Florida has more toll roads than any state. My question is why? Why are there toll roads everywhere? Are they rip offs? Is Florida a bad state?
Only one on an interstate which curves to Miami for some reason. The Florida Turnpike once it gets to I-95 you might as well get off and get on to 95. Will they extend it to Tallahassee?
High population growth since the Interstate system was planned. Arizona built free roads (presumably by raising taxes) but Florida went with toll roads.
(Florida's Turnpike and Alligator Alley are different, since they predate the Interstates. The former is a typical pre-Interstate toll road like in the Northeast and Midwest, while the latter was an expensive road across the middle of nowhere.)
And yes, Florida is a bad state, but not because of toll roads.
Folks don't want their taxes raised to get the roads built, so this is the way they go. In truth, there aren't many more toll roads being built here (the Wekiva Parkway add-on to make SR 417 a full beltway around Orlando along with SR 429, the Poinciana Parkway and a couple of others that escape me right now), what you're seeing now is the introduction of HOT lanes more than anything (I-95 in Miami, the reversible lanes on the Lee Roy Selmon and eventually I-4 in Orlando).
There are plans to expand existing toll roads (both the SunCoast and the Holland East-West have plans in place for expansion), but I don't see any wholesale building of more toll roads anytime soon. Of course, this is Florida-"the rules are different here"...
I'm sure NE2 knows a damn sight more about it off the top of his head than I do, so I'll defer to him.
There's far too many in the Orlando area. As someone who lived in other areas of the state, you're seemingly given no choices but I-4 for toll-free commuting upon great distances within that region. Unless you're using them for three-mile stints, they're not too expensive, end-to-end, if taking them infrequently.
Turnpike is sort of an exception, but it could stand to be widened to six lanes in many areas that have grown terrifically in the past sixty years. There's a few miles of the Homestead Extension which is a three-mile-long parking lot every night. Tolls remained constant for many years, but they've crept up gradually in the past five years. Electronic tolling customers kept somewhat lower prices than cash-paying users. I guess it's about $20 for 312 miles, from start to finish, and saves time. There's areas one could shunpike, some to save time, or others for a more scenic trip.
Road surfaces and safety is pretty much interstate-standard throughout (a few legacy sections here and there). Unless there's a boom in the Big Bend/northern Nature Coast area, I don't see the Turnpike getting an northern extension to US 19, let alone I-10. It's a rather empty region of the state (north of Spring Hill, west of Gainesville, south of Tallahassee).
Here's the toll mileage by state as of 2013 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/tollpage/):
Florida 719.46
Oklahoma 604.9
Pennsylvania 596.7
New York 567.6
Texas 502.18
Illinois 374.53
New Jersey 359.85
Ohio 241.2
Kansas 236
Puerto Rico 213.63
Indiana 157
Massachusetts 138.2
California 134.8
Maine 108.18
New Hampshire 99.4
West Virginia 86.8
Colorado 84
Utah 62.9
Virginia 58.57
Delaware 56.72
Maryland 27.63
Minnesota 27
South Carolina 23.5
Washington 14.48
North Carolina 12.6
Vermont 11.9
Alabama 8.53
Nevada 6.37
Georgia 6.2
Louisiana 1.5
Miles per million people:
Oklahoma 161.2
Kansas 82.7
Maine 81.4
New Hampshire 75.1
Delaware 63.2
Puerto Rico 57.3
Pennsylvania 47.0
West Virginia 46.8
New Jersey 40.9
Florida 38.3
New York 29.3
Illinois 29.2
Indiana 24.2
Utah 22.8
Massachusetts 21.1
Ohio 20.9
Texas 20.0
Vermont 19.0
Colorado 16.7
Virginia 7.3
Minnesota 5.1
South Carolina 5.1
Maryland 4.8
California 3.6
Nevada 2.4
Washington 2.2
Alabama 1.8
North Carolina 1.3
Georgia 0.6
Louisiana 0.3
Miles per 10,000 mi^2 of land area:
Puerto Rico 624.0
New Jersey 489.3
Delaware 291.1
Massachusetts 177.2
Florida 134.2
Pennsylvania 133.4
New York 120.4
New Hampshire 111.0
Oklahoma 88.2
Illinois 67.5
Ohio 59.0
Indiana 43.8
West Virginia 36.1
Maine 35.1
Kansas 28.9
Maryland 28.5
Texas 19.2
Virginia 14.8
Vermont 12.9
California 8.7
Colorado 8.1
South Carolina 7.8
Utah 7.7
Minnesota 3.4
North Carolina 2.6
Washington 2.2
Alabama 1.7
Georgia 1.1
Nevada 0.6
Louisiana 0.3
Miles per sqrt(10,000*land area in mi^2) - this is probably more meaningful than the previous one:
New Jersey 419.6
Puerto Rico 365.1
Florida 310.7
Pennsylvania 282.1
New York 261.5
Oklahoma 231.0
Illinois 159.0
Massachusetts 156.5
Delaware 128.5
Ohio 119.3
New Hampshire 105.1
Texas 98.3
Indiana 82.9
Kansas 82.5
Maine 61.6
West Virginia 56.0
California 34.2
Virginia 29.5
Maryland 28.0
Colorado 26.1
Utah 21.9
South Carolina 13.6
Vermont 12.4
Minnesota 9.6
North Carolina 5.7
Washington 5.6
Alabama 3.8
Georgia 2.6
Nevada 1.9
Louisiana 0.7
Miles per 10,000 miles of public road (as of 2012 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2012/)):
Puerto Rico 128.0
New Jersey 91.6
Delaware 88.9
New Hampshire 61.7
Florida 59.1
Oklahoma 53.6
Pennsylvania 49.8
New York 49.5
Maine 47.3
Massachusetts 38.0
Illinois 25.9
West Virginia 22.4
Ohio 19.6
Kansas 16.8
Indiana 16.1
Texas 16.0
Utah 13.7
Colorado 9.5
Maryland 8.5
Vermont 8.3
Virginia 7.9
California 7.7
South Carolina 3.5
Minnesota 1.9
Washington 1.7
Nevada 1.7
North Carolina 1.2
Alabama 0.8
Georgia 0.5
Louisiana 0.2
So no matter what you divide by, New Jersey and Puerto Rico beat Florida.
I see Texas but Oklahoma. umm Badly maintained roads even the toll roads are badly maintain and don't look interstate standards. But that's a topic for another time.
So people who don't want taxes raised set themselves up for toll roads. There are so many. How many are there?
I personally really don't know why Florida has so many toll roads. An opinion from my parents is because it gets so many visitors/tourists, from the beaches to all the parks in Orlando to a huge retirement hub (that is included in the sense that people would be visiting their parents or grandparents or whoever). I've also heard so many tolls were built in Orlando to stop suburban sprawl, but it's pretty darn clear that didn't work :-D :pan:
Quote from: formulanone on November 16, 2014, 09:36:17 PM
Unless there's a boom in the Big Bend/northern Nature Coast area, I don't see the Turnpike getting an northern extension to US 19, let alone I-10. It's a rather empty region of the state (north of Spring Hill, west of Gainesville, south of Tallahassee).
I agree. I think it'd be cool for the FL Turnpike to be extended to Tallahassee, and I've even made my own route proposals for the possible extension. But in reality, there's no need at all, unless, like you said, that region suddenly starts quickly growing. Right now taking I-75 to I-10 is perfectly fine, as far as Im concerned.
Also, NE2, thank you for posting those statistics. Those are quite interesting.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on November 16, 2014, 10:55:45 PM
I've also heard so many tolls were built in Orlando to stop suburban sprawl, but it's pretty darn clear that didn't work :-D :pan:
Bahaha. The toll roads help sprawl (with the possible exception of the Wekiva Parkway).
The main reason what would be Interstate spurs in many states are toll roads is population patterns: Florida simply wasn't as populated in the 1950s.
Quote from: NE2 on November 16, 2014, 10:35:57 PM
Here's the toll mileage by state as of 2013 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/tollpage/):
Maryland 27.63
I don't think that is correct.
I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway and spurs) - 17 miles
I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel and approaches) - 10 miles
I-695 (F. S. Key Bridge and approaches) - 10 miles
U.S. 301 (Harry Nice Memorial Bridge) - 2 miles
U.S. 40 (Hatem Bridge) - between 1 and 2 miles
U.S. 50/U.S. 301 (William Preson Lane, Jr. Memorial Bridge and approaches) - about 5 or 6 miles
I-95 (JFK Highway) - about 48 miles
Md. 200 (ICC) - about 18 miles
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 17, 2014, 12:10:56 AM
Quote from: NE2 on November 16, 2014, 10:35:57 PM
Here's the toll mileage by state as of 2013 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/tollpage/):
Maryland 27.63
I don't think that is correct.
I-895 (Baltimore Harbor Tunnel Thruway and spurs) - 17 miles
I-95 (Fort McHenry Tunnel and approaches) - 10 miles
I-695 (F. S. Key Bridge and approaches) - 10 miles
U.S. 301 (Harry Nice Memorial Bridge) - 2 miles
U.S. 40 (Hatem Bridge) - between 1 and 2 miles
U.S. 50/U.S. 301 (William Preson Lane, Jr. Memorial Bridge and approaches) - about 5 or 6 miles
I-95 (JFK Highway) - about 48 miles
Md. 200 (ICC) - about 18 miles
I didn't count bridges and tunnels, as classified by the FHWA. That includes the JFK (the only toll portion is the Susquehanna bridge) and the Harbor Tunnel Thruway. But they do include the I-95 express lanes, which aren't open yet? You can calculate it differently if you wish.
I feel like 895 south of Lombard St would count considering you can't leave the roadway until you pass the toll booth. But I don't know.
Quote from: kj3400 on November 17, 2014, 03:08:47 AM
I feel like 895 south of Lombard St would count considering you can't leave the roadway until you pass the toll booth. But I don't know.
If it shows in the State Highway Administration's Highway Location Reference as
TOLL MAINTENANCE, then it is maintained by MdTA, even if they do not get to charge a toll of drivers.
New Hampshire has 151.3 miles?
Here's what I find:
I-95 from exits 1 to 3 (12 miles)
NH 16 from exits 6 to 7 (4 miles)
NH 16 from exits 9 to 12 (6 miles)
I-93 from exit 10 to I-89 (9 miles)
Everett Turnpike from exits 8 to 12 (10 miles)
Mount Washington Auto Rd, on a technicality (7 miles)
Total: 48 miles, not 151.3 miles. It decreases to 41 miles if not counting Mount Washington Auto Rd.
Quote from: 1 on November 17, 2014, 05:30:17 PM
New Hampshire has 151.3 miles?
I included a link to the source. Which apparently double-counts the Spaulding Turnpike and the Interstate portion of the Everett Turnpike, and includes all toll-maintained mileage whether or not you have to pay. Fixed the former issue; the latter is not something I'm dealing with.
People, before complaining about my figures, check the source.
Quote from: formulanone on November 16, 2014, 09:36:17 PM
There's far too many in the Orlando area. As someone who lived in other areas of the state, you're seemingly given no choices but I-4 for toll-free commuting upon great distances within that region. Unless you're using them for three-mile stints, they're not too expensive, end-to-end, if taking them infrequently.
Turnpike is sort of an exception, but it could stand to be widened to six lanes in many areas that have grown terrifically in the past sixty years. There's a few miles of the Homestead Extension which is a three-mile-long parking lot every night. Tolls remained constant for many years, but they've crept up gradually in the past five years. Electronic tolling customers kept somewhat lower prices than cash-paying users. I guess it's about $20 for 312 miles, from start to finish, and saves time. There's areas one could shunpike, some to save time, or others for a more scenic trip.
Road surfaces and safety is pretty much interstate-standard throughout (a few legacy sections here and there). Unless there's a boom in the Big Bend/northern Nature Coast area, I don't see the Turnpike getting an northern extension to US 19, let alone I-10. It's a rather empty region of the state (north of Spring Hill, west of Gainesville, south of Tallahassee).
No duh; the Beachline is killing me. If I were to get hired back on the Space Coast it's an 85 cent/hour pay raise for me ($7 daily with rebates). I'd take the 408 but SR 50 is a madhouse with the widening construction.
I don't see any new toll road construction on the horizon (outside of the Poinciana Parkway-and WHY?), not after they whacked the First Coast Outer Beltway plan in Jacksonville. However, this is Florida...
Remember the one toll plaza there is just doing the opposite of what was done when the eliminated the SR 520 mainline plaza. The Dallas Boulevard mainline now functions as what the SR 520 plaza did, basically when you look at it. As NE 2 scolded at me years ago when I made a thread about the OOCEA, there really was not an increase in tolls, but just a simple redistribution for when (or if) Eastern Orange County gets urbanized the tolls will more fair to those using it.
A spur of the Florida Turnpike should be built from Ocala to Jacksonville. Are there any plans being developed?
Quote from: roadman65 on November 17, 2014, 07:02:40 PM
Remember the one toll plaza there is just doing the opposite of what was done when the eliminated the SR 520 mainline plaza. The Dallas Boulevard mainline now functions as what the SR 520 plaza did, basically when you look at it. As NE 2 scolded at me years ago when I made a thread about the OOCEA, there really was not an increase in tolls, but just a simple redistribution for when (or if) Eastern Orange County gets urbanized the tolls will more fair to those using it.
The whole point of the Dallas Boulevard toll booth is to get folks in Avalon Park to use the Beachline; since they've split the booths I've noticed an increase of the number of cars that use the International Corporate Park exit. Now, when they finally convert the Dallas Blvd exit to a full diamond like they promised, I'll be surprised. As it is, if you live in Wedgefield and you want to get to Brevard County your only option is SR 50.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 17, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
A spur of the Florida Turnpike should be built from Ocala to Jacksonville. Are there any plans being developed?
Though this isn't desperately needed, I just came up with a solution to both this and also the possibility of FL 91 (the Turnpike) being extended to Tallahassee.
I have come up with two route proposals for extensions to both FL 91
and FL 589 (btw I don't think this is going too off-topic since the title of the thread
is "Florida Toll Roads," heh): http://prntscr.com/57i08m
Basically, extend FL 91 to Tallahassee, and extend FL 589 to Jacksonville. If there is a desired limited-access connection from Ocala to Jacksonville, then one can take I-75 Northbound to the extended FL 589 in Gainesville. That way, both Ocala and Gainesville could have an efficient limited-access connection to Jacksonville. I think these proposals create a solution here.
"Everything in Florida is tolled" is a perception that I think is created by the fact that the vast majority of freeways in Orlando and Miami are tolled. New Jersey may beat Florida in terms of toll mileage compared to what have you in an overall sense, but if you drill down further Florida disproportionately concentrates its toll roads in its most urban and most touristy areas. Imagine for a second that NJ3, NJ4, NJ17, NJ19, NJ21, NJ24, NJ208, NJ440, the Palisades, the Skyway, I-280, and I-78 east of I-287 were all tolled but the Turnpike was free south of exit 6, the Parkway was free south of exit 117, and the Expressway was completely free. Then New Jersey would look more like Florida in terms of tolls.
New Jersey proper isn't so bad - it's those darn bridges that lead to New York City which cost a King's ransom and take up a Congress' wait.
Quote from: Guysdrive780 on November 16, 2014, 06:39:00 PM
Florida has more toll roads than any state. My question is why? Why are there toll roads everywhere? Are they rip offs? Is Florida a bad state?
Only one on an interstate which curves to Miami for some reason. The Florida Turnpike once it gets to I-95 you might as well get off and get on to 95. Will they extend it to Tallahassee?
I don't see why one wouldn't take 95 where it parallels the turnpike. The turnpike however does bypass Miami in a way, whereas 95 just ends in downtown.
As for driving from Naples to Miami, I being cheap, would probably take US 41.
In Florida's defense though, I think all the interstates in the country should be toll roads, as long as there is a close free alternative to the interstate. Like SR 66 in Oklahoma is a free alternative to I-44.
If the interstate is an improvement of an existing highway (like SR 37 and I-69 in Indiana) I think it should be free, since the existing road was free.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 17, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
A spur of the Florida Turnpike should be built from Ocala to Jacksonville. Are there any plans being developed?
Well, it'd be cheaper than getting caught doing 36 in a 35 in Lawtey or Waldo, I guess (though for when I go through there, if they're pulling me over, it isn't going to be for speeding)
Quote from: DeaconG on November 17, 2014, 08:44:38 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 17, 2014, 07:02:40 PM
Remember the one toll plaza there is just doing the opposite of what was done when the eliminated the SR 520 mainline plaza. The Dallas Boulevard mainline now functions as what the SR 520 plaza did, basically when you look at it. As NE 2 scolded at me years ago when I made a thread about the OOCEA, there really was not an increase in tolls, but just a simple redistribution for when (or if) Eastern Orange County gets urbanized the tolls will more fair to those using it.
The whole point of the Dallas Boulevard toll booth is to get folks in Avalon Park to use the Beachline; since they've split the booths I've noticed an increase of the number of cars that use the International Corporate Park exit. Now, when they finally convert the Dallas Blvd exit to a full diamond like they promised, I'll be surprised. As it is, if you live in Wedgefield and you want to get to Brevard County your only option is SR 50.
That should be easy, as all they need to do is a plain ramp as there is no ramp toll there.
Right now the CFX is concentrating on tolling the McCoy/ Boggy Creek and Tradeport/ Conway ramps to remove the Airport mainline, so upgrading that Dallas Boulevard interchange is probably furthest from their minds right now anyway.
Quote from: exit322 on November 17, 2014, 09:28:51 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 17, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
A spur of the Florida Turnpike should be built from Ocala to Jacksonville. Are there any plans being developed?
Well, it'd be cheaper than getting caught doing 36 in a 35 in Lawtey or Waldo, I guess (though for when I go through there, if they're pulling me over, it isn't going to be for speeding)
Waldo police force has been disbanded. I was surprised to read the police chief had qoutas for tickets( sarcasm)
"Basically, extend FL 91 to Tallahassee, and extend FL 589 to Jacksonville. If there is a desired limited-access connection from Ocala to Jacksonville, then one can take I-75 Northbound to the extended FL 589 in Gainesville. That way, both Ocala and Gainesville could have an efficient limited-access connection to Jacksonville. I think these proposals create a solution here."
Adventurernumber1, that's a good solution.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on November 17, 2014, 08:45:47 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on November 17, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
A spur of the Florida Turnpike should be built from Ocala to Jacksonville. Are there any plans being developed?
Though this isn't desperately needed, I just came up with a solution to both this and also the possibility of FL 91 (the Turnpike) being extended to Tallahassee.
I have come up with two route proposals for extensions to both FL 91 and FL 589 (btw I don't think this is going too off-topic since the title of the thread is "Florida Toll Roads," heh): http://prntscr.com/57i08m
Basically, extend FL 91 to Tallahassee, and extend FL 589 to Jacksonville. If there is a desired limited-access connection from Ocala to Jacksonville, then one can take I-75 Northbound to the extended FL 589 in Gainesville. That way, both Ocala and Gainesville could have an efficient limited-access connection to Jacksonville. I think these proposals create a solution here.
Your fictional proposal for the extension of Florida 589 is actually in line with the once proposed Tampa to Jacksonville Turnpike from back in the late 1980s. FDOT wanted to add over 800 miles of limited access highways at the time, with the Tampa-Jacksonville route being one of them. It was shot down though because of strong opposition of the alignment running through environmentally sensitive areas as well as several NIMBY communities speaking their mind (namely in Alachua and Marion counties).
Though it never came to fruition, a piece of the route did get constructed, namely the Suncoast Parkway. Florida 589 does closely follow what would have been the southern portion of the toll facility. The First Coast Outer Beltway (Florida 23), currently being modified and constructed in Duval and Clay Counties, is along the northern piece of what would have been the Tampa-Jacksonville Turnpike.
Ok, There is an investigation about how you can be overcharged on Florida Toll Roads.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/some-sections-of-toll-roads-more-costly-than-others/26083740
They say you should use it for long distant Travels. Then that would make no since because people have to drive to avoid something. Bad
Quote from: Guysdrive780 on November 18, 2014, 10:45:59 PM
Ok, I can't correctly parse what I read.
This happens with all barrier-system toll roads: if you get on just before the barrier and get off just after, unless there's some sort of refund system (like in Oklahoma) you end up paying more per mile.