I recently saw in a sign book a special night speed limit sign, it was all black with white lettering saying "night xxx" (the x's below night being the speed limit number) are these in use today? If so where? I've never seen them before.
All non-interstate state highways in Montana (70/65 night, 60/55 truck night), some of the unlit streets in Tucson AZ for starters
They were in use in Texas until 2011 almost everywhere the speed limit was above 65. The statutory default speed limit was 70 and 65 at night, with higher limits applying only during daytime. In 2011 all Texas night speed limits were banned by statute. Wikipedia has a photo of a sign arrangement that was very common until a few years ago, showing the default speed limit of 70 and 65 at night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Texas_speed_limit_70_65.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Texas_speed_limit_70_65.JPG)
The only place I know of that has night speed limits now is Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge, where the speed limit is 45/night 35 due to open range conditions and wildlife frequently occupying the roadway.
http://goo.gl/maps/MvtgD (http://goo.gl/maps/MvtgD)
US 550 has reduced night speed limits, in an area with frequent wildlife crossings south of Montrose CO.
I'm in two minds about night limits as on the one hand it's dark but on the other there's less traffic around so you should be able to floor it.
I believe the Overseas Highway has a night speed limit through the key deer habitat.
Quote from: Truvelo on April 04, 2015, 08:50:48 AM
I'm in two minds about night limits as on the one hand it's dark but on the other there's less traffic around so you should be able to floor it.
Then you clearly forgot the part in Drivers Ed that states you should never drive faster than what your headlights permit you to see. The overall driving guideline is that you should drive slower at night, not faster.
With modern vehicles and their ability to cast light, especially with high beams, Night Speed Limits are a poor idea, just like Truck Speed Limits.
Quote from: TEG24601 on April 04, 2015, 01:21:40 PM
With modern vehicles and their ability to cast light, especially with high beams, Night Speed Limits are a poor idea, just like Truck Speed Limits.
Have you ever driven in heavily wooded areas with large deer populations? Deer running suddenly into the road are a very good reason for lower night speed limits in some places. Not everywhere, mind you, and I'd certainly agree with your statement if you'd phrased it in terms of blanket night speed limits being unnecessary. But particular circumstances can and do make them appropriate in some places.
The far west states never had them.
iPhone
I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins? Sunset? A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise? What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is? What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?
These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 04, 2015, 06:24:08 PM
I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins? Sunset? A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise? What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is? What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?
These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.
The ones I saw on US 550 south of Montrose CO specify that the 55mph night limit applies 5pm-7am from September to May (the day limit is 60mph). Not sure what happens the other three months, like July when I was there, though obviously "night" is shorter.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 04, 2015, 05:58:25 PM
The far west states never had them.
iPhone
Utah did prior to 1974. They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
Quote from: oscar on April 04, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
The ones I saw on US 550 south of Montrose CO specify that the 55mph night limit applies 5pm-7am from September to May (the day limit is 60mph). Not sure what happens the other three months, like July when I was there, though obviously "night" is shorter.
There were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 04, 2015, 06:24:08 PM
I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins? Sunset? A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise? What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is? What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?
These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.
This is exactly the situation I found myself in when I got my first speeding ticket, in Wheeler County, TX. The sun was mostly down but it was still light out.
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.
Saw them in Jackson Hole, WY where there were a lot of elk. Had one enter the road on the other side as we were driving at night, so I think the night speed limits are reasonable in that situation.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 04, 2015, 05:54:33 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on April 04, 2015, 01:21:40 PM
With modern vehicles and their ability to cast light, especially with high beams, Night Speed Limits are a poor idea, just like Truck Speed Limits.
Have you ever driven in heavily wooded areas with large deer populations? Deer running suddenly into the road are a very good reason for lower night speed limits in some places. Not everywhere, mind you, and I'd certainly agree with your statement if you'd phrased it in terms of blanket night speed limits being unnecessary. But particular circumstances can and do make them appropriate in some places.
I'd say in a state like Montana, where 95% of rural two lane roads have 70 MPH/65 night speed limits, the night limit is appropriate. So much of the reason that those 70 MPH speed limits are safe and could probably even be considerably faster is because Montana is Big Sky Country, and sight lines are generally significantly further (usually >1/2 mile) than even modern high beams can shine. I get claustrophobic when I drive out east (or in the pacific northwest)- I find your 50/55 MPH speed limits on two lane roads fast because the visibility is so limited compared to what I am used to.
The wildlife argument holds water out here too, even outside of wooded areas. Deer blend in very well with brush, and tend to hang out in the middle of the road at night for some reason.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 04, 2015, 06:24:08 PM
I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins? Sunset? A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise? What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is? What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?
These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.
In Texas, it's defined in state transportation code.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/TN/htm/TN.541.htm
Quote
Sec. 541.401. MISCELLANEOUS TERMS. In this subtitle:
(1) "Daytime" means the period beginning one-half hour before sunrise and ending one-half hour after sunset.
(5) "Nighttime" means the period beginning one-half hour after sunset and ending one-half hour before sunrise.
Presumably based on the official sunrise/sunset times.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 04, 2015, 05:58:25 PM
The far west states never had them.
iPhone
Utah did prior to 1974. They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
Quote from: oscar on April 04, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
The ones I saw on US 550 south of Montrose CO specify that the 55mph night limit applies 5pm-7am from September to May (the day limit is 60mph). Not sure what happens the other three months, like July when I was there, though obviously "night" is shorter.
There were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Utah isn't far west. I'm talking about Washington, Oregon and California. Idaho had them until recently, if I recall.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.
Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 05, 2015, 06:15:58 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 04, 2015, 05:58:25 PM
The far west states never had them.
iPhone
Utah did prior to 1974. They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
Quote from: oscar on April 04, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
The ones I saw on US 550 south of Montrose CO specify that the 55mph night limit applies 5pm-7am from September to May (the day limit is 60mph). Not sure what happens the other three months, like July when I was there, though obviously "night" is shorter.
There were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Utah isn't far west. I'm talking about Washington, Oregon and California. Idaho had them until recently, if I recall.
Nope
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 12:08:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.
Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.
It's clearly racism. White is used for the nice higher daytime speed limit everyone likes and black is used for the lower nighttime speed limit that annoys people. Randy Marsh would be proud. :bigass:
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PMThere were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Do you happen to know when this determination was made? I went to Colorado on a roadtrip (US 160 corridor mostly from Walsenburg to Cortez, with a loop that included the Million Dollar Highway length of US 550) over Labor Day weekend in 2012, and found these wildlife speed limit signs in extensive use. When I did some Web research afterward (not just on these signs, but also the wilfully obscure MEPDG signs), I found a CDOT press release touting them.
Quote from: corco on April 04, 2015, 10:59:50 PMI find your 50/55 MPH speed limits on two lane roads fast because the visibility is so limited compared to what I am used to.
I remember driving US 501 between Lynchburg, Virginia and Roxboro, NC: 55 limit through rolling Piedmont hills. The cross-section was definitely dated, with narrow ROW, no shoulders, ditch slopes starting right at the edge line, and hills with
k-values almost certainly lower than modern Green Book minimums. Lane width was probably eleven feet. It was a fun trip but 55 definitely felt fast and I was lucky not to encounter a dropped log or confused dog in the middle of my lane, forcing me to test my stopping distance.
Eastern and many Midwestern states tend to have rural arterial systems that sit just below the principal arterials (freeways and rural expressways) and are built to modern geometric design standards, but away from this you are largely at the mercy of the topography, and it tends to be very hit and miss whether states set speed limits that are consistent with safe stopping sight distances. The differences between neighboring states in speed limit policy (e.g., Kansas versus Nebraska) tend to be especially stark here.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 05, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PMThere were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Do you happen to know when this determination was made? I went to Colorado on a roadtrip (US 160 corridor mostly from Walsenburg to Cortez, with a loop that included the Million Dollar Highway length of US 550) over Labor Day weekend in 2012, and found these wildlife speed limit signs in extensive use. When I did some Web research afterward (not just on these signs, but also the wilfully obscure MEPDG signs), I found a CDOT press release touting them.
Quote from: corco on April 04, 2015, 10:59:50 PMI find your 50/55 MPH speed limits on two lane roads fast because the visibility is so limited compared to what I am used to.
I remember driving US 501 between Lynchburg, Virginia and Roxboro, NC: 55 limit through rolling Piedmont hills. The cross-section was definitely dated, with narrow ROW, no shoulders, ditch slopes starting right at the edge line, and hills with k-values almost certainly lower than modern Green Book minimums. Lane width was probably eleven feet. It was a fun trip but 55 definitely felt fast and I was lucky not to encounter a dropped log or confused dog in the middle of my lane, forcing me to test my stopping distance.
Eastern and many Midwestern states tend to have rural arterial systems that sit just below the principal arterials (freeways and rural expressways) and are built to modern geometric design standards, but away from this you are largely at the mercy of the topography, and it tends to be very hit and miss whether states set speed limits that are consistent with safe stopping sight distances. The differences between neighboring states in speed limit policy (e.g., Kansas versus Nebraska) tend to be especially stark here.
do wildlife speedlimit signs look any different than night and normal speed signs?
Heh. I used to travel 501 between Lynchburg and Durham all the time and I can think of more than one time–all during bright daylight, mind you–when I was doing over 90 mph between Brookneal and Halifax and I thought it felt perfectly reasonable. I hasten to note this would have been between 1995 and 1998 so I was a lot younger and a whole lot dumber! Nowadays I would never consider going anywhere close to even 70 on there.
With that said....I've always felt the imposition of the same 55-mph speed limit on both two-lane roads with blind hills, no shoulders, etc., and Interstate highways with 4+ lanes on each side seriously reduces the credibility of the assertion that speed limits are about "safety." Sure, there are some Interstates that merit a lower speed limit (New York City's are a great example). But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2015, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 12:08:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.
Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.
It's clearly racism. White is used for the nice higher daytime speed limit everyone likes and black is used for the lower nighttime speed limit that annoys people. Randy Marsh would be proud. :bigass:
Is this going to turn into yet another Daylight Savings Time thread?
/me ducks for cover
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PM
They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
Does anyone have photos of one of these units? I remember reading in the 1971 MUTCD:
Quote from: 1971 MUTCD...reflectorization of the nighttime speed superimposed over the unreflectorized numerals of the daytime speed, to permit only the nighttime speed to become legible in the beam of motor-vehicle headlamps at night.
It seems to me that this setup would be troublesome at twilight and under odd conditions where a strong light source is directly behind the motorist, causing both sets of numerals to be visible.
That is odd. They use these in Tucson (only the night speed limit is reflectorized), but that's not quite the same thing.
http://goo.gl/maps/Qxjs3
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 05, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PMThere were more of those nighttime, wildlife zone limits in the mountains. Most were west of the Continental Divide, but one was on U.S. 24 north of Buena Vista. They were only in effect during the fall and winter months. I think CDOT has done away with them, though, because they were not effective.
Do you happen to know when this determination was made? I went to Colorado on a roadtrip (US 160 corridor mostly from Walsenburg to Cortez, with a loop that included the Million Dollar Highway length of US 550) over Labor Day weekend in 2012, and found these wildlife speed limit signs in extensive use. When I did some Web research afterward (not just on these signs, but also the wilfully obscure MEPDG signs), I found a CDOT press release touting them.
Something I thought I heard actually did occur. Here is the press release. https://www.codot.gov/news/2014-news-releases/12-2014/cdot-removing-wildlife-zones-signs-lowered-nighttime-speed-limits
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 04, 2015, 05:54:33 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on April 04, 2015, 01:21:40 PM
With modern vehicles and their ability to cast light, especially with high beams, Night Speed Limits are a poor idea, just like Truck Speed Limits.
Have you ever driven in heavily wooded areas with large deer populations? Deer running suddenly into the road are a very good reason for lower night speed limits in some places. Not everywhere, mind you, and I'd certainly agree with your statement if you'd phrased it in terms of blanket night speed limits being unnecessary. But particular circumstances can and do make them appropriate in some places.
I LIVE in a heavily wooded area with tons of deer, largely due to hippies not wanting to hunt, and I still feel with modern headlight technology, that night speeds are dumb.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PMUtah did prior to 1974. They used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
We had those in Texas too. Most of them I remember were 70 day/65 night.
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 05, 2015, 02:16:17 PMdo wildlife speedlimit signs look any different than night and normal speed signs?
The pure regulatory signs did not--the only "extra" not in the
MUTCD was a date range plate in white on black. The sign panel detail sheet is here:
https://www.codot.gov/library/traffic/traffic-manuals-guidelines/fed-state-co-traffic-manuals/copy_of_WLZone.pdf
Additional information on the signing:
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/press-releases/new-legislation-sets-201cwildlife-crossing-zones201d-to-protect-drivers-and-wildlife/at_download/file
(My thanks to High Plains Traveler for digging up the press release explaining why the program was cancelled.)
Photos of the signs as installed:
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/SpeedlimitsignsinBV002.JPG/view
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/US6WildlifeSignCloseUp.JPG/view
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildllife%20signs%20012.JPG/view
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildllife%20signs%20027.JPG/view
Pattern-accurate mockup (the sign design sheet linked above won't render correctly on your PC unless you magically have the
SignCAD fonts installed):
https://www.codot.gov/programs/environmental/wildlife/wildlifeonthemove/photos/Wildlife%20Sign.JPG/view
Quote from: briantroutman on April 05, 2015, 04:17:24 PMQuote from: The High Plains Traveler on April 04, 2015, 07:37:14 PMThey used the signs with the first digit having a non-reflective daytime number and a retroreflective nighttime number behind it, so your headlights would reflect the nighttime speed.
Does anyone have photos of one of these units? I remember reading in the 1971 MUTCD:
Quote from: 1971 MUTCD...reflectorization of the nighttime speed superimposed over the unreflectorized numerals of the daytime speed, to permit only the nighttime speed to become legible in the beam of motor-vehicle headlamps at night.
It seems to me that this setup would be troublesome at twilight and under odd conditions where a strong light source is directly behind the motorist, causing both sets of numerals to be visible.
I have no photos, unfortunately, although I do have sign design sheets:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2F5%2F51%2FI-71-1%252835%252900_signing-P1-214.png&hash=b4ea8631d4ac708bd6560ef728a9adcc4b183731)
Under twilight and extreme frontal lighting there might be problems with the night limit "ghosting" under the day limit, but I don't know that these would have been more serious than the shortcomings of other reflectorization practices then in use, such as rendering black "EXIT ONLY" against yellow on lane-drop signs in button copy. I strongly suspect it was the NMSL rather than reflectorization voodoo that killed these day/night signs.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."
That is definitely true. At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY. This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it. Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."
That is definitely true. At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY. This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it. Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.
I believe Indiana has the same stupid law. there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 12:08:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
I never really understood why NCUTCD thought having a black sign convey information only applicable at night was such a good idea, either.
Probably because white is associated with day and black with night.
Well, yes, but a black sign in the dark isn't exactly the epitome of visibility...
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 05, 2015, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."
That is definitely true. At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY. This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it. Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.
I believe Indiana has the same stupid law. there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.
When the NMSL was first partially eliminated, I believe the law was 65 was only permitted in rural areas. Chances are New York & Indiana wrote their law as such, yet never updated their laws in the many years since the NMSL was fully repealed.
Here in NJ, due to much of the state being near urban areas, very little of the state would've been permitted to be signed at 65 MPH. In hindsight, it was a good thing they waited until after the NMSL was repealed in full before they allowed 65, as this did allow a lot more highway to be signed with the faster speed limit.
Steve's FL I-95 page (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/fl/i-95/) has a daytime pic of a stealth speed limit sign like this; it would be cool to see day vs. night but at least the night numerals are somewhat visible.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2015, 11:08:39 PM
When the NMSL was first partially eliminated, I believe the law was 65 was only permitted in rural areas. Chances are New York & Indiana wrote their law as such, yet never updated their laws in the many years since the NMSL was fully repealed.
Here in NJ, due to much of the state being near urban areas, very little of the state would've been permitted to be signed at 65 MPH. In hindsight, it was a good thing they waited until after the NMSL was repealed in full before they allowed 65, as this did allow a lot more highway to be signed with the faster speed limit.
New York actually held to 55 even after NMSL was partially repealed, with 65 only appearing after NMSL was fully repealed and the reign of the first Cuomo (the one named after the video game character) ended. At the time, 65 was only allowed in rural areas of the legislature's choosing. Later in the 90s, the requirements for being in a rural area and legislative defining were removed, but speed limit changes still require a request from the municipality. Colonie and Halfmoon never requested the speed limit raised on the Northway between NY 7 and Vischers Ferry, so it hasn't been. Meanwhile, Colonie DID request a 65 mph speed limit on NY 7, so they got it. This has lead to the strange situation where the roadway where nobody wants to go faster than 60 has a speed limit of 65, but the road where many people try to go 70 is 55.
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 05, 2015, 09:23:29 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2015, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 05, 2015, 02:25:03 PM
But in many cases in the East, 55 is imposed solely out of some blind adherence to a principle along the lines of, "urban areas inherently require lower speed limits."
That is definitely true. At one time, it used to be illegal to have any speed limit above 55 in a census-defined urban area in NY. This is the reason that I-87 increases to 65 north of exit 8 and decreases to 55 south of it. Even now, there are quite a few drops to 55 that don't make sense in terms of traffic or interchanges that can be explained by municipal boundaries.
I believe Indiana has the same stupid law. there's no reason why the speed limit in Indianapolis (or any of the urban areas in indiana) on the interstates can't be 65, with the exception of the downtown area interstates.
Indiana had such a law after the repeal of the national 55 MPH limit. I am sure that it was rescinded or modified, because the limit has been increased in many urban areas in recent years. Example 1: the Indiana Toll Road once had a limit of 55 or lower between the west terminus and Portage and in the South Bend area. Many portions in those areas have been raised to 65 and 70, although they are within the borders of rather large cities. Example 2: the entire St. Joseph Valley Parkway has a limit of 65, even though it passes through South Bend and Elkhart city limits.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 04, 2015, 06:24:08 PM
I would bet one reason night SL's have gone away is because who gets to say when "day" ends and "night" begins? Sunset? A set time after sunset? Same for sunrise? What if it's cloudy and you can't tell where the sun is? What if there's a mountain that blocks the sun in one place but doesn't in another?
These questions would matter if someone is going to try and write a speeding ticket for violating a nighttime SL.
Logically, the times that a night speed limit is in effect should be no different than the times drivers are legally required to have their headlights on (usually 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise).
Quote from: roadman on April 07, 2015, 11:04:12 AMLogically, the times that a night speed limit is in effect should be no different than the times drivers are legally required to have their headlights on (usually 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise).
But is that half-hour after, half-hour before rule still in effect? It was in Kansas when I first got my driver's license, but I seem to remember it was later changed to sunset to sunrise. For years now I have simply been turning on my headlamps whenever the sun dips completely below the horizon, just to make sure I can't be ticketed for failing to operate my headlamps past whatever civil lights-on time may apply in a given jurisdiction.
Frankly, I worry less about when to turn on headlamps for night than I do about Canadian daytime headlamp use laws. I believe it is the law in every province in Canada that if you have a vehicle with DRLs as factory equipment, you must use them. However, I do not know the legal position in each province for cars that do not have DRLs. In Nova Scotia, you are required to turn on your low beams during the day if you do not have DRLs and your car is not old enough to obtain a special exemption that is available for antiques. This has the potential to create great grief for cars with no automatic headlamp shutoff. For similar reasons, I am heavily critical of US states like New Mexico that use safety corridors requiring daytime headlamp use but do not clearly sign corridor limits or use headlamp reminder signs.
I just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.
As far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.
I've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.
Quote from: cjk374 on April 05, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.
The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 07, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on April 05, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.
The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.
A special speed limit for rain? Interesting, do these have special signs too?
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 07, 2015, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 07, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on April 05, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.
The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.
A special speed limit for rain? Interesting, do these have special signs too?
Yep.
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@34.717009,-86.549369,-65.49h,-3.59p,3z
They used to say "Raining" rather than "when wet", IIRC.
Cecil Ashburn Drive also has these special "when wet" speed limits, which were added later:
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@34.666274,-86.529976,-202.76h,-5.7p,3z
Quote from: corco on April 07, 2015, 11:38:38 AMI just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.
I do the same. If I had the certainty that I could turn them off without being bothered by the police, I would turn them off.
QuoteAs far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.
Some of New Mexico's badly signed safety corridors are on four-lane divided highways, like the I-40 Gallup bypass (there is no end-of-corridor signing as you go east) or US 64 between Shiprock and Farmington. I am not sure I have actually driven any two-lane safety corridors in New Mexico.
California has a generally good approach to safety corridor signing, but some districts (e.g. District 1) are more scrupulous about using "Check headlights" signs on a zone basis than others (e.g. District 6). I believe there is also at least one example of a safety corridor without mandatory daytime headlamp use, though the specific one escapes me (perhaps SR 65 between Bakersfield and Porterville?).
I will turn on my headlamps whenever I am in a safety corridor that requires their use or visibility is subpar, but otherwise I prefer to keep them off, to save fuel, wear and tear on electrical components, and obscuring my turn signals. My car is white, so I tend not to worry about visibility.
QuoteI've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.
This is a good habit to get into and I have more or less done the same. I now carry stuff in the trunk instead of the rear passenger seat, to save wear and tear on 21-year-old power door lock actuators, which means my taillamps are usually in my field of vision when I leave the car. However, it takes just one slip, with driver in a hurry and car parked in an isolated location, to cause problems.
Even with good habits and situational awareness, automatic headlamp shutoff is a benefit, as is cruise control when the goal is effortless compliance with speed limits, automatic forward gear count greater than four when the top speed limit is greater than 70, etc.
Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use. We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston. However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.
Quote from: roadman on April 07, 2015, 02:00:10 PM
Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use. We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston. However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.
1. The one you just mentioned.
2. MA 125 near its southern end.
What's the third one?
Quote from: 1 on April 07, 2015, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: roadman on April 07, 2015, 02:00:10 PM
Can't speak for other states, but Massachusetts still has the "half hour after sunset until half hour before sunrise" law for nighttime headlight use. We also have three 'daytime headlight use" corridors - the most notable (and oldest) one being the "Super 2" section of Route 2 between Orange and Phillipston. However, there is no law mandating daytime headlight use in these corridors.
1. The one you just mentioned.
2. MA 125 near its southern end.
What's the third one?
US 20 between MA 12 & 49 in Oxford/Charlton.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 07, 2015, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: corco on April 07, 2015, 11:38:38 AMI just turn my headlights on when I enter Canada.
I do the same. If I had the certainty that I could turn them off without being bothered by the police, I would turn them off.
QuoteAs far as New Mexico or Nevada's safety corridors- I typically leave my lights on when traveling long distances on two lane roads anyway to make myself more visible to oncoming passers.
Some of New Mexico's badly signed safety corridors are on four-lane divided highways, like the I-40 Gallup bypass (there is no end-of-corridor signing as you go east) or US 64 between Shiprock and Farmington. I am not sure I have actually driven any two-lane safety corridors in New Mexico.
California has a generally good approach to safety corridor signing, but some districts (e.g. District 1) are more scrupulous about using "Check headlights" signs on a zone basis than others (e.g. District 6). I believe there is also at least one example of a safety corridor without mandatory daytime headlamp use, though the specific one escapes me (perhaps SR 65 between Bakersfield and Porterville?).
I will turn on my headlamps whenever I am in a safety corridor that requires their use or visibility is subpar, but otherwise I prefer to keep them off, to save fuel, wear and tear on electrical components, and obscuring my turn signals. My car is white, so I tend not to worry about visibility.
QuoteI've gotten myself into the subconscious habit of looking at my lights as I walk away from my car, so I don't inadvertently leave them on.
This is a good habit to get into and I have more or less done the same. I now carry stuff in the trunk instead of the rear passenger seat, to save wear and tear on 21-year-old power door lock actuators, which means my taillamps are usually in my field of vision when I leave the car. However, it takes just one slip, with driver in a hurry and car parked in an isolated location, to cause problems.
Even with good habits and situational awareness, automatic headlamp shutoff is a benefit, as is cruise control when the goal is effortless compliance with speed limits, automatic forward gear count greater than four when the top speed limit is greater than 70, etc.
I turn my headlights on at all times of day. I have DRLs anyway and I have gotten into the habit of turning them on every time i get into the car.
I turn my headlights on during the day if I'm on a two-lane road with passing over the center line. I've had that habit since I was learning to drive. Picked it up from my father, who picked it up on family trips to Canada when we were kids. I find its substantially easier to see an oncoming car if its lights are on, especially if it's summer and you get that shimmering mirage effect on the road.
I do not turn them on during the day on other sorts of roads unless the weather is bad. I will turn them on before sunset or after sunrise if the light is casting a glare, and in bad weather I do not use my wipers as the determinant. Basically I err on the side of turning them on if I'm in doubt, and if I have any trouble at all seeing other cars due to lighting or weather, I turn on my lights.
All too many people seem to think the sole purpose of lights is to help YOU see. I wonder if this is why we seem to have a plague of dark-colored SUVs being driven without headlights at night.
Quote from: oscar on April 04, 2015, 03:23:55 AM
US 550 has reduced night speed limits, in an area with frequent wildlife crossings south of Montrose CO.
The Night Speed signs on US-550 are now gone. Within the past few years, CDOT did a highway upgrade project on US-550 between Montrose & Ridgway in which they installed 10-12' high fencing on either side of the ROW with occasional dirt "escape ramps" and cattle grates at all intersections & driveways. The ramps are designed so if there is a stray deer or other animal within the ROW, they can escape via the one-way ramps (high drop off to prevent/deter re-entry) to return to the open land.
That being said, last time I was on CO-13 between Rifle and Meeker there were night speed signs. But CDOT is becoming very aggressive in building wildlife barrier zones along major roadways where animal collisions and near-misses are an issue, so signs on that stretch of highway may becoming extinct as well in the near future.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 11, 2015, 02:25:37 PM
I turn my headlights on during the day if I'm on a two-lane road with passing over the center line. I've had that habit since I was learning to drive. Picked it up from my father, who picked it up on family trips to Canada when we were kids. I find its substantially easier to see an oncoming car if its lights are on, especially if it's summer and you get that shimmering mirage effect on the road.
I do not turn them on during the day on other sorts of roads unless the weather is bad. I will turn them on before sunset or after sunrise if the light is casting a glare, and in bad weather I do not use my wipers as the determinant. Basically I err on the side of turning them on if I'm in doubt, and if I have any trouble at all seeing other cars due to lighting or weather, I turn on my lights.
All too many people seem to think the sole purpose of lights is to help YOU see. I wonder if this is why we seem to have a plague of dark-colored SUVs being driven without headlights at night.
I do likewise on pretty much every count.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 11, 2015, 02:25:37 PMI turn my headlights on during the day if I'm on a two-lane road with passing over the center line. I've had that habit since I was learning to drive. Picked it up from my father, who picked it up on family trips to Canada when we were kids. I find its substantially easier to see an oncoming car if its lights are on, especially if it's summer and you get that shimmering mirage effect on the road.
I can see headlamps improving the conspicuity of a dark-colored car, especially in open woodland. My own car is white, but I do turn on the headlamps in broad daylight when I think I may be camouflaged (e.g. oncoming traffic blinded by snow).
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 11, 2015, 02:25:37 PMAll too many people seem to think the sole purpose of lights is to help YOU see. I wonder if this is why we seem to have a plague of dark-colored SUVs being driven without headlights at night.
I think always-on instrument panel lighting is a factor, since it removes difficulty reading the gauges as a cue to the driver to turn on the lights or, in the case of an unfamiliar car, pull over to the side of the road to
research how to turn on the lights. This works in conjunction with a lack of uniformity in lighting control design that has resulted partly from former luxury-car features like automatic headlamp control going downmarket before their basic ergonomics have been shaken down across the entire auto industry.
My 1994 Saturn SL2 (manufactured a year or two before S-Series cars were equipped with DRLs) is simple and old-school: headlamps have to be turned on and off manually (no shutoff to protect the battery), and IP lights are on only when the headlamps are on.
In contrast, the 2005 Toyota Camry has DRLs and always-on IP lights and will not turn headlamps on automatically unless the lights selector switch (part of the turn signal stalk) is turned to "AUTO DRL" (or possibly "AUTO DRL OFF" as an alternate). The IP lights do dim when the headlamps are turned on, but the difference in lighting level is subtle. There is a headlamps-on telltale but since it looks nothing like the international low-beams symbol, it means nothing to a driver who has not read the manual carefully. The lighting controls are arranged so that if one driver turns the headlamps to full manual operation, as is necessary to use the foglamps, and forgets to turn them back to "AUTO DRL," the next driver will likely have no idea the headlamps are not going to come on automatically until it is almost pitch-black dark.
The 2009 Honda Fit has DRLs (no option to disable that I can find without combing through the manual) but no automatic headlamp control. Since it also has always-on IP lighting, it is possible to drive a considerable distance in pitch-black dark thinking the low beams are on and wondering why they are working so poorly. It does have a headlamps-on telltale that looks recognizably like the international low-beams symbol, but the absence of it will not necessarily mean anything to a driver who has not seen it light up when the headlamps are turned on. (When I borrowed this car for a trip to Colorado in 2012, I actually made the mistake of driving at night on DRLs only, despite downloading and skimming the manual.)
Wichita has just one commercial airport and its annual passenger numbers (about 1.4 million PATM, IIRC) amount to about 0.2% of the metropolitan area population, so I don't see a lot of cars (of whatever color) driving after dark without lights. On the other hand, the Baltimore-Washington CSA has 9.3 million people while the three major commercial airports each serve several multiples of that (22 million PATMs each at Dulles and BWI, 20 million PATMs at Washington National), so the roads around you are full of people driving rental cars without any idea of how to work the lights.
One could argue that these people should be downloading the manuals for their rentals and reading them in advance so that they are fully up to speed when they are handed the keys at the rental car counter. However, manuals for new cars these days run to about 300 pages (not including additional volumes dealing with GPS and infotainment systems), so realistically they are not going to get the information they need unless they have a checklist of basic vehicle tasks (such as turning on headlamps and verifying that they are on) to use as a study aid. Moreover, owing to the rental car companies' bait-and-switch tactics, the car whose manual you downloaded and read is not necessarily the same as the car you get when you turn up at the airport.
I know of no good solution to this problem short of standardization carried to a high enough level that study of a manual is not necessary for basic operation of the vehicle lighting system. We are not there yet.
QuoteI think always-on instrument panel lighting is a factor, since it removes difficulty reading the gauges as a cue to the driver to turn on the lights
I confess that, in the first few months I owned my 2012 Focus, I would ocassionally forgot to turn on my lights at night by thinking "Oh, the instrument lights are on, so the lights are on." Fortunately, I never drove very far before I realized the lights were not on.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on April 07, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on April 05, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 04, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
If you're gonna have a night speed limit, why not have a rain one too? Or an ice one?
Alabama has wet speed limits on US 231 and 431 south of Huntsville, but the goog's images apparently aren't new enough.
The one on US 431 "going over the mountain" (from California Street to Hampton Cove) are the only wet speed limits I know of around here.
I saw signs posted for 60 dry/50 wet going up one side of the mountain, but can't remember where...I could swear we were northbound headed to Huntsville.
Personally, in my car, the instrument lighting is bright during the day (when headlights are off) and goes to extreme dim lighting at night which prevents glare from it, so its real easy to tell if the headlights are on. Dim IP = lights on. Bright IP = sun is out, more light required to make it easier to read. When I drive my other car that just has backlighting tied to the headlights, I find I can't tell during the day if they are on (although at night, it is obvious)