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http://www.pcworld.com/article/2873214/windows-10-will-be-a-free-upgrade-for-windows-7-and-8-users.html

One year to be precise, the first year of release it will be a free for life upgrade, as in once you have it, it will always be free and will not go into a limited use version.

I need to dig up the details - it applies to certain versions/licenses of Windows.

If you snagged a corporate/volume license and that license is no longer valid (ie; the corp didn't renew), you likely won't get the W10 upgrade.

I need to confirm if OEM licenses are included - that would be the largest chunk of the user base.

Quote from: Stratuscaster on January 27, 2015, 12:50:04 AM
I need to dig up the details - it applies to certain versions/licenses of Windows.

If you snagged a corporate/volume license and that license is no longer valid (ie; the corp didn't renew), you likely won't get the W10 upgrade.

I need to confirm if OEM licenses are included - that would be the largest chunk of the user base.

I did look into it, OEM is included, corp is not.

From the Technical Preview that I have installed on a computer at work, I like the improvements over Windows 8, and am looking forward to the upgrade.

Users of windows 7 may have noticed a little icon near the clock, advertizing windows 10. It's free for the first year it is out and is a 3gb download.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/features

I noticed it on my win 8.1 laptop this evening. :eyebrow:

Quote from: SSOWorld on June 01, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
I noticed it on my win 8.1 laptop this evening. :eyebrow:

Same with my 7 Pro Laptop. I already reserved it. what they are doing is spreading out the download, to reduce bandwith requirements. That way on X Day, everything is already saved, and overnight you should get 10 with a reboot.

I am Not Upgrading/Downgrading from Windows 7 Ultimate x64 to Windows 10 Business. I heard from alpha & beta testers that Windows XP and Vista comparability would be removed for the Download and Retail Editions of all versions of 10. I would have to give up my games Sim City 4 deluxe and Locomotion just to name a few. I wish that a free version I can install as a dual boot.   

I just noticed it on my 7 desktop.  Even though history has proven every other version to be OK (or at least to fix the major problems of the previous version), I'll pass.  If it ain't broke....

Let me know if there's still a classic theme so I can continue to avoid having my desktop look like some bad cartoony smartphone screen.

I heard the start menu is coming back.  :D

But I also heard that there are also going to be some drawbacks.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/1/8696949/windows-10-feature-loss

Quote from: mapman1071 on June 01, 2015, 10:40:03 PM
I am Not Upgrading/Downgrading from Windows 7 Ultimate x64 to Windows 10 Business. I heard from alpha & beta testers that Windows XP and Vista comparability would be removed for the Download and Retail Editions of all versions of 10. I would have to give up my games Sim City 4 deluxe and Locomotion just to name a few. I wish that a free version I can install as a dual boot.   

Umm...No, it retains the same compatability as 7 and 8 and 8.1 i have used the x64 version on my desktop, SC4 ran 100%.

Quote from: SSOWorld on June 01, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
I noticed it on my win 8.1 laptop this evening. :eyebrow:

I have Windows 8.1, but on my desktop. I previously had Windows 8.0. When they finally forced it on me back in December, I lost a lot of things I wanted to put into my external hard drive. I don't think I'm going to get it back.   :angry:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-specifications

One key change is that Windows 10 Home will automatically download and install updates - the consumer does not get a choice. For Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise, updates can be deferred.

Another is that Windows Media Player will be removed. For some folks, that's a HUGE downside.

I'm not going anywhere near this until at least SP1 shows up...I'm running Win 7 Ultimate on a computer with a dual-socket motherboard which means nothing less than the Pro edition will work for me.

Some other time methinks.

Quote from: Stratuscaster on June 02, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-specifications

One key change is that Windows 10 Home will automatically download and install updates - the consumer does not get a choice. For Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise, updates can be deferred.

Another is that Windows Media Player will be removed. For some folks, that's a HUGE downside.

Windows media center. Player will still exist.

I plan on getting it, just so I can say good riddance to the UI fustercluck that is Windows 8. 8.1 fixed a few issues from 8, such as returning the start button, but it still didn't fix the problem of having what were essentially two different desktops.

This is kind of a dumb question, but does it delete / reset anything?

Just last month, I changed most of the Windows fonts (Segoe UI) into Roadgeek fonts. To do that, I had to go into the registry.

Quote from: SignGeek101 on June 02, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
This is kind of a dumb question, but does it delete / reset anything?

Just last month, I changed most of the Windows fonts (Segoe UI) into Roadgeek fonts. To do that, I had to go into the registry.

Probably. From what i've read the windows 8/10 upgrade from prior editions reinstalls windows, and just copies over settings.

Quote from: Stratuscaster on June 02, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
One key change is that Windows 10 Home will automatically download and install updates - the consumer does not get a choice. For Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise, updates can be deferred.

This is a major, major dealbreaker. Recently we had tornadic weather in Oklahoma and I needed to access software on my Windows laptop to track the storms. Windows cheerfully informed me that it had an update to install, because obviously it knows better what my computer should be doing at the moment than I do. So I got to stay in the dark about my situation for thirty minutes while it downloaded updates, prepared updates, considered updates, procrastinated about updates, considered preparing updates, prepared to install updates, updated updates, thought about considering preparing to install updates...

After it finally gave me control of the OS I disabled Windows Update.

Quote from: SteveG1988 on June 02, 2015, 05:08:21 AM

Quote from: Stratuscaster on June 02, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-specifications

One key change is that Windows 10 Home will automatically download and install updates - the consumer does not get a choice. For Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise, updates can be deferred.

Another is that Windows Media Player will be removed. For some folks, that's a HUGE downside.

Windows media center. Player will still exist.

That's exactly what I meant to type. Thank you.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2015, 05:13:31 AMAfter it finally gave me control of the OS I disabled Windows Update.

...and the risk of your machine becoming a zombie spambot increased.  :)

(I shouldn't say things like that, since one of my machines, acting as an internal server, has automatic updates disabled as well...although I will go in and manually update from time to time.)

For whatever it's worth, while Win10 is making it harder to avoid accepting updates, it does give you the option of scheduling a reboot at a more convenient time.  In the betas, it will try to guess what that convenient time might be based on information in the Calendar app...but that would presume there's something in the app to go by.

Our copy is reserved, let's see how good or bad it is  :colorful:

I don't think I'll get it until everything is smoothed out. I think there may be some bugs / glitches with it, and it'll take Microsoft time to fix it.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on June 03, 2015, 08:14:48 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2015, 05:13:31 AMAfter it finally gave me control of the OS I disabled Windows Update.

...and the risk of your machine becoming a zombie spambot increased.  :)

I usually mitigate this risk by fixing the root cause of it...i.e., I uninstall Windows. This laptop is my "emergency I-need-something-only-Windows-can-do" machine.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 03, 2015, 05:13:31 AM

Quote from: Stratuscaster on June 02, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
One key change is that Windows 10 Home will automatically download and install updates - the consumer does not get a choice. For Windows 10 Pro and Enterprise, updates can be deferred.

This is a major, major dealbreaker. Recently we had tornadic weather in Oklahoma and I needed to access software on my Windows laptop to track the storms. Windows cheerfully informed me that it had an update to install, because obviously it knows better what my computer should be doing at the moment than I do. So I got to stay in the dark about my situation for thirty minutes while it downloaded updates, prepared updates, considered updates, procrastinated about updates, considered preparing updates, prepared to install updates, updated updates, thought about considering preparing to install updates...

After it finally gave me control of the OS I disabled Windows Update.

Then you need to get W10 Pro.  That will still give you control of when to install updates.  Only the 'Home' edition will automatically update.

Depends on if I will get that version from upgrading my existing Windows 8.1. If I would get the auto-update version, I'll just leave it on 8 so I don't have to deal with Microsoft's update horseshit.

I shouldn't have to be "given" control of when to install updates. It's my hardware, so I get to say when that happens. On Linux the system updates when I type 'yum update' into the console (which updates both the OS and all installed software). If I don't do that, it will periodically remind me there are updates and other than that it leaves me alone. If the OS kernel is updated, the old one is run until next reboot (which again I have full control over), at which point the new kernel is loaded.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 04, 2015, 06:01:22 AM
I shouldn't have to be "given" control of when to install updates.

My guess is:  There will be a registry hack to give you back control over Windows updates.  It will appear on the Internet within the first hour after the W10 upgrade is made available (if it's not there already).

If you don't want the upgrade and/or the nag in your tray, simply uninstall Windows update KB3035583 and don't allow it to install when it appears in the Windows Update app again.

Quote from: SteveG1988 on June 02, 2015, 05:08:21 AM
Windows media center. Player will still exist.

Will it give you the ability to rip CD's? Because I lost that this year.

The Windows 10 free upgrade prompt has now dropped into my system tray (I run Windows 7).  Nothing is said about the upgrade being free for one year from release.  Instead, you are to reserve a free copy, which you can then download and install at your convenience after the July 29 release date.

What I would like to do is download the Windows 10 free upgrade, wait 364 days for it to blow up, and install it only when it fails to do so.

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 20, 2015, 11:54:38 PM
What I would like to do is download the Windows 10 free upgrade, wait 364 days for it to blow up, and install it only when it fails to do so.

This.

I see no reason to upgrade from 8.1 on this computer now or ever. It works, and all of Window's 10's supposedly amazing "features" are totally unimpressive to me.

Quote from: Duke87 on June 26, 2015, 12:35:14 AM
I see no reason to upgrade from 8.1 on this computer now or ever. It works, and all of Window's 10's supposedly amazing "features" are totally unimpressive to me.

That's what I was thinking. At least they're bringing back the start menu. That in itself could make me upgrade, but everything else isn't attractive that much. Then again, people are still running XP and Vista.

I have to say that not being able to control timing and extent of updates is a major drawback.  About once a year Microsoft releases a poorly vetted update that keeps PCs from finishing bootup, and while patches are usually rushed out fast enough once the inevitable outcry gets going, it is still much more convenient to have the bad updates vanish from the list of suggested updates before they are installed in the first place.

I also rely on a registry hack to enable RDP server capability on a copy of 7 Home Premium.  (I considered upgrading to Professional or Ultimate, but when I got my current computer with its preloaded copy of 7, I configured it with British defaults to facilitate the transition from a Windows XP computer I had actually purchased in Britain.  As a result, although I purchased my current computer in the US, the Anytime Upgrade is available to me only at the sterling price, which is about 50% higher than the US price.  At this stage, it is not worth it to me to re-do my defaults in hopes of getting it down to the US price, or to try to hash things out with Microsoft telephone support.)  At this point it sounds like the 10 upgrade will be done as a clean install, with rollback of registry hacks.

Of the three computers in the family that are in active use, one has 7, another has 8.0, and the third has 8.1.  I suspect an upgrade to 10 makes sense for the 8.x machines because they are newer and the Start screen is an ergonomic disaster.  I suspect I will be sticking to 7 on my laptop because it is starting to show its age.

I am so lost in your epic distaste for a product that's not even coming out in a couple of weeks. Disgusting digital pigs. How about you just wait until it comes out on said date, try the god dang program, then criticize it. Don't like it? Fine. That's like criticizing a sport you never participate in or a brand of vehicle you never drive with or a brand of food you never eat. Digital pigs.

Disgusting?  You disgust easily.  These are folks with a lot of experience and/or frustration with this family of products, one which has a long history of problems.

Even if you don't agree, it's a weak reason to insult a whole bunch of people. 

Very rich. I'm well enlightened, thanks, but I think this "experience" you speak of doesn't hold a lot of proof.

They're skipping 9 and going directly to 10 so that they can make 11 before Apple does. Apple has been on 10 for years.

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 02, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
Very rich. I'm well enlightened, thanks, but I think this "experience" you speak of doesn't hold a lot of proof.

Ok, well, people seem to really have offended you, so it seemed worth pointing out that this is not some gaggle of idiots with no background upon which to draw.

Honestly, I think people don't upgrade because they're used to their "old" system, and know that probably anything new will be different, and thus not as good as the old one. It is partially about not knowing the new one, and criticizing it even before the version comes out, and the individual being used to the older version.

It's natural human nature. People will hate it before it comes out, and people will hate it after.

I at least appreciate that Windows tends to have workarounds to adapt old habits to a new OS, something I contrast to Apple's "abandon your old ways and conform" approach. 

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 02, 2015, 06:28:40 PM
I at least appreciate that Windows tends to have workarounds to adapt old habits to a new OS, something I contrast to Apple's "abandon your old ways and conform" approach. 

Hey, opinions are like assholes (I wonder how many times I can use that phrase?) but I don't think Mac has really had any massive UX changes since the OS X public beta 15 years ago. I think most of the changes to OS X have come in the last five years, as Apple has slowly integrated iOS into the Mac. But I don't think it came at any cost -- if anything, the changes were for the better (Launchpad is the best thing since sliced bread).

Here's a comparison of Mac OS X 14 years ago (left) to today (right). I bet you could learn the left and quickly transition to the right.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/MacOSX10-0screenshot.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/0/06/20150610101858!Screen_Shot_2015-06-10_at_11.12.34.png)

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 02, 2015, 06:15:49 PM

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 02, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
Very rich. I'm well enlightened, thanks, but I think this "experience" you speak of doesn't hold a lot of proof.

Ok, well, people seem to really have offended you, so it seemed worth pointing out that this is not some gaggle of idiots with no background upon which to draw.

Yeah? Funny you say that because I do have a background to draw upon; I'm just not letting you see it is all.

Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2015, 06:39:59 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 02, 2015, 06:28:40 PM
I at least appreciate that Windows tends to have workarounds to adapt old habits to a new OS, something I contrast to Apple's "abandon your old ways and conform" approach. 

Hey, opinions are like assholes (I wonder how many times I can use that phrase?) but I don't think Mac has really had any massive UX changes since the OS X public beta 15 years ago. I think most of the changes to OS X have come in the last five years, as Apple has slowly integrated iOS into the Mac. But I don't think it came at any cost -- if anything, the changes were for the better (Launchpad is the best thing since sliced bread).

Here's a comparison of Mac OS X 14 years ago (left) to today (right). I bet you could learn the left and quickly transition to the right.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/MacOSX10-0screenshot.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/0/06/20150610101858!Screen_Shot_2015-06-10_at_11.12.34.png)

In general, I find Apple products to be more rigid in their user experience than their Microsoft/Google/etc. counterparts.  But this is their M.O., of course–a fairly stable environment traded for a more user-customizable one.   My last Mac was ages ago, after which I converted back to Windows in large part for that reason, but I've found the same overarching vision apparent in iOS products, where I've accepted that deal.

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 02, 2015, 07:00:13 PM

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 02, 2015, 06:15:49 PM

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 02, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
Very rich. I'm well enlightened, thanks, but I think this "experience" you speak of doesn't hold a lot of proof.

Ok, well, people seem to really have offended you, so it seemed worth pointing out that this is not some gaggle of idiots with no background upon which to draw.

Yeah? Funny you say that because I do have a background to draw upon; I'm just not letting you see it is all.

I'm sure this is the case for lots of other intelligent folks here, so you are in good company.

Like a bunch of little kids - hating something before trying :sombrero:

Sounds like the typical reaction to a Google or Facebook change... :eyebrow:

:awesomeface:

If we seem suspicious of and unenthusiastic about Windows 10, it is because we have ample precedent to draw on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_Vista

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_XP

One feature that went away between XP and 7, which I am not sure is notated in any of these Wikipedia entries, is the short description of each KB that appeared when you clicked on its entry in the Update dialog.  In the current Update dialog you get a very generic description and a link which you have to click on to pull up the Web page for that KB, which is often even more cryptic.  An example especially relevant to this thread is KB 3035583 (the Windows 10 nagware patch):

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3035583

The lede is "This update enables additional capabilities for Windows Update notifications when new updates are available to the user. It applies to a computer that is running Windows 8.1 or Windows 7 Service Pack 1 (SP1)"--not one word about Windows 10.

More coverage:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2907472/operating-systems/windows-10-upgrade-nagware-patch-kb-3035583-now-marked-important-on-some-win7-pcs.html

While some proportion of the objections to a new version of Windows are inevitably of the pipe-and-slippers variety, not all of them are--the controversy over the disappearing and then reappearing Start menu is a case in point.

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 02, 2015, 08:07:45 PM
Like a bunch of little kids - hating something before trying :sombrero:

Sounds like the typical reaction to a Google or Facebook change... :eyebrow:

:awesomeface:

Or YouTube:

Quote from: SignGeek101 on June 27, 2015, 07:23:10 PM
Anyone remember this?

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcKshB3FtxD0sjbJ2KBO3P43TP8MnZ9om9bT0ixJXFD3vpY1VpG-TzUxQ3
http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/11/14/ytbob4.jpg

Not my screenshots.

I'm not "hating before I try", I have philosophical differences from those the Windows devs appear to have, and therefore am not confident they're going to put out a product I find useful.

I feel like I should have full control over what my OS does when, as the computer is a tool that I am using to achieve some sort of goal. The OS should not get in my way when I try to do something. The less I have to acknowledge the OS, the better; it is supposed to be infrastructure you use without thinking about, like a girder bridge. Instead, Microsoft is trying to build the Golden Gate, but thanks to this feature they've actually built Galloping Gertie.

If I got in my car and it wouldn't start because it had updates to download, that wouldn't be acceptable, would it? Dunno about you, but it'd probably make me late to work and I'd be pissed. Same with a computer. I am booting the computer up because I want to do X, Y, Z action and if the OS thinks it's okay to keep me from doing X, Y, Z action because it knows better what the hardware should be doing with its time, then, well, the OS has got to go.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2015, 05:14:41 AM
....

If I got in my car and it wouldn't start because it had updates to download, that wouldn't be acceptable, would it? Dunno about you, but it'd probably make me late to work and I'd be pissed. Same with a computer. I am booting the computer up because I want to do X, Y, Z action and if the OS thinks it's okay to keep me from doing X, Y, Z action because it knows better what the hardware should be doing with its time, then, well, the OS has got to go.

This comment reminds me of what caused me to dump AOL back in the dial-up days: Its insistence on downloading updates when you went to sign off, whether you had time for it right then or not. If (as I did at the time) you only had one phone line and needed to hang up the modem to make a call, you were forced to pull the cord from your modem to force a disconnect because you had no option to postpone the software update(s) until later. I remember writing in to tech support to complain and getting back a reply that said, more or less (not in these words), "We know better than you when you need updates." So I cancelled the service (thankfully, that was right around the time DSL became available where I lived).

It is not anyone's place other than mine to decide what gets downloaded onto my PC at any given moment, and that includes operating system updates. I don't let anything update automatically. I will allow the software to check automatically for updates and then advise me they're available. I find that useful because otherwise I may not learn about an update. But I won't let the software download the update until I give it the OK to do so. This was more of a concern in the days when some updates could force a reboot upon completion. That seems to be less of a nuisance nowadays, thankfully, but I still don't allow updates if I'm working on something urgent.

Microsoft has an entrenched culture of taking away control from the end users "for their own good," which was evident in the controversy many years ago about changes in how a Microsoft email client (can't remember whether it was Outlook or Outlook Express) would handle attachments in a new version.  Since smartphones are hot right now, and nearly all carriers lock them down so that users cannot prevent updates (and rooting or jailbreaking is often a major project even when pay third-party tools are not required), Microsoft is probably counting on the market being more ready to tolerate withdrawal of control over Windows updates.  That may be true for the market at large but it certainly is not for me.

I have automatic downloading but not installation of updates enabled for Windows 7 on my laptop because the monthly "Malicious Software Removal Tool" update bogs the system down for hours while it tries to scan 2.25 TB across four partitions on three physical drives.  If I want a smooth and clean update, I have to uncheck MSRT and hide it.

It's kind of unfair to single out Microsoft for this, since it appears to be industry-wide; Google and Apple also seem to be on the "let's take away options to 'simplify' things" trend. Personally, I can't stand it, and therefore use open-source software whenever possible.

Although even then you lose options sometimes. The latest KDE has lost the ability to specify a date and time format separate from the system locale. This means it's impossible to, e.g., specify ISO YYYY-MM-DD dates while also using English-language days-of-the-week. However, this was not intended as a feature; instead, it is a regression from the KDE developers deciding to stop using some of their custom libraries and instead rely on the Qt toolkit's facilities for the same functions. Unfortunately, the Qt versions aren't as customizable. There is enough complaining about it that I'm confident the KDE developers are going to address it at some point.

There is also the consideration that taking away options is sometimes part of building behavioral norms that apply across multiple packages and save time and effort by reducing learning curves.  For this reason I don't automatically object to Microsoft or any other large software vendor doing it, but I also don't want to be disproportionately inconvenienced by any individual instance of it.  Updates should be transparent and painless; having your computer taken over once a month by a MSRT scan which should be completely unnecessary if you are running antivirus software is cumulatively almost as bad as a virus attack.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
It's kind of unfair to single out Microsoft for this, since it appears to be industry-wide; Google and Apple also seem to be on the "let's take away options to 'simplify' things" trend. Personally, I can't stand it, and therefore use open-source software whenever possible.

Although even then you lose options sometimes. The latest KDE has lost the ability to specify a date and time format separate from the system locale. This means it's impossible to, e.g., specify ISO YYYY-MM-DD dates while also using English-language days-of-the-week. However, this was not intended as a feature; instead, it is a regression from the KDE developers deciding to stop using some of their custom libraries and instead rely on the Qt toolkit's facilities for the same functions. Unfortunately, the Qt versions aren't as customizable. There is enough complaining about it that I'm confident the KDE developers are going to address it at some point.

Gnome 3 is the poster child of this trend invading the open source world.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
It's kind of unfair to single out Microsoft for this, since it appears to be industry-wide; Google and Apple also seem to be on the "let's take away options to 'simplify' things" trend. Personally, I can't stand it, and therefore use open-source software whenever possible.

Case in point (for Apple): Final Cut Pro. Apple boasted Final Cut Pro X to be the best thing since internet porn, but it's hardly a worthy successor to Final Cut Pro 7. I'd be surprised if there were actually any professionals (i.e. those who work for movie studios, and get paid to edit movies) who use FCP X. Apples to apples (no pun intended), it pales in comparison to earlier versions.

even apps are taking to genericizing their update reasons.  Facbook has a 9 sentence summary of the update that basically boils down to "you get a new update every two weeks, what it contains is not your concern."

The reason for the forced updates for W10 home and most of Win10 pro is Microsoft is making this "Windows 365" (see Office 365 - which is a subscription service where you get the program and added services (software as a service).  The prime exception of this and probably the political reason for not calling it such is that you don't "subscribe" to Win10. 

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2015, 03:51:35 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
It's kind of unfair to single out Microsoft for this, since it appears to be industry-wide; Google and Apple also seem to be on the "let's take away options to 'simplify' things" trend. Personally, I can't stand it, and therefore use open-source software whenever possible.

Although even then you lose options sometimes. The latest KDE has lost the ability to specify a date and time format separate from the system locale. This means it's impossible to, e.g., specify ISO YYYY-MM-DD dates while also using English-language days-of-the-week. However, this was not intended as a feature; instead, it is a regression from the KDE developers deciding to stop using some of their custom libraries and instead rely on the Qt toolkit's facilities for the same functions. Unfortunately, the Qt versions aren't as customizable. There is enough complaining about it that I'm confident the KDE developers are going to address it at some point.

Gnome 3 is the poster child of this trend invading the open source world.

Which is why Linux creator Linus Torvalds was quoted describing Gnome 3 as displaying "head up the arse behavior".

Oh well, it helps KDE out, which I've always liked :)

Microsoft has a hard time understanding that Windows is not the "end", but the "means to an end".  I don't boot up my PC looking forward to using Windows - I'm there to use the various programs running on it.  Therefore, I want it as simple as possible - to be the operating system which it is and just keep things running smoothly.  I use "Classic Theme" whenever possible (thankfully more or less still available in Win 7) and avoid any of the fancy widgets, corny graphics or other smartphone-like junk Windows has been adding for years now.  Just let me get to my stuff quickly and efficiently and be on with it.  However, I want the customization and options I've always had to be available when I need it - such as being able to dictate when I think it's time to download updates as mentioned previously.  I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

Before I'm rated as curmudgeon #1, I will say that I've been using Windows since 3.1 (and DOS before it), and 95% of the time over the years it's done its job just fine.  I just know to avoid every other version now....

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 05, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
Microsoft has a hard time understanding that Windows is not the "end", but the "means to an end".  I don't boot up my PC looking forward to using Windows - I'm there to use the various programs running on it.  Therefore, I want it as simple as possible - to be the operating system which it is and just keep things running smoothly.  I use "Classic Theme" whenever possible (thankfully more or less still available in Win 7) and avoid any of the fancy widgets, corny graphics or other smartphone-like junk Windows has been adding for years now.  Just let me get to my stuff quickly and efficiently and be on with it.  However, I want the customization and options I've always had to be available when I need it - such as being able to dictate when I think it's time to download updates as mentioned previously.  I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

I completely agree with this!  Windows has so much sheer junk in it.  I want my computer's cycles doing things I need or want, not animations that are too crude to use in Saturday morning cartoons, or spyware, or dysfunctionality that is motivated by preventing competing software from working rather than making Microsoft's work better.

Quote
Before I'm rated as curmudgeon #1, I will say that I've been using Windows since 3.1 (and DOS before it), and 95% of the time over the years it's done its job just fine.  I just know to avoid every other version now....

95%?  Wow.  I'd rate it in the 50% range, including all the crashes, badly timed mandatory upgrades, multiple forced reboots.  I really want TOPS-20 back; while they did crash it was mostly because 1970s hardware that wasn't all that reliable, the OS was fine.

Quote from: kkt on July 05, 2015, 03:26:15 PM

Quote
Before I'm rated as curmudgeon #1, I will say that I've been using Windows since 3.1 (and DOS before it), and 95% of the time over the years it's done its job just fine.  I just know to avoid every other version now....

95%?  Wow.  I'd rate it in the 50% range, including all the crashes, badly timed mandatory upgrades, multiple forced reboots.  I really want TOPS-20 back; while they did crash it was mostly because 1970s hardware that wasn't all that reliable, the OS was fine.

I've had my share of crashes and other problems over the years, but for the most part it's been fine.  I'm not going to blame Microsoft for the times when I ran a much older version (OS and/or software) or used far outdated hardware.  I've stuck with the 'good' versions - 98, XP and 7 and avoided the bad ones - timing hardware upgrades accordingly.  Many problems are software - right now I'm stuck with an Ipod Classic that won't sync anymore thanks to some problem between Norton and ITunes.

Personally, I prefer Aero for using Windows... and MS removed that in Windows 8 in favor of the ugly blocky theme they have now, even in the desktop. :(

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 05, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

MS doesn't consider Word to be "a basic word processing program" (and honestly, if that's all you need, the built-in Wordpad will do it for you).  It has quite a few advanced features, but it got to the point where people couldn't find them any more; hence the Ribbon.

Quote from: vdeane on July 06, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
Personally, I prefer Aero for using Windows... and MS removed that in Windows 8 in favor of the ugly blocky theme they have now, even in the desktop. :(

I take the performance enhancements over fashion any day. Thankfully they kept the snapping. I cannot use XP or any OS that doesn't have that feature now.

Quote from: vdeane on July 06, 2015, 04:22:44 PM

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 05, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

MS doesn't consider Word to be "a basic word processing program" (and honestly, if that's all you need, the built-in Wordpad will do it for you).  It has quite a few advanced features, but it got to the point where people couldn't find them any more; hence the Ribbon.

It's still a word processing program, even if they've added a lot of bells and whistles over the years.  Because there's not really that much one could do to improve upon such a thing, they just constantly screw around with the interface - adding the ribbon, changing the themes, etc.  Just generally moving everything around to look like they made 'improvements'.  The vast majority of people use it more or less the same way they always have, but just have to struggle with each update to figure out where Microsoft hid all the options and find the least obnoxious new color theme.  Same goes for the rest of the Office Suite.

Quote from: vdeane on July 06, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
Personally, I prefer Aero for using Windows... and MS removed that in Windows 8 in favor of the ugly blocky theme they have now, even in the desktop. :(

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 05, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

MS doesn't consider Word to be "a basic word processing program" (and honestly, if that's all you need, the built-in Wordpad will do it for you).  It has quite a few advanced features, but it got to the point where people couldn't find them any more; hence the Ribbon.

Nothing angered me more than that non-customizable ribbon when it was introduced.

Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2015, 12:20:14 AM

Quote from: vdeane on July 06, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
Personally, I prefer Aero for using Windows... and MS removed that in Windows 8 in favor of the ugly blocky theme they have now, even in the desktop. :(

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 05, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
I'll save my rant about Word for another day (why do we need to constantly tweak and infuriatingly modify a basic word processing program?)

MS doesn't consider Word to be "a basic word processing program" (and honestly, if that's all you need, the built-in Wordpad will do it for you).  It has quite a few advanced features, but it got to the point where people couldn't find them any more; hence the Ribbon.

Nothing angered me more than that non-customizable ribbon when it was introduced.

Same here.  I now have a bunch of buttons up on the top in the 'Quick Access Toolbar' to make up for it to some extent.  I expect Microsoft to get rid of this in the next version.

The ribbon is standard across all Office apps. If you didn't like it in Word, you'll HATE it in Excel and Access (and I use Access quite a bit, I can't stand that damn ribbon!)

I've used pretty much every version of windows since 3.1, also, including Vista when it was on my wife's old computer (yuck) and 8.1 on her new one (puke). XP and 7 have been my favorites, too.

What I have done, though is to avoid every version of Microsoft's "Office" type suite of products since they dumped Microsoft Works back in the day. I now use Open Office, and have been since the mid 2000's. 

I like the way I can choose the extension that I save a particular file as, and that I can, if I choose, save it as an Microsoft type file if I need to bring it to work to use there.

I find the function button placement and the fact that you can move them around much better in Open Office spreadsheets than Excel, for example.

I mainly use Chrome as my browser, though I keep IE updated in case I am forced to use it for some reason.

I just bought a new laptop last month, and I was able to avoid having to get 8.1, by specifying 7 Professional. I am subscribed for the update to
Windows 10, and I'll probably wait to deploy it until I see what others are saying about bugs and whatnot. If I am not mistaken, having Windows 7 Professional means I will be getting Windows 10 Professional by default and that should mean I will still have the ability to choose when to update vs having it forced on me. If not then I won't deploy it.

Quote from: slorydn1 on July 08, 2015, 12:28:04 PM
I've used pretty much every version of windows since 3.1, also, including Vista when it was on my wife's old computer (yuck) and 8.1 on her new one (puke). XP and 7 have been my favorites, too.

What I have done, though is to avoid every version of Microsoft's "Office" type suite of products since they dumped Microsoft Works back in the day. I now use Open Office, and have been since the mid 2000's. 

I like the way I can choose the extension that I save a particular file as, and that I can, if I choose, save it as an Microsoft type file if I need to bring it to work to use there.

I find the function button placement and the fact that you can move them around much better in Open Office spreadsheets than Excel, for example.

I mainly use Chrome as my browser, though I keep IE updated in case I am forced to use it for some reason.

I just bought a new laptop last month, and I was able to avoid having to get 8.1, by specifying 7 Professional. I am subscribed for the update to
Windows 10, and I'll probably wait to deploy it until I see what others are saying about bugs and whatnot. If I am not mistaken, having Windows 7 Professional means I will be getting Windows 10 Professional by default and that should mean I will still have the ability to choose when to update vs having it forced on me. If not then I won't deploy it.

You will have the choice. Pro=Pro

Quote from: slorydn1 on July 08, 2015, 12:28:04 PM
I've used pretty much every version of windows since 3.1, also, including Vista when it was on my wife's old computer (yuck) and 8.1 on her new one (puke). XP and 7 have been my favorites, too.

What I have done, though is to avoid every version of Microsoft's "Office" type suite of products since they dumped Microsoft Works back in the day. I now use Open Office, and have been since the mid 2000's. 

I like the way I can choose the extension that I save a particular file as, and that I can, if I choose, save it as an Microsoft type file if I need to bring it to work to use there.

I find the function button placement and the fact that you can move them around much better in Open Office spreadsheets than Excel, for example.

I tried Open Office.  I mean, I tried and gave it a real extra chance because it's open source, which I would like to support.  But it just wasn't in the same league of functionality as MS Office.  It was a while ago, but I remember having to jump through a lot of hoops where Office had more seamless tools.  It seemed to be geared toward people less concerned with simplicity of feel and use.  It held me up on a big project and I had to abandon it.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 08, 2015, 07:50:57 PMI tried Open Office.  I mean, I tried and gave it a real extra chance because it's open source, which I would like to support.  But it just wasn't in the same league of functionality as MS Office.  It was a while ago, but I remember having to jump through a lot of hoops where Office had more seamless tools.  It seemed to be geared toward people less concerned with simplicity of feel and use.  It held me up on a big project and I had to abandon it.

I tried standardizing on Open Office for most tasks when I discovered my copy of Microsoft Office 2000 Professional wouldn't install on my then new Windows 7 laptop.  I eventually had to give up on it because its Word conversion filter is too buggy to support highly structured Word documents, and it also lacked some features that are baked into Word, such as the ability to center text vertically on a page.  (Open Office's workaround, which is pretty worthless, is to define a one-cell table that covers the entire page, and specify that the contents of the cell are vertically centered.)

I now use LaTeX, though it has its own issues, including a general lack of portability of LaTeX documents which is tied to the user's ability to customize his or her LaTeX distribution by installing additional packages and writing his or her own class files.  I like the fact that input documents are plain text instead of in a proprietary format and markup is explicit.  I figure I can sidestep most of the portability issues by sticking with the more popular packages and the built-in classes.  Now that pdflatex is available, raster image handling is ten times better than Word's; I had issues with Word inflating about 5 MB worth of heavily postprocessed images to more than 120 MB when preparing a document for PDF distillation.

In the economics literature, the triumph of the QWERTY keyboard layout over allegedly better alternatives like the Dvorak keyboard is used to illustrate path dependence and how inferior technologies can block the adoption of better alternatives if switching costs are high enough.  But QWERTY is a bad example to use for the latter (though it still works for path dependence) because none of the allegedly superior alternatives stand up to close study.  On the other hand, the Word versus WordPerfect battle is an excellent illustration of how an inferior technology (no markup) can win out over a better one (explicit markup baked in).

It should be noted that OpenOffice was forked a couple of years back, and the forked version, LibreOffice, is now the preferred one. Don't know if that changes anything.

I have no option; I have to use LibreOffice. It definitely does the job all right. I do miss having a Microsoft Access equivalent, though.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2015, 07:50:35 PMIt should be noted that OpenOffice was forked a couple of years back, and the forked version, LibreOffice, is now the preferred one. Don't know if that changes anything.

This is true, and I should correct myself:  the comments I made above re. Open Office actually apply to LibreOffice, which is the branch of the fork I have actually tried.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2015, 07:50:35 PMI have no option; I have to use LibreOffice. It definitely does the job all right. I do miss having a Microsoft Access equivalent, though.

If LibreOffice is an employer's office standard you must adhere to, that is one thing, but on a Linux system LaTeX would be very straightforward.

Isn't it still the case that Access isn't included in the bargain-basement levels of Microsoft Office?

I believe that is correct in regards to Access.

Quote from: Stratuscaster on July 09, 2015, 10:44:34 PM
I believe that is correct in regards to Access.

You have to get the Professional version of Office to get Access.

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 09, 2015, 08:22:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2015, 07:50:35 PMIt should be noted that OpenOffice was forked a couple of years back, and the forked version, LibreOffice, is now the preferred one. Don't know if that changes anything.

This is true, and I should correct myself:  the comments I made above re. Open Office actually apply to LibreOffice, which is the branch of the fork I have actually tried.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2015, 07:50:35 PMI have no option; I have to use LibreOffice. It definitely does the job all right. I do miss having a Microsoft Access equivalent, though.

If LibreOffice is an employer's office standard you must adhere to, that is one thing, but on a Linux system LaTeX would be very straightforward.

Isn't it still the case that Access isn't included in the bargain-basement levels of Microsoft Office?

LaTeX is an option, and I've played with it superficially, but learning yet another markup language isn't really appealing, and the overhead in setting up a simple document just isn't justified to me.  Besides, the LibreOffice application I use most is the spreadsheets.

Quote from: DeaconG on July 12, 2015, 02:44:24 PM

Quote from: Stratuscaster on July 09, 2015, 10:44:34 PM
I believe that is correct in regards to Access.

You have to get the Professional version of Office to get Access.

Access is also included with the subscription-based Office 365 Home and Personal editions.

I have reserved my copy of Windows 10 Home on both of my computers that run Windows 8.1. I agree with some of the other users about waiting to update so I can see initial feedback and some bugs ironed out. I am excited about the new start menu instead of a slow 3rd party one or the crap they put in 8.1 as a "Start Menu".

http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/28/9055065/windows-10-pre-download-windows-7-windows-8-pcs

It's started.

How to skip the wait and upgrade to Win 10 straightaway:

http://lifehacker.com/how-to-skip-the-line-and-upgrade-to-windows-10-now-1720854489

I upgraded my Surface 3 this morning. It was relatively painless, however I'll have to retrain my brain away from the split-desktop metaphor 8.1 had me in.

Quote from: Thing 342 on July 29, 2015, 01:34:14 PM
I upgraded my Surface 3 this morning. It was relatively painless, however I'll have to retrain my brain away from the split-desktop metaphor 8.1 had me in.

Thankfully I was able to isolate each of the kinds by immediately installing all the apps... I don't miss the apps at all. I hated them immediately after I installed Win 8.

But Win10 is great. I installed the Preview about two weeks ago and have nothing but good to say. Very much Win 7 to Vista.

I am currently downloading Windows 10 onto a DVD. I hope it is good.

I've got my DVD burned and ready to go! If all goes well this will be the last thing I ever post from Windows 7...

Quote from: Roadsguy on July 29, 2015, 04:12:25 PM
I've got my DVD burned and ready to go! If all goes well this will be the last thing I ever post from Windows 7...

I've tried getting my DVD to burn it and it did burn an ISO file. I could not get it to work and now I am downloading it directly on my PC. You had better luck then me.

Let me know how it all works out, PC/laptop users.

I fully expect that mine should be downloaded and waiting for me when I get home in the morning, but I am still not going to deploy it until y'all give it the thumbs up.

If they force it on me, it had better not take away any more of what I lost from Windows 8.1. I need the ability to rip CD's and save video images from Netflix and Amazon.com returned to me!!

If you're a Windows 8 or 8.1 user, please let us know how it compares. I don't plan to upgrade my Windows 7 desktop, but my wife's laptop runs 8 or 8.1, I forget which, and she doesn't like it even with the Classic Shell add-on.

Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on July 29, 2015, 05:02:41 PM

Quote from: Roadsguy on July 29, 2015, 04:12:25 PM
I've got my DVD burned and ready to go! If all goes well this will be the last thing I ever post from Windows 7...

I've tried getting my DVD to burn it and it did burn an ISO file. I could not get it to work and now I am downloading it directly on my PC. You had better luck then me.

Well, I can only do the in-place upgrade from within Windows 7 by running the disc. Booting directly to the disc, though, only seems to work for a clean install, which I didn't do because I don't think I'd be able to activate it then.

I do have 10 set up now, and it's working pretty well. Can't wait for Glass8 to update though.

Quote from: Roadsguy on July 30, 2015, 10:37:31 AM

Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on July 29, 2015, 05:02:41 PM

Quote from: Roadsguy on July 29, 2015, 04:12:25 PM
I've got my DVD burned and ready to go! If all goes well this will be the last thing I ever post from Windows 7...

I've tried getting my DVD to burn it and it did burn an ISO file. I could not get it to work and now I am downloading it directly on my PC. You had better luck then me.

Well, I can only do the in-place upgrade from within Windows 7 by running the disc. Booting directly to the disc, though, only seems to work for a clean install, which I didn't do because I don't think I'd be able to activate it then.

I do have 10 set up now, and it's working pretty well. Can't wait for Glass8 to update though.

Once you activate it with the upgrade, you could do a clean install with the same media...or so I have read.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2015, 09:21:37 AM
If you're a Windows 8 or 8.1 user, please let us know how it compares. I don't plan to upgrade my Windows 7 desktop, but my wife's laptop runs 8 or 8.1, I forget which, and she doesn't like it even with the Classic Shell add-on.

I upgraded a Surface 3 and a mid-range Dell desktop from 8.1 to 10. A definite improvement over 8.x, IMO. 10 fixes a major annoyance I had with 8.1 in that now desktop apps and touch-friendly (aka Modern) apps now live in the same space, instead of being hidden in an obtuse smartphone-style app switcher, with the desktop being considered a separate "app".

However, if your wife doesn't like 8.x even with Classic Shell, I suspect that she won't like 10 simply because the Start menu in 10 doesn't work in exactly the same manner as it did in 7.

I didn't plan on upgrading to 10. However, my PC recently became corrupted by a failed Windows Update that made my OS unstable, so I jumped ship from 7. There were a lot of problems with 7 and Windows Update. I just spent the past 7 hours installing 7 again to fix my update issues (because 10 wouldn't install), then another 4-5 installing all of the updates to get 10, and now I am finally able to use my computer again without exploding. So far I'm enjoying Windows 10.

My laptop feels faster with it.

Ran into my first hiccup with Win10 today. While browsing Google Photos in Chrome, my Surface 3 decided to lock up and become completely unresponsive, requiring me to hard reset it.

Microsoft's Edge browser is actually really nice. It's smooth and very responsive and fast which I like. LastPass doesn't work with it though yet, so I have to switch to Internet Explorer again so I don't have to remember all my passwords.

The Creative Cloud programs (from Adobe) experience some graphical issues, such as offset shadows and missing separator lines (for example, the black bars separating each individual swatch in Illustrator and Photoshop are missing).

Not a fan of the reflective shiny "Windows" logo behind the password-entry screen. Should be a solid color like before.

Quote from: Zeffy on August 01, 2015, 10:59:28 PM
Microsoft's Edge browser is actually really nice. It's smooth and very responsive and fast which I like. LastPass doesn't work with it though yet, so I have to switch to Internet Explorer again so I don't have to remember all my passwords.

I find Edge looks really nice compared to other browsers -- obviously Microsoft did a good job with the styling, making it fit with the rest of the OS, and it seems fast enough. Still not a fan of the font smoothing evident in Microsoft browsers, however.

So far, I have little reason to use the Microsoft Edge browser. It has trouble on Microsoft's own websites - forcing me back to Internet Explorer or (usually) back to Firefox.

Surprisingly, the in-place upgrades are working very well on the devices I've deployed it to. Granted, I started with healthy systems. An upraised middle finger to Microsoft for changing my browser preferences.

I can certainly do without the Wi-Fi Sense feature that shares all of your wi-fi passwords with your contacts (albeit obscured by Microsoft). That's the kind of thing that's completely unacceptable, particularly since it's an opt-out system. I shut it off on everything I've deployed it to - and I'm really glad I haven't linked my Facebook and Microsoft accounts together. Not going to, either. Nada!

Quote from: JREwing78 on August 02, 2015, 11:02:11 PM
An upraised middle finger to Microsoft for changing my browser preferences.

During the setup process, Microsoft asks you to change your default programs to their new programs, and you have to "OK" it. Presuming you didn't deselect the option to make Edge the default browser, you can't really be angry at them...after all, you did "OK" it.

I finally installed Windows 10 on my computer. It is really good so far.

Not that I'm in a hurry, but my computer still hasn't downloaded it yet. Maybe its trying to tell me something :sombrero:

Did anyone check out Microsoft's Maps app in Windows 10? I like it quite a bit, and even though there is no street view, it is insanely smooth and it has really nice 3D city views!

AND it has a 3D city for Trenton! Not even Google has that! Although, I am shocked that some towns like Toms River and Edison made it in this list, but Hartford and New Haven Connecticut didn't.

Quote from: Zeffy on August 03, 2015, 10:59:57 PM
Did anyone check out Microsoft's Maps app in Windows 10? I like it quite a bit, and even though there is no street view, it is insanely smooth and it has really nice 3D city views!

AND it has a 3D city for Trenton! Not even Google has that! Although, I am shocked that some towns like Toms River and Edison made it in this list, but Hartford and New Haven Connecticut didn't.

Even my town has an approximated 3d version, try typing in any zip code in NJ, select the 3d view.

Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 03, 2015, 11:58:57 PM

Quote from: Zeffy on August 03, 2015, 10:59:57 PM
Did anyone check out Microsoft's Maps app in Windows 10? I like it quite a bit, and even though there is no street view, it is insanely smooth and it has really nice 3D city views!

AND it has a 3D city for Trenton! Not even Google has that! Although, I am shocked that some towns like Toms River and Edison made it in this list, but Hartford and New Haven Connecticut didn't.

Even my town has an approximated 3d version, try typing in any zip code in NJ, select the 3d view.

Really? The Microsoft Maps app installed by default is very slow. Does have Streetside, and thinks I like in Convington. I still prefer Google Maps Canada to this.

Quote from: slorydn1 on August 03, 2015, 07:13:11 PM
Not that I'm in a hurry, but my computer still hasn't downloaded it yet. Maybe its trying to tell me something :sombrero:

Neither has mine, thankfully. I'm not taking too many chances, though.

Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 05, 2015, 12:50:00 AM

Quote from: slorydn1 on August 03, 2015, 07:13:11 PM
Not that I'm in a hurry, but my computer still hasn't downloaded it yet. Maybe its trying to tell me something :sombrero:

Neither has mine, thankfully. I'm not taking too many chances, though.

Don't be too sceptical. It's only a 3GB download. There's only so many things that can be stuffed into 3 gigs. So far, it seems like a polished version of Windows 8.

Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2015, 01:20:12 AM
Don't be too sceptical. It's only a 3GB download. There's only so many things that can be stuffed into 3 gigs. So far, it seems like a polished version of Windows 8.

The Morris Worm brought the internet to its knees in only 3000 lines or so of C code, including three different attack vectors...

Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2015, 01:49:42 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2015, 01:20:12 AM
Don't be too sceptical. It's only a 3GB download. There's only so many things that can be stuffed into 3 gigs. So far, it seems like a polished version of Windows 8.

The Morris Worm brought the internet to its knees in only 3000 lines or so of C code, including three different attack vectors...

True, true. My point being, it's not like Windows 10 was built from the ground up. It's essentially the same as Windows 8 with a different UX...it looks a little different, but the code is very similar.

It seems in the Microsoft Edge browser on Windows 10 this forum is kind of broken. The special features like emoticons and formatting don't work unless entered manually and some avatars are broke. (Ex. 1995hoo's GIF avatar just shows an X in a box) Can anyone give any insight in to this?

"Only" 3GB?  As recently as XP, the Windows installer fit on a single CD, which is about 700-800 MB.

Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
"Only" 3GB?  As recently as XP, the Windows installer fit on a single CD, which is about 700-800 MB.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-ak.sparkpeople.com%2Fnw%2F1%2F8%2Fl183849417.jpg&hash=c2cb76972add6e766fda517eff8db12c99e8adc1)

I've downloaded it onto my laptop. Everything fine (though it took a further reset) - so much that it mostly feels like a (nice) cosmetic change from the Windows 7 that I had* - except that the start menu won't open (though I can still get on Chrome, which I had pinned to the taskbar under the 7 regime). :(

*there are some noticeable operation differences.

Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
"Only" 3GB?  As recently as XP, the Windows installer fit on a single CD, which is about 700-800 MB.

Did the installer have to get some components off the internet to finish the installation, and/or decompress what was stored on the CD?

WinXP install files, including the ones specifically needed if upgrading from either 9X or NT as opposed to doing a fresh install, occupy about 550GB on CD. Undoubtedly compressed, but could be completely installed without being connected to the outside world.

And then came the Service Packs, upgraded IE's/WMP's and other patches...

My W7Home laptop seems to have painlessly turned into W10. I "signed up" for the download on Monday, checked at dinnertime Tuesday (which apparently caused it to start the download), and did the full upgrade just now. All user accounts, shared directories and permissions stayed the same. I also had an issue with the start button not bringing up the menu, but it did respond to both manners of bringing up the menu via keyboard commands, and now works with the mouse.  Left my IE icons on the desktop, but has Edge on the Start Menu. Runs all old Apps I've tried, including MsOffice03. VPN's still connect to outside networks. Happy for now-by far the easiest MS upgrade ever.

Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2015, 05:56:43 PM

Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
"Only" 3GB?  As recently as XP, the Windows installer fit on a single CD, which is about 700-800 MB.

Did the installer have to get some components off the internet to finish the installation, and/or decompress what was stored on the CD?

Windows used to be smaller.  Everything was.  XP was released in an era when 20 GB hard drives were still common; today most flash drives and SD cards are bigger.

It's worth noting that installation was a lot slower back then.  The installer got a lot bigger when it was rewritten for speed (and added other things, like a graphical GUI and mouse support throughout the entire install; prior to Vista, the first phase of the install was a keyboard-based UI that looked like it belonged in the MS-DOS era).

Quote from: davewiecking on August 05, 2015, 06:42:01 PMI also had an issue with the start button not bringing up the menu, but it did respond to both manners of bringing up the menu via keyboard commands, and now works with the mouse.

That's encouraging. What keyboard commands did you use? I started by pushing the Windows button, before attempting with the mouse. Neither worked.

I'm waiting to see how Windows 10 will be with Xbox One

In what way, exactly?

Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 09:27:56 PM

Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2015, 05:56:43 PM

Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
"Only" 3GB?  As recently as XP, the Windows installer fit on a single CD, which is about 700-800 MB.

Did the installer have to get some components off the internet to finish the installation, and/or decompress what was stored on the CD?

Windows used to be smaller.  Everything was.  XP was released in an era when 20 GB hard drives were still common; today most flash drives and SD cards are bigger.

It's worth noting that installation was a lot slower back then.  The installer got a lot bigger when it was rewritten for speed (and added other things, like a graphical GUI and mouse support throughout the entire install; prior to Vista, the first phase of the install was a keyboard-based UI that looked like it belonged in the MS-DOS era).

I remember reading somewhere that the Vista through to the current era actually doesn't install windows like Xp did, where it would decompress files. There is a pre-set windows image on the disc, and it just drops in the drivers as needed. As such it just copies files over to the hard drive, versus having to use the processor to decompress a large .cab just to install MSPaint and Wordpad. It mounts the image in RAM, like a Virtual CD Drive or Hard Drive, and copies. Versus having to read a CD, copy to storage, move via the CPU to ram, use the CPU to decompress it in Ram, back to ram to push it to the hard drive, delete what was unneeded, etc.

Quote from: english si on August 06, 2015, 03:38:16 AM

Quote from: davewiecking on August 05, 2015, 06:42:01 PMI also had an issue with the start button not bringing up the menu, but it did respond to both manners of bringing up the menu via keyboard commands, and now works with the mouse.

That's encouraging. What keyboard commands did you use? I started by pushing the Windows button, before attempting with the mouse. Neither worked.

Ctrl-Esc did the trick for me. I'd be really annoyed if MS had eliminated that one.

One thing to keep in mind - and I know it's high risk - but I cannot stress it enough...

Do not settle for an over-the-top upgrade

I've done this with a Win95 to Win98 install and found it being "hybrid" and full of issues.  One would have thought Microsoft had fixed these by the time the number 9 came around and got skipped, but that's NOT the case.

I started with an over-the-top to test it, but today I ended up doing a clean install of Win10 on same computer to much more satisfaction.  The errors that were showing in the over-the-top are now gone - even though I had to fix the product activation (b/c the OS that came with the laptop was Win 8.1 Home, and I got a Win 8.1 pro upgrade (but lost the key in my storage spot (a.k.a. my basement).  Thankfully, the pro got put on with a key and (I think it may have picked that key up as well) no money was charged. All this considering the new method of storing keys was on the BIOS for OEM products.

After that point, I find Windows 10 to be more attractive than Windows 8 functionally, though the trend (of all OSs) is toward one of "phone home to help the computer".  (iOS, MAC OS X and Windows all do this - (Android to a point as well - depending on the vendor)) - Essentially why some of us with serious privacy concerns choose to use Linux.

I guess right now my question is this: Can one simply download it but not install it? I'm in no hurry to install it on either PC, but since they claim the free "pricing" won't last forever, the notion has crossed my mind of doing a pre-emptive download sort of as a hedge against them changing that.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 12, 2015, 08:37:24 AMI guess right now my question is this: Can one simply download it but not install it? I'm in no hurry to install it on either PC, but since they claim the free "pricing" won't last forever, the notion has crossed my mind of doing a pre-emptive download sort of as a hedge against them changing that.

AIUI, you can download but the timing of installation is entirely up to you, and as long as it occurs before the one-year window expires, the resulting copy of Windows 10 is free.  What I don't know is whether you can download without the system subsequently nagging you to install.

If you are looking to hedge, I'd delay a download until after the last Patch Tuesday before the one-year window expires, just to maximize chances of getting a copy that doesn't need to have hundreds of updates downloaded right after it installs.

I rolled back installation of KB 3035583 (the nag update) and don't plan to make a decision about download or installation until June 2016.  The computer I might upgrade then will be almost five years old and it may very well make more sense to keep it running 7 than take a chance on driver problems.  It has a Nvidia GeForce GTX GPU, so 10's recent well-publicized issues with the GeForce family give me pause.

I am also staying more current with 7 updates than usual because I now feel I have to review each update before it installs to be sure I don't pick up another 10 nag update, and letting updates accumulate creates a backlog that is painful to go through.  I may have to rethink this approach, however, since I have seen a sharp increase in BSODs (locale ID 2057) that occur when the computer attempts to go into hibernation after a nightly backup run and then crashes.  It may be a result of keeping Firefox open with three Washington Post tabs dealing with the Hiroshima bombing anniversary, or the computer may have ingested a bad update.

Thanks for that. Sounds like a good idea. I'll keep my eye on the reviews and I'll try to keep a sense for how often I have to go help Ms1995hoo deal with Windows 8.1 on her laptop (the more she gripes, the more I think about the upgrade!).

Is anybody else having this problem? I have Windows 7, and every time my computer tries to upgrade to Windows 10, the installation of the update fails. I get an error code 800240020. I click on "get help with this error" but nothing with that error code shows up in Windows Help. I click on the link to go to Microsoft Help and Support, but I can't find any answers there either. I did find one page where others were posting they were having the same problem, but I didn't find any solutions posted. Anybody have any ideas?

Quote from: tchafe1978 on August 16, 2015, 12:24:36 AM
Is anybody else having this problem? I have Windows 7, and every time my computer tries to upgrade to Windows 10, the installation of the update fails. I get an error code 800240020. I click on "get help with this error" but nothing with that error code shows up in Windows Help. I click on the link to go to Microsoft Help and Support, but I can't find any answers there either. I did find one page where others were posting they were having the same problem, but I didn't find any solutions posted. Anybody have any ideas?

I think you have a typo in that error code. Could it be 80240020 instead? Searching on that at Microsoft's site seems to produce something related to the Windows 10 upgrade.

Yes, that was a typo. I feel dumb for not thinking of if sooner, but I did search the error code on Microsoft's website and found a suggestion. I tried it, and now it's working. Thanks for your suggestion.

FYI: I'm posting this across multiple forums. :) I'm also making this link rich.

It seems to me that when I got through technology upgrades, it goes in the cycle of long periods without any significant upgrade, followed by spurts of multiple upgrades. Last Fall, for example, I finally upgraded my dual-core E6600 which I had built in spring, 2007 to the UberBoxen - a i7-4790K beast of a machine (http://markholtz.info/11n), along with upgrading the home DSL to a 15Mb connection and changing the home phone line to a VoIP connection (sorry, folks, we still use a fax machine). Then, in the past two months, I upgraded my mothers cell phone from a five year old flip phone to a Samsung S5, while I upgraded my own cell phone from a Samsung S3 to a LG G4, plus obtaining a new color duplex printer, a Brother HLL8350CDW Wireless Color Laser Printer. And, oh yeah, upgrade from Windows 7 Home to Windows 10.

I am particularly interested in the Windows 10 upgrade. During a Black Friday sale, I had obtained a deal on some good memory to upgrade my UberBoxen from 8 GB to 32 GB. It wasn't until the day after I placed the order that I realized that Windows 7 Home Premium (http://markholtz.info/132) has a 16GB limit. Whoops. Now, I realize that, for the typical user, there are diminishing returns once you get beyond 8 GB (http://markholtz.info/18p)... unless you plan on running a virtualization platform like Virtualbox (http://markholtz.info/virtualbox) or Lightworks video editing (http://markholtz.info/lightworks). Until very recently, games were compiled for 32bits as well, so they did not even exceed 4GB. If I were to advise someone building a computer, I would suggest doing a price comparison between 8 GB and 16 GB. Plus, RAM is always easy to expand later.

I did not receive the Windows 10 upgrade for the UberBoxen until just before I went on a 10 day vacation. As I am a big believer in both Murphy's Law and Chaos Theory, I figured I would wait until I get back from vacation. Boy, was I glad I did that. While I did make a full drive image just in case I have to go back, that was not needed. However, I had a few stumblesteps along the way.

First time I initiated the Windows 7 upgrade, I got.... "We couldn't update the system reserved partition" error message. Well, that's just great. Pull up Google, and I found this message thread (http://markholtz.info/18n) pointing to this Windows 7 Forum post (http://markholtz.info/18o) about moving the boot partition to the C: drive using EasyBCD (http://markholtz.info/easybcd). Quick fix, but now I have a 100MB partition that is not being used. This isn't 1990. I can't worry too much about 100MB on a 500GB SSD drive.

Time to try Windows update again, and yet another error message: "Windows Update Error Code 80070103". Aaarrrgghhhh.... and it's related to drivers (http://markholtz.info/18m). I figured I would remove the the AntiVirus and visit my motherboard support page to download updated drivers. Because I had no anti-virus installed, Windows insisted that I install Windows Security. This will turn out to be a bad idea. :(

Third time attempting updates.... and it WORKS! But, it's too early to celebrate. Another error message pops up: "Error This device can't release to failure!". Seriously, who writes up these error messages? Another Google search shows this forum post relating to the GigaByte apps (http://markholtz.info/18q). Sigh. Time to remove and reinstall those applications. I won't get into the mess of trying to remove Microsoft Security Essentials in order to reinstall Kapersky's Anti-Virus. (But, it's FREE!)

And, the end result? To me, it feels like Windows 10 is running faster than my Windows 7. The Start menu takes a little getting used to, but it's not the travesty that Windows 8 Metro (or is it TETRIS) that marred Windows 8 and doomed an otherwise good release. I'm still having to tweak a few things in the background, like resetting Notepad++ (http://markholtz.info/npp) to be the default editor instead of Windows Notepad. And, I downloaded Ultimate Windows Tweaker for Windows 10 (http://markholtz.info/uwt10), so I want to explore that too. Unfortunately, Windows Edge isn't exactly done yet, so I'm still using Chrome and Firefox. I have integrated my Google Calendar and Google Mail account into Windows 10, and it seems to work.... just not well.

Inevitably, someone is going to post their list of must have applications for Windows (http://markholtz.info/18r). Not to be left out, here is my list:

• KeePass (http://markholtz.info/keepass) and LastPass (http://markholtz.info/lastpass) Password Managers - Yes, I use both! Keepass is my master password list, but it is also handy for holding my registration keys for products. LastPass contains a subset of my passwords, and is cloud based. Both have strong encryption for keeping the passwords secure.
  
• FreeFileSync (http://markholtz.info/freefilesync) - If you are like me, you probably carry a USB stick of files with you. With me, it's two USB sticks.... one containing my personal files, and one containing a set of utilities "just in case". FreeFileSync is an excellent utility to back up those files to a hard drive.
  
• ShareX (http://markholtz.info/sharex) - As part of my job in technical support, screen shots are essential when diagnosing an issue. I had been using PicPick, but just stumbled upon a free yet more powerful screen capturing tool. Want your screen shot to be automatically saved with a time stamp? No problem. Timed screen shots? No problem. MP4 video of what is occurring? No problem.
  
• Paint.net (http://markholtz.info/paintnet) - Want a powerful yet free photo editing program? Paint.net should be one of the first programs to look at. I often use it to annotate screen shots in my work.
  
• VLC (http://markholtz.info/vlc) - Another "Free yet powerful" video player that plays multiple formats. It's worth mentioning that is can also play back DVDs... something that Microsoft wants you to pay for!
  
• Notepad++ (http://markholtz.info/npp) - Did I mention that I hate Windows Notepad? This notepad replacement is multi-tabbed, and extremely powerful. Now, they need to fix and re-enable spell-checking.
  

Next up on my list.... upgrading my Windows 7 laptop. As for my mothers Windows 8 system.... somehow, she managed to initiate the upgrade, and it worked!