After the dead malls, here come the decline of Big Box Stores due to the rise of internet sales.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/07/30/demise-of-big-box-stores-walmart-target-predicted-with-rise-of-internet-sales-smartphone-google-shopping-express/
Riiiiight. I sincerely doubt that internet sales will completely supplant most or all brick and mortar retail stores. The internet will supplant catalog sales, but catalog sales have never really endangered brick and mortar stores. I strongly suspect the internet will be treated as catalogs were in the past. There's just something about being able to pick up an item, size it up, check its quality, and then buy it. And as for grocery shopping, the predictions of the internet just make me laugh.
It highly depends on the product. Perishable product and stuff that requires a fitting (clothing, shoes) will lean highly towards a local presence, while non-perishable stuff will lean towards mail order. While I am a avid Amazon shipper, I have items that I want on price watch at CamelCamelCamel (http://markholtz.info/camelcamelcamel) so that when it hits a low price point, I can purchase it.... even it means waiting a few months. There are also some products which Amazon is a little more expensive that local (go figure). Oh, so I have to wait two-three days for an item to be received? OK.
There are some practices of the local stores that I don't like. Ever notice that the DVD player usually only comes with a low-end composite video/audio cable or that the new printer lacks an Lan or USB cable? The retailers insist that the manufacturer do not include such cables because they can turn around and sell that cable separately for $30 with a huge margin.... even bigger than the printer/DVD player itself. That same cable can be obtained from Amazon or Monoprice for no more that $4.
Computer parts? I trust Newegg or Amazon more than I trust the local Fry's Electronics unless it is in a factory sealed box.
Several of the grocery stores around here offer online shopping where you out in what you want and they get the items and bag/box them and you just pick it up at a drive-thru service. One store also offers delivery. I won't use either because I want to examine the meat and produce. I don't want them selecting it for me.
It's too convenient to buy groceries and pick up those other household durable goods, along with a spare USB cable for good measure. Probably the higher-end sales will start to taper off, things like electronics which can usually be found a for a bit less and delivered free. But as long as the average family is spending $100 on groceries alone, they're making pretty good coin on the basic staples. There's always going to be a immediate demand for many things because, well...it broke and you need another one as soon as possible.
If anything, they've hit a bit of an over-saturation point (Home Depot, Lowe's, Wal-Mart, Target, et al), so it may appear they're tapering off by not building as many new sites. But I don't see them just going away anytime soon, except by local revolt to their continued expansion, or some other big player comes into the mix.
Keep track of your favorite retailers that have been put out of business by the Amazon Drone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States)
I think it's more likely that online retailers will continue to put pressure on the big box retail industry, but not actually supplant it. This will mean that retailers will no longer be able to compete purely on price or selection. Instead, customer service is going to become the defining factor, since at Target you can speak face-to-face with a human, whereas you can't really on Amazon. That means the retailers that don't do customer service well (Walmart) will probably suffer more than those that do (Costco).
I have cut back my spending at Walmart considerably due to the construction of a new 24-hour grocery store in Norman. It's called Crest and is part of a locally-owned chain exclusive to Oklahoma City. Crest doesn't have a few things I need from Walmart, but they are competitive on price and their store is a lot less noxious than Walmart (feels like less of a hassle to get in and out). Before they opened, we were at Walmart once a week; now, it's maybe 2 to 3 times a month.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 31, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
Keep track of your favorite retailers that have been put out of business by the Amazon Drone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States)
Most of those went out of business long before Amazon was even a dream.
Quote from: Brandon on July 31, 2014, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 31, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
Keep track of your favorite retailers that have been put out of business by the Amazon Drone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States)
Most of those went out of business long before Amazon was even a dream.
Yes. The company responsible for updating the list for Wikipedia went out of business and added themselves to the list.
It's a good read for many "I remember that place..." moments.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 31, 2014, 05:55:31 PM
It highly depends on the product. Perishable product and stuff that requires a fitting (clothing, shoes) will lean highly towards a local presence, while non-perishable stuff will lean towards mail order.
Another major motivation for local shopping is urgency. If you need or want something ASAP it is often more practical to visit a local store than to pay for overnight shipping. And sometimes you really need whatever it is
now and overnight isn't fast enough for you.
And then there is the question of trust. If you are looking to purchase a used item of some decent value, it is wise to want to see it in person before you buy it so you can verify the condition it's in and, in the case of collector's items, its authenticity.
The role of brick and mortar stores certainly has decreased substantially over the last 15 years, but it isn't likely to completely vanish anytime soon.
It's also worth noting that in the case of retailers for products like books or music, they have gone under not just because people buy online instead but also because the products they sold themselves have become somewhat obsolete (most media these days can theoretically be downloaded, eliminating the need for a physical copy entirely).
People want to touch, handle, and try things on. People want to compare tv pictures.
Anyone remember catalog showrooms? Those were less than satisfying because you couldn't see the stuff. We always ended up returning things, which is also the problem with shopping online.
I'm one of "those" people - you know, the ones who wish they'd sales tax the 'net, because I'm a brick-and-mortar kind of guy. I like to see/handle/try what I'm going to buy before I buy it. And now, being an OTR trucker, I need to be able to walk in and get something right there, or it's going to be a lot of waiting (until the next time I go home, and seeing how I bounce back and forth between two places for my earned time off, that can be as much as a couple months.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2014, 09:07:39 PM
I have cut back my spending at Walmart considerably due to the construction of a new 24-hour grocery store in Norman. It's called Crest and is part of a locally-owned chain exclusive to Oklahoma City. Crest doesn't have a few things I need from Walmart, but they are competitive on price and their store is a lot less noxious than Walmart (feels like less of a hassle to get in and out). Before they opened, we were at Walmart once a week; now, it's maybe 2 to 3 times a month.
I hadn't heard of that place. I may have to check it out at some point. I usually go to Homeland, though, since it's closer.
Not quite a big box, but after reading this thread I stumbled on this article which says Sears is circling the drain: http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/15/news/companies/sears-store-closings/
Quote from: algorerhythms on August 01, 2014, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2014, 09:07:39 PM
I have cut back my spending at Walmart considerably due to the construction of a new 24-hour grocery store in Norman. It's called Crest and is part of a locally-owned chain exclusive to Oklahoma City. Crest doesn't have a few things I need from Walmart, but they are competitive on price and their store is a lot less noxious than Walmart (feels like less of a hassle to get in and out). Before they opened, we were at Walmart once a week; now, it's maybe 2 to 3 times a month.
I hadn't heard of that place. I may have to check it out at some point. I usually go to Homeland, though, since it's closer.
You should definitely give it a shot. It's much cheaper than Homeland for most things. It's located on 24th Ave NW across from Target.
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on August 01, 2014, 12:45:06 PM
I'm one of "those" people - you know, the ones who wish they'd sales tax the 'net, because I'm a brick-and-mortar kind of guy. I like to see/handle/try what I'm going to buy before I buy it. And now, being an OTR trucker, I need to be able to walk in and get something right there, or it's going to be a lot of waiting (until the next time I go home, and seeing how I bounce back and forth between two places for my earned time off, that can be as much as a couple months.
I'm in the process of setting up an online store. The problem with sales taxes on the Internet is that sales taxes are collected by the states, and there is simply no legal mechanism to enforce it. Say I sell something to algorerhythms here: obviously I have to tax him because we both live in Oklahoma and if I don't Oklahoma can certainly come after me for it. Now, if I sell to you and don't tax you, but Illinois wants me to collect tax from you, the Illinois government has no legal way to come after me. I'm not a citizen of IL and the IL authorities cannot come to OK to pick me up. The transaction, for all intents and purposes, happened in Oklahoma, so it's hard to say that I should even collect IL tax.
Part of the fantastic thing about the Internet is that anyone can set up a store and sell to anyone in the world. Having to require businesses to register with all 50 states to collect sales taxes and keep up with the ever-changing sales tax rates all over would be a massive time sink and burden for the business owners. There is also what some states have been looking at, which is to require ecommerce businesses to collect sales taxes for the state that the company is in regardless of whether the customer is in that state or not. The problem this causes is that it puts that state's businesses at a disadvantage compared to those headquartered in other states, meaning that they will soon find their businesses relocating to Delaware or Wyoming or somewhere with a more favorable tax structure.
One other thing–in Oklahoma, at least, all untaxed purchases from outside the state are to be declared on the income tax form and become subject to "use tax". This is of course done pretty much on the honor system, since the state government has no way of knowing what you have bought from out-of-state. As far as I know nobody actually totals up their Amazon purchases and pays use tax on them, even though they are legally required to do that.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 01, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
Not quite a big box, but after reading this thread I stumbled on this article which says Sears is circling the drain: http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/15/news/companies/sears-store-closings/
I can sum that up in two words as to why Sears is circling the drain: Eddie Lampert. The man is a retail moron.
That presumes that he is even attempting to run a retail business. Lampert's behavior is fairly consistent with someone attempting a gradual wind-down of a business.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 01, 2014, 01:34:44 PM
That presumes that he is even attempting to run a retail business. Lampert's behavior is fairly consistent with someone attempting a gradual wind-down of a business.
Touche. I've suspected for years that all he wants is the money from selling off assets.
There are certain stores that are in trouble, and have been in trouble for awhile. Electronics Stores, for example, are having issues. Best Buy in particular have seen sales declines, and notices the traffic that comes into the store to see and touch the product, but then walks out and orders it on Amazon. Or...they see and touch it, then order it on Amazon, then walk out.
The article - and some of the analysts - may be going a bit extreme with all Big Box stores though. Lowes & Home Depot offer products that I'm not going to order on Amazon. Barnes & Noble looks like a mini Apple Store with all their gadgets on the sales floor. Walmart smartly transitioned into a supermarket retailer. Many retailers are getting smarter too - instead of building 100,000 sq ft buildings, they're buying 70,000 sq ft buildings.
So, yes, people are buying a LOT on the internet. The smart retailers are learning how to co-exist. The others will bite the dust. The era is different from when Woolworths was around then shut down, but the results are the same.
I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, if it's possible at this point. It would scarcely be missed.
Home Depot is not going anywhere. It's not for nothing that they have an entire second set of registers for tradespeople, and that tradespeople get the best customer service in the store (rivaled only by that for folks buying high-value installs of non-stock items like windows and kitchens). The bulk of their business is need-it-now. There are other stores that so almost everything they do better, but not under a single roof or for that cheap.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 04:30:47 PM
I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, or even if it's possible.
Kmart (aka Eddie Lampert) bought Sears. I'm not sure Lampert wants to jettison either until he gets his money out of them.
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on August 01, 2014, 12:45:06 PM
I'm one of "those" people - you know, the ones who wish they'd sales tax the 'net, because I'm a brick-and-mortar kind of guy.
Scott5114 mentioned use tax, but I'll expand on what he said a little. Here in Michigan, we have to pay use tax on any merchandise used in the state of Michigan that would have been subject to sales tax if purchased through traditional means within the state but no sales tax was collected. If an online retailer doesn't collect the Michigan sales tax, then I still have to pay it, albeit indirectly.
Use tax also applies to items bought out of state where the sales tax does not equal 6%. In Wisconsin, for example, sales tax is 5%, so for any items purchased there, I'm supposed to pay 1% to the Michigan Treasury Department if it's used within Michigan. Basically, I get a credit for the sales tax I did pay; I do not get any sort of credit on taxes paid in excess of 6%, say the 7.5% rate in California.
Use tax is handled on our state income tax forms. I have friends that claim a small nominal amount owed to stave off potential issues with an audit rather than keep receipts. Obviously, if I order a big-ticket item that wasn't subject to sales tax, I do track that. Since there's at least one Apple Store in the state, purchases on store.apple.com will be taxed
There is one loophole to all of this: merchandise used outside of the state. If I buy a consumable product (food, cleaning supplies, fuel, etc) and completely use it up outside of the state, I don't owe Michigan use tax on it. We don't tax grocery items anyway, so they'd never be subject to use tax, but you get the idea.
Quote from: Brandon on August 01, 2014, 05:00:00 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 04:30:47 PM
I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, or even if it's possible.
Kmart (aka Eddie Lampert) bought Sears. I'm not sure Lampert wants to jettison either until he gets his money out of them.
Kmart is even worse than Walmart(!) when it comes to employee motivation and morale. The good thing is, there is a lower staffing level at Kmart, thus fewer gloomy employees. The bad thing is this means the experience is slow and frustrating for everyone involved, making gloomier employees.
It's not helpful for anyone to write an email saying "I went to six of your stores in three states and nobody seemed happy to be there," because customer service reps are only really trained to handle specific problems, not company-wide malaise. I know, because I did.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 04:30:47 PM
I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, if it's possible at this point. It would scarcely be missed.
Home Depot is not going anywhere. It's not for nothing that they have an entire second set of registers for tradespeople, and that tradespeople get the best customer service in the store (rivaled only by that for folks buying high-value installs of non-stock items like windows and kitchens). The bulk of their business is need-it-now. There are other stores that so almost everything they do better, but not under a single roof or for that cheap.
In the Midwest, it's Menards. They're better than Home Depot and have a better selection (which is like an Ace or True Value in comparison).
Menard's is indeed a better store. Wish we had them in the East.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 31, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
Keep track of your favorite retailers that have been put out of business by the Amazon Drone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_retailers_of_the_United_States)
And how many of those drones will be flying after Congress hears about some major fatal crash (probably involving a crash with a school bus or over a school playground) or terrorist act? I have some doubts Congress will always be pressing the FAA to open the skies for drones.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
Menard's is indeed a better store. Wish we had them in the East.
We have Lowes.
Quote from: vdeane on August 01, 2014, 07:46:15 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
Menard's is indeed a better store. Wish we had them in the East.
We have Lowes.
Far better at stocking a broader array of hardware items than Home Depot (I will momentarily be heading there for 12" carriage bolts HD doesn't carry), better kept stores, and better signage and organization. Too bad they're late to the game and doomed to be second fiddle.
Quote from: DesertDog on August 01, 2014, 05:23:13 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 01, 2014, 05:00:00 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2014, 04:30:47 PM
I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, or even if it's possible.
Kmart (aka Eddie Lampert) bought Sears. I'm not sure Lampert wants to jettison either until he gets his money out of them.
Well he's starting to try to part off the profitable brands of both companies (cough Sears Holdings...) or rather trying to. They sent out a big intra-company memo a couple years ago about how selling real estate was going to be a big part of future business. If you read between the lines that means closure of stores and attempting to sell the property. Only problem was the recession hit when they did that and Sears Holding was left holding a ton of empty retail buildings. Now Sears Holding is blowing through their cash reserves and can't reinvest in what retail space they have left which in turn means they only fall further behind Target and Wal-Mart. It's only a matter of time before the company goes under and is parted off for brands like Sears, Craftsman, Sears Auto, Kenmore, ect.... The worst thing that ever could have happened to either company was Eddie Lampert getting his fangs into either one of them; the guy has proven again and again that he doesn't have a clue how to run a retail business.
Yes, right here. His entire modus operandi was contingent on selling the real estate. When that didn't work, his ego decided that he could run a brick and mortar business better than folks who'd been doing it all their lives, with him screwing up everything in the process. He thinks that if he can monetize the Craftsman and Kenmore brands it'll gin up some more cash for the company at a time when they never bothered to spend to update their stores.
I grew up with Sears (my mom retired from there in the late 80s just ahead of the first major downsizing of the company) and when I stepped into one recently I was astonished at the lack of foot traffic.
Eddie Lampert, bullshit artist.
(God I miss the retail-worker.com Sears Holdings board...)
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 01, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
The problem with sales taxes on the Internet is that sales taxes are collected by the states, and there is simply no legal mechanism to enforce it. Say I sell something to algorerhythms here: obviously I have to tax him because we both live in Oklahoma and if I don't Oklahoma can certainly come after me for it. Now, if I sell to you and don't tax you, but Illinois wants me to collect tax from you, the Illinois government has no legal way to come after me. I'm not a citizen of IL and the IL authorities cannot come to OK to pick me up. The transaction, for all intents and purposes, happened in Oklahoma, so it's hard to say that I should even collect IL tax.
Indeed, there is no established federal standard on this matter. The supreme court last year declined to hear a case about it. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/02/supreme-court-amazon-internet-sales-tax/3805279/)
Amazon has wrangled with various states over whether they are required to collect sales tax from customers in states where they have no physical presence. For years, you paid no sales tax for an item from Amazon if you had it shipped to an address in Connecticut, Massachusetts, or Virginia (and probably others as well). As of last fall customers in those states are now paying sales tax, since deals have been struck.
Kentucky levies a tax similar to what bulldog1979 described. It's called "sales and use tax" and the mechanics are similar to what he describes. If you buy something from an online or catalog retailer and don't pay sales tax, you're supposed to pony up 6 percent on your income tax return. If you buy something in a state that has a tax rate lower than 6 percent, you're supposed to remit the difference. But you get no tax credit for buying something in sales tax hell (a/k/a Tennessee). Back in the day, one of the prime examples used as the type of purchases on which use taxes needed to be paid was records or tapes ordered from a club like Columbia House or BMG (I was a member of both).
(People from my area go to Tennessee often to shop, specifically the outlet malls in Sevierville and Pigeon Forge. I understand wanting to go to the Smokies and the tourist traps for vacation, but to shop? By the time you buy gas and pay Tennessee's ungodly sales tax rates, it's probably cheaper to buy here in Kentucky).
For online retailers, if the company has a physical presence (nexus) in the state, it has to levy sales tax on online orders. Amazon used to be tax-free until they opened a couple of distribution centers in Kentucky. Ditto for Apple until they opened a couple of Apple Stores in malls in Louisville and Lexington. Zappos? Forget it. They have a fulfillment center south of Louisville.
Kmart and Sears will both probably be gone in their current configurations by 2017. In the (still open) Kmarts that I know of, not one of them has been remodeled on the inside or outside and Sears has barely gotten facelifts (due to new logos and cashier relocations).
It used to be that a Sears parking lot on a weekend would be teeming with cars, especially near the entrances closest to the hardware / auto departments. On a recent Saturday morning, I passed by a Sears, and could count the number of cars parked by those entrances on my two hands. My town just added a Sears Outlet store this spring, despite the Sears and Kmarts being ghost towns. I'm still waiting to see which of the two older stores close first.
I always thought Sears Outlet was just a fancy name for Kmart! :)
I'm honestly surprised Kmart is around in any capacity. I found myself in one to buy a drink after ordering pizza (the pizza place was in the same plaza as a Kmart). The whole interior felt very 90s.
Some actually stay busy. The one near me here in Massillon OH always has a fair number of cars at it. It's not Wal-Mart by any stretch, but during the day there's almost always at least 15-20 cars in the parking lot.
And it's K-Mart, you know only 4 of those are employees.
8 of those cars are there because they're waiting to pay for their purchases at the service desk or jewelry counter, since they tend to have zero checkout lanes open.
I feel bad saying this, but I've definitely used stores as a showroom before. Most recently, I found a pair of running shoes that I wanted for 50% off on the manufacturer's website, so I went to a store that carried them, tried them on, and then went home and ordered the size I needed.
Quote from: DeaconG on August 01, 2014, 10:44:35 PMYes, right here. His entire modus operandi was contingent on selling the real estate. When that didn't work, his ego decided that he could run a brick and mortar business better than folks who'd been doing it all their lives, with him screwing up everything in the process. He thinks that if he can monetize the Craftsman and Kenmore brands it'll gin up some more cash for the company at a time when they never bothered to spend to update their stores.
I grew up with Sears (my mom retired from there in the late 80s just ahead of the first major downsizing of the company) and when I stepped into one recently I was astonished at the lack of foot traffic.
Eddie Lampert, bullshit artist.
(God I miss the retail-worker.com Sears Holdings board...)
I had meant to respond to this and forgot. This was, in essence, the process by which Pabst was dissolved as anything but a marketing and promotion company, bringing with it all kinds of smaller regional brewers. From the early 80s on, ownership bought small and large breweries, disinvested in them, and liquidated their assets except for the brands (Schlitz, Schaefer, Piels, Ballantine, Falstaff, Narragansett, Olympia, etc., etc.). Then it stopped brewing altogether, ultimately stripping down to 200 employees, moving to San Antonio, and contracting all brewing out to Miller. I once heard a figure that its investment of revenues back into the business declined for twenty straight years.
And then, of course, it became cool to drink old-timey beers and Pabst's revenues skyrocketed despite their best efforts. If only the hipsters would glom onto Kenmore and Craftsman.
Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.
the takeaway, as always, is that hipsters are terrible.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 12, 2014, 10:03:18 AM
Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.
While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex. Very interesting and unfortunate history. Great tour though of the main building. It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.
BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 12, 2014, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 12, 2014, 10:03:18 AM
Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.
While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex. Very interesting and unfortunate history. Great tour though of the main building. It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.
BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)
PBR is still brewed in Milwaukee, but by Miller now instead, under contract. The Pabst Brewing Co. is based in Los Angeles, but no longer brews its own beer.
Most of the brewery is being redeveloped into mixed use, condos, retail, entertainment. I'm not sure if you can still tour the old buildings or not.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 12, 2014, 10:36:10 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 12, 2014, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 12, 2014, 10:03:18 AM
Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.
While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex. Very interesting and unfortunate history. Great tour though of the main building. It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.
BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)
PBR is still brewed in Milwaukee, but by Miller now instead, under contract. The Pabst Brewing Co. is based in Los Angeles, but no longer brews its own beer.
Most of the brewery is being redeveloped into mixed use, condos, retail, entertainment. I'm not sure if you can still tour the old buildings or not.
I knew there was some sort of LA connection.
One of the buildings is now a hotel, which contains some original features of the building and the beer brewing that occurred there. Another building is some sort of offices I believe. You can tour the main building, which is where the President of the company had his offices. The tour includes one beer, but you can buy more. Because of this, you're unlikely to get drunk during the tour...unlike some tours in Milwaukee (Cough cough Lakefront Brewery. :-D )
This thread is really making me crave a beer........
Ahh, Sears, the real estate holding company masquerading as a retail store (and not doing a very good job of it). Of course now that retail is in the crapper in many markets, all that real estate isn't looking so hot.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 13, 2014, 12:01:51 AM
Ahh, Sears, the real estate holding company masquerading as a retail store (and not doing a very good job of it). Of course now that retail is in the crapper in many markets, all that real estate isn't looking so hot.
It's a bad sign when the position of President of the company opens up and for over a year NO ONE would touch it. Eddie is a micromanager and wouldn't allow the man to do what he could do anyway, so when he did end up with a President he was another Eddie clone.
O Sears! My Sears!
Quote from: thenetwork on August 06, 2014, 08:51:58 PM
Kmart and Sears will both probably be gone in their current configurations by 2017. In the (still open) Kmarts that I know of, not one of them has been remodeled on the inside or outside and Sears has barely gotten facelifts (due to new logos and cashier relocations).
It used to be that a Sears parking lot on a weekend would be teeming with cars, especially near the entrances closest to the hardware / auto departments. On a recent Saturday morning, I passed by a Sears, and could count the number of cars parked by those entrances on my two hands. My town just added a Sears Outlet store this spring, despite the Sears and Kmarts being ghost towns. I'm still waiting to see which of the two older stores close first.
I always thought Sears Outlet was just a fancy name for Kmart! :)
Last year, we painted our bedroom. It had been a couple of years since the last painting project. We went to Sears, since we'd always had good luck with their paints dating back to the early 1980s. The paint department in our local Sears was a ghost town, with little stock on the shelves and no one to wait on us (we needed a custom color). I walked over to the cash register in the tool department and asked if someone could help us. Went back to wait and noticed that what little paint that was on the shelves had a fine coating of dust on it. I waited about 5 more minutes, no one showed so we took our business elsewhere. Sad.
I have a lot of Craftsman hand tools, because the quality and durability has been excellent, but the upkeep of the tool department is so inconsistent from store to store that it's less of a draw than it was. Too much of a crapshoot. Such a lousy way to run into the ground a line that should be a significant draw into the store.
I keep praying for Best Buy to die...this was a store I used to love going to, anyone remember the "Daddy Store" commercials? That's what Best Buy was to me for a long time...and then they fucked it up. What killed it for me was being badgered at the cash register every single time for credit card/magazine/something or other and I got tired of saying "No. No. NO." Here is money! Do you want it? After al couple of years of this I got to the point where I did not deal with Best Buy unless I had to...until 2002.
December 2002, two weeks before Christmas and I'm looking for a digital camera; I knew the camera I wanted (a Sony Mavica with the 130MB Mini-DVD drive instead of the floppy) and I knew Best Buy had it, so off I go to my nearest BB in Melbourne. Now, it's the holidays and the store was busy, the camera section had several people who were trying to decide what to get and I was patient because there weren't a lot of salespeople to go around, but after 30 minutes I'm saying to myself "I need to wrap this up because I have a 30 minute ride home", so after another five minutes I flag down a salesperson, point to the camera in question and asked if they had one in stock.
"Yes sir, we have it in stock, I'll go get you one." Cool...so I chill for another 15 minutes, and then the same salesperson comes up and says to me "Sir, I'm going to go ahead and get that camera for you, we're trying to locate where they are." That should have been a red flag, but I stayed another 10-15 minutes...no salesperson...no camera...one hour of my time burned...and no sale.
So down the street I go to Circuit City (who I'd been avoiding for ten years because of some smart ass salesperson at one of their stores in PA trying to diss my audio cred while helping my brother find a receiver), not expecting much. Walked into their electronics area, found my camera in stock; after 10 minutes I was able to flag down a salesperson and said "I want THAT camera" (pointing at the cage where the box sat).
"Yes, sir, we'll fix you up..." and five minutes after that I was on my way home with my new toy.
TWO WEEKS later...I'm up in Philly with family and the TV I bought my Mom many years ago finally decided to go TU (the green gun went out), so my younger brother asks if I would ride with him the Wilmington to get her a new TV (since DE has no sales tax), so we jump in my car and off we go. When we get there my brother says 'Let's go to Best Buy and get that TV."
Me (snarling): "Did you not hear about what I went through with these idiots in Melbourne? Dude, Circuit City is down the road."
Him: "Naw, let's go here."
Me: "You'll be sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..." :rolleyes:
So we go in the store and it's a nuthouse; it's after Christmas and the floor is extremely crowded, but my younger brother wants to persevere, so we get to where the TV's are and after about five minutes we decide on the one we want (it was a 27" GE, IIRC), so we look to see if they have any in immediate stock...and they had one. The box looks like someone drove a set of forklift tines through the bottom part of it, so needless to say that's one unit we want no parts of.
Now for the fun part...trying to find a salesperson. So as the minutes begin to stretch on, I'm watching my younger brother start to get agitated, and I'm internally laughing my ass off because I TOLD YOU SO...and about twenty-five minutes into this we manage to find a salesperson, tell him the TV we want and could we get one?
This jackwagon proceeds to point to the box with the holes in it and says "There's one right there." :ded: :crazy: Me and my brother go "Um, no homeboy; that won't work. Can you get us one that doesn't look like it's been handled roughly?"
So off he goes into the crowd. Another 20 minutes pass and now my brother is starting to get really pissed and he wants to leave. Me, the evil one, goes "No, no, it's crowded, give him a chance!" (Besides, it's my car and we'll leave when I damn well please, since you wanted to come here asshole!) :D Finally, my brother says "Oh, there he is!", pointing to the opposite end of the store, where the guy is on a power lift to get the TV.
He gets to the shelf...we hear a thump and half the lights in the store go out. So now they announce on the PA system that everyone has to move to the front of the store...and we proceed to exit the store, a full 45 minutes wasted. I turn to my brother and snarl "NOW can we go to Circuit City like I ASKED YOU?" :poke:
We go down the street to the Circuit City, find the same TV we saw at Best Buy. Ten minutes later a salesman comes up, five minutes after that we've paid for the TV and my car is waiting at the merchandise pick up, they even unboxed the TV and shoehorned it into my backseat (and my brother held that TV up all the way back to my Mom's). A grand total of 25 minutes TOPS.
Neither one of us set foot in Best Buy for YEARS after that.
I've only set foot in one 4 times since then, the last time I was there they'd finally knocked off the whole "credit card/magazine" crap, but their selections of everything just suck badly, especially their software aisles-what the hell? I used to buy all the latest PC games from here, a lot of my desktop software came from here, and now Staples displays have a better selection than BB.
Best Buy and Wal-Mart are in my "When you have no damn choice" list. I miss Circuit City, I miss CompUSA...y'all come back please!
When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.
Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 19, 2014, 09:51:05 PM
When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.
Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.
I miss the CD selection there too...actually I miss record stores in general. Amazon now gets me what I know I want, but record stores - and especially the used section / bargain bins - let me stumble upon good things I wasn't specifically looking for in the first place.
Best Buy seemed to be the antithesis of Circuit City, I guess offering a larger selection over better customer service (temporarily) won out. Then, their prices went up and I suppose customers avoided them for both reasons.
I've been in one only once in the past eight years; they had an iPod (160GB scroll wheel) cheaper in their online store than anywhere else, and they actually managed to price-match it. During the holidays, their lines are absurdly long - twenty minutes for checking out is unacceptable. But I'd saved fifty bucks...something you almost never get with any Apple product.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 19, 2014, 09:51:05 PM
When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.
Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.
But Walmart still only carries the edited version of whatever CD you're looking for, while Best Buy does not. Not that I see too many people buying CD's at either place.
Quote from: DandyDan on August 21, 2014, 03:45:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 19, 2014, 09:51:05 PM
When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.
Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.
But Walmart still only carries the edited version of whatever CD you're looking for, while Best Buy does not. Not that I see too many people buying CD's at either place.
I usually wind up at Disc Replay (regional CD/DVD/game resale store - even sells vinyl) for CDs. Better selection than Walmart, and I might just find it cheaper. I haven't been to the local BB in years. I'd rather go over to HD, Sears, Menards, or HH Gregg for appliances.
Diminished CD selection at both stores has little to do with the state of retail, but rather that most people don't buy physical CDs anymore. Heck, some people don't buy entire albums anymore, just tracks 2, 3, 7, and 11 (or whatever).
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 21, 2014, 11:42:34 PM
Diminished CD selection at both stores has little to do with the state of retail, but rather that most people don't buy physical CDs anymore. Heck, some people don't buy entire albums anymore, just tracks 2, 3, 7, and 11 (or whatever).
The only time in recent music history where buying singles WASN'T popular was in the 1990's. People bought and traded singles all the time on 45 records up until cassette tapes took over in the 1980's. I can't find the exact source at the moment*, but apparently around 1988 or so record companies phased out singles because they knew they could earn more money from getting people to buy the whole album, hence the money making racket of the 1990's. It was almost impossible to find CD singles during that decade, and even those were highway robbery because they'd add a bunch of remixes of the same song onto them and increase the price.
Everyone thinks of Napster ruining the music industry, but Napster was merely the reaction from the elimination of the single format. RIAA dug their own grave by getting rid of singles. The mindset of downloaders: I only want the hit song, and I'm not paying $10-$15 for it, so I'll download it for free. Apple was no dummy, and made a smart decision to get into the business of selling singles, which is what the people wanted all along. I have no problem paying for each song that I want at $1.29 because it's a fair price compared to paying $10 for one song plus nine others that I don't want.
When I can, I still like to buy physical CDs because I can hypothetically import them as many times on as many computers as I want (and it's easier than transferring the music from vinyl to iTunes, which I've also done). Plus, since demand has gone down, I can often get them cheaper than if I were to just buy and download the music from Amazon or iTunes. Even better if I can find them at a yard sale for a buck each :)
*I believe the article I read was from Steve Knopper of Rolling Stone, who eventually incorporated that theory into his book An Appetite for Self Destruction: http://www.amazon.com/Appetite-Self-Destruction-Spectacular-Industry-Digital/dp/1593762690/ref=la_B001JS3L4O_1_1/178-6189919-5334169?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408737048&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Appetite-Self-Destruction-Spectacular-Industry-Digital/dp/1593762690/ref=la_B001JS3L4O_1_1/178-6189919-5334169?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408737048&sr=1-1)
I spotted one more article from the City-Data forums
http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2187117-news-walmart-going-very-dark-place.html
a CNN article titled "Wal-mart: going to a very dark place".
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/30/news/companies/goldman-walmart-downgrade/index.html?hpt=hp_bn6&iid=obnetwork
QuoteWalmart may not go the way of RadioShack (RSH) any time soon. But Goldman Sachs says that customers are abandoning the big-box pioneer in droves.
Quote from: thenetwork on August 06, 2014, 08:51:58 PM
Kmart and Sears will both probably be gone in their current configurations by 2017. In the (still open) Kmarts that I know of, not one of them has been remodeled on the inside or outside and Sears has barely gotten facelifts (due to new logos and cashier relocations).
It used to be that a Sears parking lot on a weekend would be teeming with cars, especially near the entrances closest to the hardware / auto departments. On a recent Saturday morning, I passed by a Sears, and could count the number of cars parked by those entrances on my two hands. My town just added a Sears Outlet store this spring, despite the Sears and Kmarts being ghost towns. I'm still waiting to see which of the two older stores close first.
I always thought Sears Outlet was just a fancy name for Kmart! :)
The last time I saw the inside of a Kmart was one Saturday night a few weeks ago. I was at a classic car show in the parking lot and went inside to use the restroom. The store was grungy and there were very few customers--you could've fired a cannon through the place and not hit anybody.
Quote from: hm insulators on August 26, 2014, 06:57:28 PM
The last time I saw the inside of a Kmart was one Saturday night a few weeks ago. I was at a classic car show in the parking lot and went inside to use the restroom. The store was grungy and there were very few customers--you could've fired a cannon through the place and not hit anybody.
KMart parking lots must be popular places for classic car shows. I went to the KMart in the Millard area of Omaha a few weeks ago, out of morbid curiousity, and they had one going on there. Inside, I think I saw more employees than customers. Then again, it was about 8pm, and I have no idea how busy it gets during the day, but I suspect it's not much busier. The grocery stores on both sides of KMart had many more customers, FWIW.
Quote from: DandyDan on August 27, 2014, 08:10:19 AM
Inside, I think I saw more employees than customers.
Until it was time to check out - then suddenly there is a bunch of customers and only one employee to run the register, as is typical at KMart.
www.npr.org/2014/09/10/347132924/heres-whats-becoming-of-americas-dead-shopping-malls
Another article on the decline of the shopping mall and to a certain extent Big Box Stores.
Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2014, 10:47:02 AM
www.npr.org/2014/09/10/347132924/heres-whats-becoming-of-americas-dead-shopping-malls
Another article on the decline of the shopping mall and to a certain extent Big Box Stores.
Yet, some malls and stores were always hurting. Hell, Montgomery Ward was hurting for decades (even when it was in downtowns). I believe the death of the mall and the big box is overstated and much premature. As for the article's comment about millennials and suburbs versus the city, it's a load of horse manure. But, even then, big boxes and malls can be found there (along with overbuilt and dying stuff).
How big a box does it have to be in order to be a Big Box? I shop in Target every couple of months.
Is Amazon a big box? It certainly has big boxes, even if they're out of sight.
Quote from: kkt on September 10, 2014, 12:21:28 PM
How big a box does it have to be in order to be a Big Box? I shop in Target every couple of months.
Is Amazon a big box? It certainly has big boxes, even if they're out of sight.
Good questions. Even the department stores of old (Field's, Macy's, Hudson's, etc) were big boxes, some of which were stores of 1,000,000+ SF.
I'd say 30,000 SF or so is a good break point for what constitutes a "big box". I'd also say a "big box" store must have a brick-and-mortar retail presence (which Amazon seems to lack at this point). However, the term "big box" is merely, IMHO, meant to be derisive. I'd rather call them what they are, department store (Target), grocer (Jewel-Osco), hypermarket (Meijer), home-improvement store (Menards), etc, etc. Amazon is basically a catalog merchant, some of which last a long time, and some of which don't.
I'd also say that all retailers (including Amazon) have an arc. They grow, increase sales, increase business, and become big. They then have their day in the sun as big, evil to some, corporations (Walmart). Then they lose their focus, lose their customer service and customer base, wither (Sears, K Mart), and maybe die (Montgomery Ward). If they regain their focus, they can continue to ride this roller coaster (JCPenney).
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 10, 2014, 12:21:28 PM
How big a box does it have to be in order to be a Big Box? I shop in Target every couple of months.
Is Amazon a big box? It certainly has big boxes, even if they're out of sight.
Good questions. Even the department stores of old (Field's, Macy's, Hudson's, etc) were big boxes, some of which were stores of 1,000,000+ SF.
I'd say 30,000 SF or so is a good break point for what constitutes a "big box". I'd also say a "big box" store must have a brick-and-mortar retail presence (which Amazon seems to lack at this point). However, the term "big box" is merely, IMHO, meant to be derisive. I'd rather call them what they are, department store (Target), grocer (Jewel-Osco), hypermarket (Meijer), home-improvement store (Menards), etc, etc. Amazon is basically a catalog merchant, some of which last a long time, and some of which don't.
I'd also say that all retailers (including Amazon) have an arc. They grow, increase sales, increase business, and become big. They then have their day in the sun as big, evil to some, corporations (Walmart). Then they lose their focus, lose their customer service and customer base, wither (Sears, K Mart), and maybe die (Montgomery Ward). If they regain their focus, they can continue to ride this roller coaster (JCPenney).
I've always considered big box stores to have only one giant floor. Department stores are usually multiple floors (although occasionally one story if connected to a small mall).
One thing that is affecting retail of many types is lack of stuff to sell. The computer, internet and the smartphone really wiped out people's need for separate devices and objects to handle daily tasks. I saw a picture once that declared "Almost every item on this Radio Shack flyer from 1988 can be replaced by your smartphone" There were 20 items ranging from radios to calculators to organizers to house phones to those little LCD games to clocks. The only thing that hadn't been replaced by the phone was an R/C car.
Quote from: kkt on September 10, 2014, 12:21:28 PM
How big a box does it have to be in order to be a Big Box? I shop in Target every couple of months.
Is Amazon a big box? It certainly has big boxes, even if they're out of sight.
Well Ebay could be in some ways a big box? as far as I know Amazon and Ebay was one of the earliest e-shopping sites for 20 years when the dot-com boom was in its earliest stages.
Quote from: bing101 on September 11, 2014, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: kkt on September 10, 2014, 12:21:28 PM
How big a box does it have to be in order to be a Big Box? I shop in Target every couple of months.
Is Amazon a big box? It certainly has big boxes, even if they're out of sight.
Well Ebay could be in some ways a big box? as far as I know Amazon and Ebay was one of the earliest e-shopping sites for 20 years when the dot-com boom was in its earliest stages.
Ebay doesn't actually sell anything though. It's more like a 24-hour auction hall.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/alibaba-to-close-order-books-early-and-may-lift-price-of-i-p-o/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Alibaba is being talked about as the next Big Box, Amazon or Ebay take your pick on this.
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
I'd say 30,000 SF or so is a good break point for what constitutes a "big box". I'd also say a "big box" store must have a brick-and-mortar retail presence (which Amazon seems to lack at this point). However, the term "big box" is merely, IMHO, meant to be derisive. I'd rather call them what they are, department store (Target), grocer (Jewel-Osco), hypermarket (Meijer), home-improvement store (Menards), etc, etc. Amazon is basically a catalog merchant, some of which last a long time, and some of which don't.
When I think of the term 'hypermarket' I think of the chain "Carrefour" that we had briefly in the Philadelphia area maybe 20+ years ago. At the time, the biggest box stores around were stuff like KMart and there were no food/department store combinations. I went in once or twice and couldn't believe how big it was. I think they used 'hypermarket' in their marketing. They didn't last long however, and a quick check of Wikipedia tells me they're all over the world, but gone from the US.
In NJ at least, Walmart Supercenters that have food are just entering the market. Not long ago, there was only one that I knew of, and they're now ramping up with a new one near me and some other standard Walmarts being renovated to add the grocery section.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on September 12, 2014, 11:58:04 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
I'd say 30,000 SF or so is a good break point for what constitutes a "big box". I'd also say a "big box" store must have a brick-and-mortar retail presence (which Amazon seems to lack at this point). However, the term "big box" is merely, IMHO, meant to be derisive. I'd rather call them what they are, department store (Target), grocer (Jewel-Osco), hypermarket (Meijer), home-improvement store (Menards), etc, etc. Amazon is basically a catalog merchant, some of which last a long time, and some of which don't.
When I think of the term 'hypermarket' I think of the chain "Carrefour" that we had briefly in the Philadelphia area maybe 20+ years ago. At the time, the biggest box stores around were stuff like KMart and there were no food/department store combinations. I went in once or twice and couldn't believe how big it was. I think they used 'hypermarket' in their marketing. They didn't last long however, and a quick check of Wikipedia tells me they're all over the world, but gone from the US.
In NJ at least, Walmart Supercenters that have food are just entering the market. Not long ago, there was only one that I knew of, and they're now ramping up with a new one near me and some other standard Walmarts being renovated to add the grocery section.
By comparison, Michigan has had Meijer as a hypermarket chain since 1962. They started as a grocer (in 1934) and added a huge general merchandise section. Carrefour did not start building hypermarkets until 1963.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/temples-american-commerce-indoor-malls-lose-shoppers-e-stores/
PBS Newshour does a story about malls in some cities that are abandoned.