Hi all,
After some research I did at work, I wrote a brief article about the history of the State Road system from 1955 until today. I have it hosted as a PDF here:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~jlearned/garnet-jpl02/History_State_Roads.pdf (http://mailer.fsu.edu/~jlearned/garnet-jpl02/History_State_Roads.pdf)
I hope you all find it informative. Let me know what you think.
Very cool. The Miami-Dade County "Roads" mentioned, consist of 921, 943, 980, 956, 927, 9339, 9282, 9333, 977, 996, 962, 963, 952, 956, right? Are there others which might be unlisted?
"When the 1977 realignment happened, roads that were transferred to the counties kept their number, but as county roads. This is why a fractured, numbered county road system exists."
Didn't the state secondary system also have a fractured road network? There are 5 different CR 399's right now for instance. Or where their implied overlaps that joined all the different segments, or when they made the county road network, did they simply reuse numbers to eliminate suffixed highways and to accommodate numbers for other areas?
The 1977 realignment also coincided with the change from "Keys shields" to the current state highway sign design.
"The 1955 legislation capped the total mileage of the Primary Road system at 11,300 miles..."
Is there any kind of cap still in place? Seems when state road mileage is transferred from a county, that the county must gain something from the state. Or is that not practiced here in every jurisdictional change?
Great article, I enjoyed reading it and learned a bit more about the state road system.
Very interesting article. Having been in Florida all my life I have seen numerous changes to the state highway system (as well as the Interstate and U.S. highway systems). As far as some of the state highway numbers changing, the only ones I remember changing in the Fort Myers area (where I grew up) were FL 873 to FL 884 and CR 884 (Lehigh Acres) and SR 80B to CR 865 (Ortiz Avenue). I vaguely remember FL 78 reaching all the way to Pine Island to meet FL 767 at one time before the "realignment".
Quote from: AARoads on August 05, 2009, 08:06:31 AM
"When the 1977 realignment happened, roads that were transferred to the counties kept their number, but as county roads. This is why a fractured, numbered county road system exists."
Didn't the state secondary system also have a fractured road network? There are 5 different CR 399's right now for instance. Or where their implied overlaps that joined all the different segments, or when they made the county road network, did they simply reuse numbers to eliminate suffixed highways and to accommodate numbers for other areas?
The 1977 realignment also coincided with the change from "Keys shields" to the current state highway sign design.
"The 1955 legislation capped the total mileage of the Primary Road system at 11,300 miles..."
Is there any kind of cap still in place? Seems when state road mileage is transferred from a county, that the county must gain something from the state. Or is that not practiced here in every jurisdictional change?
Great article, I enjoyed reading it and learned a bit more about the state road system.
I am not sure about existence of the name SR (or CR) number for multiple sections of road. I know that in District 4, we had two sections of SR 809, Military Trail in Palm Beach from Glades Road north, and also Powerline Road in Broward from Sunrise to Sample. They never connected, I don't know why. Also, I don't know why renumbering happened for roads that stayed on the state system. SR 786 used to be SR 74, SR 736 used to be SR 82, and so on. That's further research that I'll have to do if documents are ever found. FDOT is horrible at keeping paper records. Hell, we can't even find official documents regarding roads that were transferred to the counties!
There is no official cap in mileage, but the position of FDOT these days is that they don't want to drastically add mileage to the State Road system, but it's not politically popular to remove mileage either. District 4 wants to extend SR 800 over a greater length of Spanish River Blvd (I handled documents on that at work today actually), but in turn, they are going to take Yamato Road off the system. The process for both of these transfers (they're lumped together) is about halfway done. I received the Cultural Assessment for them today.
So the bottom line is FDOT doesn't want to expand its system, so roads will be taken off the system in lieu of adding new ones on.
This is just an opinion. If something is found to back the information up, great. If not, it was a great story ;-) :biggrin:
The renumbering for roads which stayed on the system was probably done to "centralize" the numbers. I visited with Leslie Mami in Tallahassee and one question I asked her was about the 4-digit routes. She showed me planning maps of them, and said it was one person's job (maybe more?) to renumber all the repetitive routes. A 1976 Legislation was the reason why the 4-digits came up; there were too many numbers (5-6 sections of CR 280, CR 225 for examples), so this was to alleviate confusion. As for the renumbering of state routes, that was probably by the same process. There were two sections of SR/S- 74 west of Lake Okeechobee and PGA Blvd made it three. Plus, 2-di routes are for main connections between cities, but PGA Blvd and Davie Blvd probably didn't fit that category (and really do not).
</story/opinion>
When you worked in Tallahassee, did they still have the filing cabinet, in the TSO office, full of folders and papers from the 1950s-1970s? Underneath that was where the 4-di map plans were kept.
As for SR 800/SR 794, Wikipedia is quasi-correct (albeit ahead of the game) on that information?
In order to revive this thread with other history, for anyone who is interested, I'll post findings from sifting through old maps.
Right now, concentrating on Brevard County:
-In 1951, SR 522 is shown to have existed in Melbourne on what could now be Lagoon Ave, Crescent Dr, and Avenue D from where Babcock St meets the RR tracks, to US 1.
-Also from 1951, it seems that SR 406 was on Main Street in Titusville from what looks like DeLeon Street to US 1, and SR 405 came up the curvy part of Park Avenue and seems to have turned right onto Main Street to meet SR 406 at DeLeon. It hasn't been signed north of that at all. And US 1 went west on Garden St and north on Norwood Avenue.
-What is now CR 502 (Barnes Blvd) was first christened SR 570 in October 1983, then SR 502 in December 1985, and finally CR 502 in December 1991.
-SR 405 was added to South Street between Park Avenue and US 1 in December 1985, so that should be when SR 406A officially died.
-In 1951, US 1 used Florida and Forrest Avenues in Cocoa.
In 2010, US 883 was established along the old U.S. 331 at Freeport.
In 2010, Interstate 75 was truncated to Exit 2 and supplanted by Toll Florida 924.
In 2010, U.S. 98/441 were relocated onto former CR 880.
Noted these three "changes" on the 2010 Florida official highway map.
Quote from: AARoads on May 02, 2010, 01:01:07 AM
In 2010, US 883 was established along the old U.S. 331 at Freeport.
I don't care if it was supplanted by US Flamethrower Jesus - until you find me a green US-331 shield, all other reality is without meaning.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 02, 2010, 01:19:34 AM
Quote from: AARoads on May 02, 2010, 01:01:07 AM
In 2010, US 883 was established along the old U.S. 331 at Freeport.
I don't care if it was supplanted by US Flamethrower Jesus - until you find me a green US-331 shield, all other reality is without meaning.
We should petition Walton County to formulate some of those.
Bay County:
1951: SR 274 is possibly routed along Barnes Road with a western terminus at US 231.
1952: SR 22 along CR 28 from SR 30 to SR 75.
SR 75 is shielded on a bridge that is due south of downtown Panama City
1954: SR 274 is retracted and SR 167 appears in its current routing (now CR 167).
SR 22-A runs from SR 22 to SR 30 along School, 7th, Transmitter, 14th, and Bob Little.
SR 22 (on CR 28) is extended from SR 75 to SR 77.
1956: SR 30-C appears on Clara Avenue.
1958: SR 392A is on Transmitter from SR 22-A (14th) north to Game Farm Road and then west to SR 389.
1960: SR 30-B is along Joan/Moylan from SR 392 to SR 30-A.
SR 392-B is on current CR 747 (Magnolia Beach Road, I think).
*No maps from 1961 to 1974*
1975: SR 729 from either Business US 98 or US 98, along Boatrace and Berthe to SR 22.
SR 735 from SR 22 to US 231 along Transmitter.
SR 746 from SR 389 to SR 735 along Game Farm Road.
SR 743 from SR 22 to US 98 along School
SR 22-A has been reduced to a routing along 14th and Bob Little, from SR 735 to SR 22
SR 744 from SR 77 to SR 75 along Baldwin
SR 736 (former SR 22, presently CR 28) from Business US 98 to US 98.
SR 757 from SR 392 to US 98 (now CR 3031)
SR 747 along Magnolia Beach Road
SR 745 along South Thomas Drive
SR 30-A (unrelated to the others), 30-D, 30-E, 30-F, 30-H, 30-J have all been implemented in Panama City Beach,
in addition to 30-C and 30-B.
1977: SR 719 added, along what is now CR 2315, between SR 22 and US 231 & SR 390 (<-- which is now CR 2293).
The "1983, revised 1988" shows all the four-digit routes implemented throughout the county, so I'm unsure of when they changed over the 7xx numbers to the 4-digit CRs.
I think the coolest history is the changing of the interstate highway system to reflect the mile markers rather the exit number. That way when we enter Duval county and see only 380+ miles till downtown miami it feels more realistic than the old 286!
there are 286 exits on I-95 in Florida??? Damn. Had I been forced to guess, I would've said "about 100".
how many are there on I-10? don't tell me over 200 there too... there are a few sections where it's 15+ miles between exits.
Anyone have the PDF? The link is now dead.
The highest exit number on Interstate 95 prior to the mileage-based exit numbering system was Exit 129 in Nassau County.
Okeechobee:
1936, rev Jan 1946:
-66 is on 700's alignment from Highlands County Line to 70
-710 on Center Street alignment heading east from 70
-710 followed what is now SE 9th Drive near SE 52 Street (Southeasterly on a tree/track line that can be seen via satellite maps, what is now 63rd Street connected to it) and 710 followed this route until it turned sharper to the SE, then made a sharp S-Turn near the present-day curvature of 710, north of CR 15A (about the 6200 block at Sherman, FL).
-68 runs from 66 to 15 via Potter Road
-68 is proposed from 15 to St. Lucie County Line.
1936, rev Jan 1951:
-710 on Center Street alignment heading east from 70
-700/70 maybe on Park Street??
-700 is on current alignment.
-68 runs from 700 to 15 via Potter Road and from 15 to St. Lucie County Line
Nov 54, rep Jan 55:
-710 still on sharp curve at Sherman.
-15A from 700/15 to 710.
-Temp US 98 is south of Okeechobee, maybe terminating at SR 70 & SR 15 in downtown Okeechobee?
-68 west terminus at 700, and still runs on Potter Road.
It's a shame that development in Sandestin has erased any clue of where Walton CR 187 (former S-187?) used to be located. The southern terminus should be on the north side of the Hilton (where there's a road called Elephant Walk) with it running due north along what's now Tivoli Drive to end at US 98 halfway between Sandestin Blvd and Topsail Beach Blvd.
Edit:
After looking over many Walton County maps, SR 187 originally was located on Village Road (east of Topsail Beach Blvd), and possibly had two spurs off to the left (can't confirm it). It's shown on later maps that Village Road became labeled "P" for Private, and 187 was relocated onto the route listed at the top of this post.
From FDOT files...
-SR 415 (along today's SR 421) was placed on there as an S-SR on 1/18/77, upgraded to SR on 8/23/79, then renumbered to SR 421 on 5/23/83.
Additions to Primary System:
-89 from US 90 to SR 87 [5/22/62]
1964:
-688 from 697 to 55
-694 from 697 to 55
-838 (on Alligator Alley) from a point approximately 10.6 miles east of S-858 to SR 29 and from the Collier County Line to SR 84 at Andytown.
-45A as the Venice Bypass
-115A from 15 to Myrtle Ave
-827 from US 441 to Recreation Site #9
Additions to Secondary System:
1962:
-33A (Edgewood Drive) from the East Limits of Lakeland to 35/700 (1.209 miles)
-219A from 200 to 26
-23 from 25 to 121 (south of Gainesville)
-315 from S-214 to 21
-30A from S-392A (Transmitter Road) to 22 [this is where it wraps around the east side of Panama City]
-97A from Enon, north to Walnut Hill
-261 from 20, north to 61
-809 as the bridge and approaches at the Broward & Palm Beach County Line where it goes over the Hillsboro Canal
-840A as the two bridges approximately 19 miles north of SR 90.
-951 from Isle of Capri to Old Marco Junction
-808 on Palmetto Park Road from NE 2nd Ave to A1A
-507 as the bridge over Tillman Canal
-478 from 19 to 1.103 miles east.
-207A from River Road to 207
1964:
-693 (66th St) from 595 (Tyrone) to 694 (74th Ave)
-315 from 21 to the East and South by 2.262 miles
-240 from S-245 to S-241
-115A (Soutel Drive) from 15 to 115
-274 from 267 to S-268
-4B (Stockade Road) from S-189 to 4
-281 as the bridge and approaches as Mulatto Bayou
-824 (Moffett Road) from 9 to Old Dixie Highway
-806 from 91 to Swinton Ave
-765 from Lee County Line to 45
-579A from 52 to S-578
-233 from S-229A to 200
-322 from 45 to the Marion County Line
-323 from 45 to S-322
-132 from Suwannee River State Park to 51
-361 from End of existing maintenance (east of Perry) to the south by 0.245 miles
-390 (Majette Tower Road, now CR 2293) from US 231 east by 1.263 miles
-257 from US 90 to S-146, including Leg "A" (the leg serving the church)
-263A from 263 to S-157
-822 from NW 64th Ave to US 441
-708 from US 1 to A1A (Hobe Sound)
-722 from US 1 to A1A (Port Salerno)
-530 from S-545 to Limit St. (less the bridge exceptions)
-665 from 1.0 miles west of Lilly to the northwest and north by 5.533 miles
-133 from US 41/US 441 to US 90
-181A from Walton County Line to US 90 and the leg to SR 81 (most likely the east-west spur to Pirate Cove Rd)
-278 from S-167 to 73
-280 from 277 to 77 including the leg going north to the southern Chipley City Limits
-834 from US 441 to S-809
-828 (Le Jeune Road) at the FEC Railroad Crossing at US 1 and Ponce Deleon Blvd)
-475 due to I-75 alignment from a point south of Marion County Line to the existing maintenance.
-315 from Peters Creek to the southwest by 2.885 miles
-341 from S-242 to US 90
-351A from US 19/98/27A to S-351
-332 from S-336 to 345
-336 from S-347 to 345
-339A from 500 to Blue Springs
-239 from S-239A from S-238A
-238A from S-239 to 18
-22C (East Street in Parker) from SR 30, south to 4th Street (0.225 miles)
-259 from 57 to Mount Olive Church
-142 from Leon County Line to S-259
-157 (on Mission) from S-158 to Douglas Road
-271 as the bridge and approaches at Telogia Creek
-270A from S-270 to S-271 via Rock Bluff Church
-180 as the bridge and approches at Boggy Hollow Creek
-284 from 280 to the north by 0.716 miles
-288 from Orange Hill Church to S-273 at Orange Hill (1.750 miles) [Interesting that it was renumbered to today's CR 156.]
-842 from East Acre Drive to Bryan Blvd
-811A (Andrews) from NE 16th Street to approximately 200 feet north of 816
-505A from North Relief Canal Bridge to S-510
-809 from the FEC Railroad, east to US 1 (Lake Park area?)
-475A from 48 at the northwest limits of Bushnell, north and east to SR 35
Abandonments:
-Portion of S-19A which was the old connection to SR 19 south of Eustis, due to relocation of SR 500 from milepost 2.335 to 2.543...length of 0.208 miles to be returned to Lake County [1962]
-Old 25 south of Micanopy [1964]
-In Korona, S-324 from US 1 to the north by 0.726 miles (this is where Old Dixie Highway meets US 1 in southern Flagler County, the road going due north is what's described, but it is today shielded as Flagler CR 325) [1964]
-405 on Main Street to Washington Street, milepost 5.079 to 5.760 (0.681 miles) [1964]
-US 1's old route in Malabar, it was realigned for 1.411 miles [1964]
-US 1 from Ti-Co Airport Road at milepost 32.414 to milepost 35.471 south of SR 50 (this is where US 1 used to bow east of its current alignment at the intersection of SR 405) [1964]
A 1934 map of St. Johns County shows US 1 possibly using a now-defunct bridge (and route) along Arapaho Avenue, crossing over a (dismantled) bridge to the intersection of Riberia and Duero, up Duero to MLK and up MLK to King. I can't tell if it used that routing since the King Street, Leonardi Street, and Old Dixie Highway leg jumping back to current US 1 at Arapaho is shaded in the same color....and neither have shields on them.
A 1951 map of Escambia County has Alt US 90 going along SR 10A, NOT bypassing Pensacola as today. US 90 is not shielded at all, except on each end (Alabama State Line and Santa Rosa County Line), but Alt US 90 is shielded twice with SR 10A in Central Pensacola. Maybe they were playing around with the idea of doing this, or maybe it was actually briefly signed??
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00016154/00001/1x?td=escambia&vo=12&vp=2078,4236
It is absolutely amazing when FDOT's "planning maps" (best term to describe them) are based off of real highways.
In the "planning map" for Leon County, SR 362 was shown "proposed" along the east-west portion of Gaines Street and a ~1982 map of Leon County shows SR 362 added to Gaines Street (which would later be renumbered to SR 371).
The "planning map" for Duval County listed S-21G and S-21A in two certain sections of Jacksonville, and a 1956 map of Duval County shows the actual SR 21G and SR 21A in those places. (Along with SR 5 spanning the Fuller Warren Bridge.)
These maps also help explain number gaps in the numbering system and now I really believe they are the real deal (even though they are from FDOT's headquarters).
Does anyone have any information on the history of US in south Miami-Dade in the Homestead/Florida City area? US 1 has jumped around a lot down there. Krome Ave (SR 997) is now where SR 5A Business US 1 in the mid 60's...
Quote from: jmdengr on April 19, 2011, 02:54:17 PM
Does anyone have any information on the history of US in south Miami-Dade in the Homestead/Florida City area? US 1 has jumped around a lot down there. Krome Ave (SR 997) is now where SR 5A Business US 1 in the mid 60's...
Here's the Dixie Highway alignment in 1919, from the turn by turn directions in the Automobile Blue Book (wait for the overlay to load): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=25.4765&lon=-80.4506&zoom=14&layers=M&relation=1260376
And a 1936 map: http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/100/f126/f126.htm
Thanks... Gave me a great starting point. Maybe someone can chime in on this:
In 1956 Dade County conveyed the right of way for the present US1, (now called State Road 5) at its present location, one block east of Krome. At some time between 1956 and the opening of the new road, Krome was designated State Road 5A, and "Business US1" until the new US1 was opened. After that, the portion of Krome was no longer a State Road but a "County maintained road".
In September 1982, the county re-conveyed the original right of way to DOT. That right of way was only 35 feet from the County Line. There was no mention of the 100 feet easement.
When the County originally conveyed the right of way to the state in 1931, it was only 35 feet from the center line and the Deed provided that if the "highway shall be lawfully and permanently
discontinued the Title.to the land shall immediately revert" to the County.
I believe that is what happened sometime between 1956 and 1972. That is why it was necessary for the county to convey the road back to the DOT in 1982.
I have the 1982 resolution, and right of way maps. I need the documents that show how the State either officially abandoned the Road or conveyed Title to the County.
If you've already looked through the county and state records, I don't know what else there is.
Thanks, wasn't sure if I was missing something.
What were these cartographers trying to show? [Kirkman and Sand Lake, 1960]
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00016517/00001/1x?search=orange&vo=14&vp=1732,3352
Same thing that's still there. The interchange was built for Martin Marietta.
The way it was drawn...rectangular with what looks like no access.
Yes, maps have errors.
Were there ever any plans to link up the sections of SR-2 from SR-189 to SR-81? Was 2 planned to go west of 189? And what's up with 602 in Okaloosa County? I could kind of understand it if Florida based their 3-digit numbers off of a parent 1-d or 2-d route, which they don't.
Quote from: route29 on November 01, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
Were there ever any plans to link up the sections of SR-2 from SR-189 to SR-81?
They do link up through short overlaps.
Quote from: route29 on November 01, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
Was 2 planned to go west of 189?
Pre-1945 SR 165 was planned to continue to Jay: http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2800/f2839/f2839z.htm http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2700/f2753/f2753z.htm
Quote from: route29 on November 01, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
And what's up with 602 in Okaloosa County?
I don't know. It apparently appeared between 1960 and 1967 as a state road (Okaloosa also had an 856 on Mooney Road in Fort Walton Beach, apparently created in 1972). There are a number of examples of current or former out-of-place routes, e.g. 112 in Miami and 4xx and 7xx in the Panhandle, but the two in Okaloosa strangely seem to be numbered off a parent (856 was near 85B and 85C). It's possible that it had been a number in an old countywide system.
Quote from: route29 on November 01, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
I could kind of understand it if Florida based their 3-digit numbers off of a parent 1-d or 2-d route, which they don't.
There was the recent 883, but otherwise they don't do that.
Quote from: NE2 on November 01, 2011, 11:14:22 PM
Quote from: route29 on November 01, 2011, 09:53:45 PM
Was 2 planned to go west of 189?
Pre-1945 SR 165 was planned to continue to Jay: http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2800/f2839/f2839z.htm http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2700/f2753/f2753z.htm
And that 1940 DOT map shows a bridge over the Escambia River at McDavid that the Rand McNally Road Atlas shows every year although its not been there in ages... Question is, when was it removed?
RE: SR 2
Maps, including reprints up to at least 1960, show SR 2 shielded in Santa Rosa County from SR 4 to the Okaloosa County Line along Hurricane Lake Rd (East of Munson). However, maps of Okaloosa County do not have SR 2 shielded west of SR 189 during any time frame.
SR 2 was defined in the 1945 renumbering as "From a point on SR 4 approximately three miles East of Munson Northeasterly via Blackman to junction with SR 85...".
Quote from: NE2 on October 05, 2011, 04:18:00 AM
Yes, maps have errors.
Like Hernando County Road 576 being described as Hernando County Road 420. I don't doubt that it ever had that designation years ago, but not in the past 13 years I've been in Florida.
Somewhere I also have a map of a pre World War II proposal to connect the two sections of what is today Citrus County Road 39, with a road along the Withlacoochee River that was never built.
Quote from: Alex on May 02, 2010, 01:01:07 AM
In 2010, US 883 was established along the old U.S. 331 at Freeport.
"US
883"? The highest-numbered US highway ever was the now-defunct US 830.
Quote from: Morriswa on April 26, 2012, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: Alex on May 02, 2010, 01:01:07 AM
In 2010, US 883 was established along the old U.S. 331 at Freeport.
"US 883"? The highest-numbered US highway ever was the now-defunct US 830.
That was a post designed to :biggrin: poke fun at the official 2010 Florida Highway map (
the 2012 is pretty bad in its own right...)
Lest us not forget Florida's US 909 and 915...
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/southeast/fl-922_eb_app_fl-909_915.jpg)
Where in the world is that?!
Florida.
Yes, Alex said it is in Florida. I want to know where in Florida?
Where State Roads 909 and 915 meet.
Quote from: Morriswa on April 27, 2012, 06:24:51 AM
Yes, Alex said it is in Florida. I want to know where in Florida?
not only is it within Florida, but it's also within the
boundaries of Florida. that should help narrow it down for you.
It's probably right here (http://g.co/maps/tyq7e) on US 922.
Quote from: Alex on August 05, 2009, 08:06:31 AM
"When the 1977 realignment happened, roads that were transferred to the counties kept their number, but as county roads. This is why a fractured, numbered county road system exists."
Didn't the state secondary system also have a fractured road network? There are 5 different CR 399's right now for instance. Or where their implied overlaps that joined all the different segments, or when they made the county road network, did they simply reuse numbers to eliminate suffixed highways and to accommodate numbers for other areas?
The 1977 realignment also coincided with the change from "Keys shields" to the current state highway sign design.
"The 1955 legislation capped the total mileage of the Primary Road system at 11,300 miles..."
Is there any kind of cap still in place? Seems when state road mileage is transferred from a county, that the county must gain something from the state. Or is that not practiced here in every jurisdictional change?
Great article, I enjoyed reading it and learned a bit more about the state road system.
Resurrecting another old thread. You've gotta love "SEARCH". As a relative newbie, I found this thread interesting. With respect to Florida's old secondary state route system being "fractured":
Without a doubt. I live north of Gainesville and spend a good bit of time 2-wheeling the area. There are a number of CR numbers that exist in multiple segments. Some make sense (sort of); others do not. Alachua CR237 extends from US441 in Hague (north of Gainesville) to SR235 southwest of Lacrosse. CR1493 extends northeast of LaCrosse from SR121. when it crosses the Santa Fe River into Bradford County, it becomes CR237 which terminates at SR18. then there's the dea-end section of Union County 237 which extends south from SR100 several miles east of Lake Butler (actually, I am not sure that it really dead ends or if the pavement ends - but I believe that there is a "Dead End" or "No Outlet" sign just off or 100). CR 237 jogs east for a short distance then turns north off of 100 to connect with the (more or less) east-west section of 121 south of Raiford.
Speaking of Alachua County...does anyone know if Alachua County Road #1491 used to be a state highway of any kind? It runs about seven miles from CR236 just east of I-75, heads north then east to connect with CR241 just south of the Santa Fe River. I've not been able to find it on any old maps so it may well have been an unnumbered county road. BTW: It's a kick-*ss motorcycle road if you're a fellow 2-wheeler.
While we're on the subject...the southbound I-75 mileage sign just past Exit #414 indicated STATE Route 236 9 miles ahead as recently as 2003 when we first moved to North Florida.
One more that, perhaps, someone can answer: Was there really a S-791 in Union County? It is a short segment which parallels CR241 north of 18 and connects to 241A. There is a weight limit sign on this road which dates to the late-1960's and it is definitely old DOT (or, perhaps, SRD) vintage. There's also a Union County 796 south of Lake Butler. FDOT/SRD did not use numbers this high in this part of Florida, did they?
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 15, 2014, 04:55:04 PM
Speaking of Alachua County...does anyone know if Alachua County Road #1491 used to be a state highway of any kind? It runs about seven miles from CR236 just east of I-75, heads north then east to connect with CR241 just south of the Santa Fe River. I've not been able to find it on any old maps so it may well have been an unnumbered county road.
See the last column here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_county_roads_in_Alachua_County,_Florida
CR 1491 is one of the few I haven't found on old maps.
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 15, 2014, 04:55:04 PM
One more that, perhaps, someone can answer: Was there really a S-791 in Union County? It is a short segment which parallels CR241 north of 18 and connects to 241A. There is a weight limit sign on this road which dates to the late-1960's and it is definitely old DOT (or, perhaps, SRD) vintage. There's also a Union County 796 south of Lake Butler.
Yes, those were SR 791 and SR 796 (there were also SR 793 and SR 796A). SR 795 was in Suwannee County (as was an older SR 417).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_county_roads_in_Union_County,_Florida
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 15, 2014, 04:55:04 PM
FDOT/SRD did not use numbers this high in this part of Florida, did they?
Near the end of the expansion they used whatever numbers were free, not caring where they came from. See the current 7xx routes near Pensacola.
Quote from: NE2 on December 15, 2014, 05:07:07 PM
Near the end of the expansion they used whatever numbers were free, not caring where they came from. See the current 7xx routes near Pensacola.
Thanks for the info. Never knew that.
So...CR1491 has you stumped, huh? Do I win a prize?
Quote from: D-Dey65 on February 26, 2012, 11:20:26 PM
Somewhere I also have a map of a pre World War II proposal to connect the two sections of what is today Citrus County Road 39, with a road along the Withlacoochee River that was never built.
I haven't been to Port Charlotte in years. And you guys (especially NE2), I'm sure, know this...but when they first built I-75 in Charlotte County in the early-1980's, Toledo Blade Boulevard was originally going to be designated as SR39 (I do not believe that it was ever signed as such), apparently with the intent to eventually extend it to connect with SR/CR39 in Manatee County.
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
So...CR1491 has you stumped, huh? Do I win a prize?
No, it was just never a state road.
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:45:23 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on February 26, 2012, 11:20:26 PM
Somewhere I also have a map of a pre World War II proposal to connect the two sections of what is today Citrus County Road 39, with a road along the Withlacoochee River that was never built.
I haven't been to Port Charlotte in years. And you guys (especially NE2), I'm sure, know this...but when they first built I-75 in Charlotte County in the early-1980's, Toledo Blade Boulevard was originally going to be designated as SR39 (I do not believe that it was ever signed as such), apparently with the intent to eventually extend it to connect with SR/CR39 in Manatee County.
You are correct in that Toledo Blade was never signed as SR 39 but the original Right-of-Way plans do indicate that it was intended to be a state road. While working for Sarasota County I had access to all their ROW plans and came across everything they had on I-75's construction. I also remember as a kid seeing the stamping on the median jersey barrier between the mainline overpasses (at the edge of the abutments) as being "STATE ROAD 39". Of course it's now stamped "TOLEDO BLADE BLVD".
There were a few rumbles earlier this year about extending Toledo Blade northward from its current end to SR 72, but most people are afraid if it gets built then it will open up the land to be developed. I say it needs to be built purely to have an alternative to get north from the Port Charlotte/North Port area (for the occasional time that I-75 traffic is backed up).
On a side note, some of the other ROW plans I was able to read while at the County were plans for University Parkway along the Sarasota/Manatee County line. Signed along I-75 as County Road 610 (formally signed as CR 750), original plans called the route State Road 610. So it was originally a part of the state system but when the state did its overhaul in the late 70's University Parkway was handed to the county, thus the reason for the CR 610 designation.
Now if I could only figure out why other exits (195, 193, 191, and 182) along I-75 show county designations when the roads themselves are not signed (sans River Road which is still considered CR 777 toward Englewood). My thought is they are internal numbers from Sarasota County but I found nothing to support that theory in any of their databases or other materials).
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2014, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
So...CR1491 has you stumped, huh? Do I win a prize?
No, it was just never a state road.
Seems like it was loosely put together from a few local roads. Why 1491? I don't know - it's really in Florida's 200-300 Belt, and 1xxx routes are usually in Leon County. But I guess the 2000s seem to be mostly applied to the First Coast area.
Still a fun road, though.
For that matter, why use 4dcr (4-digit county road numbers...someone had to coin it) when there's still many left in the three-digit pile?
Quote from: formulanone on December 16, 2014, 07:11:47 PM
Why 1491? I don't know - it's really in Florida's 200-300 Belt, but I guess the 2000s seem to be mostly applied to the First Coast area.
Four-digit routes don't skip 30 like the three-digit routes do (hence north of 10 is 0xxx). See http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/statistics/hwysys/jurisdictionhandbook.pdf (p. 21). I don't know if there are any 3xxx routes, but http://digitool.fcla.edu/webclient/DeliveryManager?pid=54354&custom_att_2=direct shows that a few were assigned in the Panhandle (perhaps as numbers that the counties rejected?).
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2014, 07:31:31 PM
Four-digit routes don't skip 30 like the three-digit routes do (hence north of 10 is 0xxx). See http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/statistics/hwysys/jurisdictionhandbook.pdf (p. 21). I don't know if there are any 3xxx routes, but http://digitool.fcla.edu/webclient/DeliveryManager?pid=54354&custom_att_2=direct shows that a few were assigned in the Panhandle (perhaps as numbers that the counties rejected?).
Thanks for that second link! Might have to make some PDFs out of it when I have the time.
CR 844 intrigues me...that looks to be Copans Road in Broward; it was (and still is) a fairly busy road, but never signed as such. It's naturally not far from SR 844 / NW 14th Street, so that makes sense, as Florida isn't averse to slightly discontinuous routes (as per your first link).
Quote from: flaroads on December 16, 2014, 05:53:44 PM
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:45:23 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on February 26, 2012, 11:20:26 PM
Somewhere I also have a map of a pre World War II proposal to connect the two sections of what is today Citrus County Road 39, with a road along the Withlacoochee River that was never built.
I haven't been to Port Charlotte in years. And you guys (especially NE2), I'm sure, know this...but when they first built I-75 in Charlotte County in the early-1980's, Toledo Blade Boulevard was originally going to be designated as SR39 (I do not believe that it was ever signed as such), apparently with the intent to eventually extend it to connect with SR/CR39 in Manatee County.
You are correct in that Toledo Blade was never signed as SR 39 but the original Right-of-Way plans do indicate that it was intended to be a state road. While working for Sarasota County I had access to all their ROW plans and came across everything they had on I-75's construction. I also remember as a kid seeing the stamping on the median jersey barrier between the mainline overpasses (at the edge of the abutments) as being "STATE ROAD 39". Of course it's now stamped "TOLEDO BLADE BLVD".
There were a few rumbles earlier this year about extending Toledo Blade northward from its current end to SR 72, but most people are afraid if it gets built then it will open up the land to be developed. I say it needs to be built purely to have an alternative to get north from the Port Charlotte/North Port area (for the occasional time that I-75 traffic is backed up).
On a side note, some of the other ROW plans I was able to read while at the County were plans for University Parkway along the Sarasota/Manatee County line. Signed along I-75 as County Road 610 (formally signed as CR 750), original plans called the route State Road 610. So it was originally a part of the state system but when the state did its overhaul in the late 70's University Parkway was handed to the county, thus the reason for the CR 610 designation.
Now if I could only figure out why other exits (195, 193, 191, and 182) along I-75 show county designations when the roads themselves are not signed (sans River Road which is still considered CR 777 toward Englewood). My thought is they are internal numbers from Sarasota County but I found nothing to support that theory in any of their databases or other materials).
Cool stuff. I grew up in Venice. They began construction on I-75 right around the time I graduated from high school in 1978. A friend of mine and I actually walked (crawled) through the trapezoidal steel beams on the SR681 overpass from one side to the other before there was any kind of surface (or forms or anything). I've got some old B&W photos of construction stashed away somewhere. This is going into the way-back machine, but I believe that it was the Border Road southbound overpass that was hit by a piece of equipment which brought down several of the concrete beams that were in place. This would have been in early-1980, I believe.
Prior to I-75's construction, Venice Ave (Venice Farm Rd, as it was known then), River Rd, and Center Rd were bumpy, patched 2-lane roads - especially River between Venice and Center. There was nothing out there then. And River Rd, of course, ended at Venice Farm. You had to really want to go out there. A trip to Snook Haven with my dad was always an adventure.
Quote from: formulanone on December 16, 2014, 07:11:47 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2014, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
So...CR1491 has you stumped, huh? Do I win a prize?
No, it was just never a state road.
Seems like it was loosely put together from a few local roads. Why 1491? I don't know - it's really in Florida's 200-300 Belt, and 1xxx routes are usually in Leon County. But I guess the 2000s seem to be mostly applied to the First Coast area.
Still a fun road, though.
For that matter, why use 4dcr (4-digit county road numbers...someone had to coin it) when there's still many left in the three-digit pile?
Except for some of the roads in the Montverde area, Alachua CR1491 is one of my favorite motorcycling roads in Florida. I'm lucky - I live about four miles from either end of it.
The stretch of CR241 in Union County north of Providence is a lot of fun for the first couple of miles off of SR238.
I'd like to see those photos sometime if you were to find them!
I grew up near Ft. Myers and was fairly young when I-75 was opened up through the area, but I still have vivid memories of the freeway. Don't know if you remember these but I recall big yellow signs along U.S. 41 north near River Road alerting motorists where to turn to get to I-75 north. These were up when I-75 was opened from there northward toward Sarasota and Bradenton. I also seem to remember another set at Tuckers Grade along U.S. 41 in Charlotte County.
Quote from: flaroads on December 19, 2014, 11:13:40 PM
I'd like to see those photos sometime if you were to find them!
I grew up near Ft. Myers and was fairly young when I-75 was opened up through the area, but I still have vivid memories of the freeway. Don't know if you remember these but I recall big yellow signs along U.S. 41 north near River Road alerting motorists where to turn to get to I-75 north. These were up when I-75 was opened from there northward toward Sarasota and Bradenton. I also seem to remember another set at Tuckers Grade along U.S. 41 in Charlotte County.
I'll try to dig them up over the holidays. If you're 40, you were pretty young then. I remember when they opened I-75 from River Rd to 301 in Ellenton. I don't remember the exact date, but it was in May of 1981. I don't recall exactly when the stretch from SR78 (CR78) in NFM to Tucker's Grade opened, but I think that it was just a little bit earlier. I remember driving with a friend across the Caloosahatchee River bridge in January of 1979 not long before that stretch opened. The first time I drove on I-75 south of Tampa legally was in late-'79. That would have been the stretch from SR80 to Daniels (I think).
We moved to Venice in 1968. I distinctly recall when 41 was being 4-laned from Shamrock Blvd to SR775 (now 776) in 1970. My dad and I used to drive through South Venice just to see how they were progressing. The 4-laning from just south of 775 to Warm Mineral Springs didn't get underway until I was in high school.
Someday, I'll tell you the stories of the hell-raising Saturday night parties in North Port. I forget what the name of the road was but you used to turn onto Creighton Blvd at the Holiday Inn billboard. Malls out there now, I'm sure. But people used to bring cars on trailers to drag race. It was wild.
Took this picture today. I'm certain that these are not genuine. The color schemes are reversed - the same as business routes. And they do not appear to be old enough to be genuine SRD signs. But pretty cool nonetheless.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff221%2FSharpestJim%2FRoadSigns41-27122114_zps5e21d929.jpg&hash=f417c4d59d5c66fb0febbd41fdd9581358f53cff)
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 21, 2014, 03:32:04 PM
Took this picture today. I'm certain that these are not genuine. The color schemes are reversed - the same as business routes. And they do not appear to be old enough to be genuine SRD signs. But pretty cool nonetheless.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff221%2FSharpestJim%2FRoadSigns41-27122114_zps5e21d929.jpg&hash=f417c4d59d5c66fb0febbd41fdd9581358f53cff)
You are right, they are not genuine, but are county installs. They are the replacement for this assembly:
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/FL/FL19560411i1.jpg)
We photographed this November 2008. I have an older photo of the assembly (and the one further up) that I took when I lived in Gainesville but I'm not sure where they are at the moment.
And the 27 shield is in fact covering a faded SR 325 Keys shield.
QuoteSomeday, I'll tell you the stories of the hell-raising Saturday night parties in North Port. I forget what the name of the road was but you used to turn onto Creighton Blvd at the Holiday Inn billboard. Malls out there now, I'm sure. But people used to bring cars on trailers to drag race. It was wild.
I know that my cousins (when they were teenagers) would go somewhere in North Port to watch and/or partake in drag racing, so it was probably the same place! I was too young to tag along but I remember them talking about it quite often. And, no, there is no mall out in that area, but it is built up more with houses.
QuoteI remember when they opened I-75 from River Rd to 301 in Ellenton. I don't remember the exact date, but it was in May of 1981. I don't recall exactly when the stretch from SR78 (CR78) in NFM to Tucker's Grade opened, but I think that it was just a little bit earlier. I remember driving with a friend across the Caloosahatchee River bridge in January of 1979 not long before that stretch opened. The first time I drove on I-75 south of Tampa legally was in late-'79. That would have been the stretch from SR80 to Daniels (I think).
I found an article that mentions the stretch linking Lee and Charlotte counties opening up late December 1980, so that fits your memory of it opening a bit sooner than the River Road-U.S. 301 portion.
I also have recollections of when the SR78/I-75 interchange was under construction, especially when traffic had to shift onto a temporary alignment while the crews installed bridge beams for mainline I-75. I know I would have been six at the time, so that would place my memories sometime during 1980.
Quote from: flaroads on December 21, 2014, 03:48:29 PM
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 21, 2014, 03:32:04 PM
Took this picture today. I'm certain that these are not genuine. The color schemes are reversed - the same as business routes. And they do not appear to be old enough to be genuine SRD signs. But pretty cool nonetheless.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff221%2FSharpestJim%2FRoadSigns41-27122114_zps5e21d929.jpg&hash=f417c4d59d5c66fb0febbd41fdd9581358f53cff)
You are right, they are not genuine, but are county installs. They are the replacement for this assembly:
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/FL/FL19560411i1.jpg)
We photographed this November 2008. I have an older photo of the assembly (and the one further up) that I took when I lived in Gainesville but I'm not sure where they are at the moment.
And the 27 shield is in fact covering a faded SR 325 Keys shield.
We moved to Alachua County in 2003. I thought that I remembered original colored 41/27 signs being there. I was in High Springs today to hit the BOA ATM so thought I would drive south a piece to see if they were still there.
Until about two years ago, there was an old Keys shield S-241 (somehow escaped having a "C" stuck over it) sign at CR240 in Union County. I really wanted that sign. And I might have tried to get it, too. But there is a house nearby and I didn't feel like going to jail. I occasionally ride my motorcycle in that area and the old sign was replaced by a crappy new black-on-white "C-241" sign - not even a yellow-on-blue shield. I figured that a county employee probably got himself the S-241 sign.
I looked at those CR 241 signs on StreetView. Man, those look horrible! A few counties in NW Florida use a similar generic style for their county roads as well.
FYI, I found an article specifying that the segment of I-75 between Tucker's Grade and River Road opened on December 1, 1981.
Quote from: flaroads on December 21, 2014, 07:15:35 PM
I looked at those CR 241 signs on StreetView. Man, those look horrible! A few counties in NW Florida use a similar generic style for their county roads as well.
FYI, I found an article specifying that the segment of I-75 between Tucker's Grade and River Road opened on December 1, 1981.
Thanks for that I-75 tidbit. I knew that the temporary end at River Rd didn't last long. Here's something funny...I remember riding my motorcycle in December 1980 from Biscayne Blvd (while they were building I-75 before they cut off Biscayne, you could get right on it) to River Rd. The bridge over Deer Prairie Creek was completed and was dated 1981 (NBI agrees). But I know for a fact that that bridge was completed in 1980.
And I KNOW that I've got a photo of the old S241 sign but I'll be darned if I can find it.
Someone please explain this to me:
Go to historicalaerials.com and type in "Waldo, FL". Go to the 1964 aerial photo and you will see no trace of the US301 overpass over SR24 and the CSX Railroad. Not even a hint of construction. Yet, according to NBI, that bridge was built in 1964. I'm pretty sure that the bridge is dated 1964, also, although it has been a few years since I've driven across it.
Doesn't it seem a little strange. I mean, that overpass is a fairly substantial structure. Even if the aerial photo was taken on New Year's Day 1964, I would think that there would have been some construction taking place there. Did they build that bridge THAT quickly?
Any oldtimers out there from that part of the world that remember when they built it?
Quote from: flaroads on December 21, 2014, 03:48:29 PM
And the 27 shield is in fact covering a faded SR 325 Keys shield.
And a six keys shield at that... only one of those left now
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 24, 2014, 02:31:08 PM
Someone please explain this to me:
Go to historicalaerials.com and type in "Waldo, FL". Go to the 1964 aerial photo and you will see no trace of the US301 overpass over SR24 and the CSX Railroad. Not even a hint of construction. Yet, according to NBI, that bridge was built in 1964. I'm pretty sure that the bridge is dated 1964, also, although it has been a few years since I've driven across it.
Doesn't it seem a little strange. I mean, that overpass is a fairly substantial structure. Even if the aerial photo was taken on New Year's Day 1964, I would think that there would have been some construction taking place there. Did they build that bridge THAT quickly?
Any oldtimers out there from that part of the world that remember when they built it?
The topo maps on that site are notoriously poorly reconciled to the year. The collection of aerial photos may be dated 1964, but a good number of them could have been collected a few years prior and bundled in there. There's no way to go back and check!
Quote from: Alps on December 24, 2014, 08:31:26 PM
The topo maps on that site are notoriously poorly reconciled to the year. The collection of aerial photos may be dated 1964, but a good number of them could have been collected a few years prior and bundled in there. There's no way to go back and check!
Thanks. Good point. I'm sure that that's the case. However, if you go a little to the west to LaCrosse, you can see that the reconstruction of the SR121/SR235 intersection on the south side of town seems to be complete and that was done in 1963, I believe.
BTW: Merry Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa or whatever you celebrate.
Quote from: formulanone on December 16, 2014, 07:11:47 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2014, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: Fred Defender on December 16, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
So...CR1491 has you stumped, huh? Do I win a prize?
No, it was just never a state road.
Seems like it was loosely put together from a few local roads. Why 1491? I don't know - it's really in Florida's 200-300 Belt, and 1xxx routes are usually in Leon County. But I guess the 2000s seem to be mostly applied to the First Coast area.
Still a fun road, though.
For that matter, why use 4dcr (4-digit county road numbers...someone had to coin it) when there's still many left in the three-digit pile?
QuoteI visited with Leslie Mami in Tallahassee [in 2004] and one question I asked her was about the 4-digit routes. She showed me planning maps of them, and said it was one person's job (maybe more?) to renumber all the repetitive routes. A 1976 Legislation was the reason why the 4-digits came up; there were too many numbers (5-6 sections of CR 280, CR 225 for examples), so this was to alleviate confusion.
(from first page of thread)
As for the many left in the 3-di pile, there are maps that fill in some of the gaps. For example, SR 481 and 461 in Walton County...SR routes of 499, 554, 458 in the Orlando area. They were never shown as shields on the maps, but are typed in along with the planned route of where they were to be maintained.
CR 1491 is still north of SR 20. That's why it gets the 1xxx number. Ocala has a mix of 2xxx and 4xxx because of SR 40.
Here's the only one that I was able to find. This was taken, I believe, in April of 1980. This is the SR681 overpass under construction:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff221%2FSharpestJim%2FI-75SR-681Overpass-0480_zpsb4a5cd49.jpg&hash=058ae4a0d94341248bd0e67cea1bca61e06a86ec)
As I said in an earlier post, a buddy of mine and I climbed, walked, and crawled the entire length of the overpass inside of the trapezoidal beams before there was any kind of top on them.
Pretty cool photo (though I know it doesn't show much)! Knowing the length of this overpass, that's a fairly decent distance to have walked across. I always thought it was neat that they used this style versus the other style of beams used on all the other portions (meaning Lee, Collier, and Charlotte counties) being constructed at the time.