My car is back in the shop because there's a problem with the new clutch. Won't be ready until Monday, so my wife's car is in the garage this weekend because I figured we should put it there instead of the loaner.
We have a one-car garage with a driveway of corresponding width and there are bushes down the right side of the driveway. For some reason, my wife is utterly incapable of backing her car out of the garage. She invariably drifts to the right and runs into the bushes or drives over something. So this afternoon I was standing behind her trying to guide her out. No luck. I would tell her to turn the wheel to the left and she would, but two seconds later she'd turn it to the right again. Her sideview mirror wound up being dragged through one of the bushes and her tires were inches from driving over several other bushes (which would have scratched the hell out of her paint job, too). It's not a big or wide car, either–a 2003 Acura RSX.
Now she's mad at me. Feels I was impatient and unhelpful. Damn right I was impatient with the way she refused to listen to me!
Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this next time she has to back out? I'm tempted just to say "you're on your own," but I'm afraid of how much damage she'll do to her car and the bushes if I let her do that. (It doesn't help that when she gets the car into the garage, she invariably turns the wheel to the left and the car winds up parked at a slight angle. If she'd just pull straight in, she could back straight out, but for some reason she never does that.) I suppose the obvious solution is "don't let her park there," but that's not a particularly viable option!
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 12, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
My car is back in the shop because there's a problem with the new clutch. Won't be ready until Monday, so my wife's car is in the garage this weekend because I figured we should put it there instead of the loaner.
We have a one-car garage with a driveway of corresponding width and there are bushes down the right side of the driveway. For some reason, my wife is utterly incapable of backing her car out of the garage. She invariably drifts to the right and runs into the bushes or drives over something. So this afternoon I was standing behind her trying to guide her out. No luck. I would tell her to turn the wheel to the left and she would, but two seconds later she'd turn it to the right again. Her sideview mirror wound up being dragged through one of the bushes and her tires were inches from driving over several other bushes (which would have scratched the hell out of her paint job, too). It's not a big or wide car, either—a 2003 Acura RSX.
Now she's mad at me. Feels I was impatient and unhelpful. Damn right I was impatient with the way she refused to listen to me!
Anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this next time she has to back out? I'm tempted just to say "you're on your own," but I'm afraid of how much damage she'll do to her car and the bushes if I let her do that. (It doesn't help that when she gets the car into the garage, she invariably turns the wheel to the left and the car winds up parked at a slight angle. If she'd just pull straight in, she could back straight out, but for some reason she never does that.) I suppose the obvious solution is "don't let her park there," but that's not a particularly viable option!
Honestly, take her out to a parking lot and have her practice backing into spaces and backing down the parking lane until she gets over the mental demons that are keeping her from being able to do it.
I'd also have her try backing with her side mirrors instead of the rearview- have her turn the mirrors down and just have her follow the painted lines/the edge of your driveway. If she focuses on her passenger side mirror, she can focus on keeping the back of the car x distance from the bushes and drive that way.
It's almost certainly a mental block and not a lack of skill- if she's physically incapable of driving in reverse she shouldn't be driving at all. I'm assuming she is able to back out of parking spaces, so she knows how to drive in reverse.
It sounds completely counterintuitive, but if it is a mental block it might be easier to have her back INTO the garage, just to shake up her thought processes.
My parents taught me while I was in the car with them. However, the problem with that method was that my dad likes to backseat drive like a mofo and thoughts like that override my mind's ability to process and react accordingly. So a lot of my errors are HIS fault, not mine. I'm not the best at parking, I admit, but I can pull out with no issue (unless the person next to me fucked up their parking job worse than I did). My mind tells me what to do, and I just follow through. Of course, if her mind is telling her that she should be turning the wheel enough to cause the car to be at an angle BEFORE clearing all the obstructions, then that could be a problem!
Yeah, she has no problem backing out of most parking spaces (unless sometimes she's near a pillar in an underground garage) and she parallel parks well enough although I feel she leaves too much space between cars (hardly unique to her, of course). It's only our garage and driveway that seems to cause a problem. It underscores why I almost never let her drive my car and will never ever let her back it out of the garage, though, because it's a much bigger car than hers (2004 Acura TL). I think narrow spaces freak her a bit because before we got married, she lived in an apartment and had a covered parking spot where the spot across the way had a pillar next to it. I kept telling her she had to back straight out instead of turning the steering wheel, but she wouldn't listen and eventually she sideswiped the pillar (rather expensive damage resulting).
The problem with suggesting we go somewhere to practice is that it would invariably start a fight. I like the idea, though. Any suggestions for how to pitch the idea diplomatically?!!!! I guess when she gets home later today and gets mad at me, I could remind her of when she sideswiped the pillar and tell her she's doing exactly the same thing here.
Try backing INTO the garage, with the threat of hitting something more substantial than bushes as incentive to do it properly??
Quote from: davewiecking on April 12, 2015, 04:34:59 PM
Try backing INTO the garage, with the threat of hitting something more substantial than bushes as incentive to do it properly??
What I'm afraid of is what happens if the threat becomes reality!
Hmm, you've given me an idea, though. I back our third car in sometimes because it often needs a jumpstart. But it's even smaller than hers and it's a convertible. Maybe I could put the top down and have her try to back it in–AFTER I remove our golf clubs for safekeeping!
Backing up in a convertible is indeed a MUCH easier experience than backing up a normal car.
Quote from: davewiecking on April 12, 2015, 04:47:49 PM
Backing up in a convertible is indeed a MUCH easier experience than backing up a normal car.
What if she screws it up though? Seems like it would be worse to damage the convertible over the regular car! :ded:
OK, I'm going to try to say this very carefully. I do NOT want to stereotype nor do I want to demean your wife or any women drivers. However, in general there are certain skills that tend to be easier for males than females. One in particular is a certain specific degree of spatial awareness and conceptualization. (Just to avoid one-sidedness, females tend to do better on emotional and communicative tasks than males.)
It is difficult for you to teach your wife how to have an awareness of spatial orientation that to you may feel instinctive but that she simply has no awareness of and may not find easy to learn. This may be why she parks at an angle and such.
Is there something across the street that she can use as a sight line in the rearview mirror? Could she use the driver's side mirror to keep the car close to the left side of the driveway? Possibly she would need to tilt it down to use as a back-up aid in your driveway, then reposition for 'ordinary' use.
It also occurs to me to ask if she can back into the garage so that she can just just drive forward out of the garage but I think I can guess the answer to that one. Maybe (since it sounds like this is a temporary arrangement), you can back it into the garage when convenient for you so that she can drive forward as needed out of the garage.
Good Luck.
I have also heard several times that men generally have better spatial awareness and depth perception than women do, though since I have never been, nor will ever be, female, I have no way to confirm this through personal experience aside from what's discussed in this thread (which I consider second-hand experience).
Is your driveway on a decent incline? If so, could the problem be a lack of visual cues? This is the view, at a driver's head level, out of my garage. The incline makes it so the bushes on the right disappear from view as soon as the car is halfway out of the garage. In that case, an "aim for the tall trees" or something of the like might work.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F04%2F12%2Fa7936ae5c63bacf951d694ffed00d698.jpg&hash=e14cf34938e94e1909ac09efbf59eb1dcd492580)
Failing that, how about a backup camera?
Quote from: 6a on April 12, 2015, 05:20:26 PM
Is your driveway on a decent incline? If so, could the problem be a lack of visual cues? This is the view, at a driver's head level, out of my garage. The incline makes it so the bushes on the right disappear from view as soon as the car is halfway out of the garage. In that case, an "aim for the tall trees" or something of the like might work.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F04%2F12%2Fa7936ae5c63bacf951d694ffed00d698.jpg&hash=e14cf34938e94e1909ac09efbf59eb1dcd492580)
Failing that, how about a backup camera?
That's why I feel like it'll be easier for her to use the side mirrors. If she concentrates on just keeping the tire a certain distance from the edge, she doesn't need to be aware of what is directly behind her until she gets right to the edge of the driveway.
Quote from: corco on April 12, 2015, 05:23:39 PM
Quote from: 6a on April 12, 2015, 05:20:26 PM
Is your driveway on a decent incline? If so, could the problem be a lack of visual cues? This is the view, at a driver's head level, out of my garage. The incline makes it so the bushes on the right disappear from view as soon as the car is halfway out of the garage. In that case, an "aim for the tall trees" or something of the like might work.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F04%2F12%2Fa7936ae5c63bacf951d694ffed00d698.jpg&hash=e14cf34938e94e1909ac09efbf59eb1dcd492580)
Failing that, how about a backup camera?
That's why I feel like it'll be easier for her to use the side mirrors. If she concentrates on just keeping the tire a certain distance from the edge, she doesn't need to be aware of what is directly behind her until she gets right to the edge of the driveway.
Or, if using side mirrors, paint a small orange dot or stripe on the curb across the street and tell her to keep it in the middle of her mirror.
Just have her close her eyes and use her feminine intuition. That's a thing, right?
Quote from: NE2 on April 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Just have her close her eyes and use her feminine intuition. That's a thing, right?
Damn, that's sexist. There are a lot of people who have trouble backing a vehicle, male and female. 1995hoo's wife is one of them.
The stripe idea is one of the better ones, IMHO, and might give her something to follow.
Quote from: NE2 on April 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Just have her close her eyes and use her feminine intuition. That's a thing, right?
Heh. Given how many women supposedly have trouble late at night telling whether the toilet seat is up or down....!
Painting a stripe across the street won't work due to another driveway that is slightly offset from ours. I think we'll try tilting down the passenger-side mirror.
Yep a lot of people have trouble backing. A lot have trouble driving.
There are a lot of men who can't back or drive. However, I have noticed in my over 50 years of driving women tend to have more trouble backing. It is like a lot of things, practice, practice, practice.
When I started to seriously learn to drive my dad was in the Army and stationed in Korea. So my mother was my best teacher before I was ever legal. She was a tough task master and excellent driver. She would take me out in the boonies on the army post and have me back around trees, up hills, get unstuck in sand. This was all with a manual transmission. She told me that I will know how to handle adverse conditions before I ever would be turned loose on the road. Yes, she included driving in snow/ice. Drivers Ed was a joke for me. I was the first to pass the driving test in that class after only a few weeks and three months before I could get my license.
So yes I agree, a lot, maybe most, of the women can't back but I know a lot who can and a lot of men who can't. The parking lot and practice, practice, practice. Maybe a non relative would work better. I couldn't ever teach my ex (she was a nightmare) anything. She rebelled against anyone who tried to tell her anything. Some people are not teachable.
My wife of 20 years lacks the confidence. She just "knows" she will hit something. However, lately she has tried a few times on her own. I do back the car into the garage for her. Backing it in makes it easier for her to get into it. She can back it out but doesn't want to try to back it in. If I am out of town she will pull it in and back it out.
Quote from: NE2 on April 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Just have her close her eyes and use her feminine intuition. That's a thing, right?
That's best tested by leaving the toilet seat up at night.
Edit: dammit, I should read first
Does she back up with one hand on the wheel or two? And does she normally drive with one hand or two?
One possible way, if she can drive with just one hand - especially the left: Have her rest her elbow on the armrest or top of the door by the window, with the hand on the wheel. Since her elbow is on a fixed position, her hand may be more likely not to move either. When she gets to the street, then she can turn the wheel with both hands.
The sideview mirror is another good option as mentioned earlier - this is how truckers or anyone that can't use the interior rearview mirror have to back up anyway.
She may be fixated on something too far away as well. Good bowlers, for example, aren't looking at the pins 60 feet away; they are looking at the marks which are about 15 feet from the bowler's release point. They know how their ball is going to hook or curve, so they shoot for a closer mark. When I bowled in leagues and such, if I was a board off my mark 15 feet away (with each board measuring about 1" wide), I knew that my ball would be several inches off when it hit the pins. So try several chalk marks in the driveway...she just needs her sideview mirror to see them, and as she approaches each one, she can concentrate on the closest ones...not the ones at the end of the driveway.
Meant to add–the driveway is a slight incline but not steep. A manual-shift car will roll away if you don't set the handbrake, but the slope is minimal and the distance is short as we live in a townhouse.
I like Jeff's ideas about the chalk marks. But I think first we'll try just tilting the mirror since she said she already does that when she parallel parks (which I didn't know). She does a decent job parallel parking, so maybe that'll solve it.
(BTW, when she got home she was no longer mad at me and she admitted she has trouble and doesn't know why; she also remembered hitting that pillar. She said to her it didn't look like she was close to the bushes.)
What made me such a good backing driver was several years driving a forklift for work. Probably not the answer you're looking for.
I find that, sometimes, the best course of action is to NOT move the steering wheel at all while backing out. Assuming the car was parked straight and the wheel not cocked to one side, then you should be able to make it to the street fairly easily by keeping an iron grip on the wheel.
RE the chalk idea-back when there was still room in the garage for a Suburban, I still had to park it exactly right to avoid hitting a column in the middle (2 car garage; separate doors), get the door down, and leave enough room at the back to be able to open the tailgate, and also open the passenger doors. Had to park right next to the column. First backed it in the driveway as close as possible to the garage door (without hitting it) and as close to the driver's side as I dared, and sprayed 2 stripes on the driveway right next to the front/rear driver's side tires so I'd know where to stop to get out and open the garage door (before I went to Sears for an opener). If I parked there, rain coming off the roof overhang would hit the vehicle roof, and I could unload into the garage without getting (too) wet. Or I could then backup straight into the garage (after folding in the side mirror), and stop with the front tire at another mark I put on the garage floor. If I was off by 2 inches (front/back), either the garage door would hit the bumper, or the rear hatch would hit the back wall. Eventually I solved the problem by accumulating so much clutter that the thought of actually fitting a Suburban into the garage became laughable. I do hope Ms. Hoo appreciates the amount of thought that has gone into helping her out...
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 12, 2015, 04:06:51 PMNow she's mad at me. Feels I was impatient and unhelpful. Damn right I was impatient with the way she refused to listen to me!
So, none of the rest of what you wrote was important, because we have hit the heart of the matter.
Memorize the words "I'm sorry, honey. You were right." Practice them alone, because they are hard to say, particularly when untrue. You'll also have to sound like you mean them, which is even harder. But they may be all you have.
You won't be able to teach anything unless you can get this part right.
It seems to me like your wife has the process for backing out of a parking space mentally ingrained to involve turning the wheel. Which, for a normal space in a parking lot is correct, so it's understandable where this habit comes from. The garage is posing a special case situation she has never encountered before and she is struggling with it because she isn't thinking of it as a special case. If she's going to get it right she needs to retrain her brain to recognize this. Simply telling her don't turn the wheel to the right won't work because she isn't making a conscious decision to do that, it's automatic behavior from motor memory.
I don't know your wife so I don't know what form of instruction works best with her. I'm sure the diplomacy of getting her to accept that she requires instruction is much more difficult than the instruction itself.
Once you get to that point, though, I'd approach it by basically telling her to forget everything she thinks she knows about backing out of a parking spot. She is not backing out of a parking spot. She is doing something completely different that she needs to learn from scratch how to do. And... be nice about it. Don't yell, try and be patient and understanding.
Maybe I shouldn't have brought up gender differences - maybe I should have just said different people's brains work in different ways. Several of the things your (1995who's) wife said reminded me so much of when teaching my second child, a daughter, how to drive. Having already taught one kid to drive, I thought the second would be easy - HA! No matter how simply or basically I thought I was stating certain concepts, she didn't seem to be listening - which made me angry. Well, she was able to get across to me that , yes, she was listening but that what I was saying made no sense to her. I just wanted to suggest that your wife might be trying to listen and just not understanding.
Hoo, if you ever drive by a VDOT office or yard, you might notice that all or very nearly all vehicles with state government registration plates are backed-in to their parking spaces. According to them (not me, though I prefer to back-in most of the time), having vehicles backed-in to spaces means a lot less in the way of backing crashes.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2015, 02:39:14 PM
Hoo, if you ever drive by a VDOT office or yard, you might notice that all or very nearly all vehicles with state government registration plates are backed-in to their parking spaces. According to them (not me, though I prefer to back-in most of the time), having vehicles backed-in to spaces means a lot less in the way of backing crashes.
Ditto for NYSDOT.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2015, 02:39:14 PM
Hoo, if you ever drive by a VDOT office or yard, you might notice that all or very nearly all vehicles with state government registration plates are backed-in to their parking spaces. According to them (not me, though I prefer to back-in most of the time), having vehicles backed-in to spaces means a lot less in the way of backing crashes.
Heh. Given my wife's difficulty backing out of the garage, there is no way I'm going to let her back in anytime soon unless perhaps she's driving the convertible with the top down!
(After watching her drive into the garage, I think a major part of the problem is that she doesn't just drive straight in. For whatever reason, she invariably turns a little to the left, I think because of some stuff we have standing in the far right corner. Then when she tries to back out, her parking at a cockeyed angle only aggravates her tendency to turn to the right as she backs out.)
Since my car is (finally) back from the shop, I've reclaimed the garage for myself, so hopefully this issue won't recur for a while!
Quote from: US81 on April 13, 2015, 08:44:55 AM
No matter how simply or basically I thought I was stating certain concepts, she didn't seem to be listening - which made me angry. Well, she was able to get across to me that , yes, she was listening but that what I was saying made no sense to her.
This happens to me all the time when I try to give people directions.
"Oh, just walk two blocks west, I'll be right on the corner"
"Um... which way is west?"
I do this without even realizing it's a problem because in my head I think of everything in terms of cardinal directions, and I pretty much always know no matter where I am which way north, west, etc. are. Normal people, however, don't have a compass in their head and telling them "walk west" provides them with no useful information.
1995hoo, it sounds like the problem has been solved, but in case it recurs, here is what I have to add to the good advice given above:
* I'd present an intensive session in a nearly-empty parking lot as a chance for
both of you to rehearse skills already learned and possibly try new techniques. Parking is one of the few activities where experience and training do not guarantee performance.
* When she backs up, is your wife following the textbook approach--right hand on back of passenger seat, head turned to the rear, left hand on the steering wheel? This is textbook because it keeps to the absolute minimum the chances of backing over someone or something that is not or cannot be seen in the mirrors, but it takes a great deal of practice and muscular coordination to avoid feeding unwanted input into the steering wheel while facing away from it, holding it with just one arm, and not being able to tell angle of steer by spoke position. It is also an excellent way to sideswipe adjacent obstacles and miss cars approaching from the blind direction at speed.
* In regard to not parking straight in, while that is often a result of insufficiently trained spatial perception, it can also be a result of off-center steering. Has the car had an alignment done at any point in its history (e.g., when replacing tires)? If so, was toe-in adjusted equally on both sides to preserve centering of the steering wheel? Many alignment shops save time by adjusting toe-in on only one side and hoping the customer doesn't notice.
* Familiarity with the parking area is an important issue when backing up. Our house has a left-curved driveway, two cars wide, with two cars garaged and the third parked behind the curve on the inside side, so that each of the two garaged cars has to be backed along a curve and through a slot one car wide. We manage this without difficulty, using the driver-side mirror to judge clearance to the ungaraged car, but the majority of our guests cannot do the same without whipsawing the steering wheel unnecessarily, making more than one attempt to back into the slot, or dropping wheels onto the lawn. On the other hand, we have responsibility for another house that also has a curved driveway two cars wide, but slightly narrower and bent to the right instead of the left, and backing into a car-width slot (using passenger-side rearview mirror for a significantly less reliable guide to clearance) causes us difficulty on the relatively rare occasions we have to do it. In both driveways we have great difficulty backing around a car parked on the outside of the curve, since we cannot use an outside mirror on either side to see clear air between the vehicles until we are almost past the point where the reversing vehicle might collide with the parked car.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2015, 02:39:14 PMHoo, if you ever drive by a VDOT office or yard, you might notice that all or very nearly all vehicles with state government registration plates are backed-in to their parking spaces. According to them (not me, though I prefer to back-in most of the time), having vehicles backed-in to spaces means a lot less in the way of backing crashes.
I don't think parking practice within state DOT yards necessarily translates well to the wider world. Most of the people parking there have a common employer and are aware of that employer's preferences with regard to vehicle parking, and are prepared for other cars to be reversing into spaces. In other parking lots open to the general public, I think reversing into a space increases the risk of collision between the reversing vehicle and another vehicle seeking either to overtake it or to nose into the same space, and in many cases this increase in risk offsets the reduced risk of collision while the reversing vehicle is aligned with the space and is backing straight into it.
My personal preference is to drive through into an empty space. When this is not possible, I estimate I nose in two-thirds of the time, and reverse in one-third of the time, which is low frequency by California standards but quite high for Kansas. In parking lots owned by the City of Wichita, reversing in is expressly forbidden by municipal ordinance and signs are posted to this effect.
A woman? Might as well just widen your garage door(s).
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 19, 2015, 08:43:38 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2015, 02:39:14 PM
Hoo, if you ever drive by a VDOT office or yard, you might notice that all or very nearly all vehicles with state government registration plates are backed-in to their parking spaces. According to them (not me, though I prefer to back-in most of the time), having vehicles backed-in to spaces means a lot less in the way of backing crashes.
Heh. Given my wife's difficulty backing out of the garage, there is no way I'm going to let her back in anytime soon unless perhaps she's driving the convertible with the top down!
(After watching her drive into the garage, I think a major part of the problem is that she doesn't just drive straight in. For whatever reason, she invariably turns a little to the left, I think because of some stuff we have standing in the far right corner. Then when she tries to back out, her parking at a cockeyed angle only aggravates her tendency to turn to the right as she backs out.)
Have you (and her) ever considered having someone mild-mannered work with her a little on her backing skills?
Quote from: spooky on April 21, 2015, 06:59:17 AM
A woman? Might as well just widen your garage door(s).
I disagree. In terms of gender, the worst drivers on the roads (and driveways) are male.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 21, 2015, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: spooky on April 21, 2015, 06:59:17 AM
A woman? Might as well just widen your garage door(s).
I disagree. In terms of gender, the worst drivers on the roads (and driveways) are male.
I'll disagree again. I've found both to be equally deplorable. It's merely that men tend to drive more often than women.
Quote from: spooky on April 21, 2015, 06:59:17 AM
A woman? Might as well just widen your garage door(s).
That's sexist.
Blind spot mirrors help with backing. One significant advantage is that they allow you to see the ground beside the vehicle, including the edge of the pavement or pavement markings.