Why exactly are there double yellow lines on the highway? It would seem that one yellow line would be enough. I mean in long passing zones there aren't double dashed lines. It seems like a lot of money spent on paint would be saved if there was just one line rather than two. By the way, on Google Street View, I've seen many places (such as Latin America) that just have 1 line in the center. I also saw this done in Spain in certain places.
I have rarely seen 1 yellow line in the United States. Still, it's almost always 2.
Quote from: 1 on June 21, 2014, 07:59:19 PM
I have rarely seen 1 yellow line in the United States. Still, it's almost always 2.
I have never seen just 1 yellow line on a road in the United States. Federal Route 16 in Mexico is one route that has just 1 yellow line when both sides are prohibited from passing.
http://goo.gl/maps/hj1Ik
A single yellow center line was specifically forbidden with the 2009 edition of the MUTCD.
The best answer as to single versus double center lines in the US is probably that the system just evolved that way. Though IMHO, a double center line has a better chance of being somewhat visible if the pavement markings are in extremely bad shape.
For those who probably haven't seen it before, a history of striping in the US can be found in this document. (https://ceprofs.civil.tamu.edu/ghawkins/MUTCD-History_files/MarkingColorEvolution.pdf)
The wording of the 1961 and older MUTCDs seems to suggest a paradigm where passing was the norm and a no passing zone was a special condition. Early MUTCDs suggested yellow to draw attention to no passing zones and for centerlines on multi-lane roads, but these weren't rigid requirements, and it seems that states used a confusing array of single and double, broken and solid lines in white, yellow, and sometime bituminous black.
The 1971 MUTCD mandated the centerline standards we still use today, and it would appear that most states and municipalities fell into line within a few years.
Coming from the confusion and disarray of previous decades, I think that mandating the double solid yellow was necessary to very clearly standardize the strictest possible combination (yellow and double and solid), leaving no doubt as to where passing was not allowed.
I've seen single yellow lines in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts.
iPhone
Pennsylvania uses single lines sporadically on back roads, otherwise I only see single ones in shopping centers where they make up their own standards for pavement markings
I recall seeing the one line roads in PA traveling on I-81. The rural roads under the bridges had one yellow stripe. That was quite a few years ago tho.
iPhone
Reno used to use a lot of single yellow lines. These were on residential and low-volume streets that typically don't have any markings. The yellow line was used in the 50-100 feet leading up to stop and yield lines. Since the 2009 MUTCD came out, these have started being properly marked as double yellows.
If you only had one line, how do you allow passing for the NB direction (going downhill) and disallow it for the SB direction (going uphill, no sight lines)?
Although I recall that there were single WHITE lines on some city streets when I was growing up.
Quote from: GaryV on June 22, 2014, 09:08:51 AM
If you only had one line, how do you allow passing for the NB direction (going downhill) and disallow it for the SB direction (going uphill, no sight lines)?
Although I recall that there were single WHITE lines on some city streets when I was growing up.
You do it the same way it is now. A solid line on one side and a dashed on the other. The only difference is when no passing is allowed for either side there is just one solid yellow instead of 2.
On the point of cost of painting two yellow lines versus one, paint is (relatively) cheap compared to the rest of the road maintenance cost. I believe the paint trucks have the ability to do both lines at the same time so the extra labor/equipment cost is zero.
Quote from: GaryV on June 22, 2014, 09:08:51 AM
Although I recall that there were single WHITE lines on some city streets when I was growing up.
That means both sides of the white line go in the same direction.
When I was growing up in Hawaii, they were largely single yellow lines. Some towns in Washington still have single yellow lines. The logical reason I found was that each line tells you what each lane can do, and if I had my druthers, dashed lines would be double dashes, so that the logical convention was obvious.
Quote from: Arkansastravelguy on June 21, 2014, 11:39:35 PM
I've seen single yellow lines in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts.
Quote from: Alex4897 on June 22, 2014, 12:04:04 AM
Pennsylvania uses single lines sporadically on back roads, otherwise I only see single ones in shopping centers where they make up their own standards for pavement markings
This must be either extremely rare or a practice which has all but disappeared in recent years, because in 25 years of living in PA (and about a decade driving all throughout the state), I don't recall ever seeing a single line, even on the most remote rural roads. (Except, as was mentioned, occasionally in suburban housing developments and shopping centers where the private developer was likely responsible for construction.)
Quote from: 1 on June 22, 2014, 12:27:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on June 22, 2014, 09:08:51 AM
Although I recall that there were single WHITE lines on some city streets when I was growing up.
That means both sides of the white line go in the same direction.
Not necessarily, depending on where and when the single white lines were used. Up until the '60s (and perhaps slightly beyond), there was inconsistency from state-to-state on whether white or yellow was used to separate different directions. Some states didn't use yellow at all until it was mandated.
Quote from: TEG24601 on June 22, 2014, 03:27:30 PM
... if I had my druthers, dashed lines would be double dashes, so that the logical convention was obvious.
I've had that thought, too, but double dashes have their own purpose: marking reversible lanes on multi-lane two-way streets.
Quote from: MUTCD 2009(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F1j1YRze&hash=9cd0c50003db3df0f15806ab934aba7ebccb255c)
Single yellow lines are fairly common on both low volume rural roads, and in urban settings in Ontario:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FON%2Fsecondary%2Fhwy_500-549_images%2F522_cl_26-5_east.jpg&hash=127f11a359f598d51754044fd3044f083a409416)
There's a few county roads near me with single yellow lines. The majority of them appear to be 1 line, for some reason, faded away when the other didn't. One would think it would be easy enough to repaint the stripping, but they've remained single yellow for years.
Short-term single fat yellow lines showed up in the IN 25 construction project at temporary crossovers. One such line is still in place but the crossover is closed off.
Peabody, Mass was infamous for single yellow center lines into the early 2000s on city-maintained streets. (Thus at transitions from city to state maintenance the line would change from single to double or vice versa.) They finally fell in line relatively recently.
Around New Jersey it seems to be the norm for narrow bridges to have a single yellow line.
The double line standard does serve another purpose, adds distance between opposing traffic since it is 3 stripes wide instead of one, giving you a few more inches if your vehicle goes over the line.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.ning.com%2Ffiles%2F7r7-fVudwtrrPpRyuIBj86fvnASoXiY0Lk6f54KIdC2mS%2Aiay-w%2ASQApBXAXJFMGEyo6ax9HVGdkTk74Nfql9mhEe3zmAfHK%2Fphoto.JPG%3Fwidth%3D737%26amp%3Bheight%3D550&hash=83445707d8abc1529f25672ee66ea39bae101d0c)
Interestingly, one just appeared in Corinth, Texas on a state road. It's on the Corinth Pkwy overpass over I-35E. A truck hit the bridge from below, and the contractor doing the I-35E project placed a low-profile barrier on one side of the overpass, which narrowed the lanes, so they used a single yellow line in the middle due to limited space.
Around here, a double yellow line with a turning lane for the other direction on the other side, and a center turn lane ahead, means "When a driver stops here to make a left turn, instead of crossing this yellow line into the turning lane, honk and make road-rage gestures at him until he moves." :angry:
Both single and double are common in Canada. I've always wondered what the difference is.
In many rural Connecticut towns single yellow lines are common on the backroads. I also have wondered the difference.
Quote from: briantroutman on June 22, 2014, 03:49:05 PM
Quote from: Alex4897 on June 22, 2014, 12:04:04 AM
Pennsylvania uses single lines sporadically on back roads, otherwise I only see single ones in shopping centers where they make up their own standards for pavement markings
This must be either extremely rare or a practice which has all but disappeared in recent years, because in 25 years of living in PA (and about a decade driving all throughout the state), I don't recall ever seeing a single line, even on the most remote rural roads. (Except, as was mentioned, occasionally in suburban housing developments and shopping centers where the private developer was likely responsible for construction.)
Single-line use on certain municipalities' roads is fairly common in the Pittsburgh area. While I've never seen them on state roads, and Allegheny County roads use double-yellow, and the City of Pittsburgh is either "double-or-nothing", Ross Township uses (or used to, it's possible they stopped) a lot of them. I've seen them in Bellevue before.... In fact, there are SO MANY municipalities here, I couldn't even begin to list which ones do or don't.
And it's possible that any or all of them might not anymore....
Venice, Florida has several of them.
I know that they exist all over Canada on rural roads, including many lesser provincial roads, but I think they are strictly a municipal feature in Québec, with provincial roads there using double yellows.
Quote from: Arkansastravelguy on June 21, 2014, 11:39:35 PM
I've seen single yellow lines in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts.
Single yellow center lines are still fairly common in Massachusetts on streets and roads that are under local jurisdiction. It's an excellent example of the "penny wise, pound foolish" attitude of local government, who somehow believe that placing a single line is much less expensive than placing a double line.
Quote from: Jake2000 on June 22, 2014, 08:59:04 PM
In many rural Connecticut towns single yellow lines are common on the backroads. I also have wondered the difference.
The difference is the town spends half as much money on paint. There is no difference in legal meaning.
Another reason for the practice might be that single yellow line roads tend to be fairly narrow, so using only one yellow line also makes it that much more realistically possible to stay on your side of it.
Compare this double-yellow road (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.160104,-73.575154,3a,75y,175.38h,62.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sS5EE0Lugt2Tn9yoUg-fsLA!2e0), where the way you drive it is you drive down the middle and then slow down and scooch over to the right when there's an oncoming car, to this single-yellow road (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.375308,-73.25833,3a,75y,27.81h,68.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sz2P1NxiqPmyX3pn81isHuw!2e0), where you stay on your side.
Quote from: vdeane on June 22, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
Both single and double are common in Canada. I've always wondered what the difference is.
In my experience living in Vancouver, single yellow allows passing with caution. There are very few examples of dashed yellow. With that said, highways (especially rural) use double yellow for emphasis, and as such, dashed yellow is common in those areas.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 23, 2014, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: Jake2000 on June 22, 2014, 08:59:04 PM
In many rural Connecticut towns single yellow lines are common on the backroads. I also have wondered the difference.
The difference is the town spends half as much money on paint. There is no difference in legal meaning.
The material cost difference is half, but labor is the same (and labor is where a good chunk of the total cost comes from anyway).
There is a difference in legal meaning, since a single solid line has no legal meaning (at least if you go by the MUTCD).
In Massachusetts at least, no passing rules cannot be enforced by police if the roadway is striped with only a single solid yellow center line.
While driving through Sequoyah Co Oklahoma today I saw several county roads off OK101 with single yellow lines
iPhone
Quote from: roadman on June 26, 2014, 11:44:32 AM
In Massachusetts at least, no passing rules cannot be enforced by police if the roadway is striped with only a single solid yellow center line.
Not sure what regulations (if any) Mass imposes on single yellow lines, but in British Columbia, you are legally allowed to overtake, but with greater caution then with dotted.
It's historical. In the past, a dashed center line was always present and the color depended on the state (often white). A yellow line on your side of the center line denoted no passing. What is now a double yellow was then double yellow solid lines with a dashed white line in between. They eventually ended up removing the dashed line and we still have the double yellow.
There are some pictures of the Philippines posted on here that show this. They apparently still do it like this sometimes there. And if you go check out street view pictures of New Zealand, they use a variant of this as well.
I've seen it where a single yellow line is used for a forbidden shoulder (the shoulder is too small for someone to pull over and use)
I'm personally in favor of a double yellow line. Although, around here, people pass whenever they want to anyways.
Quote from: vdeane on June 22, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
Both single and double are common in Canada. I've always wondered what the difference is.
I was in Victoria, BC, on Saturday. Went from the cruise ship port to downtown. Don't recall seeing anything but single yellow lines.
Quote from: jbnv on July 07, 2014, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 22, 2014, 07:40:38 PM
Both single and double are common in Canada. I've always wondered what the difference is.
I was in Victoria, BC, on Saturday. Went from the cruise ship port to downtown. Don't recall seeing anything but single yellow lines.
They're mostly seen on rural highways and large thoroughfares without hard medians...otherwise, single-yellow.
What's the deal with the single broken yellow lines used on low-volume residential streets? You see them all over Southern California. They're obviously indicating direction of travel, and they can't be indicating that passing is permitted.
Quote from: mcmc on July 07, 2014, 03:50:56 PM
What's the deal with the single broken yellow lines used on low-volume residential streets? You see them all over Southern California. They're obviously indicating direction of travel, and they can't be indicating that passing is permitted.
Why can't they indicate passing as being permitted?
Quote from: MUTCD Section 3A.06 Functions, Widths, and Patterns of Longitudinal Pavement Markings
Standard:
01 The general functions of longitudinal lines shall be:
A.A double line indicates maximum or special restrictions,
B.A solid line discourages or prohibits crossing (depending on the specific application),
C.A broken line indicates a permissive condition, and
D.A dotted line provides guidance or warning of a downstream change in lane function.
Madison, WI has a few roads marked only with a single broken yellow as well, especially in office parks like the one I work in.
Quote from: DaBigE on July 07, 2014, 05:28:13 PM
Quote from: mcmc on July 07, 2014, 03:50:56 PM
What's the deal with the single broken yellow lines used on low-volume residential streets? You see them all over Southern California. They're obviously indicating direction of travel, and they can't be indicating that passing is permitted.
Why can't they indicate passing as being permitted?
SoCal has major issues with people avoiding freeways by using residential streets as a bypass. Given this, some residential streets can get quite busy during rush hour and thus dividing lines (regardless of what they indicate) are a pretty helpful traffic control tool. Most cities don't have this issue (but that's not to say they can't).
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2014, 07:45:25 AM
It's historical. In the past, a dashed center line was always present and the color depended on the state (often white). A yellow line on your side of the center line denoted no passing. What is now a double yellow was then two double yellow solid lines with a dashed white line in between. They eventually ended up removing the dashed line and we still have the double yellow.
Not quite. Prior to the 1961 MUTCD, a single center line was normally used on undivided roads. Whether the line was dashed or solid was up to the agency that maintained the road, but a single solid line was often used at locations (like hills and curves) where passing was discouraged (at locations where they wanted to prohibit passing, the restriction was communicated with signs). BTW, all center line markings were typically white before issuance of the 1961 MUTCD.
In the US, the dashed white center line with a solid yellow line on each side configuration was common in several western states for some time but was not typically used on the East Coast. This configuration, which can be seen in several period movies such as the original (1972)
Vanishing Point was actually an unintentional consequence, and very literal interpretation, of the no passing zone illustrations in the 1961 MUTCD. The MUTCD illustrations were replaced with the current double yellow center line ones starting with the 1971 edition. However, many states had adopted the present standard by the mid to late 1960s.
Source - 1988 discussion with long-time (and long since retired) MassDPW sign and pavement marking engineer
Quote from: JakeFromNewEngland on June 22, 2014, 08:59:04 PM
In many rural Connecticut towns single yellow lines are common on the backroads. I also have wondered the difference.
Growing up, I remember Bridgeport had several single lined streets. Park Avenue and Madison Avenue stand out to me as having had single lines through the 70s and 80s. It just stood out to me as being unusual, but I never knew if there was any good reason behind not having the double lines instead.
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2014, 07:45:25 AM
It's historical. In the past, a dashed center line was always present and the color depended on the state (often white). A yellow line on your side of the center line denoted no passing. What is now a double yellow was then double yellow solid lines with a dashed white line in between. They eventually ended up removing the dashed line and we still have the double yellow.
There are some pictures of the Philippines posted on here that show this. They apparently still do it like this sometimes there. And if you go check out street view pictures of New Zealand, they use a variant of this as well.
I remember back in the 1970s there was a segment of North Carolina Route 12 on Hatteras Island south of the lighthouse that had a double yellow line with a dashed yellow line in between. I don't have any pictures, of course (among other things, I was a little kid). I assume they were just lazy when painting the solid lines.
During the short time I lived in Columbus, Bexley, OH had them everywhere. Funny, because one would think that a city full of millionaires would have proper road markings.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Same story along 99 (http://goo.gl/vbkD1M) south of Federal Way. Solid line for just a little while as the speed limit ups to 50 w/o a center lane.
That GSMV link above shows the solid 18-inch line.
Quote from: DaBigE on July 07, 2014, 05:28:13 PM
Quote from: mcmc on July 07, 2014, 03:50:56 PM
What's the deal with the single broken yellow lines used on low-volume residential streets? You see them all over Southern California. They're obviously indicating direction of travel, and they can't be indicating that passing is permitted.
Why can't they indicate passing as being permitted?
They actually indicate both items: direction of travel and that passing is permitted. Usually, the lowest volume streets have no yellow line at all. Moderately busy streets would have the dashed yellow.
I found the dashed yellow to be very helpful way of dividing the traffic flows, particularly if a street was just wide enough for two passing cars. The markings told you to stay on your side of the line.
The most narrow streets, like a lot of the streets in the older parts of L.A., did not have a dashed yellow if the street were not wide enough that 2 directions could drive through comfortably at speed limit - even if moderately busy. There are many parts of town where if two cars were approaching the same block in opposite directions, one guy had to pull into a parking spot to let the other pass.
Quote from: roadman on July 07, 2014, 07:33:41 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2014, 07:45:25 AM
It's historical. In the past, a dashed center line was always present and the color depended on the state (often white). A yellow line on your side of the center line denoted no passing. What is now a double yellow was then two double yellow solid lines with a dashed white line in between. They eventually ended up removing the dashed line and we still have the double yellow.
Not quite. Prior to the 1961 MUTCD, a single center line was normally used on undivided roads. Whether the line was dashed or solid was up to the agency that maintained the road, but a single solid line was often used at locations (like hills and curves) where passing was discouraged (at locations where they wanted to prohibit passing, the restriction was communicated with signs). BTW, all center line markings were typically white before issuance of the 1961 MUTCD.
In the US, the dashed white center line with a solid yellow line on each side configuration was common in several western states for some time but was not typically used on the East Coast. This configuration, which can be seen in several period movies such as the original (1972) Vanishing Point was actually an unintentional consequence, and very literal interpretation, of the no passing zone illustrations in the 1961 MUTCD. The MUTCD illustrations were replaced with the current double yellow center line ones starting with the 1971 edition. However, many states had adopted the present standard by the mid to late 1960s.
Source - 1988 discussion with long-time (and long since retired) MassDPW sign and pavement marking engineer
Page 7 of this chart has a breakdown of state striping colors in 1949.
https://ceprofs.civil.tamu.edu/ghawkins/MUTCD-History_files/MarkingColorEvolution.pdf
It lists the center line color and style and passing "barrier" line color and style by state. Texas was the most interesting IMO. They used stone chips embedded in the asphalt for the center line and used a yellow dashed line to indicate no passing.
Interesting find realjd - thanks for sharing that.
Quote from: JakeFromNewEngland on June 22, 2014, 08:59:04 PM
In many rural Connecticut towns single yellow lines are common on the backroads. I also have wondered the difference.
I'll second that, growing up in CT, over 20 years the rural road I lived on started out with no line, then got a single yellow line for a while, then got upgraded to a double yellow line, was repaved and downgraded to a single yellow line again to which I believe it is still today.
If I recall, when it had the double yellow line the road seemed too narrow. I think the reason why they use the single line is to save lane space.
Quote from: jake on July 10, 2014, 06:47:10 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Same story along 99 (http://goo.gl/vbkD1M) south of Federal Way. Solid line for just a little while as the speed limit ups to 50 w/o a center lane.
That GSMV link above shows the solid 18-inch line.
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: jake on July 10, 2014, 06:47:10 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Same story along 99 (http://goo.gl/vbkD1M) south of Federal Way. Solid line for just a little while as the speed limit ups to 50 w/o a center lane.
That GSMV link above shows the solid 18-inch line.
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Quote from: cl94 on July 28, 2014, 08:47:35 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Double-double yellow lines with hatching in between is better known as a painted median. Since it's a median, you should not cross over or on that area at any time. Even without the two sets of double yellow lines, the cross-hatching alone indicates an area not to be driven on.
Quote from: roadfro on July 30, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 28, 2014, 08:47:35 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Double-double yellow lines with hatching in between is better known as a painted median. Since it's a median, you should not cross over or on that area at any time. Even without the two sets of double yellow lines, the cross-hatching alone indicates an area not to be driven on.
In California, the cross-hatching isn't necessary for a painted median. A set of double-double yellow lines is all that is needed.
Quote from: roadfro on July 30, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 28, 2014, 08:47:35 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Double-double yellow lines with hatching in between is better known as a painted median. Since it's a median, you should not cross over or on that area at any time. Even without the two sets of double yellow lines, the cross-hatching alone indicates an area not to be driven on.
I know what it means. I also know how it's treated in New York. It's okay to cross it. I know of a few municipalities that paint lines instead of properly striping a center turn lane in this state and the signage instructs one to treat them as such. The county-maintained section of NY 254 is a pretty good example of this. Until VERY recently, Warren County standard was to cross-hatch center turn lanes. Such a section on CR 7 was recently restriped in the proper fashion, but that on NY 254 remains. Very few of the breaks in the paint actually have room for anything other than a compact car to make a U-turn without going off the road and the road network doesn't make one easy, especially because trucks are banned from all but 5 intersecting roads between US 9 and NY 32.
New York standard for a 4 lane road used to be two sets of double yellows separated by 4' of white fill. U-turns are legal out here, but I've never seen a cop ticket someone for crossing a flush median to make a left turn. US 9 in Saratoga County formerly had such a setup. The highway was too narrow for a U-turn at any intersection. Then again, you rarely see them in this state anymore, but common practice is to treat it as a turn lane. I can't find anything in State Highway Law that states otherwise and they certainly didn't mention it in the driver's manual or driver's ed. If New York doesn't want you to turn, they put up a sign or raise the median. If going across 2 double yellows is illegal, they certainly don't enforce it anywhere I've been in this state.
Quote from: roadfro on July 30, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 28, 2014, 08:47:35 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Double-double yellow lines with hatching in between is better known as a painted median. Since it's a median, you should not cross over or on that area at any time. Even without the two sets of double yellow lines, the cross-hatching alone indicates an area not to be driven on.
I'm pretty sure it's legal to cross the double double yellows for the handful of businesses and residences along US-97 between Bend and Redmond: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.195481,-121.232819,3a,75y,27.4h,74.98t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sq5ELbu4UHwEc9nWhTf4pvw!2e0?hl=en
If it's not de jure legal, it certainly is de facto (as in, nobody thinks it's illegal and it's not enforced).
EDIT: But at the same time, you have stuff like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.198737,-121.230624,3a,75y,154.13h,61.52t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sS3uScfcbSU3UmR-xHcLMww!2e0?hl=en This was installed on private property and was clearly not put up by ODOT, Deschutes County, or the city of Redmond, but maybe ODOT forced them too? Who knows. There's also a Do Not Enter Sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.198548,-121.230434,3a,51.1y,324.63h,78.97t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHcryxXWymqWzjQGVzk_JUg!2e0?hl=en) (also not made by ODOT, the county or the city) for potential northbound left turners...
In my opinion, this whole stretch of highway needs a median, frontage roads for business access, a grade separated intersection at 61st St. (which could restore access to the now blocked off northern section of Deschutes Market Rd.) and a 70+ MPH speed limit, but that's never gonna happen...
I'm sure the painted median law is rarely enforced. Only makes sense to strictly enforce it in an area that has a case history of accidents. Undertaking (passing someone on the right lane) in low-to-moderate traffic is technically illegal, but I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed for that.
A lot of roads up on Monte Sano Mountain that still have single yellow lines.
Everywhere else in Huntsville uses in double yellow lines, but I remember some faint single yellow lines in a neighborhood behind my church.
Quote from: doorknob60 on August 07, 2014, 03:18:18 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 30, 2014, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 28, 2014, 08:47:35 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Not everywhere. New York and a few other places use a quadruple yellow on surface roads when the median is too narrow for a center turn lane but too wide for a plain double yellow. They're being phased out as highways are rebuilt and widened to include a center turn lane. Here, at least, a quadruple yellow is equivalent to two sets of double yellows separated by cross-hatching. Not a turn lane, but legal to cross.
Double-double yellow lines with hatching in between is better known as a painted median. Since it's a median, you should not cross over or on that area at any time. Even without the two sets of double yellow lines, the cross-hatching alone indicates an area not to be driven on.
I'm pretty sure it's legal to cross the double double yellows for the handful of businesses and residences along US-97 between Bend and Redmond: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.195481,-121.232819,3a,75y,27.4h,74.98t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sq5ELbu4UHwEc9nWhTf4pvw!2e0?hl=en
If it's not de jure legal, it certainly is de facto (as in, nobody thinks it's illegal and it's not enforced).
Such a law would be a state-specific law. NJ doesn't have such a law. It's quite common to cross a hatched type line to get to a driveway/street on the opposing side of the road.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 07, 2014, 04:55:40 AM
I'm sure the painted median law is rarely enforced. Only makes sense to strictly enforce it in an area that has a case history of accidents. Undertaking (passing someone on the right lane) in low-to-moderate traffic is technically illegal, but I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed for that.
Also state specific. NJ has a law that clearly allows passing in any travel lane. But...passing a left turning vehicle on the shoulder is different: That is NOT permitted in NJ, while it is permitted in other states.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: jake on July 10, 2014, 06:47:10 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Same story along 99 (http://goo.gl/vbkD1M) south of Federal Way. Solid line for just a little while as the speed limit ups to 50 w/o a center lane.
That GSMV link above shows the solid 18-inch line.
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Since when? In most states, such as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, a quadruple yellow line means the same as a double yellow line. It's just to keep the streams of traffic more separated, but you can turn left across it.
Quote from: Brandon on August 07, 2014, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Since when? In most states, such as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, a quadruple yellow line means the same as a double yellow line. It's just to keep the streams of traffic more separated, but you can turn left across it.
While I understand that the law varies state-to-state, there is something to the "common knowledge" argument. I, personally, would not do things like cross double double-yellow lines or make right turns on a red arrow because by not doing so, I'm eliminating the risk of getting a ticket if such an action is illegal.
In Washington, driver's ed teaches you not to cross a double double-yellow. Right on red arrow after stop is allowed in Washington unless there's a regulatory sign prohibiting such action, but it's illegal in California.
Quote from: Brandon on August 07, 2014, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: jake on July 10, 2014, 06:47:10 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 10, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
South of Anacortes, WA, on SR-20, the wide-spaced WSDOT double yellow gets filled to a very thick single solid yellow line at turns where a left turn isn't permitted. There's signs that indicate a left turn is illegal through thick yellow line (I don't recall the exact nomenclature).
Unfortunately, street view shows the area before construction was done.
Same story along 99 (http://goo.gl/vbkD1M) south of Federal Way. Solid line for just a little while as the speed limit ups to 50 w/o a center lane.
That GSMV link above shows the solid 18-inch line.
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Since when? In most states, such as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, a quadruple yellow line means the same as a double yellow line. It's just to keep the streams of traffic more separated, but you can turn left across it.
Completely agree. By that logic, one is saying that they can't turn into a driveway located immediately before a left turn lane on a residential road because of the 2 sets of double yellows outlining the buffer zone. There is nowhere in the Northeast where such a move is illegal unless there is some form of barrier separating the opposing lanes or a sign telling one otherwise. It might be that way on the west coast, but it certainly isn't on the tight, congested roads of the northeast.
QuoteThis must be either extremely rare or a practice which has all but disappeared in recent years, because in 25 years of living in PA (and about a decade driving all throughout the state), I don't recall ever seeing a single line, even on the most remote rural roads. (Except, as was mentioned, occasionally in suburban housing developments and shopping centers where the private developer was likely responsible for construction.)
I have noticed municipal roads in middle Bucks County (I believe in Solebury), use single yellow lines.
Near me they recently (in the last 2-3 wks) replaced most of the single yellow lines with doubles. Before that, most non-major roads had single yellow lines.
It seems to me that double yellow lines create a bit of safety by increasing the separation of oncoming traffic
Quote from: Arkansastravelguy on June 21, 2014, 11:39:35 PM
I've seen single yellow lines in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts.
iPhone
Single yellow center lines are still commonplace on local streets in many communities in Massachusetts.
Quote from: cl94 on August 07, 2014, 06:09:27 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 07, 2014, 11:06:49 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on July 28, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Definitely useful if ROW is limited, but it's not necessary if you have the space. It's (or hopefully is) common knowledge that it's illegal to cross or turn on a quadruple yellow (or 2 sets of double-yellows).
Since when? In most states, such as Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, a quadruple yellow line means the same as a double yellow line. It's just to keep the streams of traffic more separated, but you can turn left across it.
Completely agree. By that logic, one is saying that they can't turn into a driveway located immediately before a left turn lane on a residential road because of the 2 sets of double yellows outlining the buffer zone. There is nowhere in the Northeast where such a move is illegal unless there is some form of barrier separating the opposing lanes or a sign telling one otherwise. It might be that way on the west coast, but it certainly isn't on the tight, congested roads of the northeast.
Based on my quick read of Utah traffic law, this movement appears to be illegal there as well (not that anybody actually follows this):
Quote from: 41-6a-713. Driving over gore area or island prohibited -- Exceptions -- Penalties.
(1)(a) A person may not operate a vehicle over, across, or within any part of a gore area or an island.
Quote from: 41-6a-102. Definitions.
(28) "Island" means an area between traffic lanes or at an intersection for control of vehicle movements or for pedestrian refuge designated by:
(a) pavement markings, which may include an area designated by two solid yellow lines surrounding the perimeter of the area;
(b) channelizing devices;
(c) curbs;
(d) pavement edges; or
(e) other devices.
Regarding double yellow lines, does anyone pay attention to the spacing of double yellow lines, not only the width of said lines but also the spacing between them? Arkansas tend to have wide spacing between the yellow lines, and the newer lines tend to be even fatter and even wider spacing. This goes for state highways; county highways follow the same spacing on some roads.
Texas also has wide spacing, except for the double-double yellow in which they're narrow (like when a 4 lane highway narrows down to 2 lanes, for example).
Georgia has narrow yellow lines with a narrow space between them.
California is the same, but they have a black line in between the 2 double yellows.
Alabama is slightly wider than Georgia.
Oklahoma's double yellows look slightly more narrow than Arkansas, but not by much.
New Mexico's are wide like Arkansas'
Arizona's are somewhere between New Mexico and California.
Quote from: capt.ron on May 31, 2020, 02:24:02 PM
Regarding double yellow lines, does anyone pay attention to the spacing of double yellow lines, not only the width of said lines but also the spacing between them?
I've been keeping track of this as well. Seems that individual cities do whatever they want, at least around here, but here's my observations for state/provincial routes:
* Both Washington and Oregon use a wider double yellow spacing.
Example from WA (https://goo.gl/maps/qxcLBXeSoWFmmVDX9);
example from OR (https://goo.gl/maps/n597pMhLHHq6TcvEA).
* In California and British Columbia (on roads with double instead of single yellow lines), a narrower spacing is used.
Example from CA (https://goo.gl/maps/ixZEu5BW9zz4nJ2o8);
example from BC (https://goo.gl/maps/jcvksrtRX6oFGDE37).
I've not really paid attention to the nuances beyond the spacing between the two yellow lines, such as the width of the yellow lines and whether any contrasting is used between them.
Here is the spacing (https://goo.gl/maps/vkSyTBR5JxZ2XxxW7) that was used in Minnesota on the new US-12 two-lane freeway, back before they put a median down the length of the whole thing.
US-41 / M-28 west of Marquette looks like the sorta-paved median is a left turn lane, but it's not. https://www.google.com/maps/@46.543035,-87.4841643,3a,75y,262.97h,87.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS-NCN9ejotTsJdyJ_4xZXg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DS-NCN9ejotTsJdyJ_4xZXg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D325.92316%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
This sort of spacing (https://goo.gl/maps/itkNAykeeRxLzdraA) is somewhat common in Mexico.
Another example here (https://goo.gl/maps/9pA8eJ2BRxLqcr9q8).
Quote from: jakeroot on May 31, 2020, 04:18:46 PM
* Both Washington and Oregon use a wider double yellow spacing. Example from WA (https://goo.gl/maps/qxcLBXeSoWFmmVDX9); example from OR (https://goo.gl/maps/n597pMhLHHq6TcvEA).
I've gotten the impression that wider spacings like this are a remnant of older striping patterns from back before the MUTCD formalized and standardized the yellow centerline striping patterns.
Some states used white broken lines as the center marking, but would have solid yellow lines on either side to indicate no passing (I've seen reference to this on old Nevada DOH maps). So you could have three closely-spaced lines down the center. Double yellow becomes the new norm? Cool, just eliminate the broken white in the middle.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 08:58:46 AM
Here is the spacing (https://goo.gl/maps/vkSyTBR5JxZ2XxxW7) that was used in Minnesota on the new US-12 two-lane freeway, back before they put a median down the length of the whole thing.
Never seen such wide stripe spacing in the US before. Almost wide enough for a bike lane. Gotta wonder if that was accidental, intentional to increase spacing between directions (I see double center rumble strips were installed later), or if they were pre-planning for the eventual jersey barrier all along...
Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 08:58:46 AM
Here is the spacing (https://goo.gl/maps/vkSyTBR5JxZ2XxxW7) that was used in Minnesota on the new US-12 two-lane freeway, back before they put a median down the length of the whole thing.
Never seen such wide stripe spacing in the US before. Almost wide enough for a bike lane. Gotta wonder if that was accidental, intentional to increase spacing between directions (I see double center rumble strips were installed later), or if they were pre-planning for the eventual jersey barrier all along...
It's been years now, but I don't recall seeing any mention of adding a barrier in the original plans.
Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 31, 2020, 04:18:46 PM
* Both Washington and Oregon use a wider double yellow spacing. Example from WA (https://goo.gl/maps/qxcLBXeSoWFmmVDX9); example from OR (https://goo.gl/maps/n597pMhLHHq6TcvEA).
I've gotten the impression that wider spacings like this are a remnant of older striping patterns from back before the MUTCD formalized and standardized the yellow centerline striping patterns.
Some states used white broken lines as the center marking, but would have solid yellow lines on either side to indicate no passing (I've seen reference to this on old Nevada DOH maps). So you could have three closely-spaced lines down the center. Double yellow becomes the new norm? Cool, just eliminate the broken white in the middle.
I hadn't considered that, but it makes perfect sense.
From the very limited research I've done on the matter, it seems that some states quickly rebuilt their standards when yellow center lines came into force, but others drug their feet. WA seems to have been one of the last states to transition, since A) there are still some roads with white center lines, B) I've seen more than a few photos from recent years showing white center lines, well after when I thought the rule went into place, and C) (possibly) their double yellow line spacing still has a spot for a white line down the middle. I think that's completely logical.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 08:58:46 AM
Here is the spacing (https://goo.gl/maps/vkSyTBR5JxZ2XxxW7) that was used in Minnesota on the new US-12 two-lane freeway, back before they put a median down the length of the whole thing.
Never seen such wide stripe spacing in the US before. Almost wide enough for a bike lane. Gotta wonder if that was accidental, intentional to increase spacing between directions (I see double center rumble strips were installed later), or if they were pre-planning for the eventual jersey barrier all along...
It's been years now, but I don't recall seeing any mention of adding a barrier in the original plans.
Pretty cool when it got to a passing zone, that a
double-dashed yellow pattern (https://goo.gl/maps/Xrbj1sXFL92LCW4u9) was used. Normally, of course, reserved for contraflow lanes, but more logical here with the super-wide spacing.
The UK can have similarly-wide spacing with double-dashed white lines, and they too permit overtaking. Actually nice, since you have some leeway to see if it's clear before committing to the maneuver. Too bad MN's implementation isn't more common.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Pretty cool when it got to a passing zone, that a double-dashed yellow pattern (https://goo.gl/maps/Xrbj1sXFL92LCW4u9) was used.
Only after an eventual re-striping. When it was first built, passing zones were marked with a simple broken yellow line. I remember it being rather weird
to go from two widely spaced lines to a single centered line (https://goo.gl/maps/p9Uxi5bZwXewzAjo6).
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 03:09:09 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Pretty cool when it got to a passing zone, that a double-dashed yellow pattern (https://goo.gl/maps/Xrbj1sXFL92LCW4u9) was used.
Only after an eventual re-striping. When it was first built, passing zones were marked with a simple broken yellow line. I remember it being rather weird to go from two widely spaced lines to a single centered line (https://goo.gl/maps/p9Uxi5bZwXewzAjo6).
I saw that when I was originally looking around in Street View. I suppose a changeover would have been necessary given that the lines would go from standard-to-wide in one direction, but suddenly get narrow in the other direction (even if it was transitioning from wide back to normal). Awkward enough of a transition that I think a painted gore area should have been used, although only as prelude to the current striping, which I feel is the best. I don't recall what the rules are for passing over a double dashed yellow line, but I'm guessing it's legal.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
current striping, which I feel is the best.
Current "striping" is a barrier for the entirety of the section.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
I don't recall what the rules are for passing over a double dashed yellow line, but I'm guessing it's legal.
I'm not sure such a rule even exists.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
current striping, which I feel is the best.
Current "striping" is a barrier for the entirety of the section.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
I don't recall what the rules are for passing over a double dashed yellow line, but I'm guessing it's legal.
I'm not sure such a rule even exists.
Unless there's signage explaining such, use your best judgement!
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
current striping, which I feel is the best.
Current "striping" is a barrier for the entirety of the section.
Yes, should have said *most recent* :-D
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2020, 04:41:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
I don't recall what the rules are for passing over a double dashed yellow line, but I'm guessing it's legal.
I'm not sure such a rule even exists.
Unless there's signage explaining such, use your best judgement!
Before the barrier went up, there were yellow "NO PASSING ZONE" pennants at the end of the dashed section. So there is signage, it's just the opposite of what might be helpful.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 01, 2020, 04:41:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 04:04:57 PM
I don't recall what the rules are for passing over a double dashed yellow line, but I'm guessing it's legal.
I'm not sure such a rule even exists.
Unless there's signage explaining such, use your best judgement!
Double dashed yellow lines are typically associated with reversible lanes, so there's usually separate lane control signage to dictate what kind of movements can happen.
In the Minnesota example, however, there was no lane between the dashed lines. Just enough room for two rumble strips.
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2020, 02:50:58 PM
In the Minnesota example, however, there was no lane between the dashed lines. Just enough room for two rumble strips.
The Minnesota US 12 example is pretty much an anomaly though. It seems those were meant to be interpreted as a single dash, but the agency didn't want to paint over/between the rumble strips.
Quote from: US 41 on June 21, 2014, 07:50:46 PM
Why exactly are there double yellow lines on the highway?
Where else can the police put their "RESPECT MUH (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1832522,-74.0242382,3a,65.8y,197.49h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spSTGXprb6EsZu7B4AKk00w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)" lines?
Has this even been branched out to other states or is this just a New Jersey thing? It had been ruled non-compliant with the MUTCD back in 2016 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interpretations/3_09_41.htm) but I wonder if the recent events will prompt more additions or removals.
EDIT: I guess Flemington is the first to remove theirs: [tweet]1269306832838963200[/tweet]
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 02, 2020, 06:04:08 PM
Where else can the police put their "RESPECT MUH (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1832522,-74.0242382,3a,65.8y,197.49h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spSTGXprb6EsZu7B4AKk00w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)" lines?
Has this even been branched out to other states or is this just a New Jersey thing? It had been ruled non-compliant with the MUTCD back in 2016 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interpretations/3_09_41.htm) but I wonder if the recent events will prompt more additions or removals.
It's for similar reasons that my least favorite part of the MUTCD is Section 353(b).
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 02, 2020, 06:04:08 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 21, 2014, 07:50:46 PM
Why exactly are there double yellow lines on the highway?
Where else can the police put their "RESPECT MUH (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1832522,-74.0242382,3a,65.8y,197.49h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spSTGXprb6EsZu7B4AKk00w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)" lines?
Along the outsides of a single yellow line, rather than between two parallel yellow lines.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 02, 2020, 11:39:05 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 02, 2020, 06:04:08 PM
Where else can the police put their "RESPECT MUH (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1832522,-74.0242382,3a,65.8y,197.49h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spSTGXprb6EsZu7B4AKk00w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)" lines?
Has this even been branched out to other states or is this just a New Jersey thing? It had been ruled non-compliant with the MUTCD back in 2016 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interpretations/3_09_41.htm) but I wonder if the recent events will prompt more additions or removals.
It's for similar reasons that my least favorite part of the MUTCD is Section 353(b).
Is this a reference to something else? That's not a section number that exists in the MUTCD...
Quote from: roadfro on June 03, 2020, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 02, 2020, 11:39:05 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 02, 2020, 06:04:08 PM
Where else can the police put their "RESPECT MUH (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1832522,-74.0242382,3a,65.8y,197.49h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spSTGXprb6EsZu7B4AKk00w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)" lines?
Has this even been branched out to other states or is this just a New Jersey thing? It had been ruled non-compliant with the MUTCD back in 2016 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interpretations/3_09_41.htm) but I wonder if the recent events will prompt more additions or removals.
It's for similar reasons that my least favorite part of the MUTCD is Section 353(b).
Is this a reference to something else? That's not a section number that exists in the MUTCD...
See below.
Quote from: MUTCD, 2009 Edition Appendix A1. Congressional Legislation
Section 353(b) STRIPES – Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a red, white, and blue center line in the Main Street of Bristol, Rhode Island, shall be deemed to comply with the requirements of Section 3B-1 of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices of the Department of Transportation.
^ Ah, so it's not an MUTCD section, but rather Congressional legislation that is referenced in the MUTCD (specifically a section of the National Highway System Designation Act of 1995).
Quote from: roadfro on June 04, 2020, 12:15:12 PM
^ Ah, so it's not an MUTCD section, but rather Congressional legislation that is referenced in the MUTCD (specifically a section of the National Highway System Designation Act of 1995).
So it seems. My apologies.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 21, 2014, 08:33:02 PM
A single yellow center line was specifically forbidden with the 2009 edition of the MUTCD.
The best answer as to single versus double center lines in the US is probably that the system just evolved that way. Though IMHO, a double center line has a better chance of being somewhat visible if the pavement markings are in extremely bad shape.
For those who probably haven't seen it before, a history of striping in the US can be found in this document. (https://ceprofs.civil.tamu.edu/ghawkins/MUTCD-History_files/MarkingColorEvolution.pdf)
In the US, white lines separate traffic headed in the
same direction and yellow in opposite direction. Single lines divide traffic that is about to separate. Double lines mean that crossing isn't permitted (except at right angles) (In California we use double solid while lines for HOV/Express lanes that aren't meant to be entered just wherever). I believe that the regulatory effect of a single solid yellow line would permit passing from either side in similar fashion as to a dashed yellow line.
Quote from: michravera on June 05, 2020, 02:10:21 AM
I believe that the regulatory effect of a single solid yellow line would permit passing from either side in similar fashion as to a dashed yellow line.
I don't believe a single yellow line is defined anywhere, so it's regulatory standing wouldn't be much different than a green or purple line down the middle...basically it means fuck-all. :-D
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 02:38:34 AM
Quote from: michravera on June 05, 2020, 02:10:21 AM
I believe that the regulatory effect of a single solid yellow line would permit passing from either side in similar fashion as to a dashed yellow line.
I don't believe a single yellow line is defined anywhere, so it's regulatory standing wouldn't be much different than a green or purple line down the middle...basically it means fuck-all. :-D
Correct, a single yellow line has no definition and is not to be used, per the standard statement in 2009 MUTCD Section 3B.01p05: "A single solid yellow line shall not be used as a center line marking on a two-way roadway." (Other standards specifying the centerline standard on undivided multi-lane roadways effectively eliminate the possibility of a single solid yellow line.)
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 02:38:34 AM
Quote from: michravera on June 05, 2020, 02:10:21 AM
I believe that the regulatory effect of a single solid yellow line would permit passing from either side in similar fashion as to a dashed yellow line.
I don't believe a single yellow line is defined anywhere, so it's regulatory standing wouldn't be much different than a green or purple line down the middle...basically it means fuck-all. :-D
I've always read or been told that a single solid yellow line is equivalent to a double solid yellow line, but a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line. However, now that I'm digging into it, I can't find anything to support that.
What I
have found, however, is this 2006 opinion from the Illinois Supreme Court:
Quote from: Governmental Interinsurance Exchange v. Judge (2006)
Section 11B304 of the Illinois Vehicle Code provides that, when placing traffic control devices, local authorities "shall," i.e., must, follow the Illinois Manual. See 625 ILCS 5/11B304 (West 1994). The Illinois Manual states that a broken yellow line indicates a two-direction passing zone. On those roads, passing is permitted for traffic traveling in either direction. In contrast, a broken yellow line and a solid yellow line indicates a one-direction no-passing zone. On those roads, passing is permitted only for the traffic traveling adjacent to the broken line. Reviewing the Illinois Manual and the Illinois Rules of the Road, the appellate court correctly concluded that a broken or skip-dash yellow line, by itself, is a traffic control device. In contrast, a solid yellow line, by itself, is not a traffic control device, because a one-direction no-passing zone requires both a broken yellow line and a solid yellow line, and a two-direction no-passing zone requires two solid yellow lines. 356 Ill. App. 3d at 274.
Meanwhile, single yellow lines are common in Canada (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0174439,-74.7196371,3a,75y,265.22h,82.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sa7nFFDpFetBabNS0KQVlUg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Da7nFFDpFetBabNS0KQVlUg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D21.26424%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). I think double yellow lines there are mainly for major roads.
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 02:38:34 AM
Quote from: michravera on June 05, 2020, 02:10:21 AM
I believe that the regulatory effect of a single solid yellow line would permit passing from either side in similar fashion as to a dashed yellow line.
I don't believe a single yellow line is defined anywhere, so it's regulatory standing wouldn't be much different than a green or purple line down the middle...basically it means fuck-all. :-D
I've always read or been told that a single solid yellow line is equivalent to a double solid yellow line, but a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line. However, now that I'm digging into it, I can't find anything to support that.
I would have guessed that a single solid yellow would be equivalent to a dashed yellow, just with "extra caution". Only because that's the rule in Canada.
Interestingly, you cannot cross a single solid white line in Canada (there is no double white equivalent), but you can in the US. Much the same as their single yellow, we can cross a single white line "with extra caution".
Quote from: vdeane on June 05, 2020, 12:50:54 PM
Meanwhile, single yellow lines are common in Canada (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0174439,-74.7196371,3a,75y,265.22h,82.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sa7nFFDpFetBabNS0KQVlUg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Da7nFFDpFetBabNS0KQVlUg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D21.26424%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). I think double yellow lines there are mainly for major roads.
Indeed. In BC, single yellow is used extensively even on four and six lane roads (such as
here in downtown Vancouver (https://goo.gl/maps/vc51sLNiL2JCw8MR6), where two six-lane arterials meet with a single yellow line). They are used when passing is acceptable but to be done with more caution than a dashed yellow. In practice, they completely replace dashed yellow lines in most urban areas, and traditional American-style dashed and double yellow markings are reserved for suburban and rural areas, or when a particular city decides they prefer that marking instead. Double yellow also tends to be used when an arterial acts more like a cattle chute between two major intersections,
such as the Patullo Bridge (https://goo.gl/maps/D8knjKuSNE6GMtqD8). The single yellow line, to me, is the most obvious giveaway when a car commercial in filmed in either Vancouver or Toronto.
Anyone looking for rules about signals, signs, and markings in Canada should take a loot at the Insurance Corporation for British Columbia's (ICBC)
driver's manual (https://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Documents/drivers3.pdf). It goes quite in-depth in what all the different markings mean.
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
...
a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line.
How so?
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 04:03:05 PM
Interestingly, you cannot cross a single solid white line in Canada (there is no double white equivalent), but you can in the US. Much the same as their single yellow, we can cross a single white line "with extra caution".
Around here, at least, you're not supposed to cross single white lines. They're normally used in construction zones, often accompanied by "STAY IN LANE" signage.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 04:03:05 PM
I would have guessed that a single solid yellow would be equivalent to a dashed yellow, just with "extra caution". Only because that's the rule in Canada.
Do you have a code reference for that? I've been on roads in Canada that use only single dashed and single solid yellow center striping–no double solid lines to be found. For example, if your definition is correct, then what does it mean
when a dashed yellow line transitions to a single solid yellow line (https://goo.gl/maps/J94HM42trUKGH9K76)? And, then, passing
here (https://goo.gl/maps/UUZuA2vzmirErkSs6) is allowed?
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line.
How so?
According to the MUTCD:
Quote from: MUTCD 2009 Edition, Chapter 3B
Section 3B.04 White Lane Line Pavement Markings and Warrants
20 Where crossing the lane line markings is discouraged, the lane line markings shall consist of a normal or wide solid white line.
30 Where crossing the lane line markings is prohibited, the lane line markings shall consist of a solid double white line (see Figure 3B-12).
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2020, 04:03:05 PM
I would have guessed that a single solid yellow would be equivalent to a dashed yellow, just with "extra caution". Only because that's the rule in Canada.
Do you have a code reference for that? I've been on roads in Canada that use only single dashed and single solid yellow center striping–no double solid lines to be found. For example, if your definition is correct, then what does it mean when a dashed yellow line transitions to a single solid yellow line (https://goo.gl/maps/J94HM42trUKGH9K76)? And, then, passing here (https://goo.gl/maps/UUZuA2vzmirErkSs6) is allowed?
Not a code reference, but Wikipedia and I both agree with Jake:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_line_(road_marking)#Canada
Quote from: WikipediaIn Canada, Japan, Lebanon a single yellow line is used to separate traffic coming from opposite directions, where passing is allowed but with extreme caution. In the United States a yellow line is also used to separate traffic coming from opposite directions, but a solid line indicates that passing is not allowed. A broken yellow line indicates that passing is allowed.
So in your first example, the switch from dashed to solid means passing was totally legit, and now, you can still pass, but there's a reason it's not dashed (driveways? hill ahead? curve ahead?), so just use additional caution before passing. In the second example, you're supposed to know that you shouldn't be passing on a curve.
However, I don't think this is a distinction that comes into play very often. That is, drivers in Canada don't have a totally different mindset about single yellow lines. I think it's primarily just a provision to make things a little simpler and less rigid on local and rural roads with little traffic. Now you can legally go around Mary Lou turning into her driveway, or pass Joe the garbage truck driver, or pass Jimmy as he drives his tractor from one field to another. It's probably used way more often for these little types of things than it is for actual, legitimate highway speed passing. Because the types of roads where you find these single yellow lines aren't usually high speed, or major through traffic roads. Those will usually have double solid lines, just like we do here. Here's an Ontario example (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3456218,-80.692595,3a,75y,323.21h,74.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEbfUTO7pn20A6hcB8DIP4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1). And another (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0149951,-80.8378254,3a,75y,330.16h,86.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3dYPLwvN8C4ruKdCEDGIwQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1).
Come to think of it, this is a really smart provision, and I wish the US did this, too. We'd certainly have less cramming on the brakes for mail trucks, garbage trucks, herds of bikers, or whoever else might be spilling out into the road from the shoulder.
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line.
How so?
According to the MUTCD:
Quote from: MUTCD 2009 Edition, Chapter 3B
Section 3B.04 White Lane Line Pavement Markings and Warrants
20 Where crossing the lane line markings is discouraged, the lane line markings shall consist of a normal or wide solid white line.
30 Where crossing the lane line markings is prohibited, the lane line markings shall consist of a solid double white line (see Figure 3B-12).
Hmm. Very subtle difference. I always thought crossing either type was prohibited, but maybe that's because I've rarely seen single white lines outside construction zones. Learn something new every day, I guess.
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
Hmm. Very subtle difference. I always thought crossing either type was prohibited, but maybe that's because I've rarely seen single white lines outside construction zones. Learn something new every day, I guess.
You and a lot of other people. The solid white lines in construction zones are typically used because the roadway is curving around a site, and they are trying extra hard to keep traffic in their respective lanes. Changing lanes is still permitted. If an accident occurs, the driver crossing the solid white may be more likely to be found at-fault. Still, not illegal to cross the line.
Best example: in several west coast states, HOV lanes are
separated by a solid white line (https://goo.gl/maps/AigjU7ynKFJJV3YH7), throughout its entire length. Crossing the line willy-nilly is discouraged, but obviously not outright illegal since you have to be able to leave and depart the lane depending on your route. Sometimes double-solid white lines are used, but only for two-lane express lanes here. And only because there are toll gantries. This in contrast to
the style in British Columbia (https://goo.gl/maps/JQtQTH6uWgWmzb1G7), where the single solid white has dashed sections to allow entry and exit, since the law in Canada is different.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 06, 2020, 01:22:41 AM
Best example: in several west coast states, HOV lanes are separated by a solid white line (https://goo.gl/maps/AigjU7ynKFJJV3YH7), throughout its entire length. Crossing the line willy-nilly is discouraged, but obviously not outright illegal since you have to be able to leave and depart the lane depending on your route.
Came here to post exactly this - when the express lanes were first put in on I-15 in Salt Lake City, they used this exact setup: single solid white line with no dedicated entry/exit zones (and signed as a “carpool lane”). That didn’t last long, though - after a few years, they switched to the more standard double-white line setup with specific entry/exit points, in preparation for conversion to an HOT setup with toll gantries.
Quote from: US 89 on June 06, 2020, 01:49:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 06, 2020, 01:22:41 AM
Best example: in several west coast states, HOV lanes are separated by a solid white line (https://goo.gl/maps/AigjU7ynKFJJV3YH7), throughout its entire length. Crossing the line willy-nilly is discouraged, but obviously not outright illegal since you have to be able to leave and depart the lane depending on your route.
Came here to post exactly this - when the express lanes were first put in on I-15 in Salt Lake City, they used this exact setup: single solid white line with no dedicated entry/exit zones (and signed as a "carpool lane" ). That didn't last long, though - after a few years, they switched to the more standard double-white line setup with specific entry/exit points, in preparation for conversion to an HOT setup with toll gantries.
Interestingly, the Valley Freeway (WA-167) near Seattle has HOT lanes along its entire length, yet it uses a single white line. It was converted to HOT lanes in 2008, and
double white lines were installed (https://goo.gl/maps/QGbX9rv7h6Vkor5G8) with entry and exit points. Drivers hated it, so they were removed about five years ago. Drivers can more easily avoid the toll gantries now, but police do watch the lane from time to time. And drivers were crossing the double solid white all the time anyways.
Wow, I had no idea that HOV/HOT lanes existed without designated entry/exit points. The ones I'm familiar with in the Toronto area are totally illegal to float back and forth between the regular and the HOV lane except at a designated point for each interchange. The HOV lane functions almost like its own mini-freeway, with signage to boot. Like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4066726,-79.7436839,3a,46.8y,35.95h,96.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA_CDEBKPBjs-wGocMpJgjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). And this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3844496,-79.7684895,3a,47.4y,214.64h,94.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWKmbxf12v0Psn8KetT--Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Quote from: webny99 on June 06, 2020, 12:07:11 PM
Wow, I had no idea that HOV/HOT lanes existed without designated entry/exit points. The ones I'm familiar with in the Toronto area are totally illegal to float back and forth between the regular and the HOV lane except at a designated point for each interchange. The HOV lane functions almost like its own mini-freeway, with signage to boot. (Will add some examples later.)
Well, there's your problem! You're looking too far north! :-D As I pointed out with my link to the BC example, Canadian HOV and HOT lanes, if they don't just use dotted lines throughout the entire length, are going to use entry and exit points because you cannot cross a solid white
in Canada. That's not the case in the US. Thankfully, in my opinion, since there is a subtedly between "shouldn't change lanes" and "shall not change lanes" that Americans get to appreciate; much the same as the subtedly of the single solid yellow that Canadians get to appreciate.
There are parts of America with similar mini-freeway designs.
On the 405 east of Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/MJduq77NaMAVVopHA), the express lanes have their own entrances and exits, with their own signage (white instead of green). These do have entry and exit points, and quadruple white lines are used to separate the lanes from the general purpose lanes.
On the 91, in Southern California (https://goo.gl/maps/PeVBDofzXdtoHr9j7), there are toll lanes in the center (same as above), with designated entry and exit points with their own signage. Again, quadruple white lines are used, although flexi-posts are also used to further discourage lane changing. I don't know which state lifted the quadruple white style from who, but the 91 used to have
quadruple yellow markings (https://goo.gl/maps/H4vuqmY8zzZ2VSiN6) (as in common on many other Southern California freeways).
How about we add triple yellow lines to the single versus double debate? I am not sure some of them in Missouri are just from repainting without lining up with the old lines. Example on US 63 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ri3RExydQovc1Tyi8)
I thought there was also an example on Us 160 in Missouri, but I cannot find it in Streetview.
Though after looking at a similar setup on MO 5 (https://goo.gl/maps/H1GFczAMMeeXELsK8), it could be they tried to do two double yellow lines and didn't get the separate quite correct.
Those actually look nice, especially that MO 5 example. Something very Nordic about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is.
I mentioned several pages back that, instead of using four yellow lines, WSDOT instead opts to use a single, really thick yellow line to indicate where crossing is 100% prohibited. To follow up the past debate, this may be the only example of a legislated single yellow line in the US. Basically, RCW 46.61.150 indicates that a median island can be formed by yellow pavement markings. Thus, a single yellow 18-inch wide yellow median island:
(https://i.imgur.com/jagvMPd.png)
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 05, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
a single solid white line is not equivalent to a double solid white line.
How so?
According to the MUTCD:
Quote from: MUTCD 2009 Edition, Chapter 3B
Section 3B.04 White Lane Line Pavement Markings and Warrants
20 Where crossing the lane line markings is discouraged, the lane line markings shall consist of a normal or wide solid white line.
30 Where crossing the lane line markings is prohibited, the lane line markings shall consist of a solid double white line (see Figure 3B-12).
Hmm. Very subtle difference. I always thought crossing either type was prohibited, but maybe that's because I've rarely seen single white lines outside construction zones. Learn something new every day, I guess.
Never seen a shoulder line?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 06, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
I always thought crossing either type was prohibited, but maybe that's because I've rarely seen single white lines outside construction zones. Learn something new every day, I guess.
Never seen a shoulder line?
I'm gonna guess he means as a divider between lanes. And more to his credit, in most states, everything to the right of the shoulder line is "off the roadway", thus you're not really allowed to cross that line. There are exceptions to the rule for turning, and in some places, passing, but generally it's the division between roadway (driveable area) and non-roadway (non-driveable area). Ergo, don't cross the solid white line.
Still, even in those situations, crossing the shoulder line is not outright banned. But it's something to keep in mind.
LOL, yes, of course I meant between lanes. Shoulder lines are a different story, although when it comes to those, I would apply a logic similar to Canada's logic for single yellow center lines. Cross, (and pass, where the shoulder has been widened to allow it) but do so with caution.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 06, 2020, 10:05:48 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 06, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 05, 2020, 11:23:20 PM
I always thought crossing either type was prohibited, but maybe that's because I've rarely seen single white lines outside construction zones. Learn something new every day, I guess.
Never seen a shoulder line?
I'm gonna guess he means as a divider between lanes. And more to his credit, in most states, everything to the right of the shoulder line is "off the roadway", thus you're not really allowed to cross that line. There are exceptions to the rule for turning, and in some places, passing, but generally it's the division between roadway (driveable area) and non-roadway (non-driveable area). Ergo, don't cross the solid white line.
Still, even in those situations, crossing the shoulder line is not outright banned. But it's something to keep in mind.
Bingo.
Everything you said is true about a single line, subject to individual state statute. It doesn't matter where the line is located. And that was my point: A single line isn't meant to be crossed, but its prohibition isn't absolute.
Quote from: webny99 on June 08, 2020, 08:46:13 AM
LOL, yes, of course I meant between lanes. Shoulder lines are a different story, although when it comes to those, I would apply a logic similar to Canada's logic for single yellow center lines. Cross, (and pass, where the shoulder has been widened to allow it) but do so with caution.
For the reasons I mentioned above, they're actually the same story. Motorists often think of the placement of the line to mean different things, but ultimately the meaning is actually the same.
Referencing the MUTCD, it states that the single white line can be used in various situations, but its intent is the same. While the MUTCD is guidance, the absolute law comes down to individual states and their interpretation how to treat the single line.
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part3.htm#lmq1
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 08, 2020, 09:33:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on June 08, 2020, 08:46:13 AM
LOL, yes, of course I meant between lanes. Shoulder lines are a different story, although when it comes to those, I would apply a logic similar to Canada's logic for single yellow center lines. Cross, (and pass, where the shoulder has been widened to allow it) but do so with caution.
For the reasons I mentioned above, they're actually the same story. Motorists often think of the placement of the line to mean different things, but ultimately the meaning is actually the same.
OK, fair enough. That's mostly due to my lack of knowledge about white lines between lanes, and the fact that I'm only familiar with them in construction zones. Those tend to have so many special rules, laws and regulations that I tend to just assume something is illegal in a construction zone if there's even a chance of it being so.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 08, 2020, 09:33:37 AM
Referencing the MUTCD, it states that the single white line can be used in various situations, but its intent is the same. While the MUTCD is guidance, the absolute law comes down to individual states and their interpretation how to treat the single line.
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part3.htm#lmq1
I had not seen that section before. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 06, 2020, 07:46:26 PM
Those actually look nice, especially that MO 5 example. Something very Nordic about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is.
To my eyes, it looks a lot like
Sweden's 2+1 highways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road#/media/File:MMLNorr1.JPG).
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2020, 11:07:38 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 06, 2020, 07:46:26 PM
Those actually look nice, especially that MO 5 example. Something very Nordic about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is.
To my eyes, it looks a lot like Sweden's 2+1 highways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road#/media/File:MMLNorr1.JPG).
Yes yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. Thank you for the link. I think MoDOT was inspired by those highways when they rebuilt some of their single-carriageway rural routes however many years ago.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 01, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 31, 2020, 04:18:46 PM
* Both Washington and Oregon use a wider double yellow spacing. Example from WA (https://goo.gl/maps/qxcLBXeSoWFmmVDX9); example from OR (https://goo.gl/maps/n597pMhLHHq6TcvEA).
I've gotten the impression that wider spacings like this are a remnant of older striping patterns from back before the MUTCD formalized and standardized the yellow centerline striping patterns.
Some states used white broken lines as the center marking, but would have solid yellow lines on either side to indicate no passing (I've seen reference to this on old Nevada DOH maps). So you could have three closely-spaced lines down the center. Double yellow becomes the new norm? Cool, just eliminate the broken white in the middle.
I hadn't considered that, but it makes perfect sense.
From the very limited research I've done on the matter, it seems that some states quickly rebuilt their standards when yellow center lines came into force, but others drug their feet. WA seems to have been one of the last states to transition, since A) there are still some roads with white center lines, B) I've seen more than a few photos from recent years showing white center lines, well after when I thought the rule went into place, and C) (possibly) their double yellow line spacing still has a spot for a white line down the middle. I think that's completely logical.
Where have you seen white centerlines in WA? Are you sure they weren't just faded yellow lines? Those can sometimes look white, especially in bright sunlight.
Also I'm not so sure on that being the reason for having wider spacing, though it does indeed leave enough space for a line in between since the gap is 12", so a 4" line with 4" of space on both sides fits nicely in between the two solid yellows. You can actually see that here on WA-202 (https://goo.gl/maps/VL53cSPuzVCKC4A38) where a passing zone has been converted to no passing. I suspect this may have more to do with the reason for the wider spacing since it allows making this change without having to remove the dashed line or pain the double yellow off-center. I also think wanting to encourage more separation between opposing traffic is a factor since only WSDOT uses the 12" spacing and state highways generally have higher speeds where this is more of a concern (especially considering that cities are generally responsible for striping on state highways within city limits).
It's also worth noting that solid/broken lines that prohibit passing in one direction do have a more normal space of 4", the same width as the stripes, as shown here on US-2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Rg7vW4eC9uWvXjgk7). This makes it so that there are effectively three "zones" where the stripes are painted, one for the dashed line in the middle and one for each solid line to the side, and each type of line is always painted in the same "zone", which I like and think looks good since a dashed line will always be in the exact center of the roadway. In contrast, with only 4" spacing between double yellows, the dashed line must be painted in the same "zone" as the solid line where passing is allowed in one direction, meaning it changes positions slightly when transitioning from solid and broken lines to a single broken line.
Quote from: stevashe on June 26, 2020, 03:19:55 PM
Where have you seen white centerlines in WA? Are you sure they weren't just faded yellow lines? Those can sometimes look white, especially in bright sunlight.
Definitely not faded. They are white. I can't link examples as I'm on currently on a plane but you can Google them:
* Tacoma: N Yakima, west of 3rd St, for a substantial number of blocks (10+ easily); single solid white line. There are some stretches where some yellow had been previously painted as a dashed line directly over the solid white, but have largely faded. The white is still very visible.
* Tacoma: East 25th, west of Portland Ave for about ten blocks. Bits of it have been worn away due to the poor quality of the street (loaded with potholes).
EDIT: Pictures (in order listed above)...both were taken within the last couple months, and reflect current conditions:
(https://i.imgur.com/HdncFTx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/daonISE.jpg)