The norm seems to be to sign numbered streets with the ordinal indicators (e.g., "6th St."). New York City usually omits them (e.g., "W 47 St"). DC uses them on freeway signage (e.g., "6th St S.E."); on street blades, they have traditionally been omitted, but new street blades that are being phased in at a glacial pace have them.
How is it done where you live? If ordinal indicators are used, are they superscripted, inline, or shown some other way? Any other thoughts?
The fun ones are the mismatched ones, i.e. "21th St."
The Chicago area uses them, and usually they are not superscripted on freeway/tollway signage.
Some examples:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_2002.jpg&hash=8c01e341395ecbbfdf4715c5471b576a519de44a) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_2002.jpg.html)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_2140.jpg&hash=8ca147cc54fb751e0be3fd02a828674c9e67bec1) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_2140.jpg.html)
On street blades, they most likely are superscripted.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_4169_zps054575be.jpg&hash=d0dac29c02175511ef777648b8c76290d2e07316) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_4169_zps054575be.jpg.html)
On older rural, or formerly rural street blades, they're like this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_2585.jpg&hash=c024c51870aae345bf0720386280166a6a09db4c) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_2585.jpg.html)
Found these in Saint Louis:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_3318_zps315e08ca.jpg&hash=8c89fea2b78f5d33451c7500b12a46789148a5af) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_3318_zps315e08ca.jpg.html)
Here's what some of Manville's look like (closest place I can think of with numbered streets...):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNL7OKIx.png&hash=a0975d06b608a6b63cb9d1f00567d29ff0fe809e)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FelVfxk3.png&hash=49f274e63395a2af00e8f2ad9f05e48d83186652)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbUWurGk.png&hash=b362d48b9517f873e3a7afd969f2a43523c64f6b)
The images are from GMSV.
As you can see, inconsistency happens, but apparently in the switch to Clearview(?) from the FHWA fonts (which, by the way, SUCKS, because at night you can barely read those signs with the negative contrast use...) they superscripted the ordinal while converting it to proper case.
I always liked Cleveland's old ones. Very simple and to the point.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F08%2F11%2F6ajerany.jpg&hash=a603ddf6c9426e726cefb2ca8d9ea0823e4de1f0)
Their new ones are more New York style.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F08%2F11%2F5ubygure.jpg&hash=3eb67349b083777e0f03002017382a114dddf6cd)
Columbus' old ones...I didn't like so much. It's almost like they didn't know how to handle such a thing.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F08%2F11%2Fydu7are3.jpg&hash=9b9145242467073b8f44b8c638ca18f003469940)
But the new ones aren't much better. The superscript almost gets lost.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F08%2F11%2Fu3ydy2ym.jpg&hash=30b081942d736f50478b0156cf2aa1d88c0ad098)
I've always been in favor of the New York / Cleveland style, personally.
Here's how Huntsville does it:
http://goo.gl/maps/SCkYO
http://goo.gl/maps/WT9yw
http://goo.gl/maps/H53Py
I've never understood why an ordinal indicator is needed because it seems like it'd be presumed regardless of its inclusion–just like if you write the date as, for example, "August 10, 2014," most readers will read the "10" as an ordinal.
Missoula's street grid, the way I see it, does have ordinals of which are subscripted starting from 14th Street down to 57th Street going into the South Hills area.
I think the avenues lining 39th Street are like that, too. 23rd Avenue is a good example of that.
My hometown of Arnprior, Ontario has only a very small section, and they use ordinals, but they are spelled out.
From FIRST AVE:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.434742,-76.345661,3a,37.5y,46.72h,83.66t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEk_m8FHWZqyNu2yIAjcpIQ!2e0
to SEVENTH AVE:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.437376,-76.337848,3a,37.2y,138.76h,90.63t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sn6g36fOHoYoUiINKt8vEFQ!2e0
(though there is no SIXTH AVE there). Yes, these are two different "eras" of street blades.
In the KC area (both Missouri and Kansas), the ordinals are used both on street-level and freeway signage.
One near Tacoma where the "st" is superscript:
(ignore the sign errors please)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fa24Yzm9.png&hash=5c750955592183904b52878cca9133dce833adac)
In California, some older guide signs will superscript the ordinal...
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images880/i-880_nb_exit_039a_02.jpg)
...while almost all new guide signs will not.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images880/i-880_nb_exit_037_01.jpg)
both photos courtesy of the AARoads
Quote from: maplestar on August 10, 2014, 03:56:57 PM
My hometown of Arnprior, Ontario has only a very small section, and they use ordinals, but they are spelled out.
From FIRST AVE:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.434742,-76.345661,3a,37.5y,46.72h,83.66t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sEk_m8FHWZqyNu2yIAjcpIQ!2e0
to SEVENTH AVE:
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.437376,-76.337848,3a,37.2y,138.76h,90.63t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sn6g36fOHoYoUiINKt8vEFQ!2e0
(though there is no SIXTH AVE there). Yes, these are two different "eras" of street blades.
Reno, NV spells out the numbered streets also. Las Vegas uses the ordinal indicator.
Methods vary all over the US. And even in the same town.
My own preference: if a city's sign shop or state DOT insists on using ordinals it's better if they just write out items like "6th Street" plain with no special treatment given to the "th" letters. It's either that or just leave off the "th" and write out "6 Street" instead.
The font files for FHWA Series Gothic and Clearview Highway are both very primitive in terms of typographic features. They have no real OpenType functionality to them, such as having specially designed and positioned ordinal characters that don't look like faked crap when activated.
Not many OpenType fonts have ordinal character features. Fewer have true ordinals where the smaller, super scripted characters have weights that look similar to the full height characters. There's not a whole lot of demand for that typographical feature. IMHO, a native small capitals character set with two positions (baseline and M height aligned) would work a lot better for any ordinals purposes rather than an attempt to shrink the size of lowercase characters into a super scripted ordinals arrangement.
Norman always includes the ordinals. Oklahoma City usually does, but omits them on a few signs.
Back in the button copy era, ODOT practice was to capitalize, subscript, and underline ordinals:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPVJbbjF.jpg&hash=65ff5b3c514fc4a0426d55e0dab3150536840632)
Since then, it's gotten a lot more inconsistent with ODOT–is anyone surprised, though?–with the most common treatments being caps-and-superscript with no underline, or just plain lowercase letters.
I apologize for reviving such an old topic, but I just noticed something over the weekend while I was in Vancouver, and I don't feel it necessary to start a new thread.
Not only do the street blades for the Greater Vancouver area exclude the ordinal indicator, but residents do not use the ordinal indicator in speech, nor does Google Maps use the indicator for the street numbers. Basically, the ordinal indicator does not exist in any capacity whatsoever. The MOT does not use the ordinal indicator on freeway signs in the Greater Vancouver area either.
From my experience in the Seattle area, while most signage excludes the ordinal indicator (WSDOT is inconsistent), residents use the ordinal indicator in speech, like the rest of the US. ("Take Cherry to fourth avenue, and turn left").
This is not true for the city of Vancouver, which employs ordinal indicators both in speech, and on street blades. The MOT also posts ordinal indicators on freeway signage within Vancouver city limits, unlike the rest of the Greater Vancouver area.
Gainesville and Alachua County FL do not have ordinals on street blades.. I did not get pics. Next time im there i will
LGMS428
I'll add to Brandon's post that I have never seen any town in the state of Illinois omit the "th," "nd," "st," or "rd" after the numbers.
Street blades in town use the ordinals, but blades out in the countryside often omit them.
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 11, 2014, 04:44:12 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images880/i-880_nb_exit_037_01.jpg)
both photos courtesy of the AARoads
Throwback to the Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum being called "Network Associates Coliseum". Brings back MVP Baseball/Madden 2005 memories. I assume this sign is patched or replaced by a new sign with an exit box.
Philadelphia superscripts them on their regular street blades. On overpasses over freeways, they are signed in upper case with a space (8 TH ST), whereas on overhead signs they vary, sometimes lowercase with "Street" spelled out (8th Street), sometimes uppercase with no space (8TH ST), and sometimes with the number spelled out (Seventh St)
In Des Moines, all numbered streets use the ordinal suffix (although surrounding Polk County doesn't, with a few exceptions!), but the implementation of that varies.
Older 6" legend signs use full size, lowercase ordinal suffixes, as seen here (https://i.imgur.com/nSmBw9g.jpg) or here (https://i.imgur.com/VGOV1rc.jpg).
Newer 6" legend signs use superscript, lowercase, as seen here (https://i.imgur.com/FZJrRlo.jpg) or here (https://i.imgur.com/5NfJWCl.jpg).
Older 4" legend signs are almost all universally superscript, uppercase, as seen here (https://i.imgur.com/omei8oK.jpg).
Newer 4" legend signs use a bigger sign and use superscript, lowercase, as seen here (https://i.imgur.com/4MNG8tH.jpg).
There are a few oddball ones, like this older 4" legend one (https://i.imgur.com/KwrrTer.jpg) that is lowercase, full size.
El Paso's numbered streets start about eleven blocks north of the U.S.-Mexico Border and ascend as they go south, so the numbers never went very high and a handful have been replaced with other names. In any case, all numeric street names are spelled out on blades, e.g., "First Ave.," "Third Ave.," "Ninth Ave.," etc.
Duluth's can be fun, because sometimes you get two ordinals on one blade like N 13th Ave E. I've always seen them inline and never superscripted on modern blades. There are a few ancient street blades still hanging around in hard to reach places in Duluth, which had ordinals superscripted and underlined. Strangely, numerical names are spelled out as you cross E-W streets at signals, but not N-S ones, for example "First Street", "Second Street," etc. are spelled out on stoplight blades but "1st Ave", "2nd Ave", etc. are not.
Regarding BGSs in Minnesota ordinal inclusion is hit or miss. They're consistently signed in Duluth but very erratically in the Twin Cities.
To add to the insanity, whether or NYSDOT does it depends on the region. R11 doesn't include them, the rest do.
I remember in Atlanta the BGS had the words spelled out "Tenth St" "Fourteenth St" imagine a really high number like "One Hundred Sixty Seventh Street" (Yes i know there is not a street that hight in Atlanta)
LGMS428
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2016, 05:47:47 PMStreet blades in town use the ordinals, but blades out in the countryside often omit them.
Do you have an example? The default (at least in rural Sedgwick County) appears to be to render them as very small superscripts (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Colwich,+KS+67030/@37.7216451,-97.5353659,3a,20y,203.62h,85.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sljZxX2HAtAznIkMYQogf9Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DljZxX2HAtAznIkMYQogf9Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D84.76892%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87bb26d8d17a8bd9:0x8b7450876897966c!8m2!3d37.7791785!4d-97.5364351).
I live in NYC. Here, the street numbers are written as cardinal numbers but pronounced as ordinal numbers. There's one exception I'm aware of, Third Avenue in the Bronx, which is presumably written that way because the Bronx otherwise doesn't have numbered avenues. Out in the suburbs, everything is written as ordinal numbers as far as I know.
Quote from: jwolfer on December 18, 2016, 12:47:44 PM
I remember in Atlanta the BGS had the words spelled out "Tenth St" "Fourteenth St" imagine a really high number like "One Hundred Sixty Seventh Street" (Yes i know there is not a street that hight in Atlanta)
Newer signs have reversed course and simply use ordinals for 10th/14th/16th/17th, which mirrors usage on the City of Atlanta's signs.
There's also a small series of numbered avenues on the east side of the city, signed as 1st through 5th, that cross the border into Decatur, where they're signed as First through Fifth.
Quote from: dgolub on December 18, 2016, 09:16:37 PM
I live in NYC. Here, the street numbers are written as cardinal numbers but pronounced as ordinal numbers. There's one exception I'm aware of, Third Avenue in the Bronx, which is presumably written that way because the Bronx otherwise doesn't have numbered avenues.
This at least is the standard convention for NYCDOT. "E 34 St", "5 Av", etc. Note that many signs on expressways and parkways are NYCDOT installs as well. NYSDOT R11 follows the same convention in order to conform to what NYCDOT does.
But, there are a bunch of street signs in Midtown where are installed by the various BIDs in the area rather than by the city DOT, and they write out the names of avenues ("Fifth Ave") while showing a raised ordinal and writing out the direction for streets ("East 34
th St").
Very often businesses like to write things out as well. "5 Av" is kind of informal so people will put "Fifth Avenue" on business cards and such because it looks more professional.
Quote from: dgolub on December 18, 2016, 09:16:37 PMOut in the suburbs, everything is written as ordinal numbers as far as I know.
Stamford, CT writes out their numbered streets in text: "First", "Second", etc. So do Mt Vernon, NY and Pelham, NY. The main grid in Hudson County, NJ as well as the grid in Bayonne, NJ used the number/raised ordinal combo ("1
st", "2
nd", etc.)
Watervliet, NY writes some of their ordinal numbered streets out:
https://goo.gl/maps/2VxN49fJfEL2
...while using numbers in other cases:
https://goo.gl/maps/BjGBayJrfb32
13th St is "THIRTEENTH ST" just a block or two north of there.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 18, 2016, 08:18:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2016, 05:47:47 PMStreet blades in town use the ordinals, but blades out in the countryside often omit them.
Do you have an example? The default (at least in rural Sedgwick County) appears to be to render them as very small superscripts (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Colwich,+KS+67030/@37.7216451,-97.5353659,3a,20y,203.62h,85.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sljZxX2HAtAznIkMYQogf9Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DljZxX2HAtAznIkMYQogf9Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D84.76892%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87bb26d8d17a8bd9:0x8b7450876897966c!8m2!3d37.7791785!4d-97.5364351).
You're right. I was getting two pairs of things mixed up in my head:
(1) I was remembering they left out the "Street" part but thought it was the ordinal indicator they left out instead.
(2) I was confusing current practice with what they used to do: white paint on an old black tire on a fence post. The latter sometimes had nothing more than a number, sometimes included the directional, but pretty much never had an ordinal indicator. It's hard to find any of those tires still around, and a lot of the ones that remain are illegible by now, but
here's an example at "69 N" and Rock from old GSV (https://goo.gl/maps/TLLD3pyVavm). And here's another one on "69" that I photographed a few years ago (still clearly legible on 2012 GSV, although I don't recall if it's actually still there since they erected green street blades in the area recently):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2F69thST.png&hash=051a9cf79804ae2d45f5a44a02c5fcaa4c3f572a)
Quote from: kphoger on December 19, 2016, 03:49:00 PMI was confusing current practice with what they used to do: white paint on an old black tire on a fence post. The latter sometimes had nothing more than a number, sometimes included the directional, but pretty much never had an ordinal indicator.
Thanks for this explanation--I actually never knew about the tire-on-fence convention, being a city slicker through and through.
I just found this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2367141,-117.9550673,493m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1
Do these 1 hundredth St and Ninety 5th St actually exist? Are they signed as such?
Phone books around here wrote ordinal numbers as cardinal.
In downtown Toledo, they used to have only the number (https://maps.app.goo.gl/9j9ZKyL4wCtgxqXA8). A suffix was added to all the later images.
Quote from: kphoger on December 19, 2016, 03:49:00 PM(2) I was confusing current practice with what they used to do: white paint on an old black tire on a fence post.
I can't decide whether that's marvelously efficient or horrendously cheap. Either way, not MUTCD compliant...
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 02, 2025, 04:02:16 PMQuote from: kphoger on December 19, 2016, 03:49:00 PM(2) I was confusing current practice with what they used to do: white paint on an old black tire on a fence post.
I can't decide whether that's marvelously efficient or horrendously cheap. Either way, not MUTCD compliant...
It could be money efficient enough to replace the many stolen blades on that 69th Street...