In the past, pedestrian signals were either available in one or two box variants. In the two box variant, the DON'T WALK and WALK indications were in separate boxes. However, it seems that the trend is now towards one box signals, while two box signals seem to be going away, although some two box signals have been retrofitted with LED indicators with the raised hand/walking man in the top box and the countdown timer in the bottom box; this was commonly done in the late 1990s as a drop-in replacement to keep the existing enclosures as a way for cities to save money.
I wonder, why are cities moving away from the two box pedestrian signals?
Some of the two-box variants also had symbols.
I prefer the one-box varient. Since 2003, they've also had countdowns which are nice. 95% of the lights in Seattle are updated, and I do like it when I'm driving at night -- I can notice how long the light will be green by looking at the pedestrian countdowns.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 04, 2015, 03:07:10 PM
I wonder, why are cities moving away from the two box pedestrian signals?
Unlike a traffic light, where a color-blind person may not notice a green vs red light if it was in a single box, a ped signal uses symbols in addition to colors to indicate whether a ped may or may not cross. Thus, only one box is necessary.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 04, 2015, 03:07:10 PMI wonder, why are cities moving away from the two box pedestrian signals?
Short answer: cost.
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 04, 2015, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 04, 2015, 03:07:10 PMI wonder, why are cities moving away from the two box pedestrian signals?
Short answer: cost.
I know in the late 1990s, some cities retrofitted their existing two-box pedestrian signals with LED indications, with the countdown timer in the lower box. However, now even these seem to be going away. I don't think I have ever seen any two box pedestrian signals here in the Phoenix area.
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I have seen one in Madison WI, but all 3 in one vertical line: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.075424,-89.450953,3a,75y,7.72h,87.41t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZ-poC9iZgdTS8qx5AH-Zg!2e0
Quote from: Big John on March 04, 2015, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I have seen one in Madison WI, but all 3 in one vertical line: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.075424,-89.450953,3a,75y,7.72h,87.41t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZ-poC9iZgdTS8qx5AH-Zg!2e0
Since you brought up Madison, they routinely install two-unit pedestrian signals for new signal installations, with a combo hand/man unit on top of a separate countdown unit. Most everyone else around Wisconsin (WisDOT included) installs the single-unit, combo hand/man/countdown indication. Similarly, they seem to refuse to switch to the polycarbonate housings, despite how much paint flakes off the metal housings within a couple years. While other communities seem to make life easier and piggyback off of WisDOT standards, Madison seems to routinely give WisDOT the middle finger.
Quote from: Big John on March 04, 2015, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I have seen one in Madison WI, but all 3 in one vertical line: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.075424,-89.450953,3a,75y,7.72h,87.41t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZ-poC9iZgdTS8qx5AH-Zg!2e0
The WALK and DONT WALK faces appear to be programmed-visibility heads there; the opposite corner of the intersection (http://goo.gl/maps/xcXqA) has one such setup as well and one new one with WALK and DONT WALK on top and timer on the bottom of only two heads, the type that is present elsewhere at the intersection. The configuration of the intersection (with channelized left turns) evidently made it safest to hold over the programmed-visibility heads from the old signals (visible in older street view) so people wouldn't see the far side signal and see WALK when they really have DONT WALK.
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I believe that particular example is meant for installations where a countdown display is added on to an existing two section pedestrian signal. It's doubtful any agency would put in three new units when you can install an all-in-one unit for cheaper.
Quote from: PurdueBill on March 05, 2015, 01:19:20 AM
Quote from: Big John on March 04, 2015, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I have seen one in Madison WI, but all 3 in one vertical line: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.075424,-89.450953,3a,75y,7.72h,87.41t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZ-poC9iZgdTS8qx5AH-Zg!2e0
The WALK and DONT WALK faces appear to be programmed-visibility heads there; the opposite corner of the intersection (http://goo.gl/maps/xcXqA) has one such setup as well and one new one with WALK and DONT WALK on top and timer on the bottom of only two heads, the type that is present elsewhere at the intersection. The configuration of the intersection (with channelized left turns) evidently made it safest to hold over the programmed-visibility heads from the old signals (visible in older street view) so people wouldn't see the far side signal and see WALK when they really have DONT WALK.
Nice find. Those are 3M PV pedestrian signals.
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 04, 2015, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 04, 2015, 03:07:10 PMI wonder, why are cities moving away from the two box pedestrian signals?
Short answer: cost.
Yes, but in conjunction with technology. The two box ped heads had different color lights for the different legends. Once it became possible to integrate the two symbols, there was no need for separate boxes.
Quote from: Big John on March 04, 2015, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 04, 2015, 10:28:48 PM
As long as we are somewhat on the subject, did the three box pedestrian signal, as shown Figure 4E-1 of the MUTCD, (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/fig4e_01_longdesc.htm) ever get used anywhere?
I have seen one in Madison WI, but all 3 in one vertical line: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.075424,-89.450953,3a,75y,7.72h,87.41t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZ-poC9iZgdTS8qx5AH-Zg!2e0
During the early 80s, very experimental (& short-lived) 3-box pedestrian signal heads were on several traffic signals along Beacon St. in Brookline, MA. The top & bottom box had the usual orange
DONT WALK, white
WALK messages but the middle box had a white
DONT START message.
The middle signal would flash while the
WALK signal was on (it was lit alone for a short period). The flashing
DONT START/steady
WALK display combo was intended to be interpreted/treated the same way that a flashing
DONT WALK display would on other pedestrian signals (pedestrians already in the crosswalk can continue but those on the sidewalk should not start crossing the street).
Quote from: DaBigE on March 05, 2015, 12:30:38 AM
While other communities seem to make life easier and piggyback off of WisDOT standards, Madison seems to routinely give WisDOT the middle finger.
It seems to be a requirement for federal funding that local agencies use state standards/design as much as possible, but somehow the bigger agencies seem to get around this (Madison in Wisconsin, Chicago in Illinois)
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 05, 2015, 10:21:28 PM
It seems to be a requirement for federal funding that local agencies use state standards/design as much as possible, but somehow the bigger agencies seem to get around this (Madison in Wisconsin, Chicago in Illinois)
Here in the Phoenix area, Tempe and Goodyear mostly use CAID Industries modular traffic posts instead of the ADOT standard. Also, many traffic posts installed 2005 or later in the City of Phoenix use straight mast arms instead of the curved ADOT standard, although more recently Phoenix has started to installed more ADOT-style masts in a few places.
Slightly OT, has anyone here ever seen the traffic signals at the weigh stations along US 301 in Maryland? They look like pedestrian signals but with multiple boxes.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 07, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
Slightly OT, has anyone here ever seen the traffic signals at the weigh stations along US 301 in Maryland? They look like pedestrian signals but with multiple boxes.
Here's the example of what I'm talking about, people.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NB_US_301_MD;_Upper_Marlboro_Weigh_Station-3.jpg
As long as this thread's revived.
British Columbia is a huge mix of one- and two-box pedestrian signals. The MOT can't seem to make up their mind. For signalised junctions along BC-17 (the South Fraser Perimeter Road), single-box units were utilised (these were installed around 2013). However, at the more-recently completed BC-99/16 Ave interchange (completed in 2014), the two-box units were utilised. In the City of Vancouver, the single-box unit is preferred (and has been so for some time). The same could be said for Coquitlam, however, some newer intersections utilise the two-box units. I can't quite figure out what's going on.
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on January 04, 2018, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 07, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
Slightly OT, has anyone here ever seen the traffic signals at the weigh stations along US 301 in Maryland? They look like pedestrian signals but with multiple boxes.
Here's the example of what I'm talking about, people.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NB_US_301_MD;_Upper_Marlboro_Weigh_Station-3.jpg
The only unusual adaptation of pedestrian signal heads, that I've been made aware of, has been California's use of them to indicate when a ramp meter is being used:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.ca.gov%2Fd7%2Fimages%2Frampmeter.jpg&hash=78de8d7ef041431413723a33fbe03aabd2866d78)
OT Interesting fact: The image above, shown on Caltrans' website (http://www.dot.ca.gov/d7/programs/ramp-metering/), shows the former onramp to Hwy 1 (https://goo.gl/bsu6vS) in Port Coquitlam, BC, the only ramp meter ever used in BC (removed about four years ago).
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 01:09:58 AM
The only unusual adaptation of pedestrian signal heads, that I've been made aware of, has been California's use of them to indicate when a ramp meter is being used:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.ca.gov%2Fd7%2Fimages%2Frampmeter.jpg&hash=78de8d7ef041431413723a33fbe03aabd2866d78)
Nevada uses these as well. They're not in the MUTCD and FHWA does not like them–preference is for the static warning sign (introduced in 2009 MUTCD) with flashing beacon.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on January 04, 2018, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on December 07, 2017, 10:23:21 PM
Slightly OT, has anyone here ever seen the traffic signals at the weigh stations along US 301 in Maryland? They look like pedestrian signals but with multiple boxes.
Here's the example of what I'm talking about, people.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NB_US_301_MD;_Upper_Marlboro_Weigh_Station-3.jpg
That's a 3M signal with a bunch of sections for the weigh station!
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 01:09:58 AM
The only unusual adaptation of pedestrian signal heads, that I've been made aware of, has been California's use of them to indicate when a ramp meter is being used:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.ca.gov%2Fd7%2Fimages%2Frampmeter.jpg&hash=78de8d7ef041431413723a33fbe03aabd2866d78)
I believe that also used to be used in Utah at least at one interchange. I have no idea where it was, but I feel like I remember that. Utah certainly doesn't use that anymore, favoring the static sign with flashing beacons, as
roadfro mentioned above.
Quote from: roadguy2 on January 05, 2018, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 01:09:58 AM
The only unusual adaptation of pedestrian signal heads, that I've been made aware of, has been California's use of them to indicate when a ramp meter is being used:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.ca.gov%2Fd7%2Fimages%2Frampmeter.jpg&hash=78de8d7ef041431413723a33fbe03aabd2866d78)
I believe that also used to be used in Utah at least at one interchange. I have no idea where it was, but I feel like I remember that. Utah certainly doesn't use that anymore, favoring the static sign with flashing beacons, as roadfro mentioned above.
California, much like Nevada and Utah, are also shedding away from the "METER ON" ped signal in favor of the static sign/flashing beacon combo.
As far as other uses of the 16-inch pedestrian signals, I've seen municipalities in New Jersey use them for transit signals, where bar indications are used. Green = vertical bar, yellow = 45 degree angle bar, and red = horizontal bar. Here's an example in Camden...
https://goo.gl/maps/f2oVKqieKZK2
Quote from: roadfro on January 05, 2018, 10:17:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 01:09:58 AM
The only unusual adaptation of pedestrian signal heads, that I've been made aware of, has been California's use of them to indicate when a ramp meter is being used:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.ca.gov%2Fd7%2Fimages%2Frampmeter.jpg&hash=78de8d7ef041431413723a33fbe03aabd2866d78)
Nevada uses these as well. They're not in the MUTCD and FHWA does not like them–preference is for the static warning sign (introduced in 2009 MUTCD) with flashing beacon.
No surprise Nevada would use them too! They're kind of "California-lite".
Oregon, as far as I know, is still installing small VMS displays to alert drivers to active meters. Not sure what message is displayed, though. Washington has been using the static warning sign with flashing beacon for a while now.
NYSDOT used two section ped signals for decades at least in region 4. It would have been interesting if they went to a three section head when countdown timers were introduced.
Quote from: steviep24 on January 06, 2018, 10:03:10 AM
NYSDOT used two section ped signals for decades at least in region 4. It would have been interesting if they went to a three section head when countdown timers were introduced.
R10 also used two box ped signals up until the mid-late 2000s. Later versions had the symbols in LED format, with the final version being one box symbols one box timer (some had symbols on top, others on bottom)
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 12:59:16 AM
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
While I haven't seen any new two-box ped heads installed anywhere in Washington in a very long time, there are plenty of old examples laying around still.
* Vancouver (WA) still has a bunch of them (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6324842,-122.6738541,3a,59.1y,263.64h,87.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQnpzVf5c8uVqK1JcCVUywg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en). They have mostly, if not entirely, been retrofitted with symbolic indications in the top box and a countdown timer in the bottom box.
* Seattle has a history of using 3M PV pedestrian signals, in symbolic (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6001471,-122.3306235,3a,15y,243.95h,88.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPILPogSeI0kVlwYZVh08ww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) and word-message (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6614543,-122.3207218,3a,75y,66.99h,88.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpY-1h9TG0bopU68baRhQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) versions, in locations where they wanted to restrict visibility of the pedestrian indications (though I'm not sure if they ever worked super well for that purpose). They also used standard two-box signals a long time ago, both with word-message (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6866766,-122.3120334,3a,15y,169.61h,91.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssDSmKgQHq48JUy4bQAxRyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) and symbolic (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6866766,-122.3120334,3a,15y,169.61h,91.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssDSmKgQHq48JUy4bQAxRyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) indications. (They also used one-box word-message ped heads (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6432389,-122.3032878,3a,75y,203.41h,95.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sf9v_3dolfwalfUuCeUE7Qw!2e0!5s20140501T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) at some point; I'm not sure of the full history.)
* I know of at least one WSDOT signal that still has two-box ped heads, at US 101 and Golf Course Rd in Port Angeles (https://www.google.com/maps/@48.1067682,-123.4026671,3a,75y,123.01h,78.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6xur7bUzoO3tFEhNHcmy1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en). However, I'm not sure if this was originally a WSDOT install or not. I've also never seen two-box symbolic ped heads on a WSDOT signal.
Its not uncommon in Oregon to see a 2 box crossing. It is mostly replaced with a one box symbolic crpssings though. In Sherwood the only one left is a school pedestrian signal.
Quote from: jay8g on January 07, 2018, 02:12:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 12:59:16 AM
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
While I haven't seen any new two-box ped heads installed anywhere in Washington in a very long time, there are plenty of old examples laying around still.
[clipped]
Thank you for the list! I didn't realise there will still so many examples.
I did just see a two-box setup yesterday evening, at 45th & I-5 in Seattle: https://goo.gl/7szeaW. It's mounted below a supplementary left turn signal head, something that SDOT rarely uses, but WSDOT does occasionally. Which makes me think it might be a WSDOT install. Either way, it's ancient. It has to be one of the few crosswalk signals left in the city with wording.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2018, 05:44:32 AM
Quote from: jay8g on January 07, 2018, 02:12:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 12:59:16 AM
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
While I haven't seen any new two-box ped heads installed anywhere in Washington in a very long time, there are plenty of old examples laying around still.
[clipped]
Thank you for the list! I didn't realise there will still so many examples.
I did just see a two-box setup yesterday evening, at 45th & I-5 in Seattle: https://goo.gl/7szeaW. It's mounted below a supplementary left turn signal head, something that SDOT rarely uses, but WSDOT does occasionally. Which makes me think it might be a WSDOT install. Either way, it's ancient. It has to be one of the few crosswalk signals left in the city with wording.
It's an old 3M ped signal as well! Is its partner on the far side still there as well?
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6614543,-122.3207218,3a,15y,272.01h,90.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpY-1h9TG0bopU68baRhQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 12, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2018, 05:44:32 AM
Quote from: jay8g on January 07, 2018, 02:12:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 12:59:16 AM
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
While I haven't seen any new two-box ped heads installed anywhere in Washington in a very long time, there are plenty of old examples laying around still.
[clipped]
Thank you for the list! I didn't realise there will still so many examples.
I did just see a two-box setup yesterday evening, at 45th & I-5 in Seattle: https://goo.gl/7szeaW. It's mounted below a supplementary left turn signal head, something that SDOT rarely uses, but WSDOT does occasionally. Which makes me think it might be a WSDOT install. Either way, it's ancient. It has to be one of the few crosswalk signals left in the city with wording.
It's an old 3M ped signal as well! Is its partner on the far side still there as well?
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6614543,-122.3207218,3a,15y,272.01h,90.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpY-1h9TG0bopU68baRhQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Crap, I didn't notice! I was going EB to NB, so it wasn't in my vision. But I would guess so. Rarely see those things replaced à la carte. The only ped-head in Pierce County (just south of Seattle) with words instead of symbols has a companion head.
Are the 3M ped signals pretty rare?
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2018, 07:53:30 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 12, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2018, 05:44:32 AM
Quote from: jay8g on January 07, 2018, 02:12:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2018, 12:59:16 AM
Washington has been a long-time user of the single-box unit. I'm not aware of any two-box units.
While I haven't seen any new two-box ped heads installed anywhere in Washington in a very long time, there are plenty of old examples laying around still.
[clipped]
Thank you for the list! I didn't realise there will still so many examples.
I did just see a two-box setup yesterday evening, at 45th & I-5 in Seattle: https://goo.gl/7szeaW. It's mounted below a supplementary left turn signal head, something that SDOT rarely uses, but WSDOT does occasionally. Which makes me think it might be a WSDOT install. Either way, it's ancient. It has to be one of the few crosswalk signals left in the city with wording.
It's an old 3M ped signal as well! Is its partner on the far side still there as well?
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6614543,-122.3207218,3a,15y,272.01h,90.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpY-1h9TG0bopU68baRhQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Crap, I didn't notice! I was going EB to NB, so it wasn't in my vision. But I would guess so. Rarely see those things replaced à la carte. The only ped-head in Pierce County (just south of Seattle) with words instead of symbols has a companion head.
Are the 3M ped signals pretty rare?
Somewhat. They used to be more common (DC had a ton and they still have a good number, both worded and hand/man) but I don't think they were every really that common (since it's basically a PV signal used as a ped signal, quite likely much more expensive than a standard ped signal in a typical use, and the only justifiable uses are few and far between) and LED upgrades have helped them diminish in count rather fast. You can still find a few if you know where to look though, but I'm personally not sure of any left in the southeast anymore (or anywhere outside of DC, Washington, and maybe Californa and/or Michigan, TBH).
Who is still adding 2 box ped signals? Bloomington/Normal IL still is.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 13, 2018, 02:25:17 AM
Who is still adding 2 box ped signals? Bloomington/Normal IL still is.
You can add Washington D.C. to that list, I believe.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 13, 2018, 02:30:39 AM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 13, 2018, 02:25:17 AM
Who is still adding 2 box ped signals? Bloomington/Normal IL still is.
You can add Washington D.C. to that list, I believe.
In British Columbia, they continue to pop up randomly. Definitely not being installed in Washington State anymore.