This is a very common and downright unsafe design practice, and it's ridiculous that the government does crap like this.
They don't give a rat's ass about people's safety. At a signalized intersection, you can at least wait for the green arrow. But, at a non-signalized intersection, you don't have that luxury.
At wider cross streets, the problem still exists, but is less severe, because you can kinda move forward and be able to see enough. However, at two-lane cross streets, the problem is very bad.
Really, how had would it be to narrow the median to sliver, and move the turn lanes over so that people can see?
The picture below is in front of my neighborhood. I have to put up with this s*** every day.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg&hash=b2289b3bf39707c67b26f8028cb6ad09c6a17c31) (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/Brian5561/media/6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg.html)
I've heard the solution called a "Mississippi left". the left turns are given their own channel and the opposing left-turn vehicles end up to the left of each other, as opposed to directly opposite each other.
here is a fairly extreme example, where right-of-way acquisition is not an issue.
http://goo.gl/maps/FCxFf
I'm not sure how this solution could be modified to work where right-of-way cost is a premium.
The entrance to my neighborhood has one of these, and it's an absolute pain to put up with. There's enough room for people to pull up closer to the center median to alleviate the visibility issue, but most people aren't considerate enough to think of that. Traffic on DE 2 is usually moving pretty quickly along this stretch of road also, so decisions need to made fairly quickly. Otherwise you'll be stuck at the light for what seems like an eternity.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMrSf91M.jpg&hash=9f7f2505c66e59231b650098c40275cea6f48641)
Woodman Avenue in Van Nuys, California used to be like that.
Quote from: Brian556 on June 24, 2014, 01:25:18 PM
This is a very common and downright unsafe design practice, and it's ridiculous that the government does crap like this.
They don't give a rat's ass about people's safety. At a signalized intersection, you can at least wait for the green arrow. But, at a non-signalized intersection, you don't have that luxury.
At wider cross streets, the problem still exists, but is less severe, because you can kinda move forward and be able to see enough. However, at two-lane cross streets, the problem is very bad.
Really, how had would it be to narrow the median to sliver, and move the turn lanes over so that people can see?
The picture below is in front of my neighborhood. I have to put up with this s*** every day.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg&hash=b2289b3bf39707c67b26f8028cb6ad09c6a17c31) (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/Brian5561/media/6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg.html)
That's a great picture showing the site distance issue. I have seen double left turns run permissively which leads to nasty site distance problems as well.
Somehow this s*** flies.
^^ My only issue with this is the tank..er..SUV in the opposing left turn lane. Otherwise, I've seen worse.
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2014, 03:09:20 PM
^^ My only issue with this is the tank..er..SUV in the opposing left turn lane. Otherwise, I've seen worse.
you mean the one on the right, going the same direction as the observer, is not an abomination in your eyes?
I don't know what that beast is, but it is certainly ugly.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 24, 2014, 03:31:48 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2014, 03:09:20 PM
^^ My only issue with this is the tank..er..SUV in the opposing left turn lane. Otherwise, I've seen worse.
you mean the one on the right, going the same direction as the observer, is not an abomination in your eyes?
I don't know what that beast is, but it is certainly ugly.
No, the Ford Expedition in front of the observer. The other one, the Lincoln in the left lane (same direction as observer) is just as bad, IMHO.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg&hash=b2289b3bf39707c67b26f8028cb6ad09c6a17c31)
At this intersection, if the oncoming turn lane is occupied by a car or an SUV, the situation is the same, you can't see s***.
Quote from: Brian556 on June 24, 2014, 05:10:13 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F6242014024_zps0f2f29f1.jpg&hash=b2289b3bf39707c67b26f8028cb6ad09c6a17c31)
At this intersection, if the oncoming turn lane is occupied by a car or an SUV, the situation is the same, you can't see s***.
It's like that at a lot of intersections. Take your time and wait. It's not a problem to me or for me. I fail to see a major problem here beyond the fact that the Ford Expedition is just too damn big a vehicle. Were it a normal car, it would not be a problem.
I'm no more of a fan of large vehicles that you guys are. They negatively impact the safety of others too much; especially when you can't see around one that is blocking your view when backing out of a parking space.
The problem seems to be with the fact that the Expedition isn't pulling out into the intersection to turn. A movement such as this would help (I would think):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuxXG905.png&hash=056b302cd70e5fab38e3b99fbd8af9972370b2a2)
Apologies for the extremelly crude 30 second drawing.
Also,
Edmonton, AB's approach (http://goo.gl/VKMbsI)seems to work well.
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2014, 03:47:24 PM
No, the Ford Expedition in front of the observer. The other one, the Lincoln in the left lane (same direction as observer) is just as bad, IMHO.
that's what I meant. they're both awful. as is the maroon one coming in the opposite direction, #3 lane.
3 out of 4 nearest cars are monster SUVs. well, it could be worse. in 2004 it would have been at least 6 out of 4.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 24, 2014, 06:19:47 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2014, 03:47:24 PM
No, the Ford Expedition in front of the observer. The other one, the Lincoln in the left lane (same direction as observer) is just as bad, IMHO.
that's what I meant. they're both awful. as is the maroon one coming in the opposite direction, #3 lane.
3 out of 4 nearest cars are monster SUVs. well, it could be worse. in 2004 it would have been at least 6 out of 4.
At least we're spared the Lincoln MKT (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Lincoln_MKT) in that photo... :no:
Wetherbee Road WB at the westernmost Isle of Wright Boulevard intersection with Balcome Road. You have a protected left arrow going both ways there, but heading WB if you try to make a left when green, the idiot cars making the left turn EB the other way block your view of the line of sight for EB through traffic.
I say idiot because here in Florida we have left turn motorists who love to stay behind the stop bar to make left turns instead of pulling out into the intersection even if it means missing the light and having to wait until the next time around. On divided highways with wide medians it is essential to pull out into the median break area to make a left, yet they still stay behind the bar until its clear despite the limited sight distance they create for themselves for not moving into the intersection.
No one is requiring you to turn if you can't see. Honestly in this situation, I can usually move my head over slightly and I can see fine, or pull out slightly and see just fine.
I'd rather have this than a protected left, where you can sit there for a while with no opposing traffic.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 28, 2014, 01:51:15 PM
No one is requiring you to turn if you can't see. Honestly in this situation, I can usually move my head over slightly and I can see fine, or pull out slightly and see just fine.
I'd rather have this than a protected left, where you can sit there for a while with no opposing traffic.
Do you mean left turn signal? Permissive/ Protected is when you have a green arrow at first and then lets you left on yield at the other times. You describe a left turn signal.
I know what you mean as we have full left turn signals that are not warranted here, where I can sit and wait for no oncoming vehicles indefinitely before its my turn to have a green arrow.
This brings up another similar thing. The new Osceola Parkway on ramp to NB John Young Parkway in Kissimmee, FL has the same as the NJ Turnpike and NJ 139 at Jersey Avenue with separate greens to allow NJT access to Jersey Avenue NB and NJ 139 to be able to turn right into the the Newport Center road. Here it allows JYP all turns to Thacker and Greenwold and allows the ramp left turn access to Thacker. However I sit at the ramp signal with no one coming NB on JYP when all I am doing is going NB onto JYP. Even is there are cars on SB JYP, they do not interfere with me, nor as I do them, but the signal does not know my movement so its got to respect those few (very few I might add) who want to turn left onto Thacker Avenue.
I imagine that those on NJ 139 feel the same way at times when NJT vehicles do not turn, but continue straight into the Holland Tunnel that their wait is unnecessary as well, but I am sure more vehicles go to Hoboken from I-78 than to the Loop from Osceola Parkway.
Protected left is when you can only turn on a green left arrow, which is what I was referring to. (And what I don't generally like to deal with)
Permissive is when you get the left arrow in advance, which is what the OP's pic shows.
I was always under the impression a permissive and protected are both the same. Many documents I have saw always used both names with the slash in between and throughout the years I have always said Left Turn Signal for protected and protected for the other.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
I was always under the impression a permissive and protected are both the same. Many documents I have saw always used both names with the slash in between and throughout the years I have always said Left Turn Signal for protected and protected for the other.
From my knowledge, signals are...
...protected
...permissive
...protected/permissive
Also, protected/permissive doesn't necessarily mean green arrow in advance (minus doghouses). In Alberta, the protected phase often follows the permissive phase. This situation is true for both single and double lefts.
Quote from: jake on June 28, 2014, 07:36:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2014, 04:27:08 PM
I was always under the impression a permissive and protected are both the same. Many documents I have saw always used both names with the slash in between and throughout the years I have always said Left Turn Signal for protected and protected for the other.
From my knowledge, signals are...
...protected
...permissive
...protected/permissive
Also, protected/permissive doesn't necessarily mean green arrow in advance (minus doghouses). In Alberta, the protected phase often follows the permissive phase. This situation is true for both single and double lefts.
Correct. The different protected/permissive operations are referred to as lead (protected green comes before the permissive phase) and lag (protected green comes after the permissive phase).
The official term for the oncoming car about to T-bone you as you make the left is the "ghost car". We coined this based on this intersection near where I used to work, where accidents like this happened constantly:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.073663,-74.17811&spn=0.000008,0.006539&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.073607,-74.178994&panoid=p80qJszGPmx4KtJmB33FTQ&cbp=12,295.99,,0,-2.03 (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=40.073663,-74.17811&spn=0.000008,0.006539&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.073607,-74.178994&panoid=p80qJszGPmx4KtJmB33FTQ&cbp=12,295.99,,0,-2.03)
It was rare turning left that you would not face an opposing left turning vehicle, with the ghost car coming out of nowhere in the far right opposing lane. They finally added a leading green arrow shown here, unfortunately right after my job moved elsewhere.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2014, 12:20:54 PM
Wetherbee Road WB at the westernmost Isle of Wright Boulevard intersection with Balcome Road. You have a protected left arrow going both ways there, but heading WB if you try to make a left when green, the idiot cars making the left turn EB the other way block your view of the line of sight for EB through traffic.
I say idiot because here in Florida we have left turn motorists who love to stay behind the stop bar to make left turns instead of pulling out into the intersection even if it means missing the light and having to wait until the next time around. On divided highways with wide medians it is essential to pull out into the median break area to make a left, yet they still stay behind the bar until its clear despite the limited sight distance they create for themselves for not moving into the intersection.
I'm amused by this attitude. There's no obligation to move out into the intersection, regardless of the impatient driver behind you. Whether I move out depends on the particular intersection–for example, at the one nearest my house I know from 13 years of living here that there's very little chance of getting a break in traffic to turn, so I seldom bother. I know of a number of other intersections that are large enough spaces that you can see just fine without pulling out.
Frankly, I often find it easier to see the other side of the road if I stay behind the line given the large number of big SUVs and minivans.
Either way, I never wait with my wheels turned as though I've partially made the turn. If you get rear-ended when you do that, you get pushed into oncoming traffic. That's far worse than waiting for the green arrow. My bottom line principle is that I go when, and only when, I feel it's safe to go. The guy behind me doesn't get to decide that. I'm especially wary in the rain because of the people who refuse to obey the law requiring headlight use.
I remember once upon a time seeing a list showing that in some states, the maneuver where you move out into the intersection and then finish your turn after the light is red is illegal because you're not allowed to be in the intersection (think "the box") when the light is red. I can't find that list now, though, so I have no idea whether any states (and, if so, which ones) have that law. I'm sure even if they do it's rarely enforced, though.
Actually I was taught that in Drivers Ed to pull out and living in NJ back in the 80's where permissive left turns were very rare, you had no choice but to pull out and have your wheels turned. In many intersections you would never be able to make your turn at all as doing this allowed you to make it during the change phase.
In the intersection I was talking about I have trouble seeing the other side of the road because of people stopping before the bar on the opposite side of the road. If they pulled into the median, I could have an unlimited sight distance.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 01, 2014, 08:16:01 AM
Actually I was taught that in Drivers Ed to pull out and living in NJ back in the 80's where permissive left turns were very rare, you had no choice but to pull out and have your wheels turned. ....
I would not be surprised at all if this teaching is one of those things that varies in different parts of the country. I don't recall what, if anything, the driver's ed instructor taught us on that issue. I remember at the permissive left turn I made most often back then (a U-turn to reach my parents' neighborhood; it's no longer a permissive left) you pretty much had to pull out because the green arrow didn't always come on even if cars were in the turn lane.
I don't doubt that part of the reason I'm less likely to pull out into the intersection than I was 25 years ago is that red-light running has become a much bigger problem here than it was then. It's pretty much standard at many lights that at least one car will sail through after the light turns. I'd rather not risk dealing with that!
Bottom line is Wetherbee Road in Orlando at Balcomb Road needs a full left turn (protected) signal at this location. The problem is we grow faster than our signal engineers can address problems.
Yes, I am talking about 25 years ago where a lot has changed since then. I believe NJ now has more permissive turns than back in the 80's. However, I generally now stay behind the stop bar, except in this intersection because the other vehicles block my view. Therefore I break my rule as to make a safe turn.
You're supposed to stop at the stop bar. I don't know if that's the law or not, but it's what the engineers preach.
It occurs to me to wonder when were these constructed. Were they built 30 or more years ago, when cars were more likely to be a similar size? Maybe, when they built, there was only the occasional light truck to be a problem. Did anyone foresee the proliferation of SUVs and how dangerous they would make this type of intersection?
Even so, the fact remains that this situation is very dangerous and should be addressed.
I honestly think this isn't a design flaw, it's more of the "BIG UGLY SUV". Try doing that with a semi and welcome to my world.
Worst case scenario, just wait till the thru-traffic light turns yellow and then make your turn if you can't see. Better safe than sorry :nod: