AARoads Forum

In November, 1991, this country boy made a trip to the big city of Washington, D.C. to participate in the National Young Leaders Conference.  I was the very 1st to arrive (3 hours before registration) at the national 4-H center in Chevy Chase, MD.  As other students arrived (I was a senior in high school), I was walking toward my dorms and noticed 2 girls were just behind me.

I got to the door first and held it open for them.  They stopped short of the doorway and looked at me funny.  They looked around the door and back at me.  One of them asked, "What are you doing?"  "Iiiiii"m just holding the door open for y'all" was my stammered response.  Their walk through the door quickly turned into a VERY brisk walk.  I just stood there stunned, wondering what planet they came from.   :confused:

Fast forward a few years.  I start working at a brand new wood mill.  The guys that were gonna run the line went to Oregon to see how this new line was gonna operate.  They came back telling stories about how the waitresses and female hotel staff got upset with them when the guys addressed them as "ma'am".

So this begs the question:  Has chivalry totally died, or is on the verge of extinction?   :hmmm:

On door-opening, modern custom (at least in my area) seems to be that you hold the door open briefly for anyone who is coming up behind you, without making a show about how nice or chivalrous you are.  Doesn't matter what gender either party is, though people who most need the help (like the old and frail) get more help.

For waitresses, calling them "ma'am" might be taken as being called old, while "miss" has its own negative connotations (both age and marital status).  Calling them "bitch" doesn't go over well, either.  And sometimes it's a little hard to be sure what gender they are, or are presenting themselves as.  So that is definitely a minefield.

Behind the wheel, though, you can forget about chivalry.

My girlfriend sometimes lets me open the door for her. And sometimes cuts in front of me to deliberately prevent me from doing so. :P

Ultimately the problem is simply one of cultural shift. It used to be that the act of courting was much more open - it was perfectly acceptable to ask a young girl you happened across in public out on a date simply because you saw her and she looked nice, and it was perfectly acceptable to blatantly do all sorts of chivalrous things whether it was towards this end or not.

But then things changed; social norms loosened. Quests to get a date were often replaced with quests to simply get laid and then bugger off. This meant that what was once a harmless gentlemanly compliment of a woman's attractiveness started to be interpreted as the beginning of trying to solicit sex. Women started seeking careers and started seeing value in themselves that wasn't measured by physical attractiveness or suitability to being a housewife. This meant that classic compliments were no longer as appreciated; now there is an expectation to compliment a woman on something other than her body, which is difficult to do when you have not already started talking to someone because at first physical appearance is all you know. Of course today's men suck at giving compliments, so that doesn't help either.

Another big overarching thing is that we have come to see courtesy as a false veneer. In our daily lives we are exposed to people being nice who are either merely following a script, or faking it because they don't want to explicitly insult someone. The result is that we now have a society where it is expected that everyone is going to be dodgy about revealing what they actually want, so if you do something like make an obvious point of holding a door for a young woman that woman is now likely to presume you have an ulterior motive you aren't revealing and get defensive with you rather than being receptive to your chivalry.


So essentially, if chivalry is dead, it's only dead because honesty is also dead. Chivalry doesn't work if it evokes suspicion as a response rather than appreciation.

Thanks, Quixote!

Chivalry rules started drying up when strongly gender-specific clothing went away. A lot of holding the door for women was about giving them the elevator eyes while they walked through the door. No desire for elevator eyes with sweatsuits and flip-flops.

Quote from: oscar on January 15, 2015, 10:10:22 PM
On door-opening, modern custom (at least in my area) seems to be that you hold the door open briefly for anyone who is coming up behind you, without making a show about how nice or chivalrous you are.  Doesn't matter what gender either party is, though people who most need the help (like the old and frail) get more help.

For waitresses, calling them "ma'am" might be taken as being called old, while "miss" has its own negative connotations (both age and marital status).  Calling them "bitch" doesn't go over well, either.  And sometimes it's a little hard to be sure what gender they are, or are presenting themselves as.  So that is definitely a minefield.

Behind the wheel, though, you can forget about chivalry.

Hmm, interesting...because if chivalry's not dead, are we supposed to apply it according to gender, as you've suggested, or sex? In days of yore you always heard about "the fairer sex" rather than "the fairer gender", but then again, that's because at the time gender was a property primarily of nouns, not of people.

And of course, if we're going to be that semantic, chivalry has been dead about as long as has the military aspect of knighthood.

It's also worth noting that many feminists don't like chivalry due to the implications that the guys are only acting that way because of their gender and feel insulted, as if the act of holding the door for them implies that they are unable to open it themselves.

Quote from: Duke87 on January 15, 2015, 11:15:45 PM
Another big overarching thing is that we have come to see courtesy as a false veneer. In our daily lives we are exposed to people being nice who are either merely following a script, or faking it because they don't want to explicitly insult someone. The result is that we now have a society where it is expected that everyone is going to be dodgy about revealing what they actually want, so if you do something like make an obvious point of holding a door for a young woman that woman is now likely to presume you have an ulterior motive you aren't revealing and get defensive with you rather than being receptive to your chivalry.

Yep.  That's a reason why women often date jerks rather than nice guys... because it's assumed that "nice guys" are just acting nice to get sex rather than genuinely being nice.  It doesn't help that this does, in fact, happen frequently, often with the "nice guy" blowing up in anger after not getting the expected "reward".

I try to be nice and polite and respectful (until you give me a reason not to be) to everyone I encounter. It's just the way I was raised.

Very few people know how to effectively fight while mounted on a warhorse anymore, so yes.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2015, 02:04:58 PM
I try to be nice and polite and respectful (until you give me a reason not to be) to everyone I encounter. It's just the way I was raised.

Same here.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2015, 02:04:58 PM
I try to be nice and polite and respectful (until you give me a reason not to be) to everyone I encounter. It's just the way I was raised.

Yes. yes and yes again!

It's almost like you have to be sneaky about it. I probably won't open a door, stand outside, and say "after you, ma'am". But I'll open a door, go in, then if I see someone coming I'll hold the door open and let them thru. So I still was polite; just not 1950s polite.

One thing I have found is that many woman of today have no idea that guys used to hold doors and light cigarettes for women at one time.  Then when a very well distinguished gentleman tries to do these things nowadays, he is often seen as an aggressor and often considered "trying to hit" on the woman he holds the door for or assists her in any other way.

So the answer I would have to say is Yes in the eyes of a modern woman, but no for a proper gentleman of today.

Quote from: roadman65 on January 17, 2015, 12:53:12 PM
One thing I have found is that many woman of today have no idea that guys used to hold doors and light cigarettes for women at one time.  Then when a very well distinguished gentleman tries to do these things nowadays, he is often seen as an aggressor and often considered "trying to hit" on the woman he holds the door for or assists her in any other way.

So the answer I would have to say is Yes in the eyes of a modern woman, but no for a proper gentleman of today.

Um, no, it's more like most men that do this are trying to charm/hit on/etc. women, and women rightly don't trust us because our average is closer to scumbag than we would have them believe.  I think it's dudes that have lost the sense of what chivalry meant, not women. 

Actually to some extent you are right. Some and I mean SOME, do use chivalry to get to score with a woman, but not all.

And as far as guys being jerks are to women, many women look for that characteristic in men today.  Heck I used to be a regular at a tavern here in Kissimmee, FL where this one man came in.  He was very rude in general and always got drunk to the point where his speech gets very impaired. It was like talking to a Grand Central Station Wino who tries to get you to interact with him while he is stoned shit faced out of it.  Yet all the ladies who worked there (it was a knock off Hooters type of bar) would sleep with the dude.  Despite his rude tone to people in general they would all make him out to be the stud while other proper gentlemen who frequent the place are just treated as "a friend" like the "Hey your a nice guy, but I do not date friends etc." type of lines.

Ladies these days like a roll in the hay even more than guys do now. It used to be men only watched porn as if you went into NYC to any porn store at one time you would find only creepy older dudes as well as young adolescents trying to prove their manhoods in the store.  Now you will find more women then men in them, with most stores now selling vibrators and women's lingerie and other female stuff more than smut for men.

I would say its a mix.

Well, apparently we are helping one another down into the shitter.  This could blossom into a whole broad discussion of standards, class, and dignity, but I already used "shitter" to make my point so I will have to recuse myself.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 17, 2015, 02:27:45 PM
Well, apparently we are helping one another down into the shitter.  This could blossom into a whole broad discussion of standards, class, and dignity, but I already used "shitter" to make my point so I will have to recuse myself.

No offense taken.  I think we dwelled on the subject long enough, and yes we did make our points.

Coming from 17 years of living in south Florida, the culture of plastic people and rudeness reached unbelievable heights. 

I now live in middle Georgia, where courtesy is considered natural, addressing a man as 'sir' or a woman as 'ma'am' is routine in discourse, whether familiar or formal.  I work for a long-established liberal arts college and prep school in Milledgeville, Georgia that expects courtesy and respect be paid to all staff, students and the public in every encounter, almost a relic of old Southern charm.

It is very refreshing.

I think it depends on where you're located. In more urban areas/large cities, I'd say yes, it's dead/dying. In the smaller towns and rural areas, it still seems to be alive, albeit not quite to the 1950s levels, as mentioned earlier.

When I was in college, I got a lecture on several occasions about how "I can get my own door." That happened just going between classes, and not necessarily when on a date. Going to school with a mix of people from urban and rural areas made it very hard to try to guess what level of chivalry the girl was going to expect. That made dating in college very stressful. The one thing that was universal was they all expected free drinks. :rolleyes: (And they certainly didn't complain about a free dinner.) When I dated a few women that were from more rural areas, they more/less expected chivalry. They were surprised when I didn't get the door for them.

I'll still hold a door on occasion, but I won't go out of my way to do so. Oddly, I never had an issue using ma'am or miss. Also never have run into a guy that had a problem being called 'sir'.

Quote from: DaBigE on January 17, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
Also never have run into a guy that had a problem being called 'sir'.

I had that problem when I first moved to the south and had elderly black women working for me. They did it out of habit and I never got used to it.

Quote from: xcellntbuy on January 17, 2015, 06:04:38 PM
Coming from 17 years of living in south Florida, the culture of plastic people and rudeness reached unbelievable heights. 

I now live in middle Georgia, where courtesy is considered natural, addressing a man as 'sir' or a woman as 'ma'am' is routine in discourse, whether familiar or formal.  I work for a long-established liberal arts college and prep school in Milledgeville, Georgia that expects courtesy and respect be paid to all staff, students and the public in every encounter, almost a relic of old Southern charm.

It is very refreshing.

Quote from: DaBigE on January 17, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
I think it depends on where you're located. In more urban areas/large cities, I'd say yes, it's dead/dying. In the smaller towns and rural areas, it still seems to be alive, albeit not quite to the 1950s levels, as mentioned earlier.

When I was in college, I got a lecture on several occasions about how "I can get my own door." That happened just going between classes, and not necessarily when on a date. Going to school with a mix of people from urban and rural areas made it very hard to try to guess what level of chivalry the girl was going to expect. That made dating in college very stressful. The one thing that was universal was they all expected free drinks. :rolleyes: (And they certainly didn't complain about a free dinner.) When I dated a few women that were from more rural areas, they more/less expected chivalry. They were surprised when I didn't get the door for them.

I'll still hold a door on occasion, but I won't go out of my way to do so. Oddly, I never had an issue using ma'am or miss. Also never have run into a guy that had a problem being called 'sir'.

So does this mean that chivalry is really just a southern/rural thing? 

What about you ladies out there reading all of this...do you accept chivalry when it is shown to you, or do you think "I can get my own door"? 

Quote from: 6a on January 17, 2015, 07:08:54 PM

Quote from: DaBigE on January 17, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
Also never have run into a guy that had a problem being called 'sir'.

I had that problem when I first moved to the south and had elderly black women working for me. They did it out of habit and I never got used to it.

People outside of customer service rarely called me sir until I hit about 30 and started looking a lot older. Until then I looked like I was about 18. Now I get it all the time.

Sir/ma'am needs to die (along with Mr/Miss/Mrs.) because it is too easy to offend someone by calling them the wrong one. (People call me ma'am fairly often because I tend to wear my hair longer this time of year.) Besides, some people are neither male nor female, so what do you call them?

Quote from: kkt on January 16, 2015, 02:17:04 PM
Very few people know how to effectively fight while mounted on a warhorse anymore, so yes.

Insurance costs would be astronomical, so we just "joust" at targets.

Besides, think how much duct tape it would take to cover a horse ;)