seattle/Tacoma Metro.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on December 04, 2014, 01:16:14 PM
This is probably as good a place as any to add a recent Washington observation. When I was in Portland, I drove into Clark County, WA to meet another friend for dinner. Not sure if this applies to most of Washington, but at least in Vancouver, WA "Freeway Entrance" signs seemed to be widely used.
They're heavily used in the Seattle metro area too. Not sure why, since the signs are mostly redundant.
Are Freeway Entrance signs rare? They're not by every ramp in Milwaukee but I'd say quite a number of them. Especially in areas where entrance ramps are mixed into a grid of normal surface streets and it's not too obvious it's a freeway entrance.
Quote from: colinstu on December 05, 2014, 01:49:28 AM
Are Freeway Entrance signs rare? They're not by every ramp in Milwaukee but I'd say quite a number of them. Especially in areas where entrance ramps are mixed into a grid of normal surface streets and it's not too obvious it's a freeway entrance.
I believe the practice varies state-to-state. California has them posted at every freeway on-ramp. The assembly, shown in the photo jakeroot posted, has a "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" sign, the route shield, cardinal direction and an arrow pointing to the ramp.
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 05, 2014, 03:07:45 AMI believe the practice varies state-to-state. California has them posted at every freeway on-ramp. The assembly, shown in the photo jakeroot posted, has a "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" sign, the route shield, cardinal direction and an arrow pointing to the ramp.
In California every on-ramp receives the Freeway Entrance signing treatment because that, as well as the arrows with two-sided color-coded retroreflective markers and the Do Not Enter/Wrong Way signing package Caltrans uses at off-ramps, is part of the comprehensive solution for wrong-way movements that evolved from a series of studies Caltrans carried out in the early 1960's.
Wrong-way driving events can occur even with simple diamond layouts if a driver is drunk or otherwise incapacitated. On top of this, California has more problems than other states with simpler interchange layouts because so much of its freeway network was developed before principles of driver expectancy with regard to navigation were clearly articulated. There are many places on older freeways where the point of access for a return trip is quite far removed from the point of exit for an outward trip. Moreover, because it was one of the first states to see heavy freeway traffic, a higher proportion of service interchanges on California freeways are of the partial cloverleaf type, with double-loading of on and off ramps at ramp terminals, where even an alert driver can "aim wrong" under conditions of low visibility unless specially prevented from doing so. The signing packages at freeway ramp terminals were among the first in California to be subject to a whole-face retroreflectivity requirement, and as soon as wide-angle retroreflective sheetings became available, they were required for these signs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 05, 2014, 03:07:45 AMI believe the practice varies state-to-state. California has them posted at every freeway on-ramp. The assembly, shown in the photo jakeroot posted, has a "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" sign, the route shield, cardinal direction and an arrow pointing to the ramp.
In California every on-ramp receives the Freeway Entrance signing treatment because that, as well as the arrows with two-sided color-coded retroreflective markers and the Do Not Enter/Wrong Way signing package Caltrans uses at off-ramps, is part of the comprehensive solution for wrong-way movements that evolved from a series of studies Caltrans carried out in the early 1960's.
Wrong-way driving events can occur even with simple diamond layouts if a driver is drunk or otherwise incapacitated. On top of this, California has more problems than other states with simpler interchange layouts because so much of its freeway network was developed before principles of driver expectancy with regard to navigation were clearly articulated. There are many places on older freeways where the point of access for a return trip is quite far removed from the point of exit for an outward trip. Moreover, because it was one of the first states to see heavy freeway traffic, a higher proportion of service interchanges on California freeways are of the partial cloverleaf type, with double-loading of on and off ramps at ramp terminals, where even an alert driver can "aim wrong" under conditions of low visibility unless specially prevented from doing so. The signing packages at freeway ramp terminals were among the first in California to be subject to a whole-face retroreflectivity requirement, and as soon as wide-angle retroreflective sheetings became available, they were required for these signs.
And everything that you said above really makes the argument as to why every state should incorporate a Freeway Entrance sign at freeway entrances. It dramatically helps people find the ramps and avoid wrong-way movements.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
In California every on-ramp receives the Freeway Entrance signing treatment because that, as well as the arrows with two-sided color-coded retroreflective markers and the Do Not Enter/Wrong Way signing package Caltrans uses at off-ramps, is part of the comprehensive solution for wrong-way movements that evolved from a series of studies Caltrans carried out in the early 1960's.
That's a fascinating explanation as to why California posts Freeway Entrance assemblies at all on-ramps however, I think a couple of points you made in the second paragraph would be better explained with a diagram so I took the time to create some...
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
There are many places on older freeways where the point of access for a return trip is quite far removed from the point of exit for an outward trip.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FExit-Entrance.jpg&hash=8fca2e440a0e3336c230691f2e520192bd66886d)
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
a higher proportion of service interchanges on California freeways are of the partial cloverleaf type, with double-loading of on and off ramps at ramp terminals, where even an alert driver can "aim wrong" under conditions of low visibility unless specially prevented from doing so.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FPartialCloverleaf.jpg&hash=e0bdec41e1d00a0996fa3bb372a9f3063555511a)
How did I do?
Myosh--these are both good illustrations. The bottom part of the first drawing is a classic Caltrans scissors ramp arrangement.
In regard to the displacement of entry and exit points, this drawing was used in 1962 to illustrate one facet of the problem:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F0%2F07%2FAuto-safety-foundation-1962-illustration-of-signing-problem.jpg&hash=0b2000a5497006d9643d5c382c31db7a0df52303)
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2014, 03:22:53 PM
Myosh--these are both good illustrations. The bottom part of the first drawing is a classic Caltrans scissors ramp arrangement.
In regard to the displacement of entry and exit points, this drawing was used in 1962 to illustrate one facet of the problem:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F0%2F07%2FAuto-safety-foundation-1962-illustration-of-signing-problem.jpg&hash=0b2000a5497006d9643d5c382c31db7a0df52303)
Hey, there's an interchange just like that on CA-92 in San Mateo...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2F92-Exit14a-Map.png&hash=77f5af80b69a3bc8a5b74169d7e9e042ae0532cc)
That type of interchange is also common in the northeast on older freeways/expressways. You either plow down the neighborhood, or build ramps around it.
Quote from: myosh_tino on December 05, 2014, 03:07:45 AM
Quote from: colinstu on December 05, 2014, 01:49:28 AM
Are Freeway Entrance signs rare? They're not by every ramp in Milwaukee but I'd say quite a number of them. Especially in areas where entrance ramps are mixed into a grid of normal surface streets and it's not too obvious it's a freeway entrance.
I believe the practice varies state-to-state. California has them posted at every freeway on-ramp. The assembly, shown in the photo jakeroot posted, has a "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" sign, the route shield, cardinal direction and an arrow pointing to the ramp.
Oregon doesn't use "Freeway Entrance" signs by and large. I know that there are three places where they
are used:
- Onramp to I-84 Eastbound at Exit 3, Portland
- Onramp to I-5 Northbound at Exit 66, Hugo
- (escapes me at the moment)
With regard to other western states, Washington, California, and Nevada all use "Freeway Entrance" signs on many if not all of their freeway entrances. Washington mounts only the "Freeway Entrance" sign, while California and Nevada use the sign + direction + shield + arrow combination. Idaho only mounts "Freeway Entrance" signs in a couple places that I know of; I-90 has them along its entire length in the Washington style, and I-86 Exit 61 and I-15 Exit 71 in Pocatello have them in the California style. Utah very rarely has them, and Arizona has the California style arrangement minus the "Freeway Entrance" signs in Yuma.
Quote from: JasonOfORoads on December 14, 2014, 12:31:42 AM
With regard to other western states, Washington, California, and Nevada all use "Freeway Entrance" signs on many if not all of their freeway entrances. Washington mounts only the "Freeway Entrance" sign, while California and Nevada use the sign + direction + shield + arrow combination.
Nevada uses freeway entrance signing, as described, on all freeway facilities in the state with one exception: Summerlin Parkway in Las Vegas does not use any freeway entrance signage whatsoever. This is probably partly due to Summerlin Parkway being a city facility which has no highway number.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mammoth+Lakes,+CA/@37.6415571,-118.9155394,3a,49y,292.36h,94.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEhlzxeg-kj9Akv0iY96IxA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x80960c5f79b3179f:0xf114d9d70fee8d6d
Here's a highway on-ramp without a FREEWAY ENTRANCE or HIGHWAY ENTRANCE in California. US-395 and CA-203 near Mammoth Lakes.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on December 16, 2014, 09:00:11 PMhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/Mammoth+Lakes,+CA/@37.6415571,-118.9155394,3a,49y,292.36h,94.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEhlzxeg-kj9Akv0iY96IxA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x80960c5f79b3179f:0xf114d9d70fee8d6d
Here's a highway on-ramp without a FREEWAY ENTRANCE or HIGHWAY ENTRANCE in California. US-395 and CA-203 near Mammoth Lakes.
Nice find. I actually passed through this interchange (leaving and rejoining southbound US 395) last September, but didn't register that there weren't Freeway Entrance signs. I suspect this is a rare example of a grade separation that isn't part of a declared freeway under California law.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 16, 2014, 09:31:49 PM
I suspect this is a rare example of a grade separation that isn't part of a declared freeway under California law.
Basing these off of memory. I lived in Northern California, but I'm sure there's similar examples in Southern California.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2106631,-121.0710061,3a,49.8y,265.76h,94.55t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQqOCo_uCLyVV1a91J7mwBg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5563308,-122.23837,3a,75y,98.13h,82.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sf0KD5bI2fufWdbsxb-2QPg!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9882458,-121.3841006,3a,75y,26.76h,84.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sG3q_PaGpk_qOoWZ5mTkheA!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9610504,-121.551577,3a,53y,187.23h,98.26t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAj9EZDjOvNdlWKlSVvOhTA!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8071335,-122.47394,3a,75y,294.67h,90.97t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sorP_2hMidy8EUTUuC4vLuQ!2e0
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8337594,-122.4835973,3a,80y,139.86h,82.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skw3frVfs5uJOrqFFRrxLKw!2e0
(Now, this one has a 'TOLL CROSSING ENTRANCE' sign on the east side and on the west side, it just has a stand-alone 'TOLL' sign over the shields. If you go forward in SV, you can see the newer sign.)
Here's one without anything on the on-ramp.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.1909249,-121.9928069,3a,75y,356.5h,84.93t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEYw18DZxS7rg-QohUZ7YuQ!2e0
All of the stubs on CA-17 between Los Gatos and Scott's Valley are like that.
Honestly, it seems like the example with Klamath is rare. California generally doesn't put a 'FREEWAY ENTRANCE' sign unless it's an actual freeway.
Quote from: Bruce on December 04, 2014, 06:52:23 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on December 04, 2014, 01:16:14 PM
This is probably as good a place as any to add a recent Washington observation. When I was in Portland, I drove into Clark County, WA to meet another friend for dinner. Not sure if this applies to most of Washington, but at least in Vancouver, WA "Freeway Entrance" signs seemed to be widely used.
They're heavily used in the Seattle metro area too. Not sure why, since the signs are mostly redundant.
In a couple of rare cases, there are freeway entrance signs when you are already on a freeway to begin with. Seems redundant to me .....? Such is the case at WA 512 heading westbound to I-5 and WA 518 westbound at WA 509