I was noticing that in the US there are a total of 41 independent cities. 38 of them are in Virginia, one is Baltimore, one other is St. Louis, and the other is Carson City, NV.
I understand how these all operate, but does not Philadelphia, Jacksonville, and even Denver where the respected cities are the counties operate the same way? Also why is not Arlington, VA considered an independent city when it is governed like one as well. I did read into Arlington that was originally Alexandria County until 1920, and it seems that DC giving Virginia back its land was something to do with it. That would explain why Arlington and DC both together form almost a perfect square as it was intended for DC to be a square district. Part of Alexandria North East of VA 7 would have completed the square as King Street runs between the line Arlington/ Fairfax and where the DC Line with MD comes to a head in the Potomac just south of the Wilson Drawbridge.
Anyway, to me it all seems the same whether the city is without a county or is the same entity as the county. Even in NYC as even though it has five counties that are with NYS, all five are the City itself, so even NYC should be an independent city. So what really are the differences other than name classification. Why does VA really call Arlington a county when it could be classified like Richmond as it operates the same?
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 04:51:51 PM
So what really are the differences other than name classification. Why does VA really call Arlington a county when it could be classified like Richmond as it operates the same?
Among the differences, Arlington County doesn't have an elected mayor like Alexandria independent city, just an elected county board, a board chairman elected by fellow board members, and a county manager appointed by the board. Another difference, from the roadgeek standpoint, is that in Virginia independent cities have more control over road signage and maintenance than counties (so independent cities are the place for cutout-hunting), though Arlington County has a special arrangement with the state giving it more control over non-primary routes than does adjacent Fairfax County which has a multitude of state-maintained minor secondary routes.
I don't know all the differences (having lived in Arlington County for more than thirty years, and independent city Falls Church for only a few months), but I would not assume that Arlington "operates the same" as Alexandria.
Just to clarify, Virginia has Richmond County, which is in a different part of the state from, and otherwise completely unrelated to, Richmond independent city.
In the case of Wyandotte County, KS, there are some parts of Wyandotte County which are not part of Kansas City–Edwardsville and Bonner Springs among others. I don't know how the details work, but I would guess that the governments of these towns are free to conduct their own municipal functions and only rely on the WyCo Unified Government for whatever functions a county normally provides to municipal governments.
Local government law is a Big Deal in Virginia and is usually the main topic of at least one essay question on the bar exam. I'll try to distill down some of the key points I remember as much as possible.
–Counties are considered an extension of the Commonwealth and share in the Commonwealth's sovereign immunity except where specifically abrogated (meaning you can't sue them most of the time unless you jump through special hoops).
–Independent cities are not part of the surrounding counties and are created by act of the General Assembly granting a city a charter. A city does not share sovereign immunity and may be sued for various things for which a county cannot. The city has no right to exist absent the charter.
–A city has the powers enumerated in its charter and only those powers unless a state statute is made generally applicable to cities.
–A county has whatever powers the Commonwealth delegates to the counties, but only those powers (this is the Dillon Rule, which is a big deal in Virginia). A county doesn't have a charter like a city does.
–Cities can impose certain taxes counties can't, but cities have certain financial obligations most counties don't (road maintenance being the main one).
–Cities hold local elections sometime in May or June. Counties hold theirs on the normal November date.
–Sometimes cities and counties have an agreement to provide certain unified services. Fairfax City participates in the Fairfax County school system, for example. Rockingham County shares its courts with Harrisonburg City (there are historical reasons behind this).
–School districts in Virginia are not independent. The cities and counties provide schools (sometimes unified, as noted above). Fairfax County has 22 high schools, 23 junior highs, 3 secondary schools (combined junior high and high school), and 196 elementary schools, for example.
One historic peculiarity is that two counties have the word "city" in their names (Charles City County and James City County) but are legally counties for reasons dating back to the 1630s. They're counties because of the form of government created in those areas by King Charles I.
Virginia won't let Arlington become a city, because they don't want Arlington to be able to do anything about high housing costs.
I noticed that Williamsburg is the County Seat of James City County, but it is independent of the county itself.
Also, that in your post 1995, is most likely why VDOT won't assume maintainance in the big cities either. That is why Business US 1 in Fredericksburg is still signed as mainline US 1 even though its been moved over 40 years ago.
ALT US 1 (which is now mainline) is still signed on the Rapannhock River Bridge gantry upon US 1 entering Fredericksburg from the north.
I even noticed that many independent cities do not sign business routes as such anyways and still use old cutout shields. Then there is VA Beach that will not sign neither US 58 or US 60 in many places leaving one lost to find where US 60 really ends and no acknowledgement from US 58 and vice versa its existence.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 08:02:05 PM
I noticed that Williamsburg is the County Seat of James City County, but it is independent of the county itself.
IIRC, the county seat of James City County is outside the Williamsburg city limits, but is in a part of the county with a Williamsburg postal address. That is a common situation in Virginia, with for example much of Fairfax County (including its main government offices in the Fair Oaks area) with the same postal addresses as the independent cities of Fairfax, Alexandria, and Falls Church, and the Richmond postal address extending into Henrico County including the latter's main government offices.
AFAIK, only in southwestern Alaska is there a U.S. county seat physically located in another county (Lake and Peninsula Borough, whose county seat is in King Salmon in Bristol Bay Borough).
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 08:02:05 PM
Also, that in your post 1995, is most likely why VDOT won't assume maintainance in the big cities either. That is why Business US 1 in Fredericksburg is still signed as mainline US 1 even though its been moved over 40 years ago.
ALT US 1 (which is now mainline) is still signed on the Rapannhock River Bridge gantry upon US 1 entering Fredericksburg from the north.
I think route signage in independent cities is handled mostly or entirely by the cities rather than VDOT. Plus is that the cities are where you can still find cutout route markers. Minus is that the cities are sometimes really, really sloppy about route signage (Richmond is a prime offender).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2014, 05:49:37 PM
Local government law is a Big Deal in Virginia and is usually the main topic of at least one essay question on the bar exam. I'll try to distill down some of the key points I remember as much as possible.
Whats the deal with incorporated towns that are NOT independent cities? What kind of powers do those get? ex: Ashland, Herndon, and Newsoms (Southhampton County).
The reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.
Quotethough Arlington County has a special arrangement with the state giving it more control over non-primary routes than does adjacent Fairfax County which has a multitude of state-maintained minor secondary routes.
This is because, unlike every other county in Virginia, Arlington County did not give up its roads to VDOT's predecessor during the Great Depression.
QuoteVirginia won't let Arlington become a city, because they don't want Arlington to be able to do anything about high housing costs.
That has absolutely nothing to do with it...
QuoteI think route signage in independent cities is handled mostly or entirely by the cities rather than VDOT.
Correct. Hoo alluded to this earlier, but except for the freeways (which are still maintained by VDOT), independent cities have maintenance responsibility over the roads in their city. Hence why you see a hodgepodge of route signage in the cities.
QuoteThe reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.
Never had that problem during the times I've traveled through Newsoms. Heck, I haven't ever even seen a cop in that area.
Regarding Virginia independent cities, something Hoo missed on his list is the requirement that all independent cities must provide the same services/governmental functions that a county does.
It should also be noted that there are at least two cases of independent cities that were created in order to avoid annexation by another cities. This is SOLELY the reason why Virginia Beach was created out of Princess Anne County (to avoid annexation by Norfolk), and is a big reason (but not the only one) behind the creation of Chesapeake.
Towns are part of the county but handle certain things on their own. You have to register your car with the town, for example. I don't really remember the story there (hey, I took the bar exam 16 years ago and I don't practice local government law). There are a number of instances of independent cities that have "reverted" to town status–Clifton Forge comes to mind (in part because I have some friends there). The town carries a much smaller financial burden than a city does.
As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county. Charlottesville is the county seat of Albemarle County, for example, despite being independent (God knows I remember standing on line to get my county sticker one year at the county office building located in downtown Charlottesville!). Fairfax City used to be the county seat of Fairfax County until the county built a new office complex in the county–but the courthouse and jail are still in Fairfax City.
The reason why VDOT won't assume road maintenance in the independent cities (except for Interstates, certain US routes, and certain primary routes) dates back to the early 1930s. It's state law that VDOT not do so. You can find a reasonable explanation on Wikipedia, and that's the type of article that's less likely to be vandalized because most people aren't interested enough to bother. Of course, now that I said that, NE2 will probably see this and go vandalize the article just to be a prick!
Quote from: froggie on July 23, 2014, 09:29:13 PM
....
Regarding Virginia independent cities, something Hoo missed on his list is the requirement that all independent cities must provide the same services/governmental functions that a county does.
....
I thought it was clear enough I wasn't trying to present an exhaustive list!
Quote from: froggie on July 23, 2014, 09:29:13 PM
Never had that problem during the times I've traveled through Newsoms. Heck, I haven't ever even seen a cop in that area.
http://www.tidewaternews.com/2012/09/07/speeding-motorists-fund-72-of-newsoms-budget/
They generally sit after the 20mph drop on the westbound side of General Thomas Highway/SR-671. The limit drops are about 1/4 mile long and bam, there is a cop sitting just past some trees at a curve in the road. Whats interesting is the revenue is going to the town. I thought in VA the ticket money went to the state..... unless they are pulling the local ordinance loophole Hopewell was using.
Would all the cities and towns in Connecticut be considered independent then? Remember, CT does not have a county form of government. Counties in CT are for regional purposes and serve no other purpose there as well as some in MA. I think Nantucket County does not have its own county government but falls under the City of Boston for control.
BTW I am learning a lot from the talk about VA here. It is very interesting to learn what goes on inside the commonwealth.
The City and County of San Francisco have the same boundaries and the same government. The Board of Supervisors is the elected body in charge, which is what county elected bodies are called in California, but S.F. has an elected mayor like cities have instead of a county executive like counties have. There is a S.F. Sheriff's Dept., but they have no unincorporated land to patrol so they're a small body.
1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls. I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.
Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.
Edit 2: regarding the Dillon rule, cities in states that have home rule are *very* protective of that status. I remember Charlotte harassing the state to all hell just to adjust a speed limit in a work zone because they didn't have the power to do it themselves.
vvv that's a fantastic article, thanks for sharing.
Quote from: 6a on July 24, 2014, 07:07:33 PM
1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls. I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.
Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.
As I understand it, in theory, cities can still annex land from nearby counties, but there is a "temporary moratorium" on so-called "hostile" annexations of cities by land in an adjoining county.
That "temporary moratorium" was imposed by the Virginia General Assembly sometime in the
1970's 1980's and is still in effect.
Now if a city and county can reach an agreement regarding annexation, then the city
may annex land from an adjoining county. The City of Manassas annexed a fairly large piece of land from Prince William County not so many years ago along Va. 234 (Prince William Parkway).
There is an excellent and comprehensive discussion of annexation in Virginia and related matters in the January 2012 issue of the
The Virginia News Letter (http://www.coopercenter.org/publications/VANsltr0112), put out by the Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service at the University of Virginia.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2014, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: 6a on July 24, 2014, 07:07:33 PM
1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls. I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.
Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.
As I understand it, in theory, cities can still annex land from nearby counties, but there is a "temporary moratorium" on so-called "hostile" annexations of cities by land in an adjoining county.
That "temporary moratorium" was imposed by the Virginia General Assembly sometime in the 1970's and is still in effect.
Now if a city and county can reach an agreement regarding annexation, then the city may annex land from an adjoining county. The City of Manassas annexed a fairly large piece of land from Prince William County not so many years ago along Va. 234 (Prince William Parkway).
Now that you mention that it jogs my memory of a similar situation with Danville and Pittsylvania Co.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 23, 2014, 08:59:44 PM
Whats the deal with incorporated towns that are NOT independent cities? What kind of powers do those get? ex: Ashland, Herndon, and Newsoms (Southhampton County).
The reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.
Again, actual lawyers probably have more specific info...but while there may be a population minimum to *become* a town, if the population falls at a later date the town status stays.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 04:51:51 PM
one is Baltimore,
As I understand it, other cities in Maryland
could become "independent" cities like Baltimore, but have not, probably because as an independent city they would have to take on "county" responsibilities like public schools, a judicial system, a jail and other matters.
Annapolis threatened to secede from Anne Arundel County a few times (mostly in disputes over transportation funding), but nothing ever came of it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2014, 09:36:17 PM
As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county.
Lexington is the county seat of Rockbridge County.
Winchester is the county seat of Frederick County.
Williamsburg is the county seat of James City County.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2014, 07:45:57 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2014, 09:36:17 PM
As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county.
Lexington is the county seat of Rockbridge County.
Winchester is the county seat of Frederick County.
Williamsburg is the county seat of James City County.
The county government office for James City County is just outside Williamsburg city limits, even though it has a Williamsburg postal address.
Frederick and Rockbridge Counties indeed have their county government offices within the city limits of, respectively, Winchester and Lexington.
Albemarle County has two county government office buildings, one within Charlottesville city limits and the other just south of the city. The main county office seems to be the one within Charlottesville city limits.
Where you find the courthouses for Virginia cities and counties may be a different story, especially for those with consolidated court systems. This can be a headache for the subspecies of county-counters (some of whom I met at the Extra Miler Club annual meeting in Rochester last weekend) who try to visit or photograph the courthouse in each jurisdiction they count as "visited".
The City of Fredericksburg has also gotten bigger since 1990 to obtain what is now the Central Park development off I-95/VA 3. It had been a golf course and Spotsylvania County agreed to let Fredericksburg have it if the city would also take the area where Fall Hill Ave crosses I-95 which was a higher crime area at the time. Spotsy has regretted this move many times since as Central Park is a huge revenue stream for Fredericksburg which was able to lower property taxes while maintaining a high level of services...
A list of former Independent Cities in Virginia:
These reverted back to towns:
South Boston
Clifton Forge
Bedford
These were absorbed/merged into larger cities:
Denbigh
Warwick
Phoebus
South Norfolk
One was renamed:
Nanesmond
The list in 1932: Alexandria, Bristol, Buena Vista, Charlottesville, Clifton Forge, Covington, Danville, Fredericksburg, Hampton, Harrisonburg, Lynchburg, Martinsville, Newport News, Petersburg, Portsmouth, Pulaski, Radford, Richmond, Roanoke, Salem, S. Boston, S. Norfolk, Staunton, Suffolk, Waynesboro, Winchester
Mapmikey
I don't have much to add to what the others have said.
Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City). They want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose. I'm not sure what the process would involve–I think a referendum is a prerequisite to the General Assembly doing anything about it–but I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years. The cost of road maintenance would be SUBSTANTIAL and the people who are interested in the idea seem to be doing their best not to mention that as a city, we'd have to maintain our own roads instead of VDOT doing it. I've heard some people suggest Fairfax could do a better job than VDOT, which may be true, but there's that issue of paying for it.
Quote from: 6a on July 24, 2014, 07:07:33 PMThe city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls.
Didn't we have a huge blowup on a thread here several months ago where someone claimed that people living in suburbs were cheating the city, because they get all the benefits of living in a metro area (jobs, cultural activities, etc.) without having to pay for them?
At any rate, this isn't the case in Kentucky. Property owners within city limits pay taxes to both the city and the county, and there is no credit to offset the difference. I get tax bills from both the city and county on property I own within the city limits.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
Recently some Democrats ... want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose.
Well, THAT certainly reinforces political stereotypes. :-D
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City).
They could go with Fairfax County City, to go along with James City County and Charles City County. ;-)
Or maybe they could seek a merger with Fairfax city?
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
I don't have much to add to what the others have said.
Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City). They want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose. I'm not sure what the process would involve–I think a referendum is a prerequisite to the General Assembly doing anything about it–but I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years. The cost of road maintenance would be SUBSTANTIAL and the people who are interested in the idea seem to be doing their best not to mention that as a city, we'd have to maintain our own roads instead of VDOT doing it. I've heard some people suggest Fairfax could do a better job than VDOT, which may be true, but there's that issue of paying for it.
VDOT would still be sending money for road maintenance. In fact I thought I read somewhere that VDOT would be forced to send MORE money if Fairfax County <b>either</b> opted out of VDOT maintenance or became an independent city.
Several links on this page that discuss jurisdictional funding though not where VDOT is responsible for the maintenance themselves.
Mapmikey
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2014, 09:38:44 PM
Didn't we have a huge blowup on a thread here several months ago where someone claimed that people living in suburbs were cheating the city, because they get all the benefits of living in a metro area (jobs, cultural activities, etc.) without having to pay for them?
The City of Fredericksburg is cheaper tax-wise than the two surrounding counties (Spotsylvania and Stafford), by quite a bit in some areas of taxation. I'm willing to bet this is true for a lot of the smaller independent cities (by land area). In fact, maybe I'm cheating
them as I get to use their landfills.
Mapmikey
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years.
Salem became an independent city in 1967, graduating from town status. This was another gambit to avoid annexation by an adjacent independent city (Roanoke).
Virginia Beach and Chesapeake cities, mentioned above, were each formed by the merger of a county with an existing independent city. Would something like that be a less onerous process for Fairfax County?
Quote from: oscar on July 24, 2014, 10:19:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years.
Salem became an independent city in 1967, graduating from town status. This was another gambit to avoid annexation by an adjacent independent city (Roanoke).
....
I believe that's 47 years ago. Even without doing the math I'd have a pretty good reason to know it'd have to be more than 41 years ago.... :-D
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 10:21:35 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 24, 2014, 10:19:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 24, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years.
Salem became an independent city in 1967, graduating from town status. This was another gambit to avoid annexation by an adjacent independent city (Roanoke).
....
I believe that's 47 years ago. Even without doing the math I'd have a pretty good reason to know it'd have to be more than 41 years ago.... :-D
Yeah, I forgot to mention that Salem was the last one, more recent than Virginia Beach and Chesapeake.
BTW, Salem city apparently nominally is still the county seat for Roanoke County, as it was before the city was created. When Salem was created, it let the county keep its courthouse and jail there, but the county's administrative offices moved out of the city (but apparently are now within the city limits of adjacent Roanoke city).
Last one to do it was Suffolk in 1974. So yes it's been 40 years since it was done.
Regarding an earlier comment of 6a's, state law still allows a county to become an independent city...it's all laid out in Title 15.2, Chapter 39 (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC15020000039000000000000) of the Code of Virginia. Per Section 15.2-3907, there is a population minimum, but it's not nearly as high as 6a suggested. The jurisdiction can be as low as 20,000 in population if they have a population density of at least 300 people per square mile, otherwise the county must have at least 50,000 in population and a population density of at least 140 people per square mile.
In addition, per Section 15.2-3918, any county that becomes an independent city may continue to have VDOT maintain/operate the streets for a period up to 10 years after becoming an independent city. This would give the new city time to create/phase-in their own transportation office.
Poquoson - 1975
Manassas Park - 1975
Suffolk was the City of Nanesmond from 1972-74 before becoming merging with the previously long-existing City of Suffolk
Loose ends from other posts:
There was also an Elizabeth City County until 1952
There was a City of Manchester until 1910 (became part of Richmond)
Mapmikey
Quote from: oscar on July 23, 2014, 08:15:00 PM
AFAIK, only in southwestern Alaska is there a U.S. county seat physically located in another county (Lake and Peninsula Borough, whose county seat is in King Salmon in Bristol Bay Borough).
Two counties in South Dakota have seats outside of their jurisdictions. Shannon and Todd counties were two of the last three unorganized counties in the state, and they were granted their charters in 1983. Shannon County contracts with Fall River County for its Auditor, Treasurer, and Registrar of Deeds, placing the seat of government in Hot Springs. Todd County contracts with Tripp County for those three officers, placing its seat of government in Tripp County. And I thought the idea that Leelanau County moved its seat a decade ago out of the Village of Suttons Bay into a section of Suttons Bay Township was weird enough. (There are a few county seats in unincorporated communities, but that's the only one credited directly to a township.)
I know parts of Maine and (I think?) northern New Hampshire have those unorganzied townships. I do know that there are no independent cities in New England. The closest independent city I can even think of is Baltimore. :P
Staying in the northeast...I know city functions for Philadelphia were made coterminous with Philadelphia County, PA years ago.
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 24, 2014, 10:01:07 PM
Several links on this page that discuss jurisdictional funding though not where VDOT is responsible for the maintenance themselves.
Mapmikey
forgot to include the link... http://www.virginiadot.org/business/local-assistance-programs.asp#Urban Highways
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2014, 07:37:07 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2014, 04:51:51 PM
one is Baltimore,
As I understand it, other cities in Maryland could become "independent" cities like Baltimore, but have not, probably because as an independent city they would have to take on "county" responsibilities like public schools, a judicial system, a jail and other matters.
Annapolis threatened to secede from Anne Arundel County a few times (mostly in disputes over transportation funding), but nothing ever came of it.
Takoma Park threatened to secede from Montgomery and Prince George's counties (it was in both before the county boundary changed) to operate its own school system, but city officials in Takoma Park wanted the counties to pay for that school system. How well that went over is left to the reader as an exercise.
This is an interesting read so far as we do not have independent cities in Illinois. We do have, with the exception of the City of Chicago, school districts (and many other districts) that are not co-terminus with county or municipal boundaries. Thus, a municipality can span 5 or 6 school districts and 3 or 4 counties, and those same school districts may be in multiple counties.
QuoteWe do have, with the exception of the City of Chicago, school districts (and many other districts) that are not co-terminus with county or municipal boundaries. Thus, a municipality can span 5 or 6 school districts and 3 or 4 counties, and those same school districts may be in multiple counties.
Same thing in Minnesota, with the exception of the "Special School Districts" in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
Quote from: froggie on July 25, 2014, 06:17:23 PM
QuoteWe do have, with the exception of the City of Chicago, school districts (and many other districts) that are not co-terminus with county or municipal boundaries. Thus, a municipality can span 5 or 6 school districts and 3 or 4 counties, and those same school districts may be in multiple counties.
Same thing in Minnesota, with the exception of the "Special School Districts" in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
The Hanover, NH - Norwich, VT district crosses state lines. I'm not sure where else that's done.
Quote from: froggie on July 24, 2014, 11:08:09 PM
Regarding an earlier comment of 6a's, state law still allows a county to become an independent city...it's all laid out in Title 15.2, Chapter 39 (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC15020000039000000000000) of the Code of Virginia. Per Section 15.2-3907, there is a population minimum, but it's not nearly as high as 6a suggested. The jurisdiction can be as low as 20,000 in population if they have a population density of at least 300 people per square mile, otherwise the county must have at least 50,000 in population and a population density of at least 140 people per square mile.
There might be a bit of a misunderstanding there...I was referring to Arlington's inability to become a city because it's
too big. Wikipedia tells me the magic number is 1000 people per square mile in Virginia, but that's not sourced in the article. I was thinking of something like the system in NC where special laws are passed to include only Mecklenburg County using wording like "only in counties over 750,000 in size." In VA it's apparently "only in counties over 1000/sq mi."
I did mention something about towns shrinking under the limit to incorporate but that's another ball of wax entirely. Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: 6a on July 25, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
There might be a bit of a misunderstanding there...I was referring to Arlington's inability to become a city because it's too big. Wikipedia tells me the magic number is 1000 people per square mile in Virginia, but that's not sourced in the article. I was thinking of something like the system in NC where special laws are passed to include only Mecklenburg County using wording like "only in counties over 750,000 in size." In VA it's apparently "only in counties over 1000/sq mi."
Fairfax County, which has toyed with becoming an independent city, would have a similar issue if 1000 people/square mile is indeed the maximum density for a city. Fairfax County has a much larger area than Arlington, but also a much higher population. Its population/square mile is about 2,657.
Arlington County's ratio is about 8,508:1.
I haven't yet searched the Virginia Code to find out what the magic number, if any, really is. Maybe 1995hoo will beat me to the punch.
Quote from: oscar on July 25, 2014, 07:51:06 PM
Quote from: 6a on July 25, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
There might be a bit of a misunderstanding there...I was referring to Arlington's inability to become a city because it's too big. Wikipedia tells me the magic number is 1000 people per square mile in Virginia, but that's not sourced in the article. I was thinking of something like the system in NC where special laws are passed to include only Mecklenburg County using wording like "only in counties over 750,000 in size." In VA it's apparently "only in counties over 1000/sq mi."
Fairfax County, which has toyed with becoming an independent city, would have a similar issue if 1000 people/square mile is indeed the maximum density for a city. Fairfax County has a much larger area than Arlington, but also a much higher population. Its population/square mile is about 2,657.
Arlington County's ratio is about 8,508:1.
I haven't yet searched the Virginia Code to find out what the magic number, if any, really is. Maybe 1995hoo will beat me to the punch.
Not tonight or tomorrow. Got to visit the eye doctor in the morning and we're going to the Billy Joel concert tomorrow night. So please feel free to find it before I do! :-D
Criteria is found here: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-3907 for a county to become a city
There is additional criteria that exists for a town within a county that has just become a city, if that town wishes to become its own city instead of being in the larger city that was created by county conversion: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-3916
Does not seem to be anything regarding being too big. Falls Church exceeds the supposed magic threshold (6900:1) as does Manassas Park (5640:1), Portsmouth (2000:1); Hampton (2675:1); Salem (1700:1); Richmond (3415:1); Petersburg (1400:1); etc. I searched several more before giving up and they were all over 1000:1 except Poquoson which was 150:1.
Mapmikey
QuoteThere might be a bit of a misunderstanding there...I was referring to Arlington's inability to become a city because it's too big.
No it isn't. As mapmikey noted (and I can confirm having read through the state statutes myself), there is no upper limit...just the lower limit that I cited in my previous post.
Wait, are you trying to tell me something on Wikipedia is wrong? My world... ;)
Edit: To be more on topic, does anyone have information on a similar situation with consolidated governments? Athens-Clarke, GA, Indianapolis-Marion, Lexington-Fayette, KY, and Nashville-Davidson (I think) come to mind right away. Are those areas banned from further annexation? I know in Ohio a city adjust township boundaries if needed, in cases of annexing an area outside its "home" township. They can even make the township jump a county line (Dublin & Washington Twp.) but that's a township. I could only imagine a consolidated government trying to jump county lines might cause some issues but is it actually forbidden?
Lexington-Fayette has what's called an urban services boundary. I'm not sure the process by which land outside that area gets to be included.
The Census Bureau listed Petersburg as separate from any county for the first time in 1890; I'm guessing because it was formed from parts of Chesterfield, Dinwiddie, and Prince George Counties. It was footnoted as "independent since 1880." (presumably shortly after the census was taken).
Charlottesville (under Albemarle), Fredericksburg (under Spotsylvania), and Williamsburg (under James City) were listed under their respective counties but footnoted as "independent since 1880."
Alexandria, Danville, Lynchburg, Manchester (listed as a city and a district), Norfolk, Portsmouth, Richmond, Roanoke, Staunton, and Winchester were listed under their respective counties as cities but not footnoted as independent.
Bristol, Buena Vista, Newport News (listed as a town and a district), and Radford were listed as towns (and hence county subdivisions) in the census of 1890.
These 18 jurisdictions were broken out separately from any counties in the census of 1900. (In anticipation of the adoption of the Constitution of 1902?) Although John Long of Newberry Library mentions nothing about Petersburg's connection to Chesterfield County in his historical GIS. Also his 1902 western boundary of Petersburg was clearly a stray pencil mark or a fold in the map and clearly not a county boundary at all. I pointed this out to him but he denied he had made a mistake.
Various state constitutions prior to 1902 explicitly named the cities of Richmond, Williamsburg, Norfolk (also the borough of Norfolk 1776-1830), Petersburg (also the town of Petersburg 1830), Portsmouth, and the towns of Lynchburg, Staunton, and Fredericksburg separately from their counties in describing house, senate, and judicial districts.
I'm inclined to think that the Census Bureau is right, but maybe others can shed some light.
I'll have to check out Maryland, Missouri, and Nevada.
Quote from: 6a on July 26, 2014, 10:59:40 AM
Edit: To be more on topic, does anyone have information on a similar situation with consolidated governments? Athens-Clarke, GA, Indianapolis-Marion, Lexington-Fayette, KY, and Nashville-Davidson (I think) come to mind right away. Are those areas banned from further annexation?
As far as I know, no state allows county boundaries to be changed unilaterally by a county; presumably they can annex any municipality within the county that agrees to be dissolved (or would automatically be deemed to have annexed the municipality if it did abandon its charter), but a consolidated city-county that annexed land outside its boundary would no longer really be consolidated.
While not the exact situation in question, when Macon and Bibb County (Ga.) were consolidated in January, the small portion of Macon in Jones County was deliberately de-annexed from Macon to avoid the situation where the consolidated commission would have authority over part of Jones County. (There is an interlocal services agreement now allowing Macon-Bibb to continue trash collection services in the ex-Macon part of Jones.) As far as I know, the idea of changing the county boundary to align with the city boundary in that area was never broached, even though that would be within the legislature's power.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 26, 2014, 06:23:26 PM
Lexington-Fayette has what's called an urban services boundary. I'm not sure the process by which land outside that area gets to be included.
My daughter recently moved to Lexington. From dealing with relators and such, I get the following idea:
- The governments of the city and county are merged. But the state still considers them to be seperate, the various county offices lost their powers to city officers. The county government (Judge Executive, Fiscal Court, etc) still exists, but has only only a few remnant powers, mostly ceremonial, as the city governement has the real power. The Sheriff still exists, but just serves warrants and court papers and provides bailifs, as the city police do the cop work.
- Everybody in the whole county votes in the city elections, even if you live outside the "urban services boundry" on a one person-one vote basis (meaning representatives from rural areas vote on legislation that does not effect their voters.)
- If you live outside the "boundry" you get less services from the city/county. And you pay less taxes. There is a road near my daughter's new place that is the boundry in that area. On one side the city picks up the trash, on the other you have to deal with it yourself. I think fire, parks, and other services are likewise independent outside the boundry. However the police work the whole county. The "rural" area is mostly the eastern edge of the county.
- The process of moving the boundry works pretty similar to annexiation in other places. However, it has to end (barring a Constitution amendment) at the county line, because only Fayette County is Constitutionally authorized to have such a government.
Over here in WV, Fairmont (dying rust belt town) has made noise about merging with the county, as such a thing would be the largest city in the state by population and allow it to tax most of the retail developments which are outside of town. Morgantown (which is hemmed in by more affluent unincorporated areas and small towns, also has made such noise, but neither is going anywhere. People have no need of a city government that provides no services.
Your assessment of Lexington is pretty spot-on, but Louisville and Jefferson County have also merged. However, unlike Fayette county, there are other incorporated cities inside Jefferson that were not part of the merger.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 28, 2014, 01:24:43 PM
Your assessment of Lexington is pretty spot-on, but Louisville and Jefferson County have also merged. However, unlike Fayette county, there are other incorporated cities inside Jefferson that were not part of the merger.
Quote from: 6a on July 26, 2014, 10:59:40 AM
Wait, are you trying to tell me something on Wikipedia is wrong? My world... ;)
Edit: To be more on topic, does anyone have information on a similar situation with consolidated governments? Athens-Clarke, GA, Indianapolis-Marion, Lexington-Fayette, KY, and Nashville-Davidson (I think) come to mind right away. Are those areas banned from further annexation? I know in Ohio a city adjust township boundaries if needed, in cases of annexing an area outside its "home" township. They can even make the township jump a county line (Dublin & Washington Twp.) but that's a township. I could only imagine a consolidated government trying to jump county lines might cause some issues but is it actually forbidden?
Our City-Parish government in Baton Rouge works in this matter (and presumably this works similarly with Lafayette Consolidated Government and Houma-Terrebonne Consolidated Gov't):
- For all practical purposes the executive and legislative functions of the City of BR and the Parish of East Baton Rouge are one and the same. There is a Mayor-President representing both city and parish in one office, and a Metropolitan Council that encompasses 12 single member districts covering the entire parish.
- Three other incorporated cities exist, with their own mayors, city councils, city services, etc.
- There are Departments of Public Works, Planning, Community Development, Finance etc. that have responsibility for the entire parish outside the three other incorporated cities. Some interaction occurs with the other cities. For example, DPW continues to maintain select major roadways in the City of Central. Also we attempt to collaborate with the other cities to maintain a unified GIS database with respect to streets, subdivisions, addresses, and lots/parcels.
- Many other functions of government are not completely merged. The city of BR has a distinct boundary which can and does exclude the parish's "unincorporated areas." The practical difference between living in the city versus the parish is that the city is served by BR police and fire while the unincorporated areas are served by the EBR sheriff's office and the independent fire districts. Also, the sales tax rates are slightly different.
- The various constitutional offices (assessor, registrar of voters, etc.) that exist in every parish are considered somewhat semi-independent, as they are headed by separately elected officials. I believe the city-parish is legally responsible for providing them with office space as well as other financial considerations.
In short it is not a true consolidation, but was probably the best that could be assembled from a political perspective back in 1949. The major stumbling block, IMO, is the continued distinction between the City of BR and the unincorporated area. In the Plan of Government, the city of BR is defined as the "urban area" of the parish and the unincorporated area is defined as the "rural area." (There is also an "industrial area" comprising 6 industrial districts which are basically areas where heavy industries [think refineries] get free reign while also providing some of their own services.)
The trouble is that the actual urban area has far outrun the city limits for some time now. For the first twenty-five or so years after 1949, the city was fairly aggressive in annexing newly developed outlying areas. However, Louisiana law pertaining to annexation is fairly restrictive - basically, the majority of citizens in an area have to formally petition to be included in the city limits. Over time, the differences in service provision between the "urban" and "rural" areas became minor, thus removing any incentive for annexation into the city limits. So the unincorporated area now includes large swaths of suburban development, including many of BR's major retail centers. This makes the city of BR appear to be smaller than it actually is, and leaves us vulnerable to incorporation movements such as St. George (search online for a description, it's too convoluted and distressing to explain here).
Quote from: lordsutch on July 26, 2014, 11:18:04 PM
While not the exact situation in question, when Macon and Bibb County (Ga.) were consolidated in January, the small portion of Macon in Jones County was deliberately de-annexed from Macon to avoid the situation where the consolidated commission would have authority over part of Jones County. (There is an interlocal services agreement now allowing Macon-Bibb to continue trash collection services in the ex-Macon part of Jones.) As far as I know, the idea of changing the county boundary to align with the city boundary in that area was never broached, even though that would be within the legislature's power.
According to List of counties in Michigan on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Michigan):
QuoteThere are many cities and villages that span county boundaries in Michigan, including its capital, Lansing. For a few years during the early 1970s, split cities briefly had authority to petition to change the county boundaries to accord with the city boundaries. The only city to take advantage of this brief opportunity was New Baltimore (previously split between Macomb County and St. Clair County; now completely in Macomb). This transfer of territory from St. Clair to Macomb was the only county boundary change in Michigan since the early 20th century.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2014, 11:34:31 AM
Would all the cities and towns in Connecticut be considered independent then? Remember, CT does not have a county form of government.
Depends on how you define "independent". In the sense that municipal governments in CT have no county government above them, yes. Indeed, counties in CT exist only historically/culturally, they have absolutely zero legal meaning.
But despite having no legal status, CT's counties do still have definite boundaries, and all municipalities are within one geographically. What makes an independent city "independent" from a county clinching perspective is that it is not part of any county and therefore must be visited separately as a county-equivalent in order to clinch.
In this regard, cities such as Philadelphia and San Francisco which are coterminous with their respective counties may be considered de facto independent cities from a county clinching perspective. But legally speaking the meaning will vary from state to state.
Is Connecticut the only state to have completely abolished county governments? I know that the New England states largely disregard counties, but even Massachusetts maintains county sheriffs whereas Connecticut doesn't.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 28, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
Is Connecticut the only state to have completely abolished county governments? I know that the New England states largely disregard counties, but even Massachusetts maintains county sheriffs whereas Connecticut doesn't.
That's interesting. Who serves legal papers, attaches wages per court order, and provides bailiffs for the local courts in Connecticut?
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 28, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
Is Connecticut the only state to have completely abolished county governments?
Rhode Island abolished county government in 1840, long before Connecticut did (1960).
In Massachusetts some counties have government, but others do not.
Quote from: kkt on July 29, 2014, 12:09:04 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 28, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
Is Connecticut the only state to have completely abolished county governments? I know that the New England states largely disregard counties, but even Massachusetts maintains county sheriffs whereas Connecticut doesn't.
That's interesting. Who serves legal papers, attaches wages per court order, and provides bailiffs for the local courts in Connecticut?
Connecticut has State Marshals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_State_Marshal) that perform these duties.
Quote from: kkt on July 29, 2014, 12:09:04 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 28, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
Is Connecticut the only state to have completely abolished county governments? I know that the New England states largely disregard counties, but even Massachusetts maintains county sheriffs whereas Connecticut doesn't.
That's interesting. Who serves legal papers, attaches wages per court order, and provides bailiffs for the local courts in Connecticut?
Connecticut just created a statewide agency that hires what they call "state marshals" to handle all of that. I'm not sure what Rhode Island did though.
Rhode Island is so small, the entire state is essentially an independent county.
Quote from: vdeane on July 29, 2014, 09:22:35 PM
Rhode Island is so small, the entire state is essentially an independent county.
I would actually be interested in seeing a list of counties that are bigger than Rhode Island. It would probably be a shockingly long list.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 29, 2014, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 29, 2014, 09:22:35 PM
Rhode Island is so small, the entire state is essentially an independent county.
I would actually be interested in seeing a list of counties that are bigger than Rhode Island. It would probably be a shockingly long list.
It is shockingly long.
Rhode Island: 1,212 sq. mi.
The first 104 that are larger:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area)
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 29, 2014, 09:34:48 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 29, 2014, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 29, 2014, 09:22:35 PM
Rhode Island is so small, the entire state is essentially an independent county.
I would actually be interested in seeing a list of counties that are bigger than Rhode Island. It would probably be a shockingly long list.
It is shockingly long.
Rhode Island: 1,212 sq. mi.
The first 104 that are larger:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_counties_in_the_United_States_by_area)
The fact that two Maine counties are larger than Rhode Island is somewhat hilarious.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 29, 2014, 09:42:06 PM
The fact that two Maine counties are larger than Rhode Island is somewhat hilarious.
Forget that, two New Hampshire counties are larger than Rhode Island (Grafton and Coos).
Massachusetts even has a county that is larger than Rhode Island (Worcester).
Meanwhile, New York has 16 and Pennsylvania has 7. You could put together a decent list even if you only looked at counties east of the Mississippi!
Perhaps no one is interested but Carson City was Ormsby County up until 1969.
St. Louis (City), MO was broken out separately by USCB for the first time in 1880, with a footnote that it had become independent in 1876.
Baltimore (City), MD was broken out separately in the Census of 1860, although it's not clear that it was a separate jurisdiction.
In 1870 it was not broken out. It was broken out in 1880 and has been ever since.