I know how I would interpret this. How the ticket-writers interpret it is a different matter. From WTOP radio in DC: http://bit.ly/1MdHNcL
The question is about the sign regulating parking in this picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2Fb3f9d57c484984f5c8b6db8c33a17a1c_zpsxc66rnjl.jpg&hash=81aa788b7882acfe33b273f33bbfaa7d08af47f8)
I would say that you aren't allowed to park from 9 am to 5 pm on any day unless it's a Sunday.
Before looking at the link, I came up with what the majority came up with. How did DDOT ticket officer A. Mattox come up with whatever the hell they came up with?!?!?
"Anytime" should be removed from the sign to help make it less confusing...
I also thought there was a rule against two unrelated signs on the same post.
Quote from: PurdueBill on March 28, 2015, 01:37:47 PM
Before looking at the link, I came up with what the majority came up with. How did DDOT ticket officer A. Mattox come up with whatever the hell they came up with?!?!?
"Anytime" should be removed from the sign to help make it less confusing...
I also came up with what the majority said.
If the idea is to say parking is allowed only during those hours and only on Sunday, it should be like the other sign shown in the article. Given how narrow that street is, it's certainly plausible to ban parking. DC often allows parking near churches on Sundays in places where it isn't normally allowed, but the signs are usually a lot clearer than this one.
"Except" should be written above the time period and have the word "and" between the time period and "Sundays".
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 28, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
I would say that you aren't allowed to park from 9 am to 5 pm on any day unless it's a Sunday.
That's my interpretation as well.
Something like this might be easier to understand
(https://www.lysator.liu.se/~riiga/Bilder/Amerikanska/Parkeringsexempel-04.png)
I would interpret "NO PARKING/ANYTIME/9AM-5PM/EXCEPT SUNDAYS" as saying a person is not allowed to park at any time between 9 AM and 5 PM on Monday through Saturday.
So, basically:
Parking is allowed all day Sunday, but only 5 PM to 9 AM the rest of the week.
Quote from: riiga on March 28, 2015, 02:17:37 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 28, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
I would say that you aren't allowed to park from 9 am to 5 pm on any day unless it's a Sunday.
That's my interpretation as well.
Something like this might be easier to understand
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24401393/Amerikanska/Parkeringsexempel-04.png)
Based on the width of that lane, that's not what it should be though. Why no parking during a workday, but allowing parking during rush hours?
"No parking anytime except 9am-5pm Sunday" should be what is posted.
Or, "No parking 9 AM-5 PM Monday-Saturday"
That lane is too narrow to have cars parked. It should say, "No Parking Monday to Saturday. Sunday 9AM-5PM OK."
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhEKpPmu.png&hash=234da5c6e95d02198f3f2cb2ddccbb66030feb20)
MON-SAT is probably confusing since people will park before 9 AM and after 5 PM.
Quote from: riiga on March 28, 2015, 02:17:37 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 28, 2015, 01:36:52 PM
I would say that you aren't allowed to park from 9 am to 5 pm on any day unless it's a Sunday.
That's my interpretation as well.
Something like this might be easier to understand
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24401393/Amerikanska/Parkeringsexempel-04.png)
That's pretty close to how it would be signed in Chicago, but it would be all one sign instead of modular parts.
The more I think about the sign shown in the first post, the more I think the word "anytime" is problematic when it's coupled with a time range as it is on that sign. It's potentially ambiguous given that in most places I've ever been, "anytime" normally means "ever" or "at all"–"No Parking or Standing Anytime" is common on fire lanes, for example, to indicate you're never allowed to do either.
If you want to ban parking between 9 AM and 5 PM, all the sign has to say is "No Parking 9 AM—5 PM." To make an exception for Sunday, you can add "Except Sundays." That sign would imply parking is allowed outside those hours. If instead you want to allow parking ONLY between 9 AM and 5 PM on Sunday, and on no other day, the sign can say "No Parking Anytime Except 9 AM—5 PM Sundays."
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on March 28, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
That lane is too narrow to have cars parked. It should say, "No Parking Monday to Saturday. Sunday 9AM-5PM OK."
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhEKpPmu.png&hash=234da5c6e95d02198f3f2cb2ddccbb66030feb20)
MON-SAT is probably confusing since people will park before 9 AM and after 5 PM.
This doesn't work because it doesn't mention Sunday from midnight-9am, and 5pm-midnight.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
If you want to ban parking between 9 AM and 5 PM, all the sign has to say is "No Parking 9 AM—5 PM." To make an exception for Sunday, you can add "Except Sundays." That sign would imply parking is allowed outside those hours. If instead you want to allow parking ONLY between 9 AM and 5 PM on Sunday, and on no other day, the sign can say "No Parking Anytime Except 9 AM—5 PM Sundays."
There is no parking permitted at all during the weekdays. That's the problem with the current sign: people believe parking is permitted before 9 and after 5, but it's not.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
....
Did you read the article linked in the first post? Part of the problem is that there is disagreement over what it means. You agree with DC ticket-writer A. Mattox, but almost everyone else interprets it differently.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
....
Did you read the article linked in the first post? Part of the problem is that there is disagreement over what it means. You agree with DC ticket-writer A. Mattox, but almost everyone else interprets it differently.
I think everyone here agrees that the sign is poorly written and can be interpreted either way, but it's clearly
intended to be no parking anytime except Sunday 9am-5pm. No way in hell parking would be allowed there on weekdays with how narrow that street is.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on March 29, 2015, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
....
Did you read the article linked in the first post? Part of the problem is that there is disagreement over what it means. You agree with DC ticket-writer A. Mattox, but almost everyone else interprets it differently.
I think everyone here agrees that the sign is poorly written and can be interpreted either way, but it's clearly intended to be no parking anytime except Sunday 9am-5pm. No way in hell parking would be allowed there on weekdays with how narrow that street is.
I agree with that comment about how narrow the lane is. It's consistent with practice around the District of making exceptions to parking rules on Sunday for streets near churches, although they often go too far (double-parking, and blocking residents into parallel parking spots from which they then cannot leave, is unfortunately tolerated even though it's explicitly illegal).
That said, I think the sign shouldn't be enforceable due to its lack of clarity, despite its intent.
Pertaining to the discussion on whether or not the lane is too narrow to have cars parked on it...
If anything, narrow roads contribute to slower speeds, since traffic has to be decently courteous to proceed.
EDIT: Wanted to add that I like the idea of narrow lanes as long as the road isn't a major arterial.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwigleyandassociates.com%2Falbums%2Fukspring2006%2FIMG_1471.jpg&hash=eb807900d0fd7a4e71c912c3e5ac380844048509)
Quote from: KEK Inc. on March 29, 2015, 05:08:28 PM
That said, I think the sign shouldn't be enforceable due to its lack of clarity, despite its intent.
I'd like to know how DC's other ticket-writers have interpreted the sign. The story doesn't say.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
....
Did you read the article linked in the first post? Part of the problem is that there is disagreement over what it means. You agree with DC ticket-writer A. Mattox, but almost everyone else interprets it differently.
That doesn't mean everyone else is right. As I and others have mentioned, the lane is too narrow for parking, which makes it fairly clear parking shouldn't normally be occurring here (I would debate why they even allow it on Sundays, but they do) . And this is just one sign. Are others on the street worded the same?
Heck, if I dare bring up my Trenton roundabout signage issue, it doesn't matter what is signed...it matters what is permitted. And in this case, while the majority may say parking is permitted, the officer is abiding by what the rule legally is for parking on the road.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 06:41:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
Most of you are not getting it. Parking is ONLY permitted Sundays from 9am to 5pm.
....
Did you read the article linked in the first post? Part of the problem is that there is disagreement over what it means. You agree with DC ticket-writer A. Mattox, but almost everyone else interprets it differently.
That doesn't mean everyone else is right. As I and others have mentioned, the lane is too narrow for parking, which makes it fairly clear parking shouldn't normally be occurring here (I would debate why they even allow it on Sundays, but they do) . And this is just one sign. Are others on the street worded the same?
Heck, if I dare bring up my Trenton roundabout signage issue, it doesn't matter what is signed...it matters what is permitted. And in this case, while the majority may say parking is permitted, the officer is abiding by what the rule legally is for parking on the road.
The officer is abiding by what he or she understands is the legal rule for parking on the road. The signage should be clear.
I think a cop knows the rule without going by the signage. They typically are pretty familiar with their jurisdictions. After all, they know the violation numbers by heart usually, which certainly aren't displayed on any signage.
Quote from: US81 on March 29, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
The officer is abiding by what he or she understands is the legal rule for parking on the road. The signage should be clear.
To clarify: the signage should be clear to the driving public. This is an example of a sign that is not clear (except perhaps to law enforcement) and should be emended.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 29, 2015, 10:22:39 PM
I think a cop knows the rule without going by the signage. They typically are pretty familiar with their jurisdictions. After all, they know the violation numbers by heart usually, which certainly aren't displayed on any signage.
Don't EVER make that assumption as to DC ticket-writers. There are loads of stories in the local media about invalid tickets being written because the cop made up his own interpretation of the law. There was one recently about a ticket-writer who wrote over 100 invalid parking tickets in a single day. Then there was the one when the District abolished license plate decals in favor of window stickers, but the ticket-writers all started writing tickets to people who had outdated license plate stickers despite those cars having current window stickers.
I think US81 and KEK Inc. ultimately have it right. Note the other sign shown at the end of the article linked in the first post. It's also posted in DC and it says "No Parking Except Sundays 9:30 AM—2:00 PM." That sign is perfectly clear. No reason to have inconsistent wording around the city. Saying "the road is narrow" doesn't necessarily work because there are a number of DC streets that are too narrow for the parking that's allowed, but it's nevertheless allowed.
Many parking rules are posted with "Except Sundays" for one main reason: the parking enforcement people don't work on Sundays. Therefore, any regulation on the sign (along with its ambiguities) is essentially irrelevant that day. That is always my first assumption when seeing those words.
"No parking anytime" is usually reserved for places where parking poses an obvious operational or safety threats, like a fire zone, crosswalk, tight corner, etc. I agree that it should not be used when it doesn't mean "no parking ever."
I also agree that it should never be assumed that the person writing the ticket knew the rule or read the sign or used common sense. It's much less rare than it should be that people get meter violation tickets with time on the meter and the like. It's not for nothing that there are significant amounts of personnel devoted to hearing parking violation appeals.
In any case, it could be worse (apologies for the repost, but it seemed relevant):
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2950/15389556762_fcf92496cb.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/93617544@N08/15389556762/)
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 30, 2015, 08:43:35 AM
....
I also agree that it should never be assumed that the person writing the ticket knew the rule or read the sign or used common sense. ....
Absolutely true. The following are all examples of that, and they underscore why I'm cynical about DC traffic enforcement even though I've only gotten one DC parking ticket (back in 1990 or 1991).
Last month there was a story about how DC's ticket-writers didn't know the rules applicable to certain parking meters that will at some point be (but are not yet!) restricted for use by vehicles with handicapped permits: http://wtop.com/ticketbuster/2015/02/red-top-meters-confuse-ticket-writers/
Then there were the ones where there was no sign prohibiting rush-hour parking, but a ticket was written anyway (in the first case, a sign with the appropriate prohibition was later posted):
http://wtop.com/news/2014/06/conflicting-parking-signs-in-dc-sorry-youre-still-guilty-videos/
http://wtop.com/ticketbuster/2014/05/ticketbuster-ddot-issues-incorrect-rush-hour-ticket-stands-by-decision/
Some people got tickets for things that weren't against the law in the District (warning, a video may play automatically):
http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/2015/02/16/tickets-inspection-call-for-action/23514025/
http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/2015/02/12/dc-parking-tickets-wrongly-illegal-refunds-bridge-dmv/23306697/
Then you had the people who live on a block where it's illegal to park on the south side except on street-cleaning days, so they parked there on street-cleaning day and were given $100 tickets: http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-on-foot/2012/03/street-sweeping-season-begins-with-a-block-full-of-bogus-100-tickets-14708.html
Last year on Memorial Day several hundred people got tickets (and some were towed) for not paying the meters (on the holiday) near Nationals Park. The tickets were theoretically correct–the intent is to have the meters in the ballpark district be enforced on holidays when the Nats are at home–but there was a not-so-small problem: Normally in DC you don't have to pay the meters on a holiday and no signs advised there was an exception in this area. Therefore, for Independence Day the city announced the meters near the ballpark would not be enforced because the signs weren't clear. I paid the meter anyway that day (and did again on January 1 for the Winter Classic) using the Parkmobile app. The app didn't charge me a meter fee but did charge a 45¢ transaction fee. I figured I was happy to pay 45¢ for some level of security in case an overzealous meter maid was issuing tickets. The signs still hadn't been changed when I drove through the ballpark district last week.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 30, 2015, 08:43:35 AM
Many parking rules are posted with "Except Sundays" for one main reason: the parking enforcement people don't work on Sundays. Therefore, any regulation on the sign (along with its ambiguities) is essentially irrelevant that day. That is always my first assumption when seeing those words.
In Philadelphia at least, "Except Sundays" on any parking sign means "you can park here on Sundays for as long as you want for free" (that last bit is relevant only if this is at a parking meter) probably for the reason you mention, so I'm inclined to completely ignore any sign with that phrase on it regardless of what else may be on it before or after.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 30, 2015, 08:43:35 AM
Many parking rules are posted with "Except Sundays" for one main reason: the parking enforcement people don't work on Sundays. Therefore, any regulation on the sign (along with its ambiguities) is essentially irrelevant that day. That is always my first assumption when seeing those words.
"No parking anytime" is usually reserved for places where parking poses an obvious operational or safety threats, like a fire zone, crosswalk, tight corner, etc. I agree that it should not be used when it doesn't mean "no parking ever."
I also agree that it should never be assumed that the person writing the ticket knew the rule or read the sign or used common sense. It's much less rare than it should be that people get meter violation tickets with time on the meter and the like. It's not for nothing that there are significant amounts of personnel devoted to hearing parking violation appeals.
In any case, it could be worse (apologies for the repost, but it seemed relevant):
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2950/15389556762_fcf92496cb.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/93617544@N08/15389556762/)
I thought I'd taken a pic in Denver last week of an unattended "all other times" sign but didn't. Fortunately street view has it (http://goo.gl/maps/qkb6F). What are the other times?
To boot, I didn't see the setup just downstream--NO PARKING ANY TIME to the left, PASSENGER LOADING ONLY ALL OTHER TIMES to the right! How did I miss it? (http://goo.gl/maps/1s8Pf)
Bumping this thread because a follow-up story is the lead item on WTOP tonight: DC admits Sunday parking sign is wrong (http://wtop.com/dc/2015/04/d-c-admits-sunday-parking-sign-wrong/)
It's to be replaced with a sign saying "No Parking Except Sundays 9:00 AM—5:00 PM"