AARoads Forum

At one time people all used to know the roads a lot better than they do now.  No EXIT ONLY or RIGHT LANE MUST EXIT signs were needed as most knew of a lane dropping to ramps without being told.  People who did not own cars, knew exactly where places were.  Every person in a gas station knew how to give directions out.  Cab drivers knew how to take you around without asking a local on the street to where the destination of theirs was.

Only us road geeks seem to know about the roads anymore, and we get flack for not having a life because we know even what was once common sense, now wasting our worries.  Has the human race gotten more ignorant over the past few decades?  I mean when I grew up in the seventies, everyone knew their whole community and how to get around.  Now I have people who live in Orlando with me who do not even know where other nearby cities are including the next door suburbs.

What ever happened to people knowing the roads?

I think Mapquest, Google Maps, and GPS happened. Why bother learning about the roads themselves when you can have a machine print out the directions for you?

But I totally understand what you're saying. I think it's just another example of the dumbing down of society and how technology makes us lazy.  :no:

Someone else beat me to the punch but I'll post anyway.

One word answer: technology.

While such can be beneficial, it's gotten to a point now that people treat such like it's their life-support or dare I say it their drug.  They'll say, "I don't need to know such, my *insert Techo-gadget of choice here* will determine that for me".  And this ignorance is not just on the younger generation; I've seen similar, sadly, happen with people my age (48) and older when they utilize these devices more and more.

Similar can be said regarding people use to remembering phone numbers.  Before Speed-Dial and cell phone contact lists; people actually had to constantly remember various phone numbers.  Truth be told, I still remember most older phone number contacts (pre-cell phone) better than more recent contact numbers (post-cell phone).

Another reason (& a more overtly political one) is the continuing of the Dumbing-Down of America that's taken place over the last 2 to 3 decades.  Schools today seem to either seldom or no longer teach either geography nor critical thinking anymore.  Like it or not, that's a big part of the problem right there.

You're overstating the case.  People knew lane drops were coming up without an "exit only" sign?  That's ridiculous.

At the risk of fueling too much back-in-my-day-ism, people have transitioned to different skill sets.  How many people can skillfully replace a faucet or make bread from scratch?  These were basic life skills, once.  What you describe is neither unique nor dire, though.  People live differently today.

Whatever happened to predictability? the milkman, the paperboy, evening TV?

I hate to admit, but you seem to have stumbled on to something there with "dumbing down."  Just recently I heard someone call in to a show, and actually met someone who had no idea what happened during World War II.  The caller said that he ran into someone who did not know about the fact that the Bombing of Pearl Harbor started the war, nor knew the even the event at all, along with how the war ended with us using nukes on two Japanese cities. The host said that either the pupil was not paying attention in school or our current education system is not teaching major events in American History.  It does make one think though about this after hearing this caller.

My take is that this world has gone too political and with the invention of technology it has caused us not to think for ourselves anymore.  When I was growing up party names were only names and when people discussed politics we judged the person himself and not the parties.  We actually had to wait till we saw our friends in person to converse, as now you have texting where we do it constantly.  We went to work and never snuck into corners to use our phones like we do now.  We kept our private lives private and at work we interacted with our jobs and coworkers and that was how it was done.  We learned a lot from our chats with coworkers and sometimes even customers.

You may be right there.

I am 14 and I am on technology a good bit, but I know loads about roads and definitely more than most people. Once I get a car and start driving there's no way I'm getting lost. My 16 year old cousin gets lost around town but I would be able to drive my way around the Atlanta Metro Area without getting lost (which I don't even live in, but I'm close). I still wouldn't get lost driving around 600 miles south of where I live. I love stuff like Google Maps but I still know my stuff. In early elementary school I was never in gifted, but I knew all the capitols long before the gifted people did. The teachers were amazed. People definitely need to know about the roads, not just roadgeeks.

I'd say the points PHLBOS makes extend also to cashiers making change. You ever see a cashier at a fast-food place or similar trying to make change when for whatever reason the cash register malfunctions? They often can't do it. They rely completely on the machine calculating the change for them. (If I pay cash, more often than not I've calculated the change in my head before the cashier has even punched in the amount of money.)

I think the "technology" answer is part of the issue. I've found it's not all that unusual for businesses in more rural areas to tell you to ignore your navigation device's directions, often because the device will use a more direct route that uses undesirable roads. (Example: Linden Vineyards south of Linden, Virginia, tells you to ignore your device if you're coming from the east because many of them send you over a switchbacked gravel road that winds up taking longer than the paved road further west even though the paved road is further distance-wise.) Yet people still show up grumbling about their sat-nav directions.

Another thing I think might factor in is higher gas prices and heavier traffic. I think one reason people used to know the roads better is that even into the early 1980s it still wasn't unusual for families to go for a "Sunday drive," whether just an aimless drive or one with a specific destination in mind. When you went out wandering around, you'd find new roads and you might remember them if they prove useful. The higher cost of gas these days (regardless of whether it's "real" in proportion to your income or just perceived) is a serious deterrent. So is traffic, coupled with the expanding suburbs (both factors obviously related to each other)–if it takes an hour to get out into the countryside when it used to take 20 minutes, that's got to be a deterrent, and if people are less-inclined to go out driving simply for pleasure, exploring the roads, I think they'll be less likely to know the roads.

Highway expansion might be another factor, too. Invariably people gravitate to the bigger highways. Look at how many people get flummoxed on a longer drive if the route takes them off the Interstate. I think when "the big roads" come through, people tend just to default to those (maybe for convenience, maybe because they don't know another route, maybe because they PERCEIVE them as faster) and they tend to overlook the other routes. It astonishes me how many newer residents of Northern Virginia–I've lived here since 1974–only know one or two ways to get anywhere. I guess that's good for me that they don't know all the back routes!

PHLBOS's point about phone numbers makes me laugh ruefully because a few weeks ago it occurred to me that I know the phone number for the flooring company Luna better than I know my own wife's work phone number, even though I have never called Luna, don't ever plan to, and have never done business with them. But I hear their annoying jingle pretty much every night because they run commercials during Washington Nationals TV broadcasts and their jingle consists of their phone number (similar to "Empire Today," who have been around for years). I'd have to stop and think to try to remember my wife's work number, in part because she usually calls me rather than the other way around (and when she does, the number on the caller ID is different from her direct-dial number).

Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2014, 09:35:46 AM
....

Only us road geeks seem to know about the roads anymore, and we get flack for not having a life because we know even what was once common sense, now wasting our worries. ....

What amuses me about this is that the same people who ridicule you for knowing the roads and knowing umpteen different ways everywhere are the first ones to call you looking for an alternate route when they get stuck in traffic. My brother once called me asking for help because he was stuck due to an overturned truck somewhere. I wanted to say, "Hey, why are you calling me? I thought it was enough to know one route to get everywhere. You know your one route because you're using it now." (I didn't, but I wanted to.)

I disagree as well about exit onlys and lane drops.  They simply weren't signed as well in the past.  It's impossible to tell a lane just exits without being told.

In many cases, there's just more out there to see and do.

Take your gas station attendant example.  The person working there didn't graduate college with a degree in finding things.  You are talking to an average, everyday Jane or Joe that may not even live in the local area.  If you ask them how to get to one of the most popular attractions or hotels in the area, they can probably get you there.  If you ask them how to get to a lesser known attraction you found on the internet, chances are that gas station person isn't aware of the lesser known attraction either. 

As far as WW II...well, while I don't know what age you are, that may have been more recent history when you were in school.  Remember...WWII happened 70 or so years ago now.  In the past few decades, you have 9/11, Iraq War, Afghanistan, Persian Gulf War, and several dozen other wars.  Or, in other words - there's more history to cover.  WWII was, quite frankly, a long time ago.  It's what people studied 30 years ago.  Today, they will study the wars that happened within the past 30 years.

I don't even really remember World War II being a big topic when I was in school, though everyone knew a lot about it. I always found in history classes the teachers spent way too much time on the colonial era and then had to rush to get through other things (an exception being in fourth grade Virginia history because the War Between the States is such an important part of Virginia history).

I think the high-school class that spent the most time on World War II was an elective class I took my senior year, the AP modern European history class. (I graduated from high school in 1991.)

Well I can contest to the part about suburbs being farther now time wise then they once were.  I moved to South Orlando in 1990 when it took five to ten minuets to go from what is now Southchase to the Florida Mall.  Now it can take 20-25 minuets because of the sprawl between Orlando and Kissimmee.  US 17, 92, & 441 was semi rural with few lights and only four lanes.  Now its very close to urban with many signals, and six lanes still not enough to handle the increase in traffic. Mind you that John Young Parkway that is nearby is also six lanes where you would figure that the drive from Orlando to Kissimmee should be more of a picnic than it was with only one four lane highway in 1990 between those two points.  However, sprawl brings more motorists and now both Orlando and Kissimmee are one continuous metro area where as before you had rural areas in between and were once both two different distinct urban areas.

Bottom line is the fact that what people once did conveniently is not so much anymore.  What was once close is not at all close.  Gas prices going up too added to that making frequent trips less frequent or none at all now to what you once did daily.  I used to go to the beach a lot, but now I am lucky if I get to it once a year.

When I went to Camden a few weeks ago, there was a bunch of roads closed for the Puerto Rican Day Parade in the city. Upon leaving the Aquarium, I decided to get a drink before I drove home (because it was really hot out), so I purchased one from a hot dog stand vendor outside the Aquarium. I wasn't an experienced Camden-driver before, so I asked "do you know how to get back to 676 from here, since half of the roads were closed?" God damn, that man knew his stuff. He gave me perfect directions, as if he was holding a map. He even remarked Broadway Street turned in to I-676 practically. It's the only time I really needed directions, but we can't all memorize cities that you won't visit more than once or twice a year, right?

It's also easy to generalize an entire class of people.  10,000 motorists can successfully find their way someplace, but if one person is lost, we tend to generalize the entire group of motorists as people that can't find their way either.

It also works the other way...most people in here think of themselves as people that know the roads quite well.  But reflect on nearly any roadmeet, and guaranteed someone got lost! :-)

When I first started driving last year (I'm not a teenager, but it's a long story), this coincided with a major job search, where I often had to drive to unfamiliar places (come to think of it, just about any place was unfamiliar then), my father went with me to a few places the weekend before the interview, and made me memorize every lane change I had to make. Guess what? I was rearended at one of these places because I slowed down looking for my left turn (I did have the GPS on and it didn't help because there were many left turns into businesses on that road).

Since then, I stopped memorizing unfamiliar routes. Not that I stopped looking them up ahead of time and remembering approximate directions, but no more memorizing every lane change. I use the GPS on unfamiliar routes, but even when I don't, I often don't remember precisely whether a given exit is a right or left exit (I'm talking freeways here), for example. I've never missed an exit because of not knowing that. When I do miss an exit, it never happens more than once. I've missed 2 exits so far, both on roads I know extremely well, both because I was passing another car. On one I had to make two U-turns, losing a grand total of 5 minutes. On the other I was punished with cheaper gas. Plus I found out you can use a particular service area as an exit.

I think I'm a pretty typical driver now.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
I'd say the points PHLBOS makes extend also to cashiers making change. You ever see a cashier at a fast-food place or similar trying to make change when for whatever reason the cash register malfunctions? They often can't do it. They rely completely on the machine calculating the change for them. (If I pay cash, more often than not I've calculated the change in my head before the cashier has even punched in the amount of money.)

I've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2014, 10:42:12 AM
As far as WW II...well, while I don't know what age you are, that may have been more recent history when you were in school.  Remember...WWII happened 70 or so years ago now.  In the past few decades, you have 9/11, Iraq War, Afghanistan, Persian Gulf War, and several dozen other wars.  Or, in other words - there's more history to cover.  WWII was, quite frankly, a long time ago.  It's what people studied 30 years ago.  Today, they will study the wars that happened within the past 30 years.

I agree completely. I learned a lot more about WWII then about WWI because at the time it had been 40 years since WWII and 70 years since WWI. WWII and its aftermath was also still somewhat relevant because the Berlin Wall was still up and we were in the midst of the Cold War.

Quote from: Zeffy on July 17, 2014, 10:55:40 AM
When I went to Camden a few weeks ago, there was a bunch of roads closed for the Puerto Rican Day Parade in the city. Upon leaving the Aquarium, I decided to get a drink before I drove home (because it was really hot out), so I purchased one from a hot dog stand vendor outside the Aquarium. I wasn't an experienced Camden-driver before, so I asked "do you know how to get back to 676 from here, since half of the roads were closed?" God damn, that man knew his stuff. He gave me perfect directions, as if he was holding a map. He even remarked Broadway Street turned in to I-676 practically. It's the only time I really needed directions, but we can't all memorize cities that you won't visit more than once or twice a year, right?

There is no Broadway Street in Camden. It's just Broadway. Sorry, but this redundancy thing a pet peeve of mine, and I know places where actual Broadway Streets exist, so I'm happy Camden got it right.

Quote from: bzakharin on July 17, 2014, 11:20:04 AM
There is no Broadway Street in Camden. It's just Broadway. Sorry, but this redundancy thing a pet peeve of mine, and I know places where actual Broadway Streets exist, so I'm happy Camden got it right.

Yeah, I see that now. I love it how every other street in the city has a suffix except for Broadway...

Quote from: spooky on July 17, 2014, 11:16:33 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2014, 10:39:31 AM
I'd say the points PHLBOS makes extend also to cashiers making change. You ever see a cashier at a fast-food place or similar trying to make change when for whatever reason the cash register malfunctions? They often can't do it. They rely completely on the machine calculating the change for them. (If I pay cash, more often than not I've calculated the change in my head before the cashier has even punched in the amount of money.)

I've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

....

Very true. I've had that happen as well, and on at least one occasion my explanation got me nowhere and the guy insisted on giving me back the amount in excess of the round dollar amount before he rang the transaction (so if it were $4.56 and I gave him $5.06, he insisted on giving me back the 6¢, THEN ringing the $5.00 sale, then counting out 44¢ in change to give me), even after I pointed out to him that if he rang $5.06 he could just give me back 50¢ and it'd be easier for him. "You only owe $4.56, so I don't need this 6¢."  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

That sort of thing is one of several reasons why prefer the automated check-out lane at the grocery store!

20 years ago, when there was no Street View and I was traveling in an area for the first time, how would I know that there was a lane drop without signage? I wouldn't.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 17, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
20 years ago, when there was no Street View and I was traveling in an area for the first time, how would I know that there was a lane drop without signage? I wouldn't.

Now that there's street view, you check all the lanes ahead of time?

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 17, 2014, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 17, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
20 years ago, when there was no Street View and I was traveling in an area for the first time, how would I know that there was a lane drop without signage? I wouldn't.

Now that there's street view, you check all the lanes ahead of time?

I think that the singling out of lane dropping signs was a bit erroneous. I've never seen a map that would indicate them either so I'm not sure how you would know that a lane dropped unless you've been in the area before.

And GPS are most helpful when you already know the route and just want something to make sure you're on track. I would NEVER EVER EVER use them a primary means of navigation.

One of the things I dislike about GPSs and online maps is that it'll get you to the front door of the destination.  Unfortunately, people frown upon driving your vehicle thru the front door.

Out of the way directions to the front door seems to hold true especially on roads with medians or barriers.  If I follow the GPS blindly, many times they route me up to the next intersection, make a u-turn, and backtrack to the destination.  Yet, the destination was on the corner of the previous intersection, where I could've made a simple left turn and entered the driveway via that side street.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2014, 10:58:17 AM
It's also easy to generalize an entire class of people.  10,000 motorists can successfully find their way someplace, but if one person is lost, we tend to generalize the entire group of motorists as people that can't find their way either.

Pretty much this - when I'm on a job site, I'll ask the locals about a good place to eat, and more often than not, they'll give good or even great directions. I'll re-check on my computer or map if the directions made no sense or weren't clear. Granted, I'm usually in a site in the automotive industry, so these are folks who probably enjoy driving somewhat. For folks that find driving to be a chore and a daily hassle, you'd probably get a less enthusiastic response, from a roadgeek's perspective.

The oversight of one careless doofus does not a society make. Too often this board relates every GPS error as the decline of civilization - we're not exactly 15th Century sailors nor equipping ourselves for a South Pole "expotition". We're a bunch of folks with varying amounts of interest in many things involving routes and it's a pretty specific interest with a tiny overall percentage of fans.

I'll be honest, I don't spend much time checking out every detail of an area until right before I might visit it. Personally, I don't have enough time in my day to research a city or route in which I have no immediate business nor interest in. Even then, there's no guarantee I'm not going miss a light, have to make a U-turn, miss an exit, go left instead of right at the fork (although sometimes these are intentionally curious reasons or other distractions).

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 17, 2014, 12:58:51 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 17, 2014, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 17, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
20 years ago, when there was no Street View and I was traveling in an area for the first time, how would I know that there was a lane drop without signage? I wouldn't.

Now that there's street view, you check all the lanes ahead of time?

I think that the singling out of lane dropping signs was a bit erroneous. I've never seen a map that would indicate them either so I'm not sure how you would know that a lane dropped unless you've been in the area before.

And GPS are most helpful when you already know the route and just want something to make sure you're on track. I would NEVER EVER EVER use them a primary means of navigation.

GPSs are most useful IMO for last-mile navigation in unfamiliar urban/suburban areas where street names and address numbers are poorly marked, if at all.

Quote from: realjd on July 17, 2014, 01:23:45 PM
GPSs are most useful IMO for last-mile navigation in unfamiliar urban/suburban areas where street names and address numbers are poorly marked, if at all.

I kind of like having the display giving the distance and estimated time to my destination when I'm on a long drive or when I need to be somewhere by a particular time and it's not somewhere I go on a regular basis.

Quote from: realjd on July 17, 2014, 01:23:45 PM

GPSs are most useful IMO for last-mile navigation in unfamiliar urban/suburban areas where street names and address numbers are poorly marked, if at all.

indeed.  I can probably get to any metro area in the US by memory; any town or city neighborhood by looking at a map ... but I'm definitely gonna need the last few turns to navigate through Happie Labyrinthe Estates.

I have similar lamentations about people knowing directions, and other things like knowing how to change a tire, change the oil, fix a leaky faucet, etc.  It's just old age setting in, and you don't see it until it happens to you.

I don't know how to use a washboard, bake bread, or grow corn.  I don't know how to kill and butcher an animal or make my own clothes.  We have people and machines to do those things these days, so they're no longer needed skills.  I don't feel stupid for not knowing how to grow tomatoes.  We can get tomatoes at any time of year, cheaply and with no effort; it sounds to me like we've made progress as a result of being smart.

I'm reminded of Albert Einstein, who (according to what I've read) didn't like to waste space in his mind remembering information that's useless or can be written down.  Freed from menial tasks, such as remembering telephone numbers or what the Fourteenth Amendment says, the mind can become less mechanized and more creative, finding better solutions to problems and more ways of understanding things.

Science, technology, economies, governments, lifestyles - things always get better, not always in a straight line and with plenty of bumps, but always moving upward.  We have more wealth, more convenience, more comfort, more safety, more respect for people's rights than ever before.  And at each step of the way, the old people lamented over what was lost.  What we lost is valuable, because it's what enabled us to make progress, but giving up progress and the betterment of lives for the sake of holding on to old things is foolish.  How much modern comfort and convenience would you give up for the sake of knowing how to farm?

It is not a debate on whether the old generation is better than the new one, just wondering why people now seem to know less about the roads then they did years ago even when most people never drove before or could not drive.

Also, lane drops without signs were common on US 1 in Woodbridge and Elizabeth where the old 1932 bridges would be four lanes so the six lane arterial would lose one lane each way at the crossings.  SB US 1 & 9 at the Elizabeth Avenue exit never had any signs saying that the right lane exited exclusively when I lived there back in the 70,s and 80's.  Yet I never saw any last minuet lane changes where someone would surprisingly make an unsafe maneuver when he discovered that he was going someplace else.  All drivers moved over ahead of time as they payed close attention to the road ahead or new every configuration ahead of time of their daily drives.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2014, 10:49:30 AM
Well I can contest to the part about suburbs being farther now time wise then they once were.  I moved to South Orlando in 1990 when it took five to ten minuets to go from what is now Southchase to the Florida Mall.  Now it can take 20-25 minuets because of the sprawl between Orlando and Kissimmee.  US 17, 92, & 441 was semi rural with few lights and only four lanes.  Now its very close to urban with many signals, and six lanes still not enough to handle the increase in traffic. Mind you that John Young Parkway that is nearby is also six lanes where you would figure that the drive from Orlando to Kissimmee should be more of a picnic than it was with only one four lane highway in 1990 between those two points.  However, sprawl brings more motorists and now both Orlando and Kissimmee are one continuous metro area where as before you had rural areas in between and were once both two different distinct urban areas.

Bottom line is the fact that what people once did conveniently is not so much anymore.  What was once close is not at all close.  Gas prices going up too added to that making frequent trips less frequent or none at all now to what you once did daily.  I used to go to the beach a lot, but now I am lucky if I get to it once a year.

I think I remeber that Orange Blossom Trail was two lanes back in the 80's.  I seem to remember that it was rural between Orlando and Kissimmee.  I wonder if that is correct.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 17, 2014, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 17, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
20 years ago, when there was no Street View and I was traveling in an area for the first time, how would I know that there was a lane drop without signage? I wouldn't.

Now that there's street view, you check all the lanes ahead of time?

No, although I have checked out a few complicated exits in the past before I drove through them, because I'm one of those who likes to be in the correct lane well ahead of time.

I just thought the assertion that people would automatically know where a lane drop occurs without signage warning of such was ridiculous. Signs are meant to guide drivers who are unfamiliar with the area. You could remove every sign from a number of roads in my general area, and I could still get to where I needed to be. Remove all the signs from a road in California, where I've never been before, and I wouldn't know where to turn or whether a curve is unsafe at the speed I'm traveling and I'd need to slow down in advance of it.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2014, 10:45:34 AM
I don't even really remember World War II being a big topic when I was in school, though everyone knew a lot about it. I always found in history classes the teachers spent way too much time on the colonial era and then had to rush to get through other things (an exception being in fourth grade Virginia history because the War Between the States is such an important part of Virginia history).

Your experience mirrors mine. Most history classes I took had the world starting in 1492 and ending sometime during the Gilded Age. Very seldom was the 20th century, or anything having to do with the world prior to America's discovery by the West, covered at all. And this was the same at all grade levels; year after year we covered the same things. World War II was mostly covered by English class due to the works of Anne Frank and Elie Wiesel.

I did have one teacher in high school (actually the head football coach, but of all the dual coach/teachers out there, he was the best at teaching) design his own unit around the Kennedy assassination, primarily because I think he personally found it an interesting subject. He presented the evidence for and against the official account of events and called on us to decide whether or not we thought Oswald acted alone. In prior years he had arranged for a field trip down to Dallas to visit the book depository, Dealey Plaza and the grassy knoll, which would have been a fantastic experience, but for whatever reason that wasn't done my year.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 18, 2014, 12:21:02 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2014, 10:45:34 AM
I don't even really remember World War II being a big topic when I was in school, though everyone knew a lot about it. I always found in history classes the teachers spent way too much time on the colonial era and then had to rush to get through other things (an exception being in fourth grade Virginia history because the War Between the States is such an important part of Virginia history).

Your experience mirrors mine. Most history classes I took had the world starting in 1492 and ending sometime during the Gilded Age. Very seldom was the 20th century, or anything having to do with the world prior to America's discovery by the West, covered at all. And this was the same at all grade levels; year after year we covered the same things. World War II was mostly covered by English class due to the works of Anne Frank and Elie Wiesel.

I did have one teacher in high school (actually the head football coach, but of all the dual coach/teachers out there, he was the best at teaching) design his own unit around the Kennedy assassination, primarily because I think he personally found it an interesting subject. He presented the evidence for and against the official account of events and called on us to decide whether or not we thought Oswald acted alone. In prior years he had arranged for a field trip down to Dallas to visit the book depository, Dealey Plaza and the grassy knoll, which would have been a fantastic experience, but for whatever reason that wasn't done my year.

They teach history backwards.  Kids would get it–the ones paying attention, anyway–if they started with now, and worked back to explain how now happened.

We had no end of WWII vets around.  It seemed unthinkable that would ever not be the case, there were so many.  Now it seems hard to make sense at all of having known WWI survivors at all.  They fought for, with, and against Hapsburgs and Ottoman Turks, for chrissakes, that were losing their hold on 750 years of rule, and some new things called Germany and Italy that were about 40 years old.

I have to agree that technology has made things so that people don't know their roads, and that suburban sprawl has set it up so that if one were to know all the roads, they'd have to know a lot more than they would have 20 years ago (or however many years ago you want to say).  But nobody here, that I noticed, has mentioned that people move from one metro area to another often in the USA.  People just don't live where they grew up at as much as they used to.  If you move to an area when you are in your 20's, it's a lot harder to know all the roads than if you lived there all your life.   I could probably tell you better where some streets are in Cottage Grove, MN (where I lived until I was 15) than some streets near me here in Papillion, NE which are probably less than a mile away.  It's sad and somewhat pathetic, but it's not like I drive down every street here all the time.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2014, 09:35:46 AMNo EXIT ONLY or RIGHT LANE MUST EXIT signs were needed as most knew of a lane dropping to ramps without being told

I have to disagree with you regarding the above-point.  Such signage very likely existed back then in one form or another but there was no uniform set standard for such (i.e. not fully/completely addressed in older versions of MUTCD).  So states had their own individual approaches for such signage.

As for more people knowing how to properly navigate through areas & situations that had insufficient EXIT ONLY/LEFT (RIGHT) LANE MUST EXIT signage is concerned; unless you have the data source(s) to back up that claim, your earlier-stated notions/assertions are just opinions.

QuoteI've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

One time I went to a c-store and bought a soda after filling my tank.  I think it came out to $.97 and I handed the girl a dollar and two cents expecting a nickel back.  I wish I had a camera phone back then to record the sheer look of horror on her face.  She stood there dumbfounded, finally pushed the pennies back to me, and gave me 3 cents change.  I was as nice as could be and didn't say anything to her, but I was cringing inside.

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 18, 2014, 08:52:56 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 17, 2014, 09:35:46 AMNo EXIT ONLY or RIGHT LANE MUST EXIT signs were needed as most knew of a lane dropping to ramps without being told

I have to disagree with you regarding the above-point.  Such signage very likely existed back then in one form or another but there was no uniform set standard for such (i.e. not fully/completely addressed in older versions of MUTCD).  So states had their own individual approaches for such signage.

As for more people knowing how to properly navigate through areas & situations that had insufficient EXIT ONLY/LEFT (RIGHT) LANE MUST EXIT signage is concerned; unless you have the data source(s) to back up that claim, your earlier-stated notions/assertions are just opinions.

Well in Elizabeth and Woodbridge on US 1 no signs did exist at one time, as it most likely was when no traffic was on the road (or the amount of today anyway) when all that originally happened.  Remember there were no dotted lines required for lane drops until the 80's yet now they are around everywhere.   Something starts someplace at some time, so the EXIT ONLY or MUST EXIT had to as well.

The point made here about people never moved as much before in the past where people lived their whole lives in the same metro areas or regions, so people knew the roads and lane configurations like the back of their own hands.  Now moving around makes things so foreign to everyone and also the constant change of the roads due to expansion as well creates confusion.  DandyDan may have the best theory in his reply.

I recall Delaware's signs used to say "MUST EXIT" rather than "EXIT ONLY" (I believe some still do, though I haven't been through Delaware in a while). I always liked that wording.

You can have all the dotted lines, the overhead warnings, the lane ends, and still drivers will be surprised that the lane they are in ends or defaults to the exit ramp, including truckers!  I cannot tell you how many times I used to see truckers make a last minuet lane change on I-287 in Edison, NJ where the NB right lane at NJ 27 SB exit defaulted onto the ramp.  This was back in the 80's where it was a common thing believed to be known that all truckers knew all the roads and interstate system.  And YES they had overhead EXIT ONLY signs even when NJDOT had the diagramical guides on I-287 between I-78 and the NJT!

Quote from: DandyDan on July 18, 2014, 08:25:14 AM
I could probably tell you better where some streets are in Cottage Grove, MN (where I lived until I was 15) than some streets near me here in Papillion, NE which are probably less than a mile away.  It's sad and somewhat pathetic, but it's not like I drive down every street here all the time.

I can tell you the streets in my neighborhood where I grew up whether they existed or not (some were paper streets that were never built), but today, where I have lived for 13 years since being married, I still forget the name of the cross street at the end of my road, 3 houses away.

When you are younger, you learn the streets well because you ride around on a bicycle a lot, and you don't have all the worries of an adult. Riding a bicycle or walking allows you to pay attention to details that you would not notice while driving, because you are moving slower, and you don't have to focus your attention on driving.

Quote from: kurumi on July 18, 2014, 11:07:29 AM

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

Not this person in southwestern Virginia:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/10174716143_0242b07da9_z.jpg)

Quote from: kurumi on July 18, 2014, 11:07:29 AM

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

I would not know Nickelback if I heard them.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 02:01:42 PM

Quote from: kurumi on July 18, 2014, 11:07:29 AM

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

I would not know Nickelback if I heard them.

Neither would I.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2014, 02:53:01 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 02:01:42 PM

Quote from: kurumi on July 18, 2014, 11:07:29 AM

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

I would not know Nickelback if I heard them.

Neither would I.

So lucky

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM

QuoteI've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

One time I went to a c-store and bought a soda after filling my tank.  I think it came out to $.97 and I handed the girl a dollar and two cents expecting a nickel back.  I wish I had a camera phone back then to record the sheer look of horror on her face.  She stood there dumbfounded, finally pushed the pennies back to me, and gave me 3 cents change.  I was as nice as could be and didn't say anything to her, but I was cringing inside.

Been there - done that.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 18, 2014, 03:18:17 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2014, 02:53:01 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 02:01:42 PM

Quote from: kurumi on July 18, 2014, 11:07:29 AM

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
... nickel back ... sheer look of horror on her face ... cringing inside.

No surprise; everyone hates Nickelback

I would not know Nickelback if I heard them.

Neither would I.

So lucky

That's why there's YouTube.  So one can quickly check who or what someone's talking about... if one so dares.

Not reading anything up to this point (I saw "Nickelback" and started running)...but here's my thought:

There are two minor societal changes that I believe contribute to the lack of interest in roads in modern times:

1) Cycling is the new way of getting around -- if you drive a car, you either hate mother earth or you're just a fat loser. (NOT MY OPINION)

2) At least in my area, roads don't really have names anymore. Most streets are numbered (for postal reasons, of course). This makes memorizing roads less fun/less of a game.

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM

QuoteI've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

One time I went to a c-store and bought a soda after filling my tank.  I think it came out to $.97 and I handed the girl a dollar and two cents expecting a nickel back.  I wish I had a camera phone back then to record the sheer look of horror on her face.  She stood there dumbfounded, finally pushed the pennies back to me, and gave me 3 cents change.  I was as nice as could be and didn't say anything to her, but I was cringing inside.

What I hate is the person in front of me in line is taking 5 minutes to hunt down the two pennies in his pocket/her purse in order to get that nickel in return, instead of just taking the 3 pennies.

Nearly everyone goes to the register to check out, and refuses to even touch their wallets until the order is rung up.  Seriously...they knew they were going to have to pay.  And, oh, look, they pull out a $20 bill.  For a $1 item.  I don't care about that in general - what I care about is that they could've had that $20 in hand already, instead of waiting for the item to be rung up before even touching their wallet.  So don't dare go "Oh, wait, I think I may have the change also"...

BTW, congestion at toll plazas?  Yeah...this is one of the reasons why. 

Quote from: jake on July 18, 2014, 03:57:57 PM
1) Cycling is the new way of getting around -- if you drive a car, you either hate mother earth or you're just a fat loser.

you must not have graduated college yet.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 18, 2014, 04:57:20 PM

Quote from: jake on July 18, 2014, 03:57:57 PM
1) Cycling is the new way of getting around -- if you drive a car, you either hate mother earth or you're just a fat loser.

you must not have graduated college yet.

Starting my junior year in September.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2014, 04:01:49 PM
What I hate is the person in front of me in line is taking 5 minutes to hunt down the two pennies in his pocket/her purse in order to get that nickel in return, instead of just taking the 3 pennies.

Nearly everyone goes to the register to check out, and refuses to even touch their wallets until the order is rung up.  Seriously...they knew they were going to have to pay.  And, oh, look, they pull out a $20 bill.  For a $1 item.  I don't care about that in general - what I care about is that they could've had that $20 in hand already, instead of waiting for the item to be rung up before even touching their wallet.  So don't dare go "Oh, wait, I think I may have the change also"...

BTW, congestion at toll plazas?  Yeah...this is one of the reasons why. 

I always hate it when I get stuck behind a woman–not trying to stereotype, but it's always a woman doing this–who wants to pay by check. She could very easily fill in the date and the name of the store, sign the check, and fill in her check register while the cashier is ringing it up, then fill in the amount at the end. Never happens. They always wait until the cashier is done before they even start looking for the checkbook in their gargantuan pocketbooks, much less filling in the check. Perhaps this is a function of most check-writers I see these days being little old ladies who memorize the prices of every item they buy and so watch the checkout display like hawks to harp on even a 1¢ discrepancy.

As I said before, it's one reason why I prefer the self-checkout at the grocery store, but I go a step further. The store nearest my house has a self-scanner device, so I scan all the items as I go and bag them directly in the cart. Makes it a whole lot faster when I get to the checkout because I just scan the "end of order" barcode, pay (scanning any coupons if needed), and go. One old lady once told me I'm stupid for doing that because the cashiers will bag your groceries for you. I looked at her and said, more or less, "Wait, you're telling me I'm stupid, but you're loading up your grocery cart so you can go up front and unload your cart onto a belt so a cashier can rearrange your groceries and put them all back into your cart again?"

Quote from: BamaZeus on July 18, 2014, 11:00:09 AM

QuoteI've had countless examples where I confused a cashier by giving change in anticipation of the change I would get in return.

Example: Total comes to $4.87. I give the cashier $5.02, in anticipation of getting a nickel and a dime back instead of a dime and three pennies. The cashier looks puzzled and says "it was $4.87" and then I explain to them the change they're supposed to give back to me. I've said that there will come a day when fast food places will go out of business, because they attract the stupidest people, and that class of people is too stupid to work at a fast food place.

One time I went to a c-store and bought a soda after filling my tank.  I think it came out to $.97 and I handed the girl a dollar and two cents expecting a nickel back.  I wish I had a camera phone back then to record the sheer look of horror on her face.  She stood there dumbfounded, finally pushed the pennies back to me, and gave me 3 cents change.  I was as nice as could be and didn't say anything to her, but I was cringing inside.

A few years ago I made a $4.75 purchase at a bowling alley snack bar. I paid with a $5 bill. The cashier said "This'll take just a minute; my calculator broke". She then calculated my change with a pencil and paper and gave me 35 cents back.

Quote from: mhh on July 18, 2014, 06:19:06 PM
A few years ago I made a $4.75 purchase at a bowling alley snack bar. I paid with a $5 bill. The cashier said "This'll take just a minute; my calculator broke". She then calculated my change with a pencil and paper and gave me 35 cents back.

:rofl: :rofl:

I've given money back on occasion when I've been given too much change, mainly because I remember when I worked retail one summer during college the store would hold the cashiers responsible for shortages in the till.

(Edited because my iPad changed "till" to "toll.")

So, tonight, I stopped at a KFC.  Order came to $7.27. I just so happened to have 2 pennies in my pocket, so I handed the cashier $8.02.

Now, doing this, I was absolutely thinking of this thread.  And I was so ready to come on here to tell you that the cashier at KFC was better than the cashiers that some of you those experienced.  Anyway, back to the story...

She takes the $8.02.  She yells (almost silently) that she needs quarters, so she starts reaching for the dimes.  Ugh.   And then, after counting 7 dimes, she reaches for the...pennies.  3 of them.  And hands me back 73 cents. 

So, those 2 pennies I gave her? She never typed it into the register as $8.02.  She only typed in $8.00. She just put them in the register. I said I gave her the 2 cents, and her response was that the order was $7.27 so I didn't need them.

Oh...she also typed in the order wrong as well (I wanted Original...she typed in Extra Crispy).  Luckily the order delivery person called out the exact order, so I was able to catch that at that time.

Sigh.

(Several customers later, as I left, she called back for the quarters again.  She was down to just a few dimes and pennies.

I had a guy back in the days when Arco had stations in New Jersey.  As we all know that NJ still has full service gasoline and will till the end of the universe, but that is a different story, but the bill came to 11 bucks.  I had a twenty on me along with a single.  I handed the guy total of twenty one dollars so I could receive a ten spot back.  He actually thought I was giving him a gratuity and gave me nine bucks back.

This was in 1985 when I worked in Somerset en route to work via I-287 getting gas on Stelton Road at the I-287 interchange, so I can feel for you guys now.

Throwing extra coins at a cashier for the sake of getting a more aesthetically pleasing amount of change back is just adding a needless complication into a business transaction. You will not die if you have 5 pennies in your pocket. Actually, I never pay for anything with coins; I take my coins to the bank and just deposit the lot using their coin counter (if your bank charges for this service, get a new bank).

I can understand the change thing.  Many people, myself included, use credit cards exclusively and don't have much reason to think about cash.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 18, 2014, 08:37:54 PM
Throwing extra coins at a cashier for the sake of getting a more aesthetically pleasing amount of change back is just adding a needless complication into a business transaction. You will not die if you have 5 pennies in your pocket. Actually, I never pay for anything with coins; I take my coins to the bank and just deposit the lot using their coin counter (if your bank charges for this service, get a new bank).

I use the Coinstar machine at the grocery store and I get either a grocery-store gift card or an Amazon gift card. Neither of those carries a fee, whereas a cash voucher does. Since my wife and I are voracious readers, the Amazon card (actually a slip of paper with an alphanumeric code) is worthwhile.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 18, 2014, 04:57:20 PM

Quote from: jake on July 18, 2014, 03:57:57 PM
1) Cycling is the new way of getting around -- if you drive a car, you either hate mother earth or you're just a fat loser.

you must not have graduated college yet.

I believe he said in parentheses that that wasn't his opinion.

Reading comprehension is going down the shitter too.  Either that or it is selective reading.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 06:38:19 PM

Quote from: mhh on July 18, 2014, 06:19:06 PM
A few years ago I made a $4.75 purchase at a bowling alley snack bar. I paid with a $5 bill. The cashier said "This'll take just a minute; my calculator broke". She then calculated my change with a pencil and paper and gave me 35 cents back.

:rofl: :rofl:

I've given money back on occasion when I've been given too much change, mainly because I remember when I worked retail one summer during college the store would hold the cashiers responsible for shortages in the till.

(Edited because my iPad changed "till" to "toll.")

I thought about giving her the dime back but she probably woundn't have understood why I was giving it back, so I threw it in her tip jar instead.

Hmmm.... I treat technology like a tool. GPS is a tool. Internet is a tool. If it weren't for the Internets, I would not have discovered time lapse videos, and the fun of road geekery.

I think that part of the issue is that the joy of learning something new and exciting is driven out of us by the education system, and a sense of curiosity is strongly discouraged. The work environment has changed drastically from 25 years ago, and we are doing more work in the same amount of time, sometimes doing the work of three people.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 05:11:40 PM
I always hate it when I get stuck behind a woman–not trying to stereotype, but it's always a woman doing this–who wants to pay by check. She could very easily fill in the date and the name of the store, sign the check, and fill in her check register while the cashier is ringing it up, then fill in the amount at the end. Never happens. They always wait until the cashier is done before they even start looking for the checkbook in their gargantuan pocketbooks, much less filling in the check. Perhaps this is a function of most check-writers I see these days being little old ladies who memorize the prices of every item they buy and so watch the checkout display like hawks to harp on even a 1¢ discrepancy.

These "little old ladies" are also probably counting on the antiquated "check float" that used to exist between writing the check and when the bank processed the check. With improvements in technology, some retail establishments can actually process the check right there and then, and present the customer with the voided and processed check, the money already pulled from the account. You might as well pay through your debit card, but doing that would blow their minds.

I'm surprised that checks haven't been eliminated by now, but there are enough businesses that rely on the check. If I were to pay my property taxes by credit card, the county will add on a $20 processing fee, but if I pay by check, there is no processing fee. (Sigh)

Quote from: ZLoth on July 19, 2014, 04:10:33 AM
....

I'm surprised that checks haven't been eliminated by now, but there are enough businesses that rely on the check. If I were to pay my property taxes by credit card, the county will add on a $20 processing fee, but if I pay by check, there is no processing fee. (Sigh)

In some situations, checks are required. The Virginia State Bar requires payments an attorney makes to a client (example–you settle his case and he gets money out of it) to be by check. Wire transfer isn't allowed even though there's still a record of it and it's faster. You must use a paper check, period.

The county adds a fee on your property taxes because the credit card issuer charges a fee and the county, quite understandably, isn't going to give up part of the taxes to the card issuer. But a flat fee is a weird way to do it instead of charging a percentage that's closer to what the issuer charges. Sometimes the county will come out ahead, sometimes they'll come out behind (depends on real estate values, obviously), so maybe it all averages out in the end. (If you pay your federal income tax with a credit card, you have to use a third-party processor that charges a percentage-based fee for the same reason. I think it's not unreasonable to have to pay a fee because you should still have to pay the full amount of tax regardless of your method of payment.)

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 19, 2014, 08:37:54 AM
The county adds a fee on your property taxes because the credit card issuer charges a fee and the county, quite understandably, isn't going to give up part of the taxes to the card issuer. But a flat fee is a weird way to do it instead of charging a percentage that's closer to what the issuer charges. Sometimes the county will come out ahead, sometimes they'll come out behind (depends on real estate values, obviously), so maybe it all averages out in the end. (If you pay your federal income tax with a credit card, you have to use a third-party processor that charges a percentage-based fee for the same reason. I think it's not unreasonable to have to pay a fee because you should still have to pay the full amount of tax regardless of your method of payment.)

It's not a flat fee, only that I recall that the processing fee was around $20 on top of the property tax. Either way, because of the premium of using a card with a Visa or Mastercard logo is the big reason why checks won't go anywhere any time soon. At least the treasurer of the two Toastmaster groups that I belong to accept PopMoney transfers which are fee-free through my credit union.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 17, 2014, 10:42:12 AM
Take your gas station attendant example.  The person working there didn't graduate college with a degree in finding things.  You are talking to an average, everyday Jane or Joe that may not even live in the local area.  If you ask them how to get to one of the most popular attractions or hotels in the area, they can probably get you there.  If you ask them how to get to a lesser known attraction you found on the internet, chances are that gas station person isn't aware of the lesser known attraction either. 

Moving back near the topic...

It was this way during the incubation period of the internet too.  I was on a day trip to Gettysburg, PA to drive around the battlefield there, and afterwards I drove down to Frederick, MD to attend a minor league baseball game.  When I reached Frederick, I stopped in a fast food place to relieve myself, and I asked one of the help for instructions to the stadium.  He didn't know where it was (either out of town he lived and/or he wasn't a baseball fan).  The manager standing nearby gave me instructions that took me via downtown Frederick.  (I partly blame myself for this because I didn't bring an official State Highway Administration Maryland map with me.  With it, I could've gotten back on U.S. 15 south to I-70 east to the stadium exit [blush].)

ixnay

I'm one that will research the route ahead of time.  I do not bother though to anticipate construction - especially further on the route on long trips - but very often haven't ran into detours that prevent a clinch or two. 

I've gotten into starting a GPS route to bring up ETA - especially if the trip is tight-timed (be there for a party/work/meeting/etc) as the Google Maps app is really good with ETAs.  I've been also using it or last few turns efforts, but it's not perfect - especially in New Jersey :ded: - I've seen it route me onto a road where I've seen ahead that an unnoticed (by GPS) ramp provides quicker access - GPS overridden, because road awareness.

Quote from: Brian556 on July 18, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
When you are younger, you learn the streets well because you ride around on a bicycle a lot, and you don't have all the worries of an adult. Riding a bicycle or walking allows you to pay attention to details that you would not notice while driving, because you are moving slower, and you don't have to focus your attention on driving.

And since kids are generally not allowed to do this anymore due to helicopter parenting, they don't even learn the local roads, even if they stay in the same area to adulthood.


iPhone

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 18, 2014, 05:11:40 PM
I always hate it when I get stuck behind a woman–not trying to stereotype, but it's always a woman doing this–who wants to pay by check. She could very easily fill in the date and the name of the store, sign the check, and fill in her check register while the cashier is ringing it up, then fill in the amount at the end. Never happens. They always wait until the cashier is done before they even start looking for the checkbook in their gargantuan pocketbooks, much less filling in the check. Perhaps this is a function of most check-writers I see these days being little old ladies who memorize the prices of every item they buy and so watch the checkout display like hawks to harp on even a 1¢ discrepancy.

And it is usually an old woman, too. I agree...can't they just have the thing filled out before the total comes up? I hate paying with checks, or anything to do with checks. The entire system is SLOOW. Although, sometimes it can be a good thing if you are out of money it is a day or two before you get paid.

Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2014, 08:43:00 PM
I can understand the change thing.  Many people, myself included, use credit cards exclusively and don't have much reason to think about cash.

I mostly use my debit card for transactions, but when I do use cash, I try to have enough change so that if something comes to, let's say $4.05, and I have a $5, I give the cashier something greater than $5.05 so that I don't get a crap ton of change back. On the other hand, if I want a crap ton of change, I can just give her the $5.

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 19, 2014, 10:11:46 AM
I'm one that will research the route ahead of time.  I do not bother though to anticipate construction - especially further on the route on long trips - but very often haven't ran into detours that prevent a clinch or two. 

I've gotten into starting a GPS route to bring up ETA - especially if the trip is tight-timed (be there for a party/work/meeting/etc) as the Google Maps app is really good with ETAs.  I've been also using it or last few turns efforts, but it's not perfect - especially in New Jersey :ded: - I've seen it route me onto a road where I've seen ahead that an unnoticed (by GPS) ramp provides quicker access - GPS overridden, because road awareness.

I do much of the same thing. That way I am not reliant on a GPS. Sometimes I will write down which roads to take in case I forget, but a lot of times I can remember which roads I am taking so when I am out in the field I can just rely on signage alone.

Quote from: Laura on July 21, 2014, 08:13:00 AM

Quote from: Brian556 on July 18, 2014, 01:04:20 PM
When you are younger, you learn the streets well because you ride around on a bicycle a lot, and you don't have all the worries of an adult. Riding a bicycle or walking allows you to pay attention to details that you would not notice while driving, because you are moving slower, and you don't have to focus your attention on driving.

And since kids are generally not allowed to do this anymore due to helicopter parenting, they don't even learn the local roads, even if they stay in the same area to adulthood.

Helicopter parenting? That's a new one I haven't heard before.

I think she means the parents watching out for the pervs.

Anyway, about checkbooks they do the same thing in church too.  They hold up mass when the collection basket is being passed around so they can search their purse for their checkbook long after seeing the basket being passed around ten or twelve pews ahead of them.  Heck people know that soon as the choir director starts announcing the Offertory Hymn that should be the cue that the basket is coming around.

Not trying to preach religion here, but to mention that its the older women who do that there as well.  And what gets me is that my bank charges heavily to have paper checks.  Why don't these ladies use the darn debit card and save not only the time, but money for themselves!

Some parents are so bad...and their children are so used to it...that when the kid is a senior in college and is going on their real-world full-time job interviews, the parents want to be there with them.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 21, 2014, 09:16:04 AM
Some parents are so bad...and their children are so used to it...that when the kid is a senior in college and is going on their real-world full-time job interviews, the parents want to be there with them.

I've heard of parents calling a company's hiring manager to ask why their child didn't get hired for that first post-college job.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 19, 2014, 04:10:33 AM
I'm surprised that checks haven't been eliminated by now, but there are enough businesses that rely on the check. If I were to pay my property taxes by credit card, the county will add on a $20 processing fee, but if I pay by check, there is no processing fee. (Sigh)

They're useful for paying outside of a store environment, like if a plumber wants payment upon completion of the work. I also use checks to pay my lawn guy.

Personally, I have a Square the I use if someone needs to pay me. It's much more convenient than a check and is useful for splitting a bill at a restaurant, selling things on craigslist, and things like that.

The 'processing' fee for a credit card is really the fee the county is getting charged by their merchant service provider, which is probably in the neighborhood of around 3% or so of the transaction, especially in cases where the payee writes down their credit card info to be processed (unlike at a store, where the credit card would be swiped).

Quote from: roadman65 on July 21, 2014, 09:00:18 AM
Anyway, about checkbooks they do the same thing in church too.  They hold up mass when the collection basket is being passed around so they can search their purse for their checkbook long after seeing the basket being passed around ten or twelve pews ahead of them.  Heck people know that soon as the choir director starts announcing the Offertory Hymn that should be the cue that the basket is coming around.

Not trying to preach religion here, but to mention that its the older women who do that there as well.  And what gets me is that my bank charges heavily to have paper checks.  Why don't these ladies use the darn debit card and save not only the time, but money for themselves!

What would be even easier is if they signed up for electronic deposits/withdrawals and skip the checks altogether (if their religious institution has it, of course). Both churches I have belonged to have had this as an option, not only for convenience of their parishioners, but also as a way to save on the cost of printing offering envelopes.

I wonder if the driving equivalent of the cash register scenarios posed earlier would be to install conveyor belts on roads before interchanges so that you don't have to read all those pesky signs, especially if the ramps might be closed because of road construction or something or if the interchange is moderately complex with lots of signage.

Oh, and I also think the prevalence of automatic transmissions in vehicles is a contributing factor because it allows drivers to focus just a little bit less on the road and makes driving a more passive experience.

Quote from: DaBigE on July 21, 2014, 11:04:55 AMWhat would be even easier is if they signed up for electronic deposits/withdrawals and skip the checks altogether (if their religious institution has it, of course). Both churches I have belonged to have had this as an option, not only for convenience of their parishioners, but also as a way to save on the cost of printing offering envelopes.

There was an old email joke that circulated that listed several signs that one was in a bad church; one of them listed... if there's an ATM in the foyer.  :sombrero:

All joking aside; since giving to one's place of worship is usually on a voluntary basis (although many encourage consistent tithing/giving, etc. of their members), many would likely object to such... on the grounds of invasion of privacy. 

Another reason against such: if the religious institution in question turns out to be corrupt (which can happen); giving that institution the ability to automatically withdrawls from their members/parishoners would be opening a Pandora's Box so to speak.

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 AM

Quote from: DaBigE on July 21, 2014, 11:04:55 AMWhat would be even easier is if they signed up for electronic deposits/withdrawals and skip the checks altogether (if their religious institution has it, of course). Both churches I have belonged to have had this as an option, not only for convenience of their parishioners, but also as a way to save on the cost of printing offering envelopes.

There was an old email joke that circulated that listed several signs that one was in a bad church; one of them listed... if there's an ATM in the foyer.  :sombrero:

All joking aside; since giving to one's place of worship is usually on a voluntary basis (although many encourage consistent tithing/giving, etc. of their members), many would likely object to such... on the grounds of invasion of privacy. 

Another reason against such: if the religious institution in question turns out to be corrupt (which can happen); giving that institution the ability to automatically withdrawls from their members/parishoners would be opening a Pandora's Box so to speak.

I would also think that allowing people to pay by check is also an invasion of privacy. With checks, I can tell how much a given person paid whereas with cash, that's impossible.

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 AM

Quote from: DaBigE on July 21, 2014, 11:04:55 AMWhat would be even easier is if they signed up for electronic deposits/withdrawals and skip the checks altogether (if their religious institution has it, of course). Both churches I have belonged to have had this as an option, not only for convenience of their parishioners, but also as a way to save on the cost of printing offering envelopes.

All joking aside; since giving to one's place of worship is usually on a voluntary basis (although many encourage consistent tithing/giving, etc. of their members), many would likely object to such... on the grounds of invasion of privacy. 

If auto withdrawal is permitted, it's usually voluntary anyway, so if someone objects they could have many reasons why they would object.  Besides, it's more secure than that check they write out anyway...which has the giver's name, address, account number and bank routing number anyway.

Churchgoers can be a weird bunch anyway.  They listen for an hour about doing right, then I can watch nearly every one of them leave, crossing a street against a don't walk signal or leaving the parking lot without making a complete stop.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 21, 2014, 12:01:50 PM
I would also think that allowing people to pay by check is also an invasion of privacy. With checks, I can tell how much a given person paid whereas with cash, that's impossible.

On the other hand, depending on how much one donates, having that itemized statement can be important because it serves as a record if the IRS later questions the deduction.

I've freaked out some old ladies at Mass when I've made change out of the collection basket–for example, I wanted to give $10 but I only had a $20, so when the basket reached me I put in a $20 and removed a $10. This works better in a a parish where they pass the basket and you can hold onto it for a moment. At the parish we attended when I grew up, the ushers extended the baskets down the pews.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 21, 2014, 12:01:50 PM
I would also think that allowing people to pay by check is also an invasion of privacy. With checks, I can tell how much a given person paid whereas with cash, that's impossible.

As long as the cash isn't put into a church envelope, tracking it is virtually impossible. However, for tax purposes, you want them to know how much you've donated/tithed/offered. If you're a member of said religious institution, does it really matter? Many track your attendance, communion attendance, and tithing as a tool to determine who might need more "guidance". (interpret guidance however you wish)

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 AM
Another reason against such: if the religious institution in question turns out to be corrupt (which can happen); giving that institution the ability to automatically withdrawls from their members/parishoners would be opening a Pandora's Box so to speak.

No different than any other place that offers automatic payments. I would hope someone would use a little common sense before opening their bank account to such a system regardless of whether it's a religious institution or otherwise. With my church, I have virtually complete control over my offerings...increase/decrease (amount and frequency) and when to terminate the connection altogether.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 21, 2014, 12:13:13 PMIf auto withdrawal is permitted, it's usually voluntary anyway, so if someone objects they could have many reasons why they would object.

Understood, but if the let's do away with checks altogether (as recommended by some on this thread) concept ever came to pass; many that give by check (but don't want automatic withdrawls) would simply either give less.  Voice of experience here; at my congregation, the larger offering amounts are paid by check vs. cash.  Very rarely does one place a large amount of cash in an offering envelope.

Long story short; such is taking away a choice in terms of payment.

That said, and in an attempt to steer back to (or close) to topic here, it seems to me in this thread and others like it; it seems like the (mostly) younger set are always advocating the elimination of the old-school methods just because they themselves don't use them.  In contrast, the (mostly) older crowd that still uses the old tried-and-true methods aren't, by any means, advocating for the prohibition of the newer technology/methods.

In short, the technoholics want everybody to conform to their ways.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 21, 2014, 12:13:13 PMChurchgoers can be a weird bunch anyway.  They listen for an hour about doing right, then I can watch nearly every one of them leave, crossing a street against a don't walk signal or leaving the parking lot without making a complete stop.

While there is some truth to that statement; I'll admit.  Do keep in mind that your post does come off as a stereotype of sorts.  For all you know, there may be some on this board that do attend a house of worship (church, synagogue or even mosque) on a consistent and regular basis.

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 12:42:04 PMit seems like the (mostly) younger set are always advocating the elimination of the old-school methods just because they themselves don't use them

I don't advocate for the elimination of checks.  I do, however, scratch my head at my mortgage company charging me $3.50 for an electronic funds transfer, but taking a check for free.  one takes about 30 milliseconds of electrons bouncing around; the other requires a clerk to confirm the amount, and then the inevitable final step of honoring a valid check is ... you guessed it, 30 milliseconds of electrons bouncing around.

so why am I required to pay a "convenience fee" for something that saves the bank some time?

Well thats because the public does not care about the difference between an interstate shield, California spade or US Routes, County Pentagon route, and a forest route shield.

I see maps where US-50 and US-101 is signed as an interstate even though its white. US-50 and US-101 are signed as a Korean expressway Interstate on some maps here in the USA on Business maps. Or even city routes that have expressways.

The Public does not act like AAroads members or Freewayjim members act when it comes to roads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeongdong_Expressway

I seen business maps sign US-50 in Sacramento like this.

Quote from: bing101 on July 21, 2014, 01:02:16 PM
Well thats because the public does not care about the difference between an interstate shield, California spade or US Routes, County Pentagon route, and a forest route shield.

Depends on the state.  I've often believed that a policy of not repeating route numbers from I, US, and SR routes leads to people not understanding the difference between the different routes.  That, and always referring to all routes, be they I, US, SR, or County, as "highway".  (Yes, WisDOT, that's you!)

It's a big difference between say Michigan, where people do know the difference and actually use them in speech, i.e. "take M 14 to I 275 north to M 5" or "take 94 east to US 127 north"; and Wisconsin, where people tend not to know the difference, i.e. "take highway 94 to highway 241 to highway 41 to highway C".

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 21, 2014, 12:52:02 PMI don't advocate for the elimination of checks.  I do, however, scratch my head at my mortgage company charging me $3.50 for an electronic funds transfer, but taking a check for free.  one takes about 30 milliseconds of electrons bouncing around; the other requires a clerk to confirm the amount, and then the inevitable final step of honoring a valid check is ... you guessed it, 30 milliseconds of electrons bouncing around.

so why am I required to pay a "convenience fee" for something that saves the bank some time?

Guess on my part, that fee is what the bank charges the mortgage company for such a service.  The mortgage company, in turn, passes that charge (or part of it) onto their customers.

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 21, 2014, 11:54:45 AM
Oh, and I also think the prevalence of automatic transmissions in vehicles is a contributing factor because it allows drivers to focus just a little bit less on the road and makes driving a more passive experience.

As much as I enjoy (and prefer) a manual transmission, the automatic transmission dates back to the 1940s. If anything, it grew in popularity along the same time the Interstate system was initially being built.

It is very, well serendipitous, that this article appeared in my newsfeed from forum member Dr. Frankenstein: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/using-maps-vs-gps.html

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 01:14:19 PM
Guess on my part, that fee is what the bank charges the mortgage company for such a service.  The mortgage company, in turn, passes that charge (or part of it) onto their customers.

the question remains.  why is the bank charging for EFT, but not for a check whose last step in processing is the identical EFT?

Quote from: codyg1985 on July 21, 2014, 02:55:33 PM
It is very, well serendipitous, that this article appeared in my newsfeed from forum member Dr. Frankenstein: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/using-maps-vs-gps.html

That's covered in this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12978.0).

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 21, 2014, 02:59:42 PMthe question remains.  why is the bank charging for EFT, but not for a check whose last step in processing is the identical EFT?

Maintenance fee for the computers that perform EFT.

Quote from: DaBigE on July 21, 2014, 12:22:10 PM
....

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 AM
Another reason against such: if the religious institution in question turns out to be corrupt (which can happen); giving that institution the ability to automatically withdrawls from their members/parishoners would be opening a Pandora's Box so to speak.

No different than any other place that offers automatic payments. I would hope someone would use a little common sense before opening their bank account to such a system regardless of whether it's a religious institution or otherwise. With my church, I have virtually complete control over my offerings...increase/decrease (amount and frequency) and when to terminate the connection altogether.

I don't give any creditor (charge cards, mortgage company, DirecTV, whomever) access to my bank accounts to withdraw money automatically. Never have, never will. I've always thought it opens you up to too much risk.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 21, 2014, 03:19:40 PMI don't give any creditor (charge cards, mortgage company, DirecTV, whomever) access to my bank accounts to withdraw money automatically. Never have, never will. I've always thought it opens you up to too much risk.

Same here.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 21, 2014, 03:19:40 PM

Quote from: DaBigE on July 21, 2014, 12:22:10 PM
....

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 AM
Another reason against such: if the religious institution in question turns out to be corrupt (which can happen); giving that institution the ability to automatically withdrawls from their members/parishoners would be opening a Pandora's Box so to speak.

No different than any other place that offers automatic payments. I would hope someone would use a little common sense before opening their bank account to such a system regardless of whether it's a religious institution or otherwise. With my church, I have virtually complete control over my offerings...increase/decrease (amount and frequency) and when to terminate the connection altogether.

I don't give any creditor (charge cards, mortgage company, DirecTV, whomever) access to my bank accounts to withdraw money automatically. Never have, never will. I've always thought it opens you up to too much risk.

I get frustrated with the city for water payments and with the power company. I can pay both bills with credit cards online but they only support automatic payments by direct debit. It makes no sense that I can't set up an automatic credit card payment.

I do have the city on direct debit but pay the power company manually each month by credit card.

Quote from: formulanone on July 21, 2014, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 21, 2014, 11:54:45 AM
Oh, and I also think the prevalence of automatic transmissions in vehicles is a contributing factor because it allows drivers to focus just a little bit less on the road and makes driving a more passive experience.

As much as I enjoy (and prefer) a manual transmission, the automatic transmission dates back to the 1940s. If anything, it grew in popularity along the same time the Interstate system was initially being built.

I would argue the opposite: not having to supervise my car's gearshifting gives me more mental bandwidth to deal with complex navigational problems and traffic exigencies.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 21, 2014, 02:59:42 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 01:14:19 PM
Guess on my part, that fee is what the bank charges the mortgage company for such a service.  The mortgage company, in turn, passes that charge (or part of it) onto their customers.

the question remains.  why is the bank charging for EFT, but not for a check whose last step in processing is the identical EFT?

My guess is that the concept of charging a fee for EFT came about when EFT was new and weird, before the check-cashing system was just a front for EFT. Now that EFT acceptance has advanced to the point that EFT is easier than checks, the fee is not removed because fuck the customer, am I right?

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 21, 2014, 03:19:40 PM
I don't give any creditor (charge cards, mortgage company, DirecTV, whomever) access to my bank accounts to withdraw money automatically. Never have, never will. I've always thought it opens you up to too much risk.

I'm more comfortable with that, having been in situations (like being out of town for months at a time, or prolonged post-surgical recoveries) where having my finances mostly on auto-pilot ensured that I didn't miss any payments.  As a side benefit, I will probably never have to pay for a new order of checks, until forced to do so by an address and/or bank change. 

But I do try to get automatic payments charged to a credit card rather than pulled directly from my checking account, to give me a little more protection.  For some bills (such as electric and gas, condo fees, long-term care insurance, county real and personal property taxes, E-ZPass, and of course the credit card companies), charging to a card is either not possible or comes at too high a price.

You can't charge EZ Pass to a cc? NJ's EZ Pass system allows it. In fact, it goes to my AmEx card.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2014, 12:03:13 AM
You can't charge EZ Pass to a cc? NJ's EZ Pass system allows it. In fact, it goes to my AmEx card.

Might depend on where you get your E-ZPass.  I think Virginia E-ZPass allows charging automatic replenishment to a credit card -- it definitely allows that for manual replenishment.  But at the time I signed up, there were advantages to charging to a checking account (I don't know for sure if that's still true).

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2014, 12:03:13 AM
You can't charge EZ Pass to a cc? NJ's EZ Pass system allows it. In fact, it goes to my AmEx card.

ISTHA does the same with I-Pass.  In fact, if you use automatic replenishment via credit/debit card, your refundable deposit is $10 instead of $20.

Quote from: oscar on July 22, 2014, 02:48:33 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 22, 2014, 12:03:13 AM
You can't charge EZ Pass to a cc? NJ's EZ Pass system allows it. In fact, it goes to my AmEx card.

Might depend on where you get your E-ZPass.  I think Virginia E-ZPass allows charging automatic replenishment to a credit card -- it definitely allows that for manual replenishment.  But at the time I signed up, there were advantages to charging to a checking account (I don't know for sure if that's still true).

Our Virginia account has always charged automatic replenishment to my American Express card except back in the Smart Tag days, and back then the reason it didn't was that I didn't have American Express at the time so it charged to a different card.

On the subject of technology and stupid people... (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/22/bizarre_reasons_for_stopping_on_the_motorway/)

Quote from: algorerhythms on July 22, 2014, 12:37:44 PM
On the subject of technology and stupid people... (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/22/bizarre_reasons_for_stopping_on_the_motorway/)

That's both simultaneously funny and stupid.  :rofl:  :pan:

Quote from: Brandon on July 21, 2014, 01:13:33 PM

Quote from: bing101 on July 21, 2014, 01:02:16 PM
Well thats because the public does not care about the difference between an interstate shield, California spade or US Routes, County Pentagon route, and a forest route shield.

Depends on the state.  I've often believed that a policy of not repeating route numbers from I, US, and SR routes leads to people not understanding the difference between the different routes.  That, and always referring to all routes, be they I, US, SR, or County, as "highway".  (Yes, WisDOT, that's you!)

It's a big difference between say Michigan, where people do know the difference and actually use them in speech, i.e. "take M 14 to I 275 north to M 5" or "take 94 east to US 127 north"; and Wisconsin, where people tend not to know the difference, i.e. "take highway 94 to highway 241 to highway 41 to highway C".

In New Jersey its Route for everything.  When I first moved to Florida I was the only one who did not refer to I-4 as such.  I called it Route 4 as in New Jersey I-78 was Route 78, and even US 1 was often Route 1.  So if you had to take US 1 to I-287 to get to Easton, PA it would be Route 1 to Route 287 to either Route 22 or Route 78. 

That is why no duplicate routes in many states because people are synonymous with all designations.  That maybe why all the PA 202, PA 209, NY 209, etc. with states not getting the proper shield for the right route number.  Many people see the sign and most would not even notice a state shield for US route.  Heck I bet residents of Parsippany, NJ do not even know that the NJ 202 shields near US 46 are even erroneous!

Quote from: roadman65 on July 22, 2014, 01:18:33 PM

Quote from: Brandon on July 21, 2014, 01:13:33 PM

Quote from: bing101 on July 21, 2014, 01:02:16 PM
Well thats because the public does not care about the difference between an interstate shield, California spade or US Routes, County Pentagon route, and a forest route shield.

Depends on the state.  I've often believed that a policy of not repeating route numbers from I, US, and SR routes leads to people not understanding the difference between the different routes.  That, and always referring to all routes, be they I, US, SR, or County, as "highway".  (Yes, WisDOT, that's you!)

It's a big difference between say Michigan, where people do know the difference and actually use them in speech, i.e. "take M 14 to I 275 north to M 5" or "take 94 east to US 127 north"; and Wisconsin, where people tend not to know the difference, i.e. "take highway 94 to highway 241 to highway 41 to highway C".

In New Jersey its Route for everything.  When I first moved to Florida I was the only one who did not refer to I-4 as such.  I called it Route 4 as in New Jersey I-78 was Route 78, and even US 1 was often Route 1.  So if you had to take US 1 to I-287 to get to Easton, PA it would be Route 1 to Route 287 to either Route 22 or Route 78. 

That is why no duplicate routes in many states because people are synonymous with all designations.  That maybe why all the PA 202, PA 209, NY 209, etc. with states not getting the proper shield for the right route number.  Many people see the sign and most would not even notice a state shield for US route.  Heck I bet residents of Parsippany, NJ do not even know that the NJ 202 shields near US 46 are even erroneous!

When I lived in the Northeast, I also heard "route" for everything. When I'm in North Carolina, it's sometimes difficult to switch. I remember trying to tell someone to take "Route 1" (US 1) and just getting a blank stare until I said "Highway 1."

Heck I was in Goodlettesville, TN and no one even knew that US 41 existed there.  It was referred by locals by its local street name.  Even co-signed US 31W was unheard of.  I found that out while asking directions about US 41 and got a stare as well.

Even here in Orlando many do not even know that Orange Blossom Trail is also US 17 & 92 in addition to US 441.  In fact the US 17 & US 92 shield are dominate over the US 441 shields along the way that most people travel.  The two digit routes are on top with the three digit below it.  How can you miss that?   What even irks me is the idiot who installed the signal at Orange Blossom Trail and Stable Drive erected the new back lit signs that Orange County uses to say "US 441" instead of Orange Blossom Trail which is what other area signals have on the overhead street signs with the county logo.  This one just is plain without county logo and plain ordinary lettering that reads one third of the road's route numbers.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 22, 2014, 01:30:16 PM
Heck I was in Goodlettesville, TN and no one even knew that US 41 existed there.  It was referred by locals by its local street name.  Even co-signed US 31W was unheard of.  I found that out while asking directions about US 41 and got a stare as well.

Even here in Orlando many do not even know that Orange Blossom Trail is also US 17 & 92 in addition to US 441.  In fact the US 17 & US 92 shield are dominate over the US 441 shields along the way that most people travel.  The two digit routes are on top with the three digit below it.  How can you miss that?   What even irks me is the idiot who installed the signal at Orange Blossom Trail and Stable Drive erected the new back lit signs that Orange County uses to say "US 441" which all the other area signals on OBT do not.  Not even a mention of the Orange Blossom Trail (which all the other signals have with our county logo on it) is at this intersection.

I would assume that it may have been US 441 for years before it was also multiplexed with 17 and 92. People are stubborn about sticking to old names and not learning what else it can be referred to as.

If it weren't for technology such as the Internet, databases, and web browsers, I wouldn't be able to post maps of my upcoming road trips and ask for advice as to where to go and where to stay.

Here in MD, we don't really have any routes that don't have a corresponding name. MD 355 = Rockville Pike or Wisconsin Avenue. US 29 = Colesville Rd or Columbia Pike or Georgia avenue

For roads without a clear name or for highways, we use just the number. "Take 495 to 50 east," never mind that one is an interstate and one is a US highway. If we want to be clearer, we use Route, but almost never highway.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 22, 2014, 01:23:14 PM
When I lived in the Northeast, I also heard "route" for everything. When I'm in North Carolina, it's sometimes difficult to switch. I remember trying to tell someone to take "Route 1" (US 1) and just getting a blank stare until I said "Highway 1."

I've heard a lot of people in South Carolina use the word "road" for state routes and US routes. For interstates, they just use the number.  "Get on 77 north." In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Depending on where you're from, there is no difference between the 3.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2014, 09:42:23 AM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Depending on where you're from, there is no difference between the 3.

Yup. I recall one of those "dialect quizzes" asking what you call a road where you drive fast that doesn't have traffic lights. You know the sorts of quiz–it asks things like what you call a carbonated beverage and gives you a choice of answers such as soda, soft drink, fizzy drink, Coke, pop, etc. For the road question, I recall it offering the options highway, freeway, expressway, "I have no name for this," and probably "other." Just because the Federal Highway Administration ascribes a particular significance to "freeway" versus "expressway" doesn't mean the regular "man on the street" has to respect that difference in everyday usage. I've always thought of "freeway" as a California-ism. The only time I normally hear that word used, except by people from out West, is when it's part of a road's name, such as the Whitehurst Freeway. To me "highway" is a generic term referring to the grade of road New Yorkers call an "expressway" and the FHWA calls a "freeway." I've heard people from some areas out West use it in lieu of "route" or "I-" or whatever (for example, "To get to Charlottesville from DC, take Highway 66 west to Gainesville and then Highway 29 south to Charlottesville"), but that sounds alien to my ears.

If you asked me how long it takes to get to Tysons Corner, I might tell you (depending on the time of day, of course!) it's 15 minutes on the highway versus half an hour through the streets. In this case "the highway" means I-495.

But then, when it comes to giving directions I've always tried to give multiple pieces of information in case the person receiving the directions messes up one part of the instructions. I'll try to give a route number and type (I-66, US-29, VA-123, etc.), an exit number, the cities listed on the BGS if I know what they are, and maybe some other landmark. In local driving I'll tend to use landmarks more, such as a shopping center or a high school or a particular local feature.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2014, 09:42:23 AM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Depending on where you're from, there is no difference between the 3.

Folks around Searcy, AR call the US 67 freeway "the interstate"

Quote from: US71 on July 23, 2014, 10:38:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2014, 09:42:23 AM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Depending on where you're from, there is no difference between the 3.

Folks around Searcy, AR[,] call the US 67 freeway "the interstate"

That's kind of similar to the "dialect quiz" giving the option of "Coke" as a generic term. I understand this is somewhat common in parts of the South. (To me, the generic term is "soda," but the machine is a "Coke machine" even if it has a Pepsi logo.....similar to how the person driving the beverage cart at the golf course is always the "beer girl" even if said person is male).

How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

Same is true with Velcro and Kleenex

What is the real name for Velcro?  I never knew that was one brand's product name either.

If it's not Velcro brand, it's just a hook and loop fastener.

IIRC, there was a lawsuit over some other company using the Velcro name on its packaging without permission.

It is more than a hook and a loop to be called that.

In NC I've heard people use "Clorox" to refer to any kind of bleach. I haven't that elsewhere though.

The younger crowd sometimes says "Let's play Nintendo" or "Let's play PlayStation" when they really mean "Let's play video games." We also say "Xerox" instead of "copy."

To bring this back to roads, one term I never liked was referring to an interstate as "The I." Ugh. Sounds like heavy metal band name or the name of a really bad STD or something.  :-D

Quote from: DaBigE on July 23, 2014, 11:32:51 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

Same is true with Velcro and Kleenex

These are called "generic trademarks". "Jell-o" is another example. Along with "elevator", and "aspirin".

Quote from: jake on July 23, 2014, 01:31:10 PM

Quote from: DaBigE on July 23, 2014, 11:32:51 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

Same is true with Velcro and Kleenex

These are called "generic trademarks". "Jell-o" is another example. Along with "elevator", and "aspirin".

Aspirin, I believe, is still a Bayer trademark outside the US.  Here I think we removed the protection as a wartime punishment.   

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
The younger crowd sometimes says "Let's play Nintendo" or "Let's play PlayStation" when they really mean "Let's play video games." We also say "Xerox" instead of "copy."

To bring this back to roads, one term I never liked was referring to an interstate as "The I." Ugh. Sounds like heavy metal band name or the name of a really bad STD or something.  :-D

It is better than IH as Texas would say.  Not that I am knocking on Texas, but it is easier to say one letter than two letters.  To me that IH reminds me of "I ate."  Better yet it sounds like "I Hate" which I am sure some Texans say that about I-45 during rush hour lol!

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 23, 2014, 01:43:37 PM

Quote from: jake on July 23, 2014, 01:31:10 PM

Quote from: DaBigE on July 23, 2014, 11:32:51 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

Same is true with Velcro and Kleenex

These are called "generic trademarks". "Jell-o" is another example. Along with "elevator", and "aspirin".

Aspirin, I believe, is still a Bayer trademark outside the US.  Here I think we removed the protection as a wartime punishment.

Fun fact: Heroin was originally a Bayer trademark. I wonder if they miss that one.

Even funner fact: it was originally marketed as a safer alternative to morphine.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

I always thought it was these guys ;)

Oh you mean plasters.

Over this side of the pond, we use our Dysons (bagless vacuum cleaner, not necessarily a Dyson) to hoover (brand name become a verb as well as a generic noun) the floor.

We use Coke as a generic for all colas (you often get a 'we have Pepsi' response in pubs if you ask for a coke), but all soft drinks/sodas/pop is mental.

We don't genericise brands anywhere near as much as you guys. Mostly food stuffs where there's one brand and then a load of supermarket 'own brands' (Frosties, Rice Krispies, Cornetto, Penguins) rather than competing brands

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 01:47:29 PM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
The younger crowd sometimes says "Let's play Nintendo" or "Let's play PlayStation" when they really mean "Let's play video games."

Nope - what they mean is lets play video games on this specific brand of console.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 11:19:49 AM
How about Band Aid?  People are not aware it is a brand name by Johnson & Johnson, but call all adhesive strips that.  In fact I was unaware of its real name for many years.

Another common misconception is the name Q Tips.  It, too, is a brand name that gotten used to call every other competitor out there same product as well.  The proper name is cotton swab, but people constantly call it a Q Tip.

You may have noticed Johnson & Johnson changed the lyrics to their jingle. Thirty years ago, it was "I am stuck on Band-Aid because Band-Aid's stuck on me." Now it's "I am stuck on Band-Aid Brand 'cause Band-Aid's stuck on me." The word "Brand" is there to protect the trademark.

As a general matter, policing the trademark matters more with respect to a company's competitors than it does as to the general public, although the public is not entirely irrelevant. The word "Xerox" has not become genericized from a legal standpoint, for example, because the company of that name undertook a serious effort to protect it, including running ads talking about how "you can't 'xerox' something, but you can make a great photocopy on your Xerox brand copier" (or words roughly to that effect). Notice you don't see Xerox's competitors advertising, say, "Buy a Kyocera xerox machine and receive XYZ rebate" or whatever. Xerox would sue them for trademark misuse if they did. Similarly, I've never heard any of Kimberly-Clark's competitors advertising "kleenex" (with a lowercase "k")–they advertise "facial tissues" or the like. I have a feeling the word "Kleenex" might be a fairly close call if it ever did come down to litigation, though, such as if a competitor decided to use "kleenex" and then argued the term is so ubiquitous in American society as to have become generic. There might be a fair chance they'd win. My sense is that "Xerox" was once headed in the same direction but no longer is–I don't think the word "xerox" seems to be used with nearly the same level of ubiquity as the word "kleenex."

I recall some years back there was a cinema chain, National Amusements, that operated under the "Multiplex Cinemas" brand. Another cinema operator opened a multi-screen theater somewhere in Northern Virginia and ran ads in the paper saying something like "Fairfax's newest multiplex." National Amusements went after them for using their trademark and they either settled or National Amusements won, since the ads were changed–I'm guessing they settled because the change came pretty quickly. (The word "multiplex" obviously has other meanings. Some people use it to refer to road concurrencies. Cassette decks usually have a "multiplex filter"–usually labelled "MPX"–to prevent oversaturation of the medium when recording from FM radio. But National Amusements obtained a trademark on the use of that word in connection with a cinema facility with multiple auditoriums.)

The classic example of a company that failed to police its trademark in that manner was Thermos. They didn't respond when other companies started advertising their insulated drink bottles as "thermos bottles" and ultimately the American courts held Thermos lost their trademark protection as to the word "thermos" when applied to that product. They still have their trademark on that name when they use it on other products, however, such as their tailgating grills.


Edited to add: The brand name perhaps most in danger of genericization in recent years is probably Google as applied to the search engine of that brand because so many people use "google it" as a generic term for searching the Internet.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 01:47:29 PM
To me that IH reminds me of "I ate."  Better yet it sounds like "I Hate" which I am sure some Texans say that about I-45 during rush hour lol!

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Ff%2Ff3%2FI-8.svg%2F200px-I-8.svg.png&hash=89ac03cc25c6659d4be6ef1285daf550a3445ab2)

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2014, 03:36:00 PM
I recall some years back there was a cinema chain, National Amusements, that operated under the "Multiplex Cinemas" brand. Another cinema operator opened a multi-screen theater somewhere in Northern Virginia and ran ads in the paper saying something like "Fairfax's newest multiplex." National Amusements went after them for using their trademark and they either settled or National Amusements won, since the ads were changed–I'm guessing they settled because the change came pretty quickly. (The word "multiplex" obviously has other meanings. Some people use it to refer to road concurrencies. Cassette decks usually have a "multiplex filter"–usually labelled "MPX"–to prevent oversaturation of the medium when recording from FM radio. But National Amusements obtained a trademark on the use of that word in connection with a cinema facility with multiple auditoriums.)

Clearly they also lost that trademark with respect to roads ;) I guess there's more to some people thinking "multiplex" sounds like a movie theater than the similarity to the brand "cinemex".

Quote
Edited to add: The brand name perhaps most in danger of genericization in recent years is probably Google as applied to the search engine of that brand because so many people use "google it" as a generic term for searching the Internet.

Seems to be a hazard of being first to have a particular product.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 01:47:29 PM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 01:05:35 PM
The younger crowd sometimes says "Let's play Nintendo" or "Let's play PlayStation" when they really mean "Let's play video games." We also say "Xerox" instead of "copy."

To bring this back to roads, one term I never liked was referring to an interstate as "The I." Ugh. Sounds like heavy metal band name or the name of a really bad STD or something.  :-D

It is better than IH as Texas would say.  Not that I am knocking on Texas, but it is easier to say one letter than two letters.  To me that IH reminds me of "I ate."  Better yet it sounds like "I Hate" which I am sure some Texans say that about I-45 during rush hour lol!

I think most Texans would agree. The signs may say "I-H" but I have never heard anyone in Texas use the term "I-H" in speaking. I must also agree that many would say "I hate" referring to I-45 or I-35 during rush hour...

When I was in my teens, one of the parents in my Boy Scout troop sent around directions to a campout in Pennsylvania that said to use "IH-95 north to Wilmington." We all wanted to know what the heck "IH-95" was (and my father had lived in Texas for two years in the early 1970s–I was born there–but had never heard that expression).

Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2014, 06:19:59 PMI guess there's more to some people thinking "multiplex" sounds like a movie theater than the similarity to the brand "cinemex".

The metropolitan Dallas/Ft. Worth area is often referred to as the MultiMetroplex. 

Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
....

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2014, 03:36:00 PM
I recall some years back there was a cinema chain, National Amusements, that operated under the "Multiplex Cinemas" brand. Another cinema operator opened a multi-screen theater somewhere in Northern Virginia and ran ads in the paper saying something like "Fairfax's newest multiplex." National Amusements went after them for using their trademark and they either settled or National Amusements won, since the ads were changed–I'm guessing they settled because the change came pretty quickly. (The word "multiplex" obviously has other meanings. Some people use it to refer to road concurrencies. Cassette decks usually have a "multiplex filter"–usually labelled "MPX"–to prevent oversaturation of the medium when recording from FM radio. But National Amusements obtained a trademark on the use of that word in connection with a cinema facility with multiple auditoriums.)

Clearly they also lost that trademark with respect to roads ;) I guess there's more to some people thinking "multiplex" sounds like a movie theater than the similarity to the brand "cinemex".

....

It's not all that unusual for a trademark to apply to one thing but not to another. Witness the long-running battle between Apple (the computer company) and Apple Corps (the Beatles' company) and the various settlements and carve-outs they've reached over the years. Once upon a time, Apple Computer had agreed to confine themselves to computers and not enter the music business (it wasn't quite that simple, but that's the gist of it). The hole in the settlement was that they weren't allowed to distribute music on physical media. A British court found the iTunes Store didn't violate that settlement, and the companies reached a new settlement before the appeal was decided.

I remember reading a trademark case from back in the 1950s or 1960s in which a well-known TV personality sued a guy who owned some sort of electronics-repair business in the Buffalo area and named it after himself. The TV personality claimed the repairman was misleading people into thinking his business was endorsed by a the well-known TV personality. The business owner won because he had used his own name–the court found you have a reasonable right to use your own name–and no reasonable person would think the TV personality was also repairing electronics. The repairman's name? Ed Sullivan. Had he tried to start up his own TV program, it might have been a different story.

One wonders how far this principle would extend if, for example, your last name were McDonald and you wanted to open a burger joint.

But in other words, despite the efforts of some companies (McDonald's being one) to try to claim a "universal" trademark applicable to all industries, it doesn't usually work that way, especially if the name you're using can be seen as descriptive of your product as opposed to something imaginative. So the fact of a company controlling the word "Multiplex" as to movie theatres doesn't mean they control it as to unrelated industries.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 10:35:08 AM
One wonders how far this principle would extend if, for example, your last name were McDonald and you wanted to open a burger joint.

I recall McDonald's had the reverse problem, when it was trying to expand in Scotland and had disputes with local restaurants already named McDonald's.  I don't know how that got resolved, but one of the local restaurants got a lot of free publicity (some on this side of the Atlantic) for its David-vs-Goliath battle against the restaurant chain. 

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 10:35:08 AM

One wonders how far this principle would extend if, for example, your last name were McDonald and you wanted to open a burger joint.

Maybe if you called yourself George McDonald's (or whatever your first name was as long it isn't Ronald ;) )

Burger King  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burger_King_(Mattoon,_Illinois)) and Whataburger have had this problem.

Quote from: oscar on July 24, 2014, 10:46:14 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 10:35:08 AM
One wonders how far this principle would extend if, for example, your last name were McDonald and you wanted to open a burger joint.

I recall McDonald's had the reverse problem, when it was trying to expand in Scotland and had disputes with local restaurants already named McDonald's.  I don't know how that got resolved, but one of the local restaurants got a lot of free publicity (some on this side of the Atlantic) for its David-vs-Goliath battle against the restaurant chain. 

I remember we had a fairly extensive discussion of the McDonald's and "McWords" example in my basic intellectual property class. One common theme many people thought had some logic was the difference between a "real name" beginning with "Mc-" or "Mac-" (such as McDonald or McCartney or MacTavish) and an "artificial conflation" resembling the sorts of names McDonald's develops for their products, such as "McNugget" or "McFlurry" or "McChicken," none of which are reasonably likely to be a real person's last name (aside from the type of idiot who changes his name to something stupid as a publicity stunt or some such). In other words, the artificial terms are far more readily protected than ordinary Scottish and Irish names.

I know McDonald's has lost a few lawsuits against people named McDonald, although "US71" has the right idea–in some cases the courts have ordered the business to use the owner's first name to help distinguish it from the fast-food chain, although there is a restaurant in Illinois owned by a man named Ronald McDonald and he prevailed against the corporation.

---

This fast-food discussion makes me think of the issue, discussed in some other threads, of the increasing tendency of Americans to stop at the same chain restaurants everywhere they go instead of exploring for local flavor and the like. Returning to the original point of this thread, that tendency is similar, in some respects, to the idea of people not knowing the roads and not being able to find their way without a sat-nav or via a route that's not the Interstate. To the extent the Interstate shield might be considered a "brand name" (a reasonable proposition, I think), you could view it similarly to the Golden Arches or Colonel Sanders as being something people look for because they know what to expect.

I actually  think we're entering a bit of another renaissance for local eating options.

Ten, fifteen years ago, it absolutely looked like people were gravitating towards chains on road trips and local restaurants were going away, but I think two things happened that are reversing that trend.

1. People are more health conscious and with few exceptions, chains are perceived as less healthy than non chains, even if that's most likely a bunch of hogwash.
2. Smartphones. Ten, fifteen years ago you had to go to a chain to be guaranteed a certain quality of food- even if that quality wasn't that great, at least it was consistent. On a long road trip, that's a significant factor for a lot of people. Now, apps like yelp and urbanspoon make it easy to find locally owned restaurants with a good reputation. Going to a random greasy spoon instead of the comfortable adequateness of Shoneys isn't a total shot in the dark anymore. These apps and their reviews probably drive food quality up too, especially for businesses that depend on transients.

I think it has less to do with the "eating healthy" and more to do with the perceived uniform blandness of the national chains. Why should I be on a road trip 500 miles from home and eat at a Denny's when I go to a Denny's on a regular basis at home for Toastmasters? Now, I may go to a Waffle House or a Cracker Barrel because neither chain, to my knowledge, is located in California, Nevada, or Oregon. On the other hand, thanks to the advice of this board, I ate at the Pancake Mill in Coos Bay, Oregon. Does Yelp and Urban Spoon help? You bet.

Of course, try telling the little ones that. When I was little, it was either McDonalds or Burger King. (sigh)

I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

That is why I like Denny's because you can sit at the counter.  Even Hooter's are good for single travelers as it is a common place for single men to sit in a station to "look at the girls" and the girls just love the attention and pay you no mind.

However, I work in the food industry and I see a lot of people dine alone in the restaurant including attractive women.  Heck I used to see many girls rent hotel rooms alone that I would deliver room service to as well.  It really is nothing to feel awkward about.

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

I used to think that. Now I do it all the time.

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

Most restaurants have a bar. Sitting at the bar, even if you aren't drinking, gets rid of all of the awkwardness eating alone. And the service is usually nice and quick since the bartender is right there. Eating at restaurant bars is how I survive on business trips.

I generally do drive-thrus (or Sheetz MTO) during daytime hours when traveling, simply because I don't want to waste time sitting still when I could be on the road. At night, if I get fast food, I will take it back to my room. I don't mind flying solo at a place like Cracker Barrel or Golden Corral or Bob Evans. Most Bob Evans restaurants I've been in do have a counter.

Quote from: mtantillo on July 24, 2014, 07:53:04 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

I used to think that. Now I do it all the time.

Same

I really don't care anymore as long as I enjoy the local food.

I often do fast food while on the road because I don't want to waste more time than needed. If possible though, I'll try to find a fast food chain that can't be found outside of that area. For example, if I'm in North Carolina, I'll look for a Cook-Out because I can't find that outside of the South.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 24, 2014, 05:06:58 PM
I think it has less to do with the "eating healthy" and more to do with the perceived uniform blandness of the national chains. Why should I be on a road trip 500 miles from home and eat at a Denny's when I go to a Denny's on a regular basis at home for Toastmasters?

Sadly, I think that what you're citing is exactly the reason why an unfortunate number of people still DO only eat at chains when they're on the road. It's the perceived comfort and safety and knowing exactly what they're going to get.

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

Only if you're being self-conscious. If it really does bother you, a good way to hedge is to go into a sit-down restaurant and sit at the bar.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 24, 2014, 10:45:57 PM
I often do fast food while on the road because I don't want to waste more time than needed. If possible though, I'll try to find a fast food chain that can't be found outside of that area. For example, if I'm in North Carolina, I'll look for a Cook-Out because I can't find that outside of the South.

I saw lots of them during a drive through North Carolina a couple of years ago, but never stopped. After I looked them up online, I wish I had. And now they're expanding into Kentucky and have opened up in Frankfort. Next time I have to go there for work, I know where I'm eating.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 25, 2014, 11:27:03 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 24, 2014, 10:45:57 PM
I often do fast food while on the road because I don't want to waste more time than needed. If possible though, I'll try to find a fast food chain that can't be found outside of that area. For example, if I'm in North Carolina, I'll look for a Cook-Out because I can't find that outside of the South.

I saw lots of them during a drive through North Carolina a couple of years ago, but never stopped. After I looked them up online, I wish I had. And now they're expanding into Kentucky and have opened up in Frankfort. Next time I have to go there for work, I know where I'm eating.

I would definitely encourage you to stop. It's good food for a good price. Decent amount of variety for a fast food place too.

Quote from: US71 on July 23, 2014, 10:38:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 23, 2014, 09:42:23 AM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on July 23, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
In the same vein, I don't think most average people distinguish between a hiighway, a freeway or an expressway. Knowing the differences would help!

Depending on where you're from, there is no difference between the 3.

Folks around Searcy, AR call the US 67 freeway "the interstate"

All freeways in Arkansas are referred to locally as "the interstate".

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 24, 2014, 08:55:18 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2014, 06:19:59 PMI guess there's more to some people thinking "multiplex" sounds like a movie theater than the similarity to the brand "cinemex".

The metropolitan Dallas/Ft. Worth area is often referred to as the Multiplex. 

Metroplex.

Actually sitting at the bar in places like the Outback and Olive Garden are not bad.  You still can order a meal there plus if you sit there you do not have to worry about leaving so soon if you are bored.  When you sit at a table you tend to feel guilty if the place is turning over customers, as if you have nothing to do, as many of us traveling during the short day winter months have to check into a room early to avoid traveling at night, like to stay beyond our meal.  At the bar not so much as usually there are always plenty of empty stools around, so if you hang out long beyond your meal you are not preventing a floor server from getting other potential customers.

However, with that said, I was reading the guide to proper tipping and it says that you should tip double if you plan to stay beyond the normal eating experience time when on the dining room floor because you indeed are preventing that particular server from making more sales by taking up space that would be for the next customer.  At the bar they claim that you should tip one dollar for every drink the bartender brings you including water or free refill soft drinks to cover yourself for all the extra back and forth the bartender does for each non sale visit they make over to you.

Quote from: bugo on July 25, 2014, 12:44:01 PM
Metroplex.

Thanks for the correction.  I knew something wasn't quite right; I've since corrected my earlier post.

On the sub-topic of eating alone at restaurants, be it fast-food, chain or non-chain, I've done them all without feeling awkward; be it while driving on a long trip or at an airport terminal waiting for a flight.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2014, 01:05:16 PM
Actually sitting at the bar in places like the Outback and Olive Garden are not bad.  You still can order a meal there plus if you sit there you do not have to worry about leaving so soon if you are bored.  When you sit at a table you tend to feel guilty if the place is turning over customers, as if you have nothing to do, as many of us traveling during the short day winter months have to check into a room early to avoid traveling at night, like to stay beyond our meal.  At the bar not so much as usually there are always plenty of empty stools around, so if you hang out long beyond your meal you are not preventing a floor server from getting other potential customers.

However, with that said, I was reading the guide to proper tipping and it says that you should tip double if you plan to stay beyond the normal eating experience time when on the dining room floor because you indeed are preventing that particular server from making more sales by taking up space that would be for the next customer.  At the bar they claim that you should tip one dollar for every drink the bartender brings you including water or free refill soft drinks to cover yourself for all the extra back and forth the bartender does for each non sale visit they make over to you.

Standard at bars in the US is $1-$2 per drink or 15-20%, whichever is more. If you get food at the bar just tip 15-20% of the bill like you would with a server. The per drink tip comes into play more often when paying cash for drinks as you go.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 24, 2014, 05:06:58 PM
Of course, try telling the little ones that. When I was little, it was either McDonalds or Burger King. (sigh)

My little ones are really no different - fortunately, they're more demanding of a nearby Five Guys or failing that, a Wendy's. Unless I've actually tried the one-off or local spot myself, I don't quite have the stomach for two additional unfinished meals by the picky ones (or those with mysteriously light and momentary appetites).

Like the road issue, the valuable (and possibly expensive) real estate is right by the exit ramps, so usually the mom-and-pop or the established locale is situated some ways apart from that. Still, a half decent GPS would have it as a point of interest, and any smartphone would, too...as long as one is feeling adventurous.

Quote from: wphiii on July 25, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Only if you're being self-conscious. If it really does bother you, a good way to hedge is to go into a sit-down restaurant and sit at the bar.

Yeah, I'm pretty self-conscious.  I also wonder what you do while waiting for your food.  Take out my kindle?

Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2014, 11:32:14 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty self-conscious.  I also wonder what you do while waiting for your food.  Take out my kindle?

I've seen quite a few solo diners (and even some dining with others) with tablets at the table. Lots of restaurants offer free wi-fi, so it's not like the practice is discouraged. I usually take my phone in with me and will check email, read a few news sites, etc.

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2014, 11:32:14 PM

Quote from: wphiii on July 25, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Only if you're being self-conscious. If it really does bother you, a good way to hedge is to go into a sit-down restaurant and sit at the bar.

Yeah, I'm pretty self-conscious.  I also wonder what you do while waiting for your food.  Take out my kindle?

Or an analog - a book.

Quote from: realjd on July 25, 2014, 06:32:33 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 25, 2014, 01:05:16 PM
Actually sitting at the bar in places like the Outback and Olive Garden are not bad.  You still can order a meal there plus if you sit there you do not have to worry about leaving so soon if you are bored.  When you sit at a table you tend to feel guilty if the place is turning over customers, as if you have nothing to do, as many of us traveling during the short day winter months have to check into a room early to avoid traveling at night, like to stay beyond our meal.  At the bar not so much as usually there are always plenty of empty stools around, so if you hang out long beyond your meal you are not preventing a floor server from getting other potential customers.

However, with that said, I was reading the guide to proper tipping and it says that you should tip double if you plan to stay beyond the normal eating experience time when on the dining room floor because you indeed are preventing that particular server from making more sales by taking up space that would be for the next customer.  At the bar they claim that you should tip one dollar for every drink the bartender brings you including water or free refill soft drinks to cover yourself for all the extra back and forth the bartender does for each non sale visit they make over to you.

Standard at bars in the US is $1-$2 per drink or 15-20%, whichever is more. If you get food at the bar just tip 15-20% of the bill like you would with a server. The per drink tip comes into play more often when paying cash for drinks as you go.

A buck a drink seems to still be standard, which is not all that fair considering how long it has stood relative to inflation.  If I get two drinks I make it $3, and if the experience is really good I'll do $2 on a single.  Percentage is not often considered on drinks alone, in my experience. 

Mostly, my guideline is this: round up whenever it's not a bad experience.  Don't be a cheapskate when taking care of people who take care of you. You probably can afford $2 if you can afford $1, and you will not go broke from tipping well.

Quote from: US81 on July 26, 2014, 10:37:00 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2014, 11:32:14 PM

Quote from: wphiii on July 25, 2014, 09:16:15 AM
Only if you're being self-conscious. If it really does bother you, a good way to hedge is to go into a sit-down restaurant and sit at the bar.

Yeah, I'm pretty self-conscious.  I also wonder what you do while waiting for your food.  Take out my kindle?

Or an analog - a book.

I dig picking up the local paper in a strange place, if one's available, and learning something about where I am.

Of course, if it's a bar, bartenders know a lot of their job is chitchat with customers, so within reason they're an option to talk to a bit.  My favorite bars and bartenders also engender conversation between whatever people happen to be at the bar.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2014, 07:35:20 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

I have no idea how old anyone is, and I avoid drive-throughs because they offer almost no meal I can eat with one hand that has a calorie level consistent with not acquiring a double chin.

I don't bother with the drive through option.  I don't like the idea of eating while driving; seems like a large potential to make a mess, plus I drive a stick shift anyways.

Quote from: bugo on July 26, 2014, 08:37:52 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2014, 07:35:20 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

Drive-thrus always put too much ice in pops so I usually go inside. That way, I don't have to expect water in three hours.

I've tried going through the drive thru but I find that eating and driving impairs my ability to do the driving part of what I am trying to do.

Quote from: jake on July 27, 2014, 07:37:34 PM

Quote from: bugo on July 26, 2014, 08:37:52 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2014, 07:35:20 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

Drive-thrus always put too much ice in pops so I usually go inside. That way, I don't have to expect water in three hours.

Yep, why I go inside and hope the pop dispenser is self-serve.  As I want the drink right now without all that ice getting in the way.

Quote from: Big John on July 27, 2014, 09:56:20 PM

Quote from: jake on July 27, 2014, 07:37:34 PM

Quote from: bugo on July 26, 2014, 08:37:52 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2014, 07:35:20 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

Drive-thrus always put too much ice in pops so I usually go inside. That way, I don't have to expect water in three hours.

Yep, why I go inside and hope the pop dispenser is self-serve.  As I want the drink right now without all that ice getting in the way.

My ex used to always say "light ice" and 9 times out of 10, they'd oblige.

"Pop" LOL.  I live in Oklahoma where everyone says "pop" and I am still not used to it.  I also had a girlfriend in Missouri who said "soda" which still doesn't sound right to me.  Where I come from in Arkansas, everything is a "coke".

Soda comes from a Coke machine (regardless of whose logo is on said machine).

Quote from: The Nature Boy, Ric Flair on July 27, 2014, 09:59:11 PM
My ex used to always say "light ice" and 9 times out of 10, they'd oblige.

Once I was at Queen Wilhelmina State Park and asked for a Pepsi with a half cup of ice.  The old geezer refused to give it to me, so I got angry and got a Coke out of the Coke machine.  What a dick, he refused to sell me what would have been maybe 15 cents more Coke.

Quote from: bugo on July 27, 2014, 10:10:55 PM
"Pop" LOL.  I live in Oklahoma where everyone says "pop" and I am still not used to it.  I also had a girlfriend in Missouri who said "soda" which still doesn't sound right to me.  Where I come from in Arkansas, everything is a "coke".

In my part of North Carolina, some people say "drink" for all carbonated beverages. I imagine it gets confusing if an outsider asks for a drink and gets a soda instead though.

I grew up in eastern NC where we mostly say "soda" so hearing anything else is weird for me. Here's a map of the divide, it's interesting:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscovermagazine.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FWeb%2520exclusives%2F2013%2FJune%2Flanguage%2520maps%2Fsoda-pop.png%3Fmw%3D1000%26amp%3Bmh%3D800&hash=e65baeda7a6f96473af1e641956a59c119c5287a)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 21, 2014, 02:59:42 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on July 21, 2014, 01:14:19 PM
Guess on my part, that fee is what the bank charges the mortgage company for such a service.  The mortgage company, in turn, passes that charge (or part of it) onto their customers.

the question remains.  why is the bank charging for EFT, but not for a check whose last step in processing is the identical EFT?

The point of a "convenience fee" is simply that - they are charging you extra to do it the way that is more convenient for you, because they can. They know that a lot of people will willingly pay extra for the "convenience", so to them it's free money.

For another ridiculous example of this, recently I purchased tickets to a baseball game. I had the option of picking my tickets up at the will call window at the stadium, for which there would be no extra charge. But that requires showing up early and waiting in line. Alternatively, I could download a PDF and print the tickets at home using my own paper and ink... for which I had to pay a $2.50 fee.

It doesn't cost them more to allow you to print your own tickets. But they know people would rather do so. And of course the existence of this fee to do so is not revealed until you've already gone through the process of picking out your seats and completed 90% of the transaction. At this point most people will begrudgingly fork over an extra $2.50.

Quote from: jake on July 27, 2014, 07:37:34 PM

Quote from: bugo on July 26, 2014, 08:37:52 PM
I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

Drive-thrus always put too much ice in pops so I usually go inside. That way, I don't have to expect water in three hours.

I avoid drive-thrus for two reasons:
1) as mentioned, it's easier to make sure they get your order right if you go inside
2) you can't pee using the drive-thru, although if an establishment figures out a way to offer this, I may have to try it. :awesomeface:

I do often prefer to eat while driving on long trips, though, simply because it saves time. Yeah, it may make a mess, but meh, whatever. I just throw trash in the back seat and clean it out when I get a good opportunity. It's especially fun when you unload trash in places where it clearly could not have been locally sourced, I've deposited quite a few empty Sheetz containers in NYC trash cans. :P

Quote from: jake on July 27, 2014, 07:37:34 PM

Quote from: bugo on July 26, 2014, 08:37:52 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2014, 07:35:20 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 24, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I favor fast food chains on roadtrips for one simple reason: I usually travel alone and being by yourself at a sit-down restaurant is just plain awkward.

When you are older, you appreciate being able to pull off the road at a sit-down restaurant, relaxing for an hour, and enjoying a prepared meal. Of course, there is the 21st century when you are whipping out your electronic device to check the map/Facebook/email/whatever.

I'm not much younger than you are but I still prefer to go through the drive through and get my orders to go.

Drive-thrus always put too much ice in pops so I usually go inside. That way, I don't have to expect water in three hours.

The McDonalds 2 Cheeseburger Meal was always great for eating on the road - not much filling to spill on my lap and easy to eat.  Today I will usually get 1 or 2 items from the dollar menu which serves the same purpose (although I try to avoid the fries when doing that...gotta cut back somewhere!).

My wife prefers less ice as well, and usually doesn't have a problem.  For a while I preferred more ice, and you can tell the restaurant people rarely heard that one.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 28, 2014, 01:28:55 AMI avoid drive-thrus for two reasons:
1) as mentioned, it's easier to make sure they get your order right if you go inside

^^This.  Even when I'm not on a long trip; I avoided the drive-thru after getting jipped too many times.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 28, 2014, 01:28:55 AM2) you can't pee using the drive-thru, although if an establishment figures out a way to offer this, I may have to try it. :awesomeface:

Personally, I would've worded such differently so it doesn't reek of TMI.  :)

Another reason I avoid drive-thrus is due to the current cost of gas.  One's burning more gas idling at the drive-thru line than one who parks their car, turns off their engine and goes inside.  Plus, in many instances, the line inside tends to be shorter than those at the drive-thru.

I don't use the drive-thru unless all I want is a drink. I don't care to have the car smelling of fast food, and I don't eat in the car anyway (especially driving a manual shift....I did eat while driving some 20 years ago and it was never a good idea).

Plus, as "PHLBOS" notes, the line inside is usually substantially shorter. It amuses the heck out of me when I pass the KFC/Taco Bell near our neighborhood and I see 12 or 15 cars waiting on line at the drive thru and no line inside. The same people will later be complaining about how much money they spend on gas. I note the same phenomenon when I use a walk-up ATM to avoid the line at the drive-up–I'm usually done with my transaction and on my way long before the people waiting at the drive-thru (and I've never understood why some people are so slow at the ATM).

Eating Taco Bell while driving is definitely not recommended.  I believe it is even codified in NJ law:  NJAC 39:4-97.4: A driver found guilty of consuming a meal provided by a Taco Bell restaurant while operating a motor vehicle on public roads within the state shall be awarded the following motor vehicle points: 2 points if operating a vehicle with an automatic transmission; 3 points if operating a vehicle with a manual transmission; 4 points if consuming a Taco Bell "Mexican Pizza" with either transmission.

A factor to consider is i was told that drive-thru customers get priority over inside customers in service.  If you are the only one inside where there are 15 cars waiting for drive-thru you will still get your food faster, but on more even distribution, the drive-thru wait time will be shorter.

Quote from: Big John on July 28, 2014, 10:32:47 AM
A factor to consider is i was told that drive-thru customers get priority over inside customers in service.  If you are the only one inside where there are 15 cars waiting for drive-thru you will still get your food faster, but on more even distribution, the drive-thru wait time will be shorter.

If such were indeed put in writing and could be proven; that would be a discrimination suit (against non-driver customers) just waiting to happen.

That is a stated policy at many places and driving vs not driving is not a protected class like race or religion, so no, it's not. Besides that, indoor customers have access to tables and restrooms that drivers don't- there's no discrimination there.

There is a logical reason for this too. I was always taught that it was terribly rude to order food for more than one or two people or anything with a special request at the drive thru because it holds up the line, though most people don't seem to care about this anymore. Newcomers like Culvers probably do it right, making you park and wait for good to be brought out.

If somebody orders for ten people at the drive thru, they typically clog up the line behind them, which is why the drive thru has to take priority. If somebody orders for ten inside, the restaurant can get simpler orders out quicker while working on the ten top, maximizing throughput. The restaurant cares about being as efficient as possible, and that often requires giving priority to the drive thru. If people would go back to using the drive thru for its intended purpose as an express lane and not for all to go orders, such a policy would be less necessary, but that doesn't seem to be happening as people get more and more selfish and restaurants don't want to alienate people.

Quote from: corco on July 28, 2014, 11:44:23 AMIf somebody orders for ten inside, the restaurant can get simpler orders out quicker while working on the ten top, maximizing throughput.

yeah, and people always drive in the right lane except when passing.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 27, 2014, 10:52:21 PM

Quote from: bugo on July 27, 2014, 10:10:55 PM
"Pop" LOL.  I live in Oklahoma where everyone says "pop" and I am still not used to it.  I also had a girlfriend in Missouri who said "soda" which still doesn't sound right to me.  Where I come from in Arkansas, everything is a "coke".

In my part of North Carolina, some people say "drink" for all carbonated beverages. I imagine it gets confusing if an outsider asks for a drink and gets a soda instead though.

I grew up in eastern NC where we mostly say "soda" so hearing anything else is weird for me. Here's a map of the divide, it's interesting:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscovermagazine.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FWeb%2520exclusives%2F2013%2FJune%2Flanguage%2520maps%2Fsoda-pop.png%3Fmw%3D1000%26amp%3Bmh%3D800&hash=e65baeda7a6f96473af1e641956a59c119c5287a)

Wow, why so many names for tonic?

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 27, 2014, 10:52:21 PM

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscovermagazine.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FWeb%2520exclusives%2F2013%2FJune%2Flanguage%2520maps%2Fsoda-pop.png%3Fmw%3D1000%26amp%3Bmh%3D800&hash=e65baeda7a6f96473af1e641956a59c119c5287a)

Where is the yellow in this picture? Southern New Hampshire? Oklahoma?

Quote from: 1 on July 28, 2014, 12:24:02 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 27, 2014, 10:52:21 PM

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscovermagazine.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FWeb%2520exclusives%2F2013%2FJune%2Flanguage%2520maps%2Fsoda-pop.png%3Fmw%3D1000%26amp%3Bmh%3D800&hash=e65baeda7a6f96473af1e641956a59c119c5287a)

Where is the yellow in this picture? Southern New Hampshire? Oklahoma?

The choice of yellow in a map that also has green and blue was a bit weird. But it looks to me like Southern New Hampshire is a lighter shade of red but I could be wrong. It would seem weird that that southern NH would randomly use "soft drink" when the surrounding area uses soda (with the exception of some Bostonians).

I've only known one person who ever routinely used the term "soft drink," and he was from North Carolina. About the only place I normally hear that term used has been in various McDonald's TV commercials over the years.

It's pop here.

My Vue hybrid shuts off when the vehicle is stopped in "D" and the brake is depressed, such as at a red light or in a drive-thru.