Driving I-89 through Vermont and New Hampshire today, I realized that the interstate junctions with neither I-91 nor I-93 are numbered. Both roads otherwise feature exit numbers. Both have an Exit 1 that precedes the unnumbered Interstate junction. They're both the last exit on 89 in their respective state, but the road continues through both (if only barely in NH).
Anyone know why this is done? Is this common anyplace else?
Some states make a practice to not number Interstate to Interstate interchanges. The theory is that these are not really "exits" as you are not leaving the Interstate System.
Interesting. Vermont and New Hampshire seem to both be inconsistent in this regard, because Vermont has exits off 91 for 89 and 93 that are numbered, and one from 89 to 189. New Hampshire has an exit number from 293 to 93, and one from 93 to 393, but none from 93 to 89 or 293.
On eastbound Hwy. 402 in Point Edward, Ontario, just east of the Blue Water Bridge customs plaza, there used to be an unnumbered exit to Venetian Boulevard before Exit 1 to Front Street. The Venetian exit was closed when the secondary truck inspection area was expanded a few years ago.
I-93 between exits 34A and 34B (I think). (Even if you say it's not I-93, it's still a numbered-exit road.)
Cemetery on MA 128 North between exits 25 and 24, and then another "exit" just before Exit 21 (not sure why it's even there).
Before PA switched to mile-based, most (if not all) of the interstate-to-interstate junctions were not numbered...excluding the PA Turnpike.
There are a couple of exits off the Wilbur Cross Parkway (CT 15) between Exits 66 and 67 that are marked for a DOT Maintenance Garage, but they are regularly used for those who want to use Miller Ave. Then there's some inconsistencies at the ends of highways. On CT 9, the southern end exits for I-95 do NOT have numbers, but the northern end exits for I-84 are numbered 31 and 32. The southern end of I-91 does not have exit numbers for I-95, as does not either end of I-384. The east end of I-291 does not have exit numbers, but the west end does (1A for I-91 and CT 218, and 1B for I-91 north). I-691 also has exit numbers (1 & 2) at the west end at I-84. CT 8's ends are not numbered, as are neither end of US 7.
Are the exits for the National Park roads on the NJ side of Del Water Gap on I-80 unnumbered?
Quote from: Beeper1 on November 30, 2014, 12:01:12 AM
Are the exits for the National Park roads on the NJ side of Del Water Gap on I-80 unnumbered?
Millbrook and Flatbrookville (Old Mine Road) is Exit 1 and signed as such.
The Dunnfield Creek Hiking Trailhead is not an numbered exit, nor is the random RIRO-interchange west of exits 4A-C.
New York occasionally doesn't (didn't, in at least one case) number freeway-freeway junctions. Until ~10 years ago, I-90 Exit 6A (I-787) was numberless. The western I-81/NY 17 interchange is unnumbered for both, as is the eastern one if heading east/south. I-81's interchanges with I-88 and I-690 are unnumbered for all freeways.
NYSTA-maintained roads never have numberless interchanges, with the sole exception being the Garden State Parkway Connector. Regions 3 and 9 don't usually number freeway-freeway interchanges unless the Thruway or I-481 is the intersecting road. Notably, just about everything downstate has an exit number, with the exception of a couple unnamed spurs and the Taconic/Sprain Brook, including all freeway-freeway junctions.
Debatable example: US 31 in Michigan has two unnumbered exits on its expressway section in Holland, Chicago Dr/BL-196 and Lakewood Blvd, even though there is a numbered exit (47) after it separates from I-196, and numbered exits resume when US 31 becomes freeway again in Grand Haven.
You could argue that these exits should be unnumbered because it's not a freeway, but MDOT has been moving toward numbering all exits, and in a similar situation, US 127 has a numbered exit (M-57, exit 109) on its non-freeway portion. But US 31 has new Clearview signs, and still no numbers.
I-95 is not numbered at the eastern terminus of I-4 near Daytona, but FL 400 is given an exit number at the same interchange. I am guessing the reason for this is like NY, VT, and NH not numbering interstate to interstate junctions as in theory you are not leaving the interstate system for this, but to exit I-4 onto FL 400 you indeed are.
Vermont uses more numbers than not. I-89/189 is 13 for 89 and a terminus for 189. I-91/93 is 19 for 91 and a terminus for 93. I-91/89 is an inconsistently signed 10 for 91 and unnumbered for 89.
New York numbers most of them with a few exceptions. Since the only numbered terminii in NY are I-781, I-99, and NY 390, I'm not counting those situations. The only unnumbered one in Region 3 is I-690/81. Region 9 has most of them, including the eastern I-81/86, which is incredibly inconsistent. I-86 west to I-81 south and US 11 is 75. I-81 north is 2E for I-86 and 2W for US 11; I-81 south is 2 for US 11 and unnumbered for staying on NY 17/I-86. Actually, I take that back, it's consistent - the only unnumbered movements are NY 17/I-86 though lanes (unlike the western junction and I-88). I-90/787 was definitely inconsistent - 5 for 787 and unnumbered for 90 until it became 6A.
Are at-grades considered exits? I mentioned the ones on MA 128 before. There are also the ones on MA 2 (between exits 26 and 33).
And all rest areas.
There's the private "Bazaar Cattle Crossing" exit on I-35 Kansas Turnpike in Chase County, KS in the Flint Hills. The signs for that exit are unnumbered and the sign says "Cattle Pens" while the overpass say "Bazaar Cattle Crossing". Here's a Google Street View of the exit: https://goo.gl/maps/5JKeq The reason why I am posting this is, it is signed like an exit but it is a private exit and is unnumbered. If The interchange had an Exit Number, it would be Exit 110.
Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
Are at-grades considered exits? I mentioned the ones on MA 128 before. There are also the ones on MA 2 (between exits 26 and 33).
And all rest areas.
No, rest areas are not what I'm talking about. I am talking about interchanges with roads that under normal circumstances would be numbered exits, but for some reason in certain situations are not, despite an otherwise consistent sequence of numbered exits.
At-grade intersections are not really relevant for the purposes of the question.
None of I-71's interchanges in downtown Cincinnati are numbered ------ doesn't matter whether it's going North or South ----- or whether it's an exit to another interstate (I-471, I-75) or an exit to a non-interstate road (3rd Street, Columbia Parkway).
All these, should, in theory be Exits 1A, 1B, 1C, et cetera.
The ramp to Hwy 11, from the 400 north of Barrie, ON does not have a number, despite there being consistent exit numbering throughout the length of the 400. Apparently once the current construction at that interchange has been completed next year, an exit number will then be posted.
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2014, 12:48:41 PM
None of I-71's interchanges in downtown Cincinnati are numbered ------ doesn't matter whether it's going North or South ----- or whether it's an exit to another interstate (I-471, I-75) or an exit to a non-interstate road (3rd Street, Columbia Parkway).
All these, should, in theory be Exits 1A, 1B, 1C, et cetera.
I wonder if they did it to keep non locals from getting confused with I 75.
In California this almost seems to be handled on a case-by-case basis:
I-80's junction with US 101 is given an exit number off of 101 north (433B) but none so far southbound from the Central Freeway.
US 50/Business 80's west terminus was not given a number from eastbound 80 during the 2009-era Sacramento sign upgrade project; for that matter, at the point where the 50/99/Business 80 concurrency ends along eastbound 50, there are no exit numbers eastbound (but conversely, 6B/6C along westbound 50).
No exit numbers yet at the MacArthur Maze.
Where the NJ Turnpike begins off of I-295 North, it is not signed as an exit. In fact, it's the through movement with 3 lanes vs. 2 lanes for I-295. This is surrounded by Exit 1A to the south and 1B to the north.
The NJ Turnpike northbound does not number the exit for US-40, but it's south of the tolls, so isn't "really" on the Turnpike.
A similar situation exists on the US-130 exit on the NJ Turnpike Pennsylvania Extension, though that has a secret exit number (6A).
I-287 doesn't number "Exit 0" for the NJ Turnpike, but you could argue that the exit is on NJ-440 which I-287 becomes at that point, and 440 doesn't number its exits. NJ-18 has 2 freeway segments, but only the southern one has exit numbers.
Almost forgot, probably the most pertinent one to the thread. The left exit from I-295 South to NJ-42 South (between Exits 26 and 25) is unnumbered, even though all other exits created by the 295/42/76 interchange project received numbers, including a similar left exit from I-295 North to I-76 West (Exit 27).
Exit for Cornwell Heights Park-and-Ride lot (http://goo.gl/maps/0T5md) (for SEPTA's Cornwell Heights train station) off I-95 South in Bensalem, PA.
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 01, 2014, 01:02:57 PM
Exit for Cornwell Heights Park-and-Ride lot (http://goo.gl/maps/0T5md) (for SEPTA's Cornwell Heights train station) off I-95 South in Bensalem, PA.
There are several park-and-rides on the Garden State Parkway like this, but they are all also service areas. There's one on the Atlantic City Expressway in Atlantic City in the median, which is signed as a park-and-ride as well, but does have gas stations (yes, plural, it's huge) as well. I'm not sure that should count.
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 03:58:56 PM
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
It does happen, though. Case in point: Exit 15X in New Jersey
Quote from: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 04:53:39 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 03:58:56 PM
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
It does happen, though. Case in point: Exit 15X in New Jersey
Which is a local-access interchange that happens to serve a park and ride first. Also note that the Turnpike technically numbers toll booths, not exits.
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2014, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 04:53:39 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 03:58:56 PM
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
It does happen, though. Case in point: Exit 15X in New Jersey
Which is a local-access interchange that happens to serve a park and ride first. Also note that the Turnpike technically numbers toll booths, not exits.
It was built for the station. And while it may be a toll booth designation, it is
signed as Exit 15X.
Quote from: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 01, 2014, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 04:53:39 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 03:58:56 PM
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
It does happen, though. Case in point: Exit 15X in New Jersey
Which is a local-access interchange that happens to serve a park and ride first. Also note that the Turnpike technically numbers toll booths, not exits.
It was built for the station. And while it may be a toll booth designation, it is signed as Exit 15X.
It was built to serve the station, not the park-and-ride. One of the major original complaints about that station was that it lacked any parking, a complaint rebuffed by officials who said it was never meant to be driven to and parked at, but rather as a transfer point from one line to another, with some drop-off, etc.
Functionally, 15 X works just like any other regular exit that empties into local streets, many of which, I imagine, also have park-and-rides at them.
Regardless, they're still not what I was asking about.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 05:56:45 PMIt was built to serve the station, not the park-and-ride. One of the major original complaints about that station was that it lacked any parking, a complaint rebuffed by officials who said it was never meant to be driven to and parked at, but rather as a transfer point from one line to another, with some drop-off, etc.
A similar argument can be/was made for the Cornwell Heights Park-and-Ride ramps off I-95 South (& PA 63 East) that serves the SEPTA train station (the station was there prior to the interchange and parking lot).
Ride in the Park-and-Ride can also mean riding in a train as well.
Quote from: cl94 on December 01, 2014, 05:41:05 PM
And while it may be a toll booth designation, it is signed as Exit 15X.
My point is that it's different from the unnumbered exits after the exit 14C toll plaza, one of which is signed for a light rail park and ride but serves local streets. NJTP practice is that exits without toll booths usually go unnumbered (such as US 130 on the PA Extension), with the main exception on the ex-NJDOT part of I-95.
On the other hand, I-78 west has four unnumbered exits after NJDOT maintenance begins, one of which is accessible without paying.
Texas has a few random frontage road slip ramps that go unnumbered.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 30, 2014, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
Are at-grades considered exits? I mentioned the ones on MA 128 before. There are also the ones on MA 2 (between exits 26 and 33).
And all rest areas.
No, rest areas are not what I'm talking about. I am talking about interchanges with roads that under normal circumstances would be numbered exits, but for some reason in certain situations are not, despite an otherwise consistent sequence of numbered exits.
At-grade intersections are not really relevant for the purposes of the question.
On the flip side, Texas will occasionally number rest areas.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6972106,-97.1627704,3a,75y,178.62h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1semt9SZnZ2sSVlka21Gq17A!2e0
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 29, 2014, 08:14:13 PM
Some states make a practice to not number Interstate to Interstate interchanges. The theory is that these are not really "exits" as you are not leaving the Interstate System.
IIRC, in the early days of exit numbering, BPR encouraged states NOT to give exit numbers to interstate to interstate connections for the reason you cited. New Hampshire is one of a number of states that still follow this practice.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 29, 2014, 08:14:13 PM
Some states make a practice to not number Interstate to Interstate interchanges. The theory is that these are not really "exits" as you are not leaving the Interstate System.
And though that might seem like an odd concept today–given the prevalence of both Interstate and non-Interstate freeways and expressways across the country–it has a precedent in the pre-Interstate Pennsylvania Turnpike.
The trumpet connecting the Turnpike mainline with the Northeast Extension was originally not numbered or named, and it generally wasn't included on the exit lists printed on maps and tickets. But there, the "you're not leaving the system" concept is much clearer. You wouldn't pass through a toll plaza (as with every numbered interchange); you'd keep the same toll ticket. And at the time, the experience of driving on a limited access freeway was still foreign to most people, so transitioning onto another freeway (rather than exiting onto a surface street) was something of a significant distinction.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8564/15313790413_53a4561d57_o.png)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 03:58:56 PM
No, park-and-rides and rest areas pretty much never have exit numbers. There is nothing unusual about them not being numbered.
I am talking about actual exits from the highway to other roads, actual interchanges that lack a number where all or most of the remaining interchanges have numbers, and the omission therefore stands out.
Some GSP service areas have accesses to other roadways, so they can function like actual exits. Aside, even some service areas are used as U-turns for incomplete interchanges...such as turning around at the AC service area to get to/from the south from US 30.
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 01, 2014, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 01, 2014, 05:56:45 PMIt was built to serve the station, not the park-and-ride. One of the major original complaints about that station was that it lacked any parking, a complaint rebuffed by officials who said it was never meant to be driven to and parked at, but rather as a transfer point from one line to another, with some drop-off, etc.
A similar argument can be/was made for the Cornwell Heights Park-and-Ride ramps off I-95 South (& PA 63 East) that serves the SEPTA train station (the station was there prior to the interchange and parking lot). Ride in the Park-and-Ride can also mean riding in a train as well.
Park-and-ride is a place where you park your car and get into some form of transit (bus or train), or form a carpool (pre-arranged or "slug" style). It is no more or less legit to have a park and ride serve a train station as it is to serve carpoolers.
The whole concept of Secaucus Juntion not having parking was totally and completely baffling to me. It is the **PERFECT** location for a huge park-and-ride facility for both trains and buses into NYC, with dedicated access to the area's busiest highway. Why pay $20 a person to ride the train into the city from some far-flung suburb where parking is by permit only when you can drive almost all the way to the city, and drive from the highway directly to the train station and take a quick "shuttle" into the city. Makes perfect sense from the perspective of "keeping cars out of Manhattan".
I knew 100% without a doubt that if NJ Transit didn't build a parking lot, that private parking operators would capitalize on the demand and do it, and they did.
The argument at the time was that the station was strictly a "transfer station" between various train lines and not a full fledged transit hub. Yeah, it was a pretty dumb argument.
Can't forget this now closed exit on the GSP: http://goo.gl/maps/ZPd21
Quote from: NJRoadfan on December 02, 2014, 08:17:31 PM
The argument at the time was that the station was strictly a "transfer station" between various train lines and not a full fledged transit hub. Yeah, it was a pretty dumb argument.
Would have been a better argument if they didn't build an exit right to it, and the single most overwrought ramp in the state (yes, I get why it's like that) at that.
Flawed logic that flies in the face of anything transit planners are taught.
Quote from: bassoon1986 on December 02, 2014, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 30, 2014, 12:44:25 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 30, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
Are at-grades considered exits? I mentioned the ones on MA 128 before. There are also the ones on MA 2 (between exits 26 and 33).
And all rest areas.
No, rest areas are not what I'm talking about. I am talking about interchanges with roads that under normal circumstances would be numbered exits, but for some reason in certain situations are not, despite an otherwise consistent sequence of numbered exits.
At-grade intersections are not really relevant for the purposes of the question.
On the flip side, Texas will occasionally number rest areas.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6972106,-97.1627704,3a,75y,178.62h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1semt9SZnZ2sSVlka21Gq17A!2e0
Quebec as well
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nysroads.com%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2FQC%2Fa40%2F101_0516-s.JPG&hash=7e9afc342baf20a0c06cb2d8589a6a3b6ad31710)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 02, 2014, 09:52:28 PM
Would have been a better argument if they didn't build an exit right to it, and the single most overwrought ramp in the state (yes, I get why it's like that) at that.
That was part of the future plans of developing the air rights of the station. The foundation was designed (at considerable expense) with construction of an office building on top. You say that requires parking? Nonsense, everyone will take the train! (transit planning thinking again)
Quote from: mtantillo on December 02, 2014, 06:29:13 PM
The whole concept of Secaucus Juntion not having parking was totally and completely baffling to me. It is the **PERFECT** location for a huge park-and-ride facility for both trains and buses into NYC, with dedicated access to the area's busiest highway. Why pay $20 a person to ride the train into the city from some far-flung suburb where parking is by permit only when you can drive almost all the way to the city, and drive from the highway directly to the train station and take a quick "shuttle" into the city. Makes perfect sense from the perspective of "keeping cars out of Manhattan".
One could make the argument that to promote transit usage you don't WANT people driving to Secaucus and just taking a shuttle, you want people to take the train from further out. I don't think this is why they didn't add parking but I have heard it made as an argument against adding parking.
Anyways, to the topic at hand: the Hutchinson River Parkway's exit to I-684 lacks a number. This exit was added between 26E-W and 27 after those exits were numbered so it doesn't fit in the sequence, but why it isn't exit 26A or 26N, I don't know.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 03, 2014, 11:25:16 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on December 02, 2014, 06:29:13 PM
The whole concept of Secaucus Juntion not having parking was totally and completely baffling to me. It is the **PERFECT** location for a huge park-and-ride facility for both trains and buses into NYC, with dedicated access to the area's busiest highway. Why pay $20 a person to ride the train into the city from some far-flung suburb where parking is by permit only when you can drive almost all the way to the city, and drive from the highway directly to the train station and take a quick "shuttle" into the city. Makes perfect sense from the perspective of "keeping cars out of Manhattan".
One could make the argument that to promote transit usage you don't WANT people driving to Secaucus and just taking a shuttle, you want people to take the train from further out. I don't think this is why they didn't add parking but I have heard it made as an argument against adding parking.
Another possibility is that perhaps the developers wanted to make Secaucus Jct into a destination as opposed to an origin for commuters. If there were a lot of office buildings in the area, then perhaps people from the outlying suburbs can take the train from a far suburb to Secaucus to work instead of driving.
In a similar vein, Newark doesn't have much parking. For those who commute from far suburbs, they can take the train to Newark for work, but those who want to take the train from Newark to NYC, they would need to take some other form of public transit to the Newark train station or pay for a garage nearby.
In the 1980s, what's now called "Secaucus Junction" was proposed as the hub of a major real estate development called "Allied Junction." The biggest train station built in the region in decades got built, the development it was going to be the centerpiece of... not yet.
Quote from: robbones on November 30, 2014, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: keithvh on November 30, 2014, 12:48:41 PM
None of I-71's interchanges in downtown Cincinnati are numbered ------ doesn't matter whether it's going North or South ----- or whether it's an exit to another interstate (I-471, I-75) or an exit to a non-interstate road (3rd Street, Columbia Parkway).
All these, should, in theory be Exits 1A, 1B, 1C, et cetera.
I wonder if they did it to keep non locals from getting confused with I 75.
That's a good point. For traffic moving from I-71 south to I-75 North (or vice versa, I-75 south to I-71 North), that could get somewhat confusing.
Just from reading them, those movements may not seem particularly common, but they actually are relatively common. For instance, from the west side to Hyde Park, I-74 to I-75 south to I-71 north can work just as well as I-74 to I-75 north to the Lateral to I-71 south.
I seem to remember that before the FWW reconstruction, suffixes were unique between I-71 and I-75, like the exit 2 loop in Kansas City.
Quote from: NE2 on December 05, 2014, 03:07:06 PM
I seem to remember that before the FWW reconstruction, suffixes were unique between I-71 and I-75, like the exit 2 loop in Kansas City.
They were. I don't remember if this was only on maps, but I remember I-471 being Exit 1J. Think there was a 1H as well.
Quote from: cl94 on December 05, 2014, 03:14:26 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 05, 2014, 03:07:06 PM
I seem to remember that before the FWW reconstruction, suffixes were unique between I-71 and I-75, like the exit 2 loop in Kansas City.
They were. I don't remember if this was only on maps, but I remember I-471 being Exit 1J. Think there was a 1H as well.
Ah, they were signed: http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/fww1998-tour4.html