A lot of street signs in all five boroughs of NYC are replacing the older ALL CAPS street signs, since they are considered as "shouting" when using capital letters. Also, something to do with visibility issues, where reading lower case is easier. However, I wonder if they are replacing all signs, since they have done several blocks here and there, but left many with the older signs. Some of them are also in need of replacement anyway, due to them being faded and sun bleached. I think a new rule is in place in this whole country to use lowercase on all guide signs. NJ and DE are slowly doing the same.
http://forgotten-ny.com/2014/04/the-perversity-of-street-sign-replacement/
Because they're shouting? Seriously? Is this not the new national standard based on legibility for an aging population? Personally, I don't find them more legible, but I get what they are going for.
If this were indeed about the signs seeming to shout at you, well, they should be shouting–it's New York, goddamnit.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 16, 2014, 01:43:37 PM
Because they're shouting? Seriously? Is this not the new national standard based on legibility for an aging population? Personally, I don't find them more legible, but I get what they are going for.
If this were indeed about the signs seeming to shout at you, well, they should be shouting–it's New York, goddamnit.
I read something a while ago about some psychology research showing that people recognize words by shape and that using all uppercase effectively makes everything a rectangle. Also, the Westchester thing where they but street names in boxes on exit signs is supposed to be especially bad from that perspective (although I always thought it was cool).
2009 MUTCD requires all new street name signs to be mixed-case (section 2D.05.02). Additionally, the FHWA is mandating that all signs be reflectorized. If NYCDOT is replacing non-reflective or fading signs, they must be mixed-case.
I recall seeing something where the "improvements" of mixed case legends on smaller street name and guide signs weren't actually based on tests of those legend sizes. Rather, they were apparently extrapolated from the results for larger (i.e. freeway) sign legends.
A number of communities in my area have begun replacing their all-uppercase street name signs with mixed-case signs. In my opinion, the supposed legibility advantages gained by going to mixed case legend (the "shape" theory) are more than offset by the reduction in legibility due to the fact that the majority of the legend is now 75% smaller than it was before.
So, just like Clearview, this appears to be another case where FHWA adopted a standard based on input from human factors "experts" without thoroughly testing it in real world conditions first.
Quote from: cl94 on July 16, 2014, 07:57:38 PM
2009 MUTCD requires all new street name signs to be mixed-case (section 2D.05.02). Additionally, the FHWA is mandating that all signs be reflectorized. If NYCDOT is replacing non-reflective or fading signs, they must be mixed-case.
I guess these bureaucrats haven't heard of the X (10th) Amendment.
Governments don't have anything better to waste money on?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 16, 2014, 08:13:44 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 16, 2014, 07:57:38 PM
2009 MUTCD requires all new street name signs to be mixed-case (section 2D.05.02). Additionally, the FHWA is mandating that all signs be reflectorized. If NYCDOT is replacing non-reflective or fading signs, they must be mixed-case.
I guess these bureaucrats haven't heard of the X (10th) Amendment.
The Tenth Amendment doesn't prevent the federal government from putting all kinds of requirements on the states as a condition of federal funding. In practice, no state is going to forgo federal funding, since it would make everything much more expensive and require higher taxes.
At least NYC isn't installing street signs like the ones in downtown Altoona, PA. You can see Altoona's on Google satellite (ground level).
ixnay
In my experience it definitely is, when driving along, easier to quickly identify whether an upcoming street is yours or not if the signs are in mixed case.
That said, some of the benefit of doing this is negated if municipalities insist on continuing to use the same size sign blank, because yes, the lower case letters are smaller.
What really needs to be done away with moreso than all caps street signs is tiny street signs that you have to slow down below the prevailing speed of the road in order to read. And all signalized intersections need to have larger signs mounted on the mast arm or hung from the span wire.
IIRC, the original MUTCD rules required a bigger sign blade to accommodate a larger font size for the legend. I know a lot of towns in Jersey that have replaced their signs have gone to this bigger blade. I am betting NYC isn't going to follow that even if they had to.
What REALLY needs to go away are towns (like Woodbridge NJ) that still use painted concrete posts for street signs. They're low to the ground, vertical, and hard to see when you're in an unfamiliar part of town. I wish they would get with the program and move to the more modern blades finally.
Quote from: storm2k on July 17, 2014, 06:03:39 PM
IIRC, the original MUTCD rules required a bigger sign blade to accommodate a larger font size for the legend. I know a lot of towns in Jersey that have replaced their signs have gone to this bigger blade. I am betting NYC isn't going to follow that even if they had to.
What REALLY needs to go away are towns (like Woodbridge NJ) that still use painted concrete posts for street signs. They're low to the ground, vertical, and hard to see when you're in an unfamiliar part of town. I wish they would get with the program and move to the more modern blades finally.
Impossible to see in rain or at night, too.
Quote from: Alps on July 17, 2014, 06:53:46 PM
Quote from: storm2k on July 17, 2014, 06:03:39 PM
IIRC, the original MUTCD rules required a bigger sign blade to accommodate a larger font size for the legend. I know a lot of towns in Jersey that have replaced their signs have gone to this bigger blade. I am betting NYC isn't going to follow that even if they had to.
What REALLY needs to go away are towns (like Woodbridge NJ) that still use painted concrete posts for street signs. They're low to the ground, vertical, and hard to see when you're in an unfamiliar part of town. I wish they would get with the program and move to the more modern blades finally.
Impossible to see in rain or at night, too.
Don't get me started with those damn vertical things. I'm convinved wealthy areas use them just to keep outsiders away. Hopefully, the FHWA will enforce the reflectivity mandate when it goes into effect so these things can disappear.
As for the sign blades, I'm seeing different sizes everywhere. NYSDOT uses the same large blades they previously had and the names are perfectly legible. As far as counties and towns go, that's a different story. Upstate, Erie and Wyoming counties moved up to the big size used by NYSDOT for their mixed-case signs and I wouldn't be shocked if a few others did as well. On my last trip to the eastern reaches of the state, I saw no new signs not installed by the state, so I can't speak for over there. Genesee County still uses the small size and they're a pain to read at speed. Some towns in Erie County get their signs from the county sign shop, but those who don't are hit or miss.
Quote from: Duke87 on July 17, 2014, 12:28:48 AM
What really needs to be done away with moreso than all caps street signs is tiny street signs that you have to slow down below the prevailing speed of the road in order to read.
And in addition, consistent and predictable placement of the signs. Very often when I'm looking for a street name, it isn't the sign's size that confounds me, but rather that I don't know where to look for it. I know, you'd think it would be obvious, right?
Quote from: Duke87 on July 17, 2014, 12:28:48 AM
In my experience it definitely is, when driving along, easier to quickly identify whether an upcoming street is yours or not if the signs are in mixed case.
That said, some of the benefit of doing this is negated if municipalities insist on continuing to use the same size sign blank, because yes, the lower case letters are smaller.
What really needs to be done away with moreso than all caps street signs is tiny street signs that you have to slow down below the prevailing speed of the road in order to read. And all signalized intersections need to have larger signs mounted on the mast arm or hung from the span wire.
Greenwich CT uses the same size blank as they are switching to mixed-case. Some of the signs are completely unreadable. Not only are the characters narrow depending on how many need to fit on the sign, but their vertical height isn't proportional so you end up with really tall squished lower-cased characters when you have anything other than Main St.
Quote from: Duke87 on July 17, 2014, 12:28:48 AM
In my experience it definitely is, when driving along, easier to quickly identify whether an upcoming street is yours or not if the signs are in mixed case.
That said, some of the benefit of doing this is negated if municipalities insist on continuing to use the same size sign blank, because yes, the lower case letters are smaller.
What really needs to be done away with moreso than all caps street signs is tiny street signs that you have to slow down below the prevailing speed of the road in order to read. And all signalized intersections need to have larger signs mounted on the mast arm or hung from the span wire.
Absolutely. I find mixed case signs harder to read for this reason.
iPhone
You cannot do it in Manhattan with the number signs. Remember mix case does not change the descriptor as it will still be all upper case. So Fifth Avenue will still be "5 AV" as it has been.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 18, 2014, 02:31:04 PM
You cannot do it in Manhattan with the number signs. Remember mix case does not change the descriptor as it will still be all upper case. So Fifth Avenue will still be "5 AV" as it has been.
Is that the spec? In the mixed-cased installations I've seen it's been mixed case all around. For example, Main St and not Main ST. In NYC I've seen the pole mounted blades as 5 AV, but aren't the overhead signs already "5 Av"?
In Orlando we have Deerfield BV on the street signs with the BV in small upper case. That is also the case (speaking of cases) with all the street signs around on both overhead or ground level.
If there was a Main Street in our area it would be Main ST. Unfortunately, I cannot shrink the letters, but that is the case. I have not seen the overheads in Manhattan yet, so I can't say about them yet. However, I did look up my Bronx photos of E. Tremont Avenue and it does show E. Tremont Av. on EB Bruckner Boulevard. Then again those overhead signs are just smaller BGSes or LGSes and not larger street signs as far as fonts go.
The last time I was in New York, everything in Clearview (the newer signs) was mixed-case. A New York Times article with a photo confirms this: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/throughout-the-city-a-new-generation-of-street-signs/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Quote from: roadman65 on July 18, 2014, 02:31:04 PM
You cannot do it in Manhattan with the number signs. Remember mix case does not change the descriptor as it will still be all upper case. So Fifth Avenue will still be "5 AV" as it has been.
no
Quote from: cl94 on July 19, 2014, 08:56:00 PM
The last time I was in New York, everything in Clearview (the newer signs) was mixed-case. A New York Times article with a photo confirms this: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/throughout-the-city-a-new-generation-of-street-signs/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Explain to me why NYCDOT decided to use Clearview. How recent was this? Because if it was fairly recent, then the FHWA interim approval would have already been rescinded.
Quote from: connroadgeek on July 19, 2014, 07:22:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 18, 2014, 02:31:04 PM
You cannot do it in Manhattan with the number signs. Remember mix case does not change the descriptor as it will still be all upper case. So Fifth Avenue will still be "5 AV" as it has been.
Is that the spec? In the mixed-cased installations I've seen it's been mixed case all around. For example, Main St and not Main ST. In NYC I've seen the pole mounted blades as 5 AV, but aren't the overhead signs already "5 Av"?
That's what I've seen walking around Manhattan in cases where there are new signs.
Quote from: Zeffy on July 20, 2014, 05:53:42 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 19, 2014, 08:56:00 PM
The last time I was in New York, everything in Clearview (the newer signs) was mixed-case. A New York Times article with a photo confirms this: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/throughout-the-city-a-new-generation-of-street-signs/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Explain to me why NYCDOT decided to use Clearview. How recent was this? Because if it was fairly recent, then the FHWA interim approval would have already been rescinded.
They started a few years ago. Don't know the exact year, but I think they started using Clearview around the time of the lowercase mandate.
Philly's been using Clearview on its street blade signs even before the mixed-case rule took effect.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 10:38:04 AM
Philly's been using Clearview on its street blade signs even before the mixed-case rule took effect.
I think Philly street signs are easier to read. At least none that I know of are sun bleached, as opposed to several in NYC.
Quote from: leroys73 on July 16, 2014, 09:00:08 PM
Governments don't have anything better to waste money on?
Well, they could blow it on something utterly pointless like
actual road improvements. :-P
[SARCASTIC MODE OFF.]
So when will overheard signs in Clearview start appearing on... the Clearview Expressway? ;-)
And isn't Clearview similar to the font used on European road signs?
ixnay
Quote from: ixnay on August 28, 2014, 10:18:13 PM
So when will overheard signs in Clearview start appearing on... the Clearview Expressway? ;-)
And isn't Clearview similar to the font used on European road signs?
ixnay
Unless NYSDOT starts using it in force (pretty unlikely), never going to happen. Most sections of Interstate highway are state-maintained, along with a several of the limited-access parkways. This includes the Clearview (except for the bridge, which is TBTA).
Quote from: ixnay on August 28, 2014, 10:18:13 PMisn't Clearview similar to the font used on European road signs?
I don't think it is, but YMMV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearview_(typeface)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_European_road_signs#Different_typefaces_in_texts