N.Y. Times: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/automobiles/as-the-world-embraces-diesels-americans-still-play-hard-to-get.html)
QuoteLOOKING to increase his fuel economy, Roderick Smith of Woonsocket, R.I., who works in information technology, bought a new Volkswagen Golf at the beginning of the year. Unlike most Americans, Mr. Smith opted for a model equipped with a diesel, rather than a gasoline, engine.
Quote"It's the quietest car I've ever owned," he said.
Quote"Quiet" and "diesel" are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles – if they think about them at all – other words most likely come to mind, like "noisy," "smoky" and "slow."
QuoteBut that has changed. Today's diesel engines run as clean as gasoline engines, get significantly better fuel economy and may even save their owners money in the long run. And, as Mr. Smith discovered, they are quiet, too.
QuoteDiesel-power vehicles have traditionally been offered by European manufacturers; about half of the passenger vehicles sold in Europe run on diesel fuel, compared with less than 1 percent in the United States. With gasoline still costing more than $6 per United States gallon in Britain, any solution that can increase fuel economy is welcomed.
Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline. So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.
What is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?
Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 06, 2015, 11:42:05 PM
Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline. So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.
What is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?
In Germany, the cost of unleaded (95) petrol is $1.49 a liter, so about $5.60 per US gallon. Diesel is is about $4.90 per US gallon.
The context of comparing unleaded and diesel is not as technical as you're making it out to be. They're simply saying that fuel costs in Europe, in general, are higher.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 07, 2015, 12:05:19 AM
Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.
I don't think that's a factor for most buyers, since ~ 2/3 or more of fuel stations have diesel (at least in my area).
Quote from: jakeroot on February 07, 2015, 04:59:22 AM
Quote from: Brian556 on February 07, 2015, 12:05:19 AM
Since there are a good number a service stations that don't have diesel, it could be an inconvenience.
I don't think that's a factor for most buyers, since ~ 2/3 or more of fuel stations have diesel (at least in my area).
It is a factor for people who travel in remote areas, where gas stations are scarce, and diesel might be even more so.
OTOH, in some places diesel might be more available than gas. For example, on the lonely road in Australia discussed on this forum, with a 815-km gap between gas stations (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11581.msg281839#msg281839), you can find diesel along the way.
I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW). The fuel availability issue is NBD as long as you stay in your home region. You know your local stations, of course, and also know which brands in your region consistently have Diesel in the regular car isles. Sometimes travelling it can be a hassle because you don't want to end up driving around all the stations off a particular exit looking for the Diesel selling one, and end up in the line with the 18 Wheelers, which some truck stops are fine with and others are not. Remote areas are not really a problem, because the range of the vehicle is greater, and, actually most remote area are populated by industries that would tend to use Diesel for their trucks and tractors.
All the ho-ha about smoke and soot and noise and dirty and not starting in the cold is just so much ho-ha. The cars work just like any other car. You don't even notice.
What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes. In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal. In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon. So it really does not make economic sense to own one.
Quote from: SP Cook on February 07, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW). The fuel availability issue is NBD as long as you stay in your home region. You know your local stations, of course, and also know which brands in your region consistently have Diesel in the regular car isles. Sometimes travelling it can be a hassle because you don't want to end up driving around all the stations off a particular exit looking for the Diesel selling one, and end up in the line with the 18 Wheelers, which some truck stops are fine with and others are not. Remote areas are not really a problem, because the range of the vehicle is greater, and, actually most remote area are populated by industries that would tend to use Diesel for their trucks and tractors.
All the ho-ha about smoke and soot and noise and dirty and not starting in the cold is just so much ho-ha. The cars work just like any other car. You don't even notice.
What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes. In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal. In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon. So it really does not make economic sense to own one.
Yep, diesel in the US has been consistently more expensive than gasoline for quite some time now. I'm sure that plays a lot into people's decisions when buying a car:
Let's see, do I want to pay 40 cents more per gallon every time I fill up, or not?As for not starting in the cold... I used to drive diesel box trucks for work about eight years ago or so in southern Illinois. One of our trucks did have trouble with the diesel gelling up when the temperature outside was down below 15° or so. Of the three diesel trucks we had, too, that one was the newest model.
It is not uncommon for Diesal fuel to be cheaper than regular grade gasoline during the winter months in Chicagoland.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 06, 2015, 11:42:05 PM
Diesel vehicles don't run on gasoline. So the cost of gas is meaningless when talking about diesel vehicles.
Not really. The only reason many people would consider a diesel vehicle is if it works out to be cheaper to operate than a gas-powered vehicle.
Quote from: SP Cook on February 07, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
I owed a Diesel (Diesel is a person's name and should be capitalized, BTW).
So is watt and amp(ere) and those are not capitalized. Once-capitalized things tend to lose their initial capitals once they become a generic term. This even happens to commercial products–I'm sure you've put a kleenex in a dumpster next to the yellow pages before.
I think too much is made of the Oldsmobile Diesels' bad reputation. For the most part, people have short memories.
In my view, it all comes down to economics. The article suggests that the price premium for a diesel-engined car over its gas-powered twin is in the neighborhood of $2-3,000. That ignores the fact that in the case of many cars, like the Cruze, diesel power is available only in a single, high-content trim level. The Cruze Diesel has an MSRP of over $26,000. If you're truly concerned about operating costs, you can buy a gas-powered Cruze for nearly $10K less.
And then there's confounding reversal in diesel vs. gasoline prices; diesel used to be a few cents less than gasoline back in the early '80s. Now, a gallon of diesel isn't just slightly more expensive–according to the EPA, diesel prices averaged 87¢ more nationally for the week ending January 19. That's more than a third more expensive, and very importantly, more than the 33% average efficiency gain of diesel engines. At those prices, very few Americans could make a financial argument for owning a diesel.
The only diesel vehicles I see regularly are either school busses or NYSDOT vehicles that sound like school busses. Are other diesel vehicles really quieter?
The only diesel vehicles you notice being diesel regularly are either school buses or...
It's very possible you have diesel cars next to you in traffic every week without realizing it.
I've driven a couple of diesel cars in the UK and was quite favorably impressed by them, especially the Passat turbodiesel I drove in Scotland (five-speed manual). I would not hesitate to buy a diesel if the right car were available with that option if/when I'm in the car market, which I hope is not for a long time.
A lot of people will always find it off-putting that diesel tends to cost more than gas in the US. I think that's overly simplistic because you need to compare the cost of diesel to the cost of the particular grade of gas specified for the same car's gas model and then compare their performance; you also have to consider how much more you might pay for the diesel car in the first place. The fuel costing more per gallon may not matter because of the generally-superior fuel economy (in about 450 miles of driving around England I used only 3/4 of a tank of diesel in mixed motorway/A-road/B-road/city driving, for example, whereas my current primary car might get 450 miles on a tank of gas if I spend the entire time on the Interstate in sixth gear). The price difference for the car itself is a bigger potential issue. But I think most people just aren't willing to consider it to that level of detail.
My father has expressed interest in a Mercedes diesel but is concerned about the potential for having to refill the urea tank in a rural area with no Mercedes dealer around. It won't matter either way because he'll dither forever and never get around to it because they use my mother's Volvo S80 when they travel anyway.
My pickup truck has a 7.3L turboDiesel, with a six-speed manual transmission.
As long as I keep the speed at or below 70 MPH (about 110 km/h), I get 20 or 21 MPG (about 12 liters per 100 km). With a 30 gallon (about 110 liter) tank, that gives me a range of well over 500 miles (800 km). Above 70 MPH, the MPG rate declines - something I learned driving across Kansas (most of I-70 in that state has a posted limit of 75 MPH (120 km/h), and the 85th percentile speed was probably closer to 80 MPH (130 km/h)).
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
My father has expressed interest in a Mercedes diesel but is concerned about the potential for having to refill the urea tank in a rural area with no Mercedes dealer around. It won't matter either way because he'll dither forever and never get around to it because they use my mother's Volvo S80 when they travel anyway.
He can purchase jugs of the stuff at truck stops (I do
not think it has to be purchased from a Mercedes dealer).
Quote from: SP Cook on February 07, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes. In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal. In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon. So it really does not make economic sense to own one.
What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.
Quote from: GCrites80s on February 07, 2015, 09:51:05 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 07, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes. In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal. In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon. So it really does not make economic sense to own one.
What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.
Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.
Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon. State taxes vary.
Diesel only enjoys success in Europe because its usage is encouraged by lower taxes on the fuel itself (the price per liter is artificially lower).
It isn't popular in the US due to a few factors
-Price is usually higher per gallon then gasoline, sometimes enough that the extra fuel economy doesn't allow one to break even on running costs. Gasoline vehicles have also been slowly closing the efficiency gap between the engines.
-Purchase price of the vehicle vs. the gasoline version is significantly higher thanks to expensive emissions treatment systems required in the US. Europe has lower emissions standards and doesn't require this.... yet.
Overall, you have to drive a ton of miles a year to come close to breaking even on a diesel vs. gasoline car.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
Quote from: GCrites80s on February 07, 2015, 09:51:05 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 07, 2015, 10:01:45 AM
What holds Diesel back in the USA is taxes. In Europe the taxes tend to be the same, but in the USA, since the main buyers are mostly (out of state and thus non-voting) truckers and corporations, the states jack up the tax on Diesel so high that it saps all the $ benefit out of the deal. In my state, Diesel is about 30% more per gallon. So it really does not make economic sense to own one.
What kind of taxes are these? Highway or regular sales? One of the main reasons Diesel is more expensive in the States than Europe is that our refining capacity is designed to handle gasoline as a much larger percentage of fuel produced actually.
Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.
Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon. State taxes vary.
Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount? But on the federal level Diesel and gasoline are always taxed the same.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 07, 2015, 10:55:49 PM
-Purchase price of the vehicle vs. the gasoline version is significantly higher thanks to expensive emissions treatment systems required in the US. Europe has lower emissions standards and doesn't require this.... yet.
Overall, you have to drive a ton of miles a year to come close to breaking even on a diesel vs. gasoline car.
But on some vehicles such as Dodge Rams, a worn 2000 gasoline Ram is worth maybe $3000 while a Diesel in equivalent condition and mileage is worth $9,000+.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.
Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon. State taxes vary.
That's for gasoline. Federal excise taxes (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=10&t=10) on diesel fuel are 24.4¢ per gallon.
Quote from: GCrites80s on February 07, 2015, 11:29:10 PM
Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount?
On the state level, the differential between gasoline and diesel taxes (full list viewable through the "state-by-state taxes" link on this page (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=10&t=10)) ranges from a 25¢ discount in California to a 29¢ penalty in Connecticut. In most cases (30 states + DC) the rates are either the same or within 1¢ of each other.
Quote from: GCrites80s on February 07, 2015, 11:35:36 PM
But on some vehicles such as Dodge Rams, a worn 2000 gasoline Ram is worth maybe $3000 while a Diesel in equivalent condition and mileage is worth $9,000+.
I think that's largely due to the durability reputations of diesel truck engines in particular (the Ram's being a Cummins with a solid reputation), which routinely return hundreds of thousands of miles of service under demanding conditions without requiring a major rebuild. A diesel Jetta or Golf probably holds value a little better than its gas-powered brethren, but not as dramatically so as a truck, and probably not well enough to make up for VW's generally poor resale value.
Then you have the taxes in Virginia, where gas is not subject to a per-gallon state tax at the pump (it's taxed at the wholesale stage) but diesel is, and the Commonwealth gives a tax refund to owners of diesel cars. I don't know how it works, haven't had reason to learn about it since I don't own a diesel, but I believe the refund is based on the tax per gallon for diesel versus the tax rate on gas at the time of the fuel purchase, so diesel owners have to save their receipts (and get receipts in the first place).
I bring this up because it applies even to out-of-staters who drive qualifying vehicles (diesel passenger cars, pickup or panel trucks, and trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less), so perhaps someone here like cpzilliacus might benefit from it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 06, 2015, 11:42:05 PMWhat is the cost of gasoline & diesel in Europe?
Depends from country to country. (http://www.fuel-prices-europe.info/)
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 06, 2015, 10:39:26 PMN.Y. Times: As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/automobiles/as-the-world-embraces-diesels-americans-still-play-hard-to-get.html)
Meanwhile in Britain, we've come to realise the whole diesel thing is a con: the British papers' reaction to last year's Paris pollution issues were mostly about how the French love diesels, Boris Johnson has talked about increasing the Congestion Charge for diesel vehicles (though sadly not the big-engined diesel black cabs, though he has encouraged greener taxis and buses, with special interest to particulate and NOx reduction) to try and improve air quality, and a senior Labour politician attacks his predecessor for lowering the diesel tax rate to encourage diesel cars (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11368568/Labour-made-wrong-decision-over-diesel-car-tax-admits-shadow-minister.html).
QuoteQuote"Quiet" and "diesel" are two words not usually seen together. When American consumers think of diesel-engine vehicles – if they think about them at all – other words most likely come to mind, like "noisy," "smoky" and "slow."
Noisy and slow, sure - diesels don't have to be that. And I guess NOx and PM10 isn't 'smoky' but 'sooty and toxic'!
NOx levels for drivers in diesel cars are close to dangerous without fuel additives that are flying off the shelves after the diesel con was exposed on TV two weeks ago (http://fleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/Feb/Controversy-over-diesel-emissions-drives-up-fuel-additive-sales/0434018282).
See the Yaris - here's NOx, CO2., noise and mpg (Combined driving) figures for different models
1.5L Petrol Hybrid Continuously Variable: NOx 6mg/km, CO2 75 - 82g/km, 73db(A), 85.6/78.5mpg
1.0L Petrol Manual: NOx 14.8mg/km, CO2 99g/km, 73db(A), 65.7mpg
1.33L Petrol Manual: NOx 8mg/km, CO2 114-119g/km, 72db(A), 57.6/55.4mpg
1.33L Petrol Automatic: NOx 7.2mg/km, CO2 114-119g/km, 73db(A), 57.6/55.4mpg
1.4L Diesel Manual: NOx 141.1mg/km, CO2 99g/km, 69db(A), 72.4mpg
That's ten times the amount of NOx, though the Documentary only claimed 4 times more NOx between diesel and petrol. Not a huge difference in CO2 and not massively big ones in noise and efficiency.
QuoteQuoteBut that has changed. Today's diesel engines run as clean as gasoline engines
In terms of CO2 , sure, there's a small benefit there, but tell that to those tens of thousands each year where diesel emissions have contributed to their premature deaths.
QuoteQuoteWith gasoline still costing more than $6 per United States gallon in Britain, any solution that can increase fuel economy is welcomed.
Why? And it's not like we can buy cars with great fuel economy!
Diesel is about 6p/litre more in Britain these days (though the extra 15 mpg you get renders that cost moot). And fuel economy isn't everything - the hidden cost of EU lawsuits (paid by all taxpayers, not just those travelling in diesel powered vehicles) for bad air quality undoes the financial bonus, which is about the only reason to get a diesel.
Quote from: briantroutman on February 08, 2015, 01:08:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
Per-gallon excise taxes, imposed by the state and federal governments in the United States.
Federal tax is USD $0.184 per gallon. State taxes vary.
That's for gasoline. Federal excise taxes (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=10&t=10) on diesel fuel are 24.4¢ per gallon.
Quote from: GCrites80s on February 07, 2015, 11:29:10 PM
Indeed. So in some states, Diesel is taxed at a higher amount?
On the state level, the differential between gasoline and diesel taxes (full list viewable through the "state-by-state taxes" link on this page (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=10&t=10)) ranges from a 25¢ discount in California to a 29¢ penalty in Connecticut. In most cases (30 states + DC) the rates are either the same or within 1¢ of each other.
So in most states, the 30% premium on Diesel is mostly due to refining capacity, other infrastructure issues, commodities markets and other macro factors.
Here in the USA, one also has to factor in EPA (federal 'Environmental Protection Agency') emissions limit rules. Their latest 'Tier' of limits ('Tier IV?') are so low that they are now stretching the very capabilities of diesel engine tech to their breaking point, not just in cars but in big-rig trucks, buses, railroad locomotives, off-road heavy construction equipment and so forth, such that any further rule tightening may be physically impossible for diesel engines to ever be able to meet.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2015, 04:18:21 PM
The only diesel vehicles you notice being diesel regularly are either school buses or...
It's very possible you have diesel cars next to you in traffic every week without realizing it.
Oh, I realize it. I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them. Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.
Quote from: Brandon on February 08, 2015, 11:17:08 AM
Oh, I realize it. I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them. Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.
But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71) Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got
much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).
Quote from: mgk920 on February 08, 2015, 11:03:01 AM
Here in the USA, one also has to factor in EPA (federal 'Environmental Protection Agency') emissions limit rules. Their latest 'Tier' of limits ('Tier IV?') are so low that they are now stretching the very capabilities of diesel engine tech to their breaking point, not just in cars but in big-rig trucks, buses, railroad locomotives, off-road heavy construction equipment and so forth, such that any further rule tightening may be physically impossible for diesel engines to ever be able to meet.
Mike
Though it should be noted that EPA Tier IV standards are still not nearly as strict as Euro 6 standards, so that can't be what accounts for everybody in the EU driving a diesel and everybody in the US driving a petrol, or that the technology will have to keep up anyway as long as folks want to do business in Europe.
The only thing now that American diesels are good for nowadays is rolling coal.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 08, 2015, 11:17:08 AM
Oh, I realize it. I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them. Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.
But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71) Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).
It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.
RE: resale values on Ram diesel trucks - it's not so much that it's a diesel, but that it's a Cummins diesel.
Nissan's new Titan XD trucks will offer a new Cummins light-duty diesel (that was destined for Ram, but dropped during the auto industry meltdown/bankruptcy.)
I think the only domestic automaker offering a diesel-powered car today is GM - with a VM Motori-supplied diesel in the Chevy Cruze. Ram has the 1500 EcoDiesel and Jeep has a Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel. GM and Ford have their diesel pickups. Otherwise you go to Mercedes and BMW and VW (and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting.)
A friend purchased a VW Passat TDi a couple years back. It was warranty approved to use biodiesel up to B5. About the same time, Illinois approved a law for providing an incentive to sell B11 biodiesel. The incentive gives complete fuel tax exemption for any blend of biodiesel greater than 10 percent, making Illinois a unique state where B11 is found everywhere. And now my friend had nowhere to purchase fuel for his car without voiding his warranty - never mind the fact that there were few stations that sold diesel in the first place between his home and work.
VW had to test, approve and extend warranty coverage so consumers could use B11 in their VW TDi cars.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:41:26 PM
But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71) Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).
This, by the way, is why diesel is now more expensive than gasoline in the US when for a long time it was the other way around. The extra refining costs to get the sulfur out drive the price up.
As for why Americans don't buy diesel cars, well, I'd say it's simply that we've never had much reason to. A lot of European countries for whatever reason decided they were going to tax the bejesus out of gasoline but go a bit less hard on diesel fuel. This drove a lot of customers to get diesel cars in order to save on fuel costs. In the US this motivation doesn't particularly exist, so the market never moved in that direction.
Quote from: corco on February 08, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Though it should be noted that EPA Tier IV standards are still not nearly as strict as Euro 6 standards, so that can't be what accounts for everybody in the EU driving a diesel and everybody in the US driving a petrol, or that the technology will have to keep up anyway as long as folks want to do business in Europe.
A US market diesel built to EPA Tier II Bin 5 limits meets or exceeds Euro 6 standards if I'm reading the docs right. The US EPA and CARB has always had stricter NOx and particulate emissions standards compared to Europe. The EPA also holds gas and diesel engines to the same standard while the emissions standards differ by fuel type in Europe.
Getting NOx emissions down to acceptable limits in diesels is where most of the cost comes from in the emissions treatment systems. VW managed to do it in their smaller cars with a fancy system that traps and burns particulates (they run richer to reduce NOx). In their larger cars and most everyone else's diesels, they rely on selective catalytic reduction and using Urea injection (BlueTEC) to neutralize the NOx.
If it wasn't for stricter standards on the horizon in Europe, car manufacturers likely wouldn't have put all that R&D into cleaner diesels since US market sales alone wouldn't have amortized the cost.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 08, 2015, 11:17:08 AM
Oh, I realize it. I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them. Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.
But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71) Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).
It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.[/quote]It was the sulfur when there was sulfur in diesel. But it was just the sulfur and there's still the issues of NOx, and PM10 (and other particulates).
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 09, 2015, 12:41:54 AMA US market diesel built to EPA Tier II Bin 5 limits meets or exceeds Euro 6 standards if I'm reading the docs right. The US EPA and CARB has always had stricter NOx and particulate emissions standards compared to Europe.
And bingo, we have why the US doesn't do diesel cars in a big way - because it way more advanced that Europe here!
In Europe (though I suspect the tide is beginning to turn) that diesels don't emit quite as much CO2 convinced lawmakers, obsessed with only that one pollutant thanks to a warped environmental narrative that went all in to trying to stop climate change and treating that as trumping almost* every other green cause (like clean air), to give serious tax breaks to diesel and make it cheaper and thus encourage diesel car usage.
*not no nuclear power, however - because they confuse nuclear power with nuclear bombs and also the green movement in Western Europe has political roots in Communist groups, who felt there was no need to defend the West against Soviet bombs.
Quote from: Brandon on February 08, 2015, 09:17:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 08, 2015, 11:17:08 AM
Oh, I realize it. I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them. Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.
But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71) Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).
It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.
Soot (or to use emissions geek-speak, PM10 (particulate matter 10 microns or less in size) or the smaller PM2.5) in Diesel engine emissions comes from two things - sulfur in the fuel, and unburned Diesel fuel.
Sulfur has been reduced probably as low as it can go (Diesels, as I understand it, need a little sulfur in the fuel). Black clouds of smoke are unburned fuel, so any idiot that tinkers with his engine (in particular the fuel injectors) to allow "coal rolling" is literally sending lots of unburned fuel out the exhaust. It is illegal at the federal level to emit such amounts of smoke, and also illegal in some states, but there is not much enforcement, as few law enforcement officers have the equipment to do a roadside check for exhaust opacity to see if the vehicle is in violation.
Modern Diesels
do not smoke much if they are in proper running condition. Mine smokes if I have to start it on a cold morning and the engine block heater was not plugged-in, but even then, the smoke goes away pretty quickly as the block heats up.
Quote from: english si on February 09, 2015, 09:58:50 AM
In Europe (though I suspect the tide is beginning to turn) that diesels don't emit quite as much CO2 convinced lawmakers, obsessed with only that one pollutant thanks to a warped environmental narrative that went all in to trying to stop climate change and treating that as trumping almost* every other green cause (like clean air), to give serious tax breaks to diesel and make it cheaper and thus encourage diesel car usage.
*not no nuclear power, however - because they confuse nuclear power with nuclear bombs and also the green movement in Western Europe has political roots in Communist groups, who felt there was no need to defend the West against Soviet bombs.
Agreed.
The frantic opposition to the construction of the Øresund Bridge-Tunnel in the 1980's and early 1990's was in large part centered in anti-nuclear and Communist groups (the Swedish Communists opposing the crossing on direct orders from Moscow up until the time that the Soviet Union went out of business).
Quote from: Duke87 on February 08, 2015, 11:12:44 PM
This, by the way, is why diesel is now more expensive than gasoline in the US when for a long time it was the other way around. The extra refining costs to get the sulfur out drive the price up.
Agreed.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 08, 2015, 11:12:44 PM
As for why Americans don't buy diesel cars, well, I'd say it's simply that we've never had much reason to. A lot of European countries for whatever reason decided they were going to tax the bejesus out of gasoline but go a bit less hard on diesel fuel. This drove a lot of customers to get diesel cars in order to save on fuel costs. In the US this motivation doesn't particularly exist, so the market never moved in that direction.
CAFE rules (which apparently are strictly based on miles-per-gallon or liters-per-100-km) would seem to make Diesels attractive to the car companies in meeting such standards.
As for why Americans do not purchase Diesels in passenger cars, I can come up with a suggestion from many years ago (early 1980's) - the
incredibly unreliable Diesel engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Diesel_engine) that GM put in some of its cars (mostly Oldsmobile, also other GM marques).
More on the GM/Olds Diesel 5.7L (350 cid) engines here (http://www.dieselhub.com/idi/olds-diesel.html).
An old Top Gear episode (1991, long before it became a comedy show) where a younger Jeremy Clarkson talks about buying diesel cars.
Inb4 Bugo says
"no such thing as clean diesel, all diesel makes me gag therefore is dirty"
Diesel has come a long way.
Where i worked i drove a 1990 Freightliner FLD with a 10L I6 cummins indirect injected turbo diesel, only blew out smoke when you floored it and only a small puff of smoke. That was due to a bit of lag in the system from the mechanical fuel injection system.
Rollin coal will never go away, neither will people cutting their cats off. Same "gain" in their mind "epa=bad....reduces power!" in reality it doesn't do much for power, and will cause your turbo to get crud covered rather rapidly thanks to the soot going through it.
The reason big trucks use diesel is because diesel is more efficient and the mileage is better. If a big truck used gasoline, it would have to stop for refueling many instances more at great cost to the trucking company and the driver if independent.
And gas engines wouldn't last nearly as long spinning double the RPM as a diesel.