I know that we do have a few practitioners on the forum, and I hope that this topic is in accordance with forum rules. If not, please lock the topic and let me know.
FHWA and the HOV / Managed Use Lanes Pooled Fund Study are investigating the Best Practices for Signing on a Multi-Segment Managed Lanes Network.
This study involves how to better sign managed lanes when multiple segments intersect to form a regional network. Two phases of signing simulation are to be performed. This is the first phase, which involves a relatively straightforward online survey that presents potential signs for Managed Networks and poses questions to respondents to determine the efficacy of the signs to convey the intended messages. Basically, we are determining the sign's effectiveness when drivers have plenty of time to digest the sign. In the second phase, the more effective versions will move into a driving simulator in selected locations in the US.
This survey is open to all, and the more opportunities to receive critical review, the better the chance for effective signage guidance.
The link is: http://www.expresslanessignagestudy.com/
Your help is greatly appreciated in making this survey a success!
QuoteWhen deciding to use an Express Lane or not, rate the importance of the information that should be displayed on the sign:
They left out "whether you'll be charged more if you don't have a transponder". "Vehicle Requirements (e.g., transponder)" is not the same thing, since a transponder may not be required, yet you'll be hit with fees if you use toll-by-plate. Florida handles this reasonably, though it's not clear whether the 'admin charges' are included in the stated price (they're probably not).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasturnpike.com%2Fall-electronictolling%2FESP%2Fimages%2FTollByPlate_WeBillYouSign.jpg&hash=073d104ed6e8b19739a134d68be63e0ae70be6b6)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ilovedestin.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2Fphoto1.jpg&hash=a50c608727ef3bbdee03d0fc2a4600f7f736a57a)
QuoteYou are driving by yourself on the Express Lane without a transponder. The toll you will pay to go to I-20 is:
Same problem here; the sign says $1.75 for 'plate toll' but there's a good chance they'll tack on fees, so I said 'don't know'.
QuoteDoes the I-20 East Express Lane Continue?
The "correct" answer is probably yes (so that's what I picked), but it might merge into the I-20 main lanes just ahead.
QuoteYou are driving with enough passengers to be considered an HOV on the Express Lane without a HOVPass transponder. The toll you will pay to go to I-20 is:
Depends if the vehicle has a TollPass transponder or not.
For this sign, one of the questions was "Do High Occupancy Vehicles pay a toll on the Express Lane?" I answered "I don't know" because the sign doesn't say "HOVPass" rides free.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expresslanessignagestudy.com%2Fimages%2Fvisual_messaging%2Fentrance_alternative_1_no_corner.png%3Fmaxwidth%3D600%26amp%3Bmaxheight%3D400&hash=a159dde9d75acc8bee2f24e13ead4ed39f37d72c)
I submitted a bunch of comments at the end based on what I've seen of the signage in Northern Virginia and Miami (and I stated that was the basis of my comments). Unfortunately, I copied the text, but then I screwed up and copied something else in the meantime before pasting it, so I don't have them to paste here. Things I remember mentioning:
–People in Northern Virginia have complained about the signs not saying "TOLL." The sample sign shown here uses that word, but signs out on the roads now don't. Consider using "TOLL" or "TOLL ROAD" or "TOLL LANE" because some people are apparently confused by this sort of thing. Don't assume that the E-ZPass logo is sufficient.
–Develop a "NO CASH" symbol, perhaps used in conjunction with said words. Find out whether the EU or Vienna Convention countries have such a symbol; if so, consider adopting that.
I think I said something else, but I don't remember what it was.
I had to mention in comments that the answer to "have you heard the term Express Lanes before today?" may Yes from people who are familiar with it from an Express/Local setup (e.g., I-271), and the rest of the questions on that page seem to assume that if you're familiar with the term then you know it in the context of tolls or possibly HOV.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Foh%2Fi-271%2Fsex.jpg&hash=83a330127bcd0cc78593075e90084413c6f3c8a9)
The Express Lanes on I-90/94 near Chicago are on the same principle. It would be interesting to see the differences in response patterns of people familiar with a 271 or 90/94 Express Lane vs. something near DC or Baltimore.
http://www.expresslanessignagestudy.com/
There's a short survey to fill out to help develop standards (for the next MUTCD?).
Interesting survey. I stalled at the first sign question, which seems to be saying "you will pay a toll via either EZpass-type thing, or having your license plate read". Which isn't an option to select...and I can't legitimately select "unsure what this sign tells me".
Took the survey. Not sure that they'll give it much weight considering that I don't own a vehicle.
I'm not into the whole "duplicate thread police" thing, but one of the moderators might want to merge the two threads on this topic so any useful commentary all winds up in the same place.
Other thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14961.0
I never think of those toll lanes as express lanes. Coming from Chicago and Detroit, I think of express lanes as the reversibles along the Kennedy, or the separate carriageways along the Ryan or Jeffries.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2015, 09:14:35 AM
I'm not into the whole "duplicate thread police" thing, but one of the moderators might want to merge the two threads on this topic so any useful commentary all winds up in the same place.
Other thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14961.0
The two threads have now been merged into one thread.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 06, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
For this sign, one of the questions was "Do High Occupancy Vehicles pay a toll on the Express Lane?" I answered "I don't know" because the sign doesn't say "HOVPass" rides free.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expresslanessignagestudy.com%2Fimages%2Fvisual_messaging%2Fentrance_alternative_1_no_corner.png%3Fmaxwidth%3D600%26amp%3Bmaxheight%3D400&hash=a159dde9d75acc8bee2f24e13ead4ed39f37d72c)
As I saw no supplemental plate or other sign indicating that HOV (with or without HOVPass) rides free, I answered "No".
Is an HOVPass equivalent to "EZPass with HOV switch"? Don't you just love surveys that raise more questions than they answer?
Hi everyone,
I wanted to let you know that this study is now in its second phase. Below is the info I got from FHWA on this:
The Best Practices for Signing on a Multi-Segment Managed Lanes Network project as an FHWA Pooled Fund Study project now in its second survey phase. You may have participated in the first survey, which was a major success, and we are grateful for all the help we received. We are now asking for your help with the second phase. We ask that you take the survey yourself and distribute this to others inside and outside of your organization. You may wish to put a link to the survey on your website. We are looking for responses from transportation professionals in addition to all others that drive our roadways. We can filter responses and response from all levels of familiarity is very desirable.
The link is: http://www.expresslanessignagestudy.com/
In this second phase we were able to produce online a survey that allows a limited amount of time to view potential signage. Participants are given a scenario prior to viewing the sign to understand the specific information they need to get from the sign. Participants also have the ability to replay each scenario to provide more of a "familiar driver scenario" . We can track the number of times a scenario is viewed to give us insight into whether all drivers can understand the sign or whether it is limited to those that see the sign multiple time.
Again, we are asking members and friends to please consider placing a link to this initial survey on their website, and also, if possible, to send out an e-blast to folks on their mailing lists. Also, please don't hesitate to take the survey yourself and pass it on to others in your organization.
Your help is greatly appreciated in making this survey and the follow on driving simulation a success!
Couldn't get the new one to work on my iPad. I answer the demographic questions on the first page, hit "next," and it reloads the same page. I'll try again on my PC if I can ever get it working again.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2016, 07:52:42 AM
Couldn't get the new one to work on my iPad. I answer the demographic questions on the first page, hit "next," and it reloads the same page. I'll try again on my PC if I can ever get it working again.
Same for me on my PC.
Just took the survey on my PC and had no issues.
I'll share the survey web site on the AARoads Facebook page and Twitter and will pin the post here to help spread the word.
Worked when I tried it in IE. Very strange.
I thought the use of the TOLL banner was required on signs marking traffic towards tolled facilities? I know there was a poster who said that "everyone" should know the Ohio Turnpike is a toll road, but not everyone does. On most interchanges, there is only an Interstate shield with an arrow pointing towards the ramp with no TOLL banner attached atop. Sometimes there are "Ohio Turnpike" shields but those are hard to read. And in other instances, it has "Ohio Turnpike" on a large green sign with no shield. It's very inconsistent.
And do Turnpikes mean toll roads? Not necessarily. There are plenty of roadways suffixed with "Turnpike" that are free - left over legacies from when they were private toll roads in the 19th century. And not everyone knows that Turnpikes (in the modern sense) are toll roads - including new citizens. My poor coworker who came from India earlier in the year got on the Turnpike because he saw the interstate shields sans the TOLL banner.
I got the survey to work on my PC (running Chrome) now that I have it back online. Weird that it wouldn't work on the other device.
As far as the legal tender issue goes, that's been discussed several times on this forum and it's been amply established that from the US government's point of view, there is no law requiring anyone to accept cash.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2016, 02:11:39 PM
I got the survey to work on my PC (running Chrome) now that I have it back online. Weird that it wouldn't work on the other device.
As far as the legal tender issue goes, that's been discussed several times on this forum and it's been amply established that from the US government's point of view, there is no law requiring anyone to accept cash.
Yeah, there is, for debts. You have not incurred a debt yet prior to a purchase and a condition to purchase could be some other form of payment, and that is perfectly legal (so you don't need to accept cash for purchases). If, say, someone tows your car, you haven't agreed on another form of payment and owe them the money, they have to take cash.
Most toll by plate programs do have a way of paying cash making this a non-issue. Florida a bunch of gas stations can take cash and apply it to your account. Sounds like Colorado allows you to mail it in. These options clearly meet the requirement of accepting US currency for a debt.
We're not having this stupid discussion again.
Quote from: UCFKnights on February 15, 2016, 04:11:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2016, 02:11:39 PM
I got the survey to work on my PC (running Chrome) now that I have it back online. Weird that it wouldn't work on the other device.
As far as the legal tender issue goes, that's been discussed several times on this forum and it's been amply established that from the US government's point of view, there is no law requiring anyone to accept cash.
Yeah, there is, for debts. You have not incurred a debt yet prior to a purchase and a condition to purchase could be some other form of payment, and that is perfectly legal (so you don't need to accept cash for purchases). If, say, someone tows your car, you haven't agreed on another form of payment and owe them the money, they have to take cash.
Most toll by plate programs do have a way of paying cash making this a non-issue. Florida a bunch of gas stations can take cash and apply it to your account. Sounds like Colorado allows you to mail it in. These options clearly meet the requirement of accepting US currency for a debt.
Opinion or fact? If fact, please point us to the court ruling stating it. If fact and you don't have anything to back it up (and/or unwilling to use the internet to locate such fact), then it's an opinion, and a wrong one at that.
Quote from: jakeroot link=topic=14961.msg2127303#msg2127303 date=1455733210
But why not just pay via mail later on? Why do youi]have[/i] to pay on-the-spot? I do not see any benefit to cash baskets (which are cumbersome, to say the least -- exact change only, no bills, no means of sliding a card, etc).
A cash basket is useless with any toll $1.00 or more. Unless the agency still issues tokens, of course.
Garden State Parkway still has coin baskets...and the toll is $1.50 at many plazas!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 17, 2016, 01:57:17 PM
Garden State Parkway still has coin baskets...and the toll is $1.50 at many plazas!
How long does it take to count out all those coins?
Quote from: jakeroot on February 17, 2016, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 17, 2016, 01:57:17 PM
Garden State Parkway still has coin baskets...and the toll is $1.50 at many plazas!
How long does it take to count out all those coins?
I would imagine the people that use it are regulars and toss the coins in the basket while still moving. They never wait for the 'Go' sign!
Since I finally did the survey, the only problem I noticed with the questions are the "What if" question after viewing the animation. If I'm travelling, I can usually view a certain segment of the sign and ignore the rest. I wouldn't need to concentrate on the entire sign. For example, if I have an EZ Pass and there's an EZ Pass price and non-EZ Pass price, I would ignore the non-EZ Pass price as it won't apply to me.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 17, 2016, 01:57:17 PM
Garden State Parkway still has coin baskets...and the toll is $1.50 at many plazas!
Does GSP still issue tokens? In the days before E-ZPass, I'd keep a roll in my car - even though I only travel the road once or twice a year.
I wish all EZ-Pass systems would be consistent.
When my EZ-Pass transponder began to fail, I had several different encounters. I was on the road for two weeks, so having a new transponder wasn't an option since I wasn't at home to have it shipped (the only option for the Ohio Turnpike, where I purchased mine).
* The Ohio Turnpike has barriers at their booths. When it didn't go up initially, I had to get a paper ticket. At the Eastgate at the Pennsylvania border, I was able to have my transponder manually read, which showed that I entered at the correct booth. But it's use was intermittent. They were polite and let me on my way without having to pay in cash - it was deducted out of my EZ-Pass account.
* The high speed lanes in Pennsylvania worked great. Because the transponder was failing, I went ahead and went through the high speed lanes, knowing that if it didn't work - my plates would be read and my EZ-Pass account would be billed, since the two are tied together. On one instance my transponder worked; the other time, it didn't and it was deducted from my EZ-Pass manually. No biggie.
* On the New York State Thruway, it was a different story. I was able to get on fine as there were no barriers and it didn't prompt me to get a ticket. The light was green so the transponder worked. But when I got off of an exit hours later, the transponder failed although the light was green. I'm not sure what was up, but when I pulled away from the booth (which was manned as it was a combination cash/EZ-Pass booth), an individual stepped out and waved his arms. Oops. I never received an item in my EZ-Pass statement or a bill, so I'm not sure if I was ever charged.
* On a bridge over I-278 in New York City, it was a nightmare. I was not aware I was on a toll bridge until after I was on the facility, and all I had was my debit/credit cards. It's 2016 - some tolled facilities have readers, right? Not these. The booths have barriers and the barrier did not raise with my transponder. Thinking that I could have them read the transponder manually, I handed it to the individual. He was not pleased and cursed. Hey - it's not my fault the transponder failed prematurely - so for TEN minutes, I had to wait while a customer service representative came over, filled out a paper form, used a handheld device to record some car information, filled out another paper form, and then handed me an envelope for me to mail in the payment within ten days.
I think NYC's systems were some of the first implemented, correct?
You always have a cash option. When you get the bill, I'm sure you are welcome to pay in cash.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 17, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Absolutely. Baloo just isn't keen on that because the E-470 Authority was late sending him a bill once.
You shouldn't need someone to remind you that you went through a tollbooth and didn't pay, unless of course you didn't intend to pay it at all until they noticed. Why wait for a bill? Go online, look up the toll agency, and find out how to send missed toll payments via mail.
Quote from: Zeffy on February 17, 2016, 10:52:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 17, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Absolutely. Baloo just isn't keen on that because the E-470 Authority was late sending him a bill once.
You shouldn't need someone to remind you that you went through a tollbooth and didn't pay, unless of course you didn't intend to pay it at all until they noticed. Why wait for a bill? Go online, look up the toll agency, and find out how to send missed toll payments via mail.
Why not wait for a bill?
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 17, 2016, 11:10:24 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on February 17, 2016, 10:52:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 17, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Absolutely. Baloo just isn't keen on that because the E-470 Authority was late sending him a bill once.
You shouldn't need someone to remind you that you went through a tollbooth and didn't pay, unless of course you didn't intend to pay it at all until they noticed. Why wait for a bill? Go online, look up the toll agency, and find out how to send missed toll payments via mail.
Why not wait for a bill?
In some cases, the charge is significantly higher if you wait for a bill. Virginia's HO/T lanes are the ones that come to mind immediately. They don't offer a "toll-by-plate" option and if you wait until they send you a bill, there's a $12.50
per trip surcharge (so, for example, if you drove up the I-95 lanes, then exited onto the Beltway and took its HO/T lanes to Tysons, then reversed the trip in the evening, didn't have an E-ZPass for any of those, and waited for a bill, as I understand it your invoice would include the tolls plus $50 in service charges at $12.50 times four trips, two trips each on I-95 and I-495).
Of course, in other cases you may never get a bill. I never got one from the Rickenbacker Causeway from a trip in 2011 where the signs weren't clear that they didn't take SunPass. I understand the Ontario 407 toll road may not bill many US residents. Question is, when do you roll the dice and wait for a bill and when do you take the initiative? I think my rule of thumb might be to decide based on whether there were signs offering a toll-by-plate option. If they offer that, I'd probably wait for a bill. If they didn't offer that, I'd probably assume there would be some sort of penalty and I'd look it up online.
.....that's assuming, of course, I were not a member of this forum. If I personally were faced with the scenario, I'd come here and ask whether I'd get socked with a penalty if I let the facility bill me!
Oh, of course. I thought we were talking about bills mailed as part of a toll-by-plate option, in which case it's unlikely many folks know what the charge is in advance.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 17, 2016, 11:10:24 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on February 17, 2016, 10:52:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 17, 2016, 07:31:43 PM
Absolutely. Baloo just isn't keen on that because the E-470 Authority was late sending him a bill once.
You shouldn't need someone to remind you that you went through a tollbooth and didn't pay, unless of course you didn't intend to pay it at all until they noticed. Why wait for a bill? Go online, look up the toll agency, and find out how to send missed toll payments via mail.
Why not wait for a bill?
Some don't send bills, instead offering you the ability to pay online.
USPS vending machines dispense them.
Personally I find the dollars easy enough to distinguish by feel. Anthony dollars I get the problem with, because they're ridged. But golden dollars? They don't feel like anything else unless I'm carrying some non-money tokens around. YMMV.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 18, 2016, 07:45:11 AM
In some cases, the charge is significantly higher if you wait for a bill. Virginia's HO/T lanes are the ones that come to mind immediately. They don't offer a "toll-by-plate" option and if you wait until they send you a bill, there's a $12.50 per trip surcharge (so, for example, if you drove up the I-95 lanes, then exited onto the Beltway and took its HO/T lanes to Tysons, then reversed the trip in the evening, didn't have an E-ZPass for any of those, and waited for a bill, as I understand it your invoice would include the tolls plus $50 in service charges at $12.50 times four trips, two trips each on I-95 and I-495).
IMO, that practice is reprehensible, and should be forbidden.
Much better to apply a
modest surcharge (25%, as suggested in the survey, or maybe as high as 50%).
Drivers using such lanes without a transponder should be encouraged to get one, not punished.
If they have the ability to send you a bill because you didn't have a transponder, why did they ever need to require you to have a transponder to begin with? That is where I find the penalty to be extortionate.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If they have the ability to send you a bill because you didn't have a transponder, why did they ever need to require you to have a transponder to begin with? That is where I find the penalty to be extortionate.
The prime advantage seems to be in areas with variable tolls. Express lanes with discounts for HOV's are good examples, because you can switch the transponder between HOV and TOLL, perhaps avoiding a higher toll if you have the right number of people.
Solo drivers do not seem to gain anything from transponders, other than perhaps the ability to use them in other states, should neighboring states adopt the same transponder tech.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If they have the ability to send you a bill because you didn't have a transponder, why did they ever need to require you to have a transponder to begin with? That is where I find the penalty to be extortionate.
Because a lot more manpower, time and money is spent to look up the license plate, get the information from that state's DMV, and mail out the invoice waiting for a check or credit card payment. 2nd & 3rd notices may be required, and the payment rate is generally under 90%. Plus, people that have a pass and prepay permit the agency to use that money for investing purposes.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 19, 2016, 06:24:54 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If they have the ability to send you a bill because you didn't have a transponder, why did they ever need to require you to have a transponder to begin with? That is where I find the penalty to be extortionate.
Because a lot more manpower, time and money is spent to look up the license plate, get the information from that state's DMV, and mail out the invoice waiting for a check or credit card payment. 2nd & 3rd notices may be required, and the payment rate is generally under 90%. Plus, people that have a pass and prepay permit the agency to use that money for investing purposes.
It takes a big chunk of cost out to remove the redundant parts from the front lines that accrue pensions.
The point about holding money to collect interest supports my point, IMO.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 08:40:25 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 19, 2016, 06:24:54 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:05:21 AM
If they have the ability to send you a bill because you didn't have a transponder, why did they ever need to require you to have a transponder to begin with? That is where I find the penalty to be extortionate.
Because a lot more manpower, time and money is spent to look up the license plate, get the information from that state's DMV, and mail out the invoice waiting for a check or credit card payment. 2nd & 3rd notices may be required, and the payment rate is generally under 90%. Plus, people that have a pass and prepay permit the agency to use that money for investing purposes.
It takes a big chunk of cost out to remove the redundant parts from the front lines that accrue pensions.
The point about holding money to collect interest supports my point, IMO.
If they had to mail invoices to everyone, you would probably find toll rates prohibitively expensive. Of the toll transactions today, much of it is automated, from the withdrawal from a debit/credit account to the toll transaction itself. The overwhelming majority of employees on an ETC system are used for processing the small number of vehicles going thru a toll plaza that don't have a transponder. Hundreds of additional employees would be needed if a system was all license-plate based. More employees = more costs, raising fares for everyone.
Compare it to London's congestion pricing system, which is fully automated via license plate readers. The cost is approximately $16 USD...if paid in advance or on that day, and if you have your tag number already registered for automatic withdrawals. But...if you take the inititive to pay the next day, there's already a 25% surcharge. If you wait for a bill, you have 2 weeks to pay it and the charge jumps to over $90! After 2 weeks, pay double. After 4 weeks, pay triple...nearly $275!!!
So, while you think the plenty of 25% is too high when billed upwards of a month later with another 30 days to pay, an existing fully automated license plate system charges over 500%.
Well, I just participated in the survey. To the extent that us roadgeeks take the survey in higher numbers than the general population, we may skew the results somewaht. I believe we are more in tune to these types of things than the average driver. But the goal of good signage is for the average driver, that they should know what to expect and not have a WTF moment as soon as they encounter these signs.
I usually pull it out and look at it. It's just faster when I have a lot of change.
Quote from: mrsman on February 21, 2016, 06:10:05 PM
Well, I just participated in the survey. To the extent that us roadgeeks take the survey in higher numbers than the general population, we may skew the results somewaht. I believe we are more in tune to these types of things than the average driver. But the goal of good signage is for the average driver, that they should know what to expect and not have a WTF moment as soon as they encounter these signs.
I noticed this survey was broadcast to the general public quite a bit more than the first round, so I think the results may be a little less skewed. I know the lead researcher on this and they are just starting to process the results. There will be a discussion on this at an upcoming TRB conference in May. I'll try and remember to take notes and share the findings after that.
Couldn't get to the site to answer the survey.
LG-TP260
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on May 04, 2018, 09:12:50 PM
Couldn't get to the site to answer the survey.
LG-TP260
You're responding to a thread that's been dormant for over two years, so you shouldn't be surprised the survey is gone...
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 04, 2018, 09:49:18 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on May 04, 2018, 09:12:50 PM
Couldn't get to the site to answer the survey.
LG-TP260
You're responding to a thread that's been dormant for over two years, so you shouldn't be surprised the survey is gone...
I got a "trending today" message on my phone for this topic, which is why I replied with that. I didn't bother to check the dates because of the notification. I apologize for the confusion and the bumping of this.
LG-TP260