Poll
Question:
What go you think of the US restoring diplomatic relations with Cuba?
Option 1: like it
votes: 30
Option 2: don't like it
votes: 1
The article http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-cuba-releases-alan-gross-20141217-story.html#page=1
Thanks, Obama!
Now I want to go there!! Roadmeet?
Aren't we like the only country that was still feuding with them. Apparently Canadians take a fair amount of trips there.
a shame Luciano and Lansky never got around to building that bridge from the Keys ... I could be driving there now.
It's a good step, but I don't think it's the sea change the press keeps claiming it is. For one thing, US tourism there is still banned, and despite the changes, the embargo still stands. Obama claims we should "have a debate". This is a bunch of BS. Obama could end it now if he so chooses. The dirty little secret that the media is not talking about is that the embargo is regulated by the "Trading with the Enemy" act, which originally applied to both Cuba and North Korea (Bush lifted the provisions against North Korea a few years ago). The embargo needs to be renewed every year, and Obama has done so every year. Ending the embargo is as simple as Obama deciding not to renew it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7hZjNO3I-Q
Immigration Freedomway, and let slip the bulldozers of shovel-ready projects!
Cuba's largest new import to the US: old car parts from their factories that have had to build parts to keep their 40s & 50s model cars running since they haven't had any new cars since then.
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
I do think that the embargo will be lifted soon (within the next 5 years). Restoring diplomatic relations is just step 1 in lifting the embargo.
Quote from: formulanone on December 17, 2014, 06:50:36 PM
Immigration Freedomway, and let slip the bulldozers of shovel-ready projects!
Indeed. What better way to build a bridge than to build a literal bridge across the Gulf?
It can be an eastern extension of I-2 to Miami.
Quote from: US 41 on December 17, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
To be fair to Cuba, it was kinda hard to be neutral back then, especially when you just had a revolution to overthrow a US-backed dictator. They were going to make an enemy of the US regardless of what happened (even a capitalist regime would have been a US enemy), and there's the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (especially when you're in the backyard of a superpower that is not afraid to go to war to support its own interests).
Quote from: cjk374 on December 17, 2014, 06:54:08 PM
Cuba's largest new import to the US: old car parts from their factories that have had to build parts to keep their 40s & 50s model cars running since they haven't had any new cars since then.
I've heard that the cars have been modified to accept European parts. old 8-cylinder GM motor goes? replace with 4-cylinder Zsiguli or Fiat. somehow get that to work, because Cuba.
Quote from: mtantillo on December 17, 2014, 06:18:32 PM
Now I want to go there!! Roadmeet?
I want to go there before it changes too much with the influx of American money over time.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2014, 07:27:59 PM
I want to go there before it changes too much with the influx of American money over time.
I don't think that will be the change. Canadian/European/Mexican/etc/etc money has been available for decades; it's the government's policies of strong central management that have prevented the money's effective disbursement to the local population. and it looks like those policies are slowly, but surely, changing. one effect, and not a cause, of that is going to be the influx of American money - but it's only equally as green as the other sources, not in some special way more so.
I'm thinking the country will end up similar to, say, the Dominican Republic. it won't be Las Vegas Part II. the days of Lucky Luciano are long gone.
Why Repub-a-dub-dubs hate this (other than Obama presidenting while black):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fdk-production%2Fimages%2F32056%2Flarge%2FBenghaziCuba.jpg&hash=49855667af3f7386322d71391c084a886d6cd5ae)
To me the amazing thing is that diplomatic negotiations were conducted in secret for a year and the secret never leaked out. If we can trade and do tourism with the People's Republic of China, why then should we embargo Cuba? Remove Castro's excuse that sanctions have left Cuba crippled and over time the Cubans will realize that their version of socialism failed the test economically. Then we'll see regime change or the regime making changes.
Besides, who wouldn't want to see Cuban cigars come here along with some of those Fabulous Fifties machines. The Cubans who owned and kept them up can cash in big time!
Rick
It would have been much more fun to visit when it was illegal to do so.
But that said, I support the change. America already has cozy relations with dictatorships that are far worse.
There's some beautiful Resorts in Cuba now. Over a million Canadians visit each year and it's the #2 destination after Florida for Canadian Snowbirds.
We've been going for years......and here's some shots of those "˜50s era cars from a trip into Havana last spring.....
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12245.msg296185#msg296185
And the Cuba Highway Map:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12408.msg299652#msg299652
Quote from: US 41 on December 17, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
We tried to invade their country at the Bay of Pigs, remember? We try to invade them, of course they turn for help to someone else.
How long do you want to hold a grudge? You know, the British burned Washington (after we burned Toronto). Maybe we should embargo them too.
Quote from: kkt on December 18, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: US 41 on December 17, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
We tried to invade their country at the Bay of Pigs, remember? We try to invade them, of course they turn for help to someone else.
How long do you want to hold a grudge? You know, the British burned Washington (after we burned Toronto). Maybe we should embargo them too.
Not saying I agree with them (heh, we have three Japanese cars, so clearly I don't agree with them), but there are still people who refuse to buy Japanese products because of the Pearl Harbor attack. I worked at a retirement home when I was in high school and one of the residents tried to lecture me about my having a 1982 Honda Accord because you shouldn't buy Japanese "because of what they did to Pearl Harbor." I thought I was pretty even-keeled and respectful when I replied, "Sorry, but that was way before my time and it doesn't hold the same significance to me." She still complained to my supervisor, though nothing ever came of it.
Why is it OK to have diplomatic relations with a dictatorship like Singapore that outlawed bubble gum, but not Cuba?
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2014, 11:47:07 AM
Quote from: kkt on December 18, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: US 41 on December 17, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
We tried to invade their country at the Bay of Pigs, remember? We try to invade them, of course they turn for help to someone else.
How long do you want to hold a grudge? You know, the British burned Washington (after we burned Toronto). Maybe we should embargo them too.
Not saying I agree with them (heh, we have three Japanese cars, so clearly I don't agree with them), but there are still people who refuse to buy Japanese products because of the Pearl Harbor attack. I worked at a retirement home when I was in high school and one of the residents tried to lecture me about my having a 1982 Honda Accord because you shouldn't buy Japanese "because of what they did to Pearl Harbor." I thought I was pretty even-keeled and respectful when I replied, "Sorry, but that was way before my time and it doesn't hold the same significance to me." She still complained to my supervisor, though nothing ever came of it.
She'd have a heart attack if she knew how many visitors to Honolulu were Japanese.
Quote from: bandit957 on December 18, 2014, 12:31:36 PM
Why is it OK to have diplomatic relations with a dictatorship like Singapore that outlawed bubble gum, but not Cuba?
Because durians.
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 03:09:16 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on December 18, 2014, 12:31:36 PM
Why is it OK to have diplomatic relations with a dictatorship like Singapore that outlawed bubble gum, but not Cuba?
Because durians.
I'd think that would be a reason to ban diplomatic relations with Singapore...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2014, 12:55:50 PM
She'd have a heart attack if she knew how many visitors to Honolulu were Japanese.
specifically, to the Pearl Harbor memorial. it seemed to me to be equal mix of white, East Asian, and Pacific Islander folks.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2014, 12:55:50 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2014, 11:47:07 AM
Quote from: kkt on December 18, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: US 41 on December 17, 2014, 06:58:21 PM
I think the embargo should stand. I also think an embargo should be placed on countries like North Korea and Iran. Cuba was going to let Russia put missiles on their country, so I don't think Cuba can ever be fully trusted.
We tried to invade their country at the Bay of Pigs, remember? We try to invade them, of course they turn for help to someone else.
How long do you want to hold a grudge? You know, the British burned Washington (after we burned Toronto). Maybe we should embargo them too.
Not saying I agree with them (heh, we have three Japanese cars, so clearly I don't agree with them), but there are still people who refuse to buy Japanese products because of the Pearl Harbor attack. I worked at a retirement home when I was in high school and one of the residents tried to lecture me about my having a 1982 Honda Accord because you shouldn't buy Japanese "because of what they did to Pearl Harbor." I thought I was pretty even-keeled and respectful when I replied, "Sorry, but that was way before my time and it doesn't hold the same significance to me." She still complained to my supervisor, though nothing ever came of it.
She'd have a heart attack if she knew how many visitors to Honolulu were Japanese.
Heh. I think it's reasonable to say Waikiki is something of a Japanese village. Really weird to see how all the hotel breakfast buffets have the standard American stuff (eggs, sausage, bacon, French toast, etc.) next to a section of things like seaweed and the like for Japanese guests.
We didn't make it to Pearl Harbor the one time I've been to Hawaii, just didn't have time to fit it into the schedule since we didn't stop in Honolulu for long before heading to our friends' house on Kauai for the week. Maybe next time.
like it, because cigars.
Now if we can just drop this stupid embargo crappola. Seriously, the Castros will die soon, and with it all the reason for the embargo in the first place. Well past time to end it, flood the place with dollars and make the Castros look like idiots.
Quote from: bandit957 on December 17, 2014, 11:37:13 PM
It would have been much more fun to visit when it was illegal to do so.
But that said, I support the change. America already has cozy relations with dictatorships that are far worse.
I don't get that at all. Americans weren't banned from traveling to the Soviet Union and China, and they have much more repressive regimes. The U.S. has a way of flexing its muscles against smaller countries that don't have the propensity of fighting back.
I've been divided on the embargo, leaning towards wanting it lifted, for many years now. On one hand, (remembering that prior to 1959, Cuba was #3 on the list of most prosperous countries in the Americas on a per-capita basis) the Castro brothers stole the entire country from its rightful landowners, nationalizing the whole thing, and should not be rewarded for doing so, while on the other hand, the embargo has not worked and no other country does likewise. I also keep in mind that being as open as possible with the people of central and eastern Europe was a big factor in the fall of Communism there in the late 1980s, the culmination of the decade. The people there will see that the Castros blaming all of their ills on the embargo for the lie that it is and start figuring out en-mass that it is the system itself that is fatally flawed.
Then, 'what next' as the Castro Brothers™ fade from the scene?
Besides charting a better political and economic course for the people as a whole, the island will essentially require a 21st Century version of the Marshall Plan. When the country was nationalized, that included every building on the island. Many (or most) have seen little, if any, maintenance in 55 years, this because to buy building materials and to hire someone to do that kind of work was 'counter to the Revolution'. Large areas of the island's cities will have to be rebuilt from the ground up - and rightful ownership issues will have to be resolved.
There is a nascent motorway network on the island that will have to be expanded and mostly completed. The one planned to run the length of the island to connect La Habana with Santiago is about a third open, but nowhere near to the standards of any motorway nearly anywhere else in the World. More 'Marshall Plan' action.
There is a LOT of work ahead once they join the real World.
Mike
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 03:09:16 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on December 18, 2014, 12:31:36 PM
Why is it OK to have diplomatic relations with a dictatorship like Singapore that outlawed bubble gum, but not Cuba?
Because durians.
Durians are cool and funny.
Side note: Yes to Proposition Cuba-visit.
'Bout time.
This just in from a quarter century ago: The Cold War is fucking over.
America always does the right thing... eventually.
Quote from: bandit957 on December 18, 2014, 12:31:36 PM
Why is it OK to have diplomatic relations with a dictatorship like Singapore that outlawed bubble gum, but not Cuba?
They may be SOBs, but they're
our SOBs.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 19, 2014, 12:59:10 AM
'Bout time.
This just in from a quarter century ago: The Cold War is fucking over.
America always does the right thing... eventually.
After exhausting all other alternatives :-D
Quote from: golden eagle on December 18, 2014, 06:41:21 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on December 17, 2014, 11:37:13 PM
It would have been much more fun to visit when it was illegal to do so.
But that said, I support the change. America already has cozy relations with dictatorships that are far worse.
I don't get that at all. Americans weren't banned from traveling to the Soviet Union and China, and they have much more repressive regimes. The U.S. has a way of flexing its muscles against smaller countries that don't have the propensity of fighting back.
Technically, it is not illegal to travel to Cuba. The government tried that and lost in court when they got sued. However, it is illegal to spend money in Cuba without a license from OFAC, and they interpret
that regulation as establishing a rebuttable presumption that if you travel there, you spent money there, so in the government's eyes you need a license to travel to Cuba.
However, they've never actually prosecuted anyone for it because they're afraid they'd lose.
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 11:21:01 PM
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
So you believe theft is a good thing? May I steal your bicycle some time and see how funny it is?
Not so sure if lifting the embargo is the best solution. Lifting the embargo would create a situation in Cuba similar to that of China: a quasi-communist system run by an oppressive single-party government, as Cuba's proximity to the US would make it a very attractive location for outsourcing manufacturing jobs. Lifting sanctions on autocratic regimes in exchange for token reforms hasn't really worked in the past, as is the case with Burma.
Having an embargo hasn't really worked in the past either, though. Mostly because we're the only ones with the embargo. Havana is full of Canadian tourists.
Lifting the embargo may not encourage any reform in the regime, but it would at least mean we could profit by exporting American goods there.
China's definitely profited from importing crap stuff here.
Quote from: Brandon on December 19, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 11:21:01 PM
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
So you believe theft is a good thing? May I steal your bicycle some time and see how funny it is?
hahahahaha
Quote from: Brandon on December 19, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 11:21:01 PM
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
So you believe theft is a good thing? May I steal your bicycle some time and see how funny it is?
Because the wealthy Spaniards that owned most of Cuba's land before the revolution were the rightful landowners.
Quote from: corco on December 19, 2014, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 19, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 11:21:01 PM
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
So you believe theft is a good thing? May I steal your bicycle some time and see how funny it is?
Because the wealthy Spaniards that owned most of Cuba's land before the revolution were the rightful landowners.
Who is the rightful owner of your land?
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 19, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
Quote from: corco on December 19, 2014, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 19, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: NE2 on December 18, 2014, 11:21:01 PM
"rightful landowners" hahahahahaha
So you believe theft is a good thing? May I steal your bicycle some time and see how funny it is?
Because the wealthy Spaniards that owned most of Cuba's land before the revolution were the rightful landowners.
Who is the rightful owner of your land?
I rent
Splitting the buy from an ally stuff into its own thread - stay on topic
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14328.0