Sometimes a sign will try to convey a message but do it poorly. Examples!
One really predominant thing I don't like is the use of "No" as an abbreviation for "North". This is bad because any reader is going to first want to interpret it as the word "no" and have to then realize its an abbreviation. That prolongs the time necessary for someone to process the text on the sign, which you don't want on a fast-moving freeway. Besides which, the easy and obvious solution is to just use "N" instead.
And on that note, it is important to remember that drivers will want to interpret "N", "S", "E", and "W" as short for the cardinal directions, and using them to stand for something else is thus foolish. Case in point: Exit 38 off I-95 in Connecticut, "Merritt and W Cross Pkwys". That would be great if we were talking about a West Cross Parkway, but we're not - it's the Wilbur Cross Parkway. Oops. :pan:
One of my old favorites which is now gone, sadly, was at the Beginning of the Hutchinson River Parkway from I-678. An exit which was signed merely as "Local Streets". Seriously. It was replaced a few years back at the same time NYSDOT replaced all the old signs on the Hutch in the Bronx with shiny new ones (signing the exit numbers in the Bronx for the first time, I may add. They used to only be implied). The sign there now reads a more accurate but less interesting "Exit 1 - Bruckner Blvd".
As an aside, highways in New York City are an absolute treasure trove of old dark button copy signs.
I'll let someone who's more from that part of the country exposit on "Indio - Other Desert Cities".
one example I can offhand is the approach to the tollbooths on the Bay Bridge. Not only are the cash only and EZ-Pass lanes sorted seemingly randomly, but there is enough of a curve on the road that one cannot tell which signs line up with which lanes, so there is much merging and weaving.
^^--- Don't know when your last visit to the Bay Bridge toll plaza but a couple of years ago, the FasTrak only lanes are now concentrated in the middle of the toll plaza. As you approach the toll plaza, if you're on I-80 you'll need to stay in the left lanes and if you're on I-580 you'll need to stay in the right lanes. The FasTrak only lanes are marked both on the pavement and road-side signs as far back as the MacArthur Maze. On all other bay area bridges, the FasTrak only lanes are always on the left side of the toll plaza.
Edit: I found this diagram showing the current configuration of the bay bridge toll plaza. (http://www.mtc.ca.gov/services/fastrak/June07/SF-Oakland_Bay-REV-8-07.pdf) Road-side signs advising FasTrak drivers to get into a specific lane appear over 1 mile before the toll plaza on both the 80 and 580 approaches. The first overhead signs appear about 3/4 of a mile from the toll plaza.
the problem with the lane striping is it is hidden by the massive amounts of vehicles! all you see is the overhead indicators in the distance, which, thanks to that mild S curve, are very difficult to line up with actual lanes. When you're on a section with only 3 lanes, crawling towards the tollbooths, you do not have a good idea which lanes split in two, and therefore no idea if the lane you are in will turn into an EZ Pass only lane. or (I don't think they've had these on the bay bridge in years) an Exact Coin Only lane.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 22, 2009, 10:40:19 PM
One really predominant thing I don't like is the use of "No" as an abbreviation for "North". This is bad because any reader is going to first want to interpret it as the word "no" and have to then realize its an abbreviation. That prolongs the time necessary for someone to process the text on the sign, which you don't want on a fast-moving freeway. Besides which, the easy and obvious solution is to just use "N" instead.
That's one that bugs me as well. Many freeway signs and illuminated street name signs on traffic signals in the Reno area use "So" as an abbreviation for "South". This non-standard abbreviation is annoying because it is used in two ways. Reno has a South Meadows Pkwy, where "South" is actually part of the street name (named for a part of town referred to as the "South Meadows"--it's an east/west road). "So" is also used as an indicator of position along the road, especially for South Virginia St (as opposed to North Virginia St), where "S" should be used and would be compliant with the MUTCD. Interestingly, "No" is not used in the same manner.
I definitely agree that the non-standard abbreviation takes a bit longer to comprehend. I still look at those signs sometimes and think to myself, "So....Virginia Street?"
Quotethe problem with the lane striping is it is hidden by the massive amounts of vehicles! all you see is the overhead indicators in the distance, which, thanks to that mild S curve, are very difficult to line up with actual lanes. When you're on a section with only 3 lanes, crawling towards the tollbooths, you do not have a good idea which lanes split in two, and therefore no idea if the lane you are in will turn into an EZ Pass only lane. or (I don't think they've had these on the bay bridge in years) an Exact Coin Only lane.
To get to the FasTrak only lanes you must get in the far left lane on the I-80 approach and the far right lane on the I-580 approach. This is pretty clear on the diagram I linked to in my last post. There are also signs posted 1 mile back from the toll plaza telling drivers what lane is the FasTrak only lane. Of course when traffic is heavy at the toll plaza making any lane changes is going to be challenging.
Quote from: Duke87One really predominant thing I don't like is the use of "No" as an abbreviation for "North". This is bad because any reader is going to first want to interpret it as the word "no" and have to then realize its an abbreviation. That prolongs the time necessary for someone to process the text on the sign, which you don't want on a fast-moving freeway. Besides which, the easy and obvious solution is to just use "N" instead.
When I think of, for example, "No. Camp Rd." I'm thinking "Northern Camp Road," not "North Camp Road." The same thing goes for "So."
Sometimes, a sign can have too much writing on it -- too many destinations are placed on the sign. At the most, four destinations should be listed -- and it should be in a large enough font to read from a distance.
This really isn't signage stupidy, per se, but I wished GDOT would have BGSs for surface arterial to freeway junctions. Sometimes, those small overhead signs aren't always clear or visible all of the time.
Be well,
Bryant
Does the Bay Bridge accept EZPass, or was agentsteel using the term generally and not specifically?
^^--- The only electronic toll collection device accepted in California is called "FasTrak". Cars equipped with FasTrak transponders can use all toll facilities in California (toll bridges in the S.F. Bay Area, toll roads in Orange County and express lanes in San Diego and Orange county).
I call everything "EZPass" because the only toll transponder I've ever had in my life was on a rental car on which I racked up $73 (!) doing a bunch of exits on and off the NJ Turnpike.
Money sure flies when you don't have to hand it out physically.
QuoteI call everything "EZPass" because the only toll transponder I've ever had in my life was on a rental car on which I racked up $73 (!) doing a bunch of exits on and off the NJ Turnpike.
For incurring $73 in tolls, I can think of a few choice words I would use instead of "EZPass" but I don't think any would be appropriate in this forum. :clap: :nod: :D
Quote from: Bryant5493 on August 26, 2009, 04:06:05 PM
Sometimes, a sign can have too much writing on it -- too many destinations are placed on the sign. At the most, four destinations should be listed -- and it should be in a large enough font to read from a distance.
MUTCD Guidance states no more than two destinations or street names should be used on a freeway sign, and should not use more than three lines of copy in the legend ("legend" may include symbols, route markers & cardinal directions, arrows, exit instructions). The guidance says to use only one destination or street name when more than one sign is on the same support structure.
With all that said, it's only guidance so there's bound to be multiple exceptions. Too much information can be a drawback, is a lot to process for a driver (especially one unfamiliar with the area), and really should be avoided in the interest of good signage.
Quoteno more than two destinations or street names should be used on a freeway sign
I think the sign, that I've personally seen (a lot), that takes the cake for information overload is the overhead BGS exiting the PA-Turnpike after the toll booths at the split for I-70 West, or US 119 / Toll 66.
Someone may have an actual picture of it, but this should like to street view.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=New+Stanton,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.71116,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=40.222206,-79.601955&spn=0.047186,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=40.222144,-79.601829&panoid=omEmrrnG5z5wTsHLRN_8cQ&cbp=12,167.75,,0,-12.62 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=New+Stanton,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.71116,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=40.222206,-79.601955&spn=0.047186,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=40.222144,-79.601829&panoid=omEmrrnG5z5wTsHLRN_8cQ&cbp=12,167.75,,0,-12.62)
Quote from: roadfroMUTCD Guidance states no more than two destinations or street names should be used on a freeway sign, and should not use more than three lines of copy in the legend ("legend" may include symbols, route markers & cardinal directions, arrows, exit instructions). The guidance says to use only one destination or street name when more than one sign is on the same support structure.
With all that said, it's only guidance so there's bound to be multiple exceptions. Too much information can be a drawback, is a lot to process for a driver (especially one unfamiliar with the area), and really should be avoided in the interest of good signage.
Yeah, that's a good guidance. It's better to break up destinations on several advance signs.
Quote from: Mr_NorthsideI think the sign, that I've personally seen (a lot), that takes the cake for information overload is the overhead BGS exiting the PA-Turnpike after the toll booths at the split for I-70 West, or US 119 / Toll 66.
Someone may have an actual picture of it, but this should like to street view.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=New+Stanton,+PA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.71116,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=40.222206,-79.601955&spn=0.047186,0.077162&z=14&layer=c&cbll=40.222144,-79.601829&panoid=omEmrrnG5z5wTsHLRN_8cQ&cbp=12,167.75,,0,-12.62
Yeah, that does take the cake.
Be well,
Bryant
Stating the obvious:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg199.imageshack.us%2Fimg199%2F7166%2Fdscn5488.jpg&hash=bd3a38b6dec1df4891dba02c12dff988799f87ec)
^^ Well, some folks don't know to stop on red, you know -- especially when turning right. :D
Be well,
Bryant
I've always thought this gantry (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=washington+dc&sll=37.066608,-76.306866&sspn=0.012345,0.01929&ie=UTF8&ll=38.883914,-77.020168&spn=0,359.993134&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.882318,-77.018732&panoid=0hUI4nPUzcbE34ASXXUheA&cbp=12,86.08,,0,-0.63) and a few of the other ones along that stretch of I-395 in D.C.really took the cake for information overload.
Or maybe this one (http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4964/kdk0191.jpg) on US-158 on the Outer Banks in N.C. just because of the sheer volume of text.
One on I-690 in Syracuse (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.052148,-76.126703&spn=0,359.994716&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.052522,-76.124931&panoid=-T8_0B5bM3SJYQxN1qXFyw&cbp=12,236.52,,0,-20.95) doesn't have information overload, but it's HUGE!
I get kind of a kick out of this one. There isn't quite enough room to fit everything on the overhead truss, so they tack on a little cantilever over the oncoming lanes to add one more sign:
http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.105155,-84.529624&spn=0,359.960947&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.105219,-84.529711&panoid=N34nKetbUaI3__7HNRn79A&cbp=12,128.21,,0,-5.68 (http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.105155,-84.529624&spn=0,359.960947&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.105219,-84.529711&panoid=N34nKetbUaI3__7HNRn79A&cbp=12,128.21,,0,-5.68)
I'd call this a case of signage underkill...it's actually kinda cute:
http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.143075,-84.535546&spn=0,359.960947&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.143002,-84.535493&panoid=SRFUw7jUJY8nA-k6Jg7GnQ&cbp=12,337.72,,0,-3.9 (http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.143075,-84.535546&spn=0,359.960947&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.143002,-84.535493&panoid=SRFUw7jUJY8nA-k6Jg7GnQ&cbp=12,337.72,,0,-3.9)
The sign on the right is hogging all the arrows:
http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.105388,-84.496429&spn=0,359.980474&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.105451,-84.496318&panoid=0clURNRh6Ugt2E2G1Uf7HA&cbp=12,218.69,,0,-4.2 (http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.105388,-84.496429&spn=0,359.980474&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.105451,-84.496318&panoid=0clURNRh6Ugt2E2G1Uf7HA&cbp=12,218.69,,0,-4.2)
^^^ Is underkill even a word?
It's a word if I say it is. :)
Speaking of lines of copy, out-of-towners had better read this sign carefully, or they'll miss their exit. :-D
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Francisco,+CA&sll=35.101934,-83.056641&sspn=53.307516,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=37.640976,-122.405993&spn=0.001444,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.640976,-122.405991&panoid=r6QxdKZz3AER0fmdL59L-A&cbp=12,185.17,,0,3.2 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=San+Francisco,+CA&sll=35.101934,-83.056641&sspn=53.307516,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=37.640976,-122.405993&spn=0.001444,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.640976,-122.405991&panoid=r6QxdKZz3AER0fmdL59L-A&cbp=12,185.17,,0,3.2)
Talk about too much information...
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images120/ca-120_eb_exit_006_03.jpg)
2 Guide Signs
3 California route shields (two 2-digit, one 3-digit)
6 Control Cities (3 on each sign)
All for two lanes of traffic as CA-120 approaches the CA-99 interchange.
Gee, I wonder why there are so many skid marks on the pavement... :-o
That's California and their way of signing. They only light the one height on all of their signs.
Utah does the whole So./No. thing all the time and I really wonder why. And for South and North too, not southern and northern. No. is the international abbreviation for "number" and when you see "No. Temple" on a sign you wonder what's going on (at least if you're not acquainted with the quirks of UDOT signing)
Quote from: myosh_tino on September 17, 2009, 03:18:47 PM
Talk about too much information...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westcoastroads.com%2Fcalifornia%2Fimages101%2Fca-120_eb_exit_006_03.jpg&hash=5d6d0418c37c6deef9daecd70d8d6f556fe49264)
2 Guide Signs
3 California route shields (two 2-digit, one 3-digit)
6 Control Cities (3 on each sign)
They could easily remove Los Angeles and either Yosemite or Sonora from those signs to clear up the legend. Also, they're using a fairly wide gantry, so I don't see why they couldn't have used slightly wider signs so that everything wasn't so cramped.
Through the magic of Photoshop...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2Fca120-99.jpg&hash=a85e3b8aa36403078b2396e0fbe06471c1f0f4d1)
I think the reason for the extra wide sign bridge is because CA-120 used to be a "Super-2" (2-lane limited access road) that ran in the current eastbound lanes. The current left shoulder was probably the old westbound lane.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg11.imageshack.us%2Fimg11%2F6500%2Fdscn5772p.jpg&hash=cdd4a3aa95e01a80e1e6fbc8dd47d377d39e8c78)
Yeah, I get what it's supposed to mean, but taken literally it sounds like town parks are dangerous and motorists should watch out for them. :spin:
Quote from: Duke87Stating the obvious:
In that situation, perhaps. However, years ago in south Brooklyn NY (this may still be true), traffic signals were only placed on some streets every five blocks. At the corners with no traffic signals, signs said STOP HERE ON RED SIGNAL, meaning: Look down the street to the closest traffic signal and stop if it's red.
One of the stupidest things I've seen was when we were leaving Washington, D.C. I wanted to clinch DC-295 on the way out. So there's this sign on unsigned I-695:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F4c%2FDC-295_from_I-295.jpg%2F800px-DC-295_from_I-295.jpg&hash=8c4652348352667c8b3eaef3702235e9b251b6eb)
Take a good look at that, because that's the last mention of DC-295. None of the signs in the remaining mile between this gantry and the exit say a damn thing about DC-295. We therefore ended up getting to see the best of Anacostia. It was at that point we decided to give up on DC-295 and hightail it back to the Beltway on 395.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2009, 07:22:04 PM
One of the stupidest things I've seen was when we were leaving Washington, D.C. I wanted to clinch DC-295 on the way out. So there's this sign on unsigned I-695. Take a good look at that, because that's the last mention of DC-295. None of the signs in the remaining mile between this gantry and the exit say a damn thing about DC-295. We therefore ended up getting to see the best of Anacostia. It was at that point we decided to give up on DC-295 and hightail it back to the Beltway on 395.
If you just take the exit (basically a forced exit from a stub), you turn right, cross the bridge, and the entrance to DC 295 (which IS signed with a shield) is on the left. Now, it's entirely possible there's only one sign for DC 295 and it's right there at the exit, so if you're not prepared you could pass it by.
Quote from: AlpsROADS on September 20, 2009, 08:17:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2009, 07:22:04 PM
One of the stupidest things I've seen was when we were leaving Washington, D.C. I wanted to clinch DC-295 on the way out. So there's this sign on unsigned I-695. Take a good look at that, because that's the last mention of DC-295. None of the signs in the remaining mile between this gantry and the exit say a damn thing about DC-295. We therefore ended up getting to see the best of Anacostia. It was at that point we decided to give up on DC-295 and hightail it back to the Beltway on 395.
If you just take the exit (basically a forced exit from a stub), you turn right, cross the bridge, and the entrance to DC 295 (which IS signed with a shield) is on the left. Now, it's entirely possible there's only one sign for DC 295 and it's right there at the exit, so if you're not prepared you could pass it by.
Right, well, my mom was driving, and she was looking for DC 295. We see it here, I snap the picture, and then all the signs from there on out just say "Pennsylvania Avenue". She didn't want to take the exit if it didn't have the DC 295 sign there.
Doesn't the MUTCD say somewhere that the legend has to be the same on all advance and exit direction signage?
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2009, 05:30:22 PM
Doesn't the MUTCD say somewhere that the legend has to be the same on all advance and exit direction signage?
I believe it's in a guidance or support statement, and not a required standard.
A couple notes:
- That exit to the left ("TO DC 295 NORTH") has only one direction to go when you get to Pennsylvania Ave...outbound on the Sousa Bridge. And there are trailblazers to DC 295 NORTH along outbound Pennsylvania Ave, as Steve alluded to.
- Unless you'd gotten it previously, using that route to "clinch DC 295" would've been a moot point or required a U-turn elsewhere, because of missing connections between DC 295 and I-295, as well as missing connections between DC 295 and Pennsylvania Ave. To clinched the DC 295 part between PA Ave and I-295, you'd have to come up from the south along I-295 (or enter from Howard Rd/Firth Stirling Ave), come from the north along DC 295, or enter coming along PA Ave from the east.
Along the lines of gantry overkill, check out this doozie outside of Colorado Springs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fr-dub.us%2Foops%2Floaded.jpg&hash=0d3787d464f85d835eee2eee31d806eee8c42028)
Worse, during recent construction, there was a portable VMS on the left side of the road warning of impending doom. Why the main VMS wasn't used is anyone's guess.
And, wanna go swimming?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fr-dub.us%2Foops%2Fr20.jpg&hash=7e46b71adf90ff6c1d4cd3038d5db597ff3a2051)
The font on that overhead sign is too small! I thought the MUTCD had a minimum font size for signs! :pan:
And no, I don't want to go swimming there. :no:
:-D A clothed pedestrian sign! Poor things walk everywhere (and sit in wheelchairs) nude, but have to wear clothes to be swept away in a flood.
Quote from: roadfro on September 21, 2009, 10:41:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2009, 05:30:22 PM
Doesn't the MUTCD say somewhere that the legend has to be the same on all advance and exit direction signage?
I believe it's in a guidance or support statement, and not a required standard.
It is, in fact, a SHALL condition. Section 2E.27 of the 2003 edition states "Consistent destination messages shall be displayed on these signs," referring to Advance Guide and Exit Direction signs.
QuoteA clothed pedestrian sign! Poor things walk everywhere (and sit in wheelchairs) nude, but have to wear clothes to be swept away in a flood.
Well, at least its daughter is allowed to wear a dress when walking to school! And its wife can wear clothes when guarding the bathroom!
HA! :-D :-D :-D