iBallasticwolf2 started a topic about overbuilt roads. What roads do you believe were underbuilt?
I-5 Eastbank Freeway
I-205 from Wanker's Corner [Stafford] to Oregon City
OR 217 I-5 to OR 8
WA 14 I-5 to at least I-205, possibly 164th Ave
US 26 OR 213 to Gresham...
A lot of these were just these roadways outliving their projected AADT counts, whether underestimated or not widened in time.
I-485 in the Pineville area of south Charlotte comes to mind. I think the stretch between South Blvd and NC 51 opened over capacity, or reached it not long after.
I-95 in Connecticut, and I-76 in southeastern Pennsylvania.
Warning: such a topic could literally make this one the longest threads in the forum. :)
Short answer: any road that has Level Of Service F on a daily basis that's not due to construction or accident(s).
MA 2 in and near Concord. It should be a freeway.
Interstate 70 from WV to the Turnpike.
I-476 in the "parkway" section north of 95.
NJ route 38
NJ29 in trenton after the tunnel.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 28, 2015, 05:10:19 PM
Interstate 70 from WV to the Turnpike.
I-476 in the "parkway" section north of 95.
NJ route 38
NJ29 in trenton after the tunnel.
I disagree. North of exit 13, I-476 is a normal highway. North of exit 16, I-476 widens in order to become the NE Extension, with weaving needed to access exit 18.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 28, 2015, 05:10:19 PM
NJ29 in trenton after the tunnel.
Were that a freeway just like the other portions of 29, Trenton would have no access to it's waterfront area.
I agree that this could be the longest thread since Alanland. Is there a way to limit it to LOS F within 5 years of opening or early structural failure or something like that?
TN 385 east of Winchester Rd to Collierville really should have either included a third lane in each direction or at least the bridges should have been wide enough for a third lane; really this should have been known when it was built. And the elevated section between Kirby and Riverdale should have had a fourth auxiliary lane (like between the next two exits to the east) particularly westbound.
GDOT tends to underbuild suburban highways in general: GA 74 between I-85 and Peachtree City, GA 316 between I-85 and Athens, and Russell Pkwy between I-75 and US 129 in Warner Robins are all examples that should have been upgraded as freeways rather than signalized expressways, and now fixing them will cost more than doing it right in the first place. GDOT is going to repeat the same mistake again with GA 96 too.
The original span of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge could potentially be considered underbuilt. The newer span was definitely underbuilt.
The eastern portion of I-80 in Pennsylvania needs to be rebuilt. The western-most portions of I-80 in New Jersey (along the Delaware River) also need to be reconstructed.
* US 40 in Missouri between Hampton Avenue and I-170: Should have had an extra through lane each way.
* US 40 in St. Charles County, Missouri, between Route K and I-70: Should have been built with six lanes, maybe with accommodations for gong to eight.
* I-355 between I-290 and I-55: Should have been built for easy expansion to eight lanes.
* I-55 between I-294 and I-90/I-94
Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway. It was deliberately underbuilt (two lanes per side for most of the segment) to overcome local opposition to building anything at all.
Quote from: Zeffy on May 28, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 28, 2015, 05:10:19 PM
NJ29 in trenton after the tunnel.
Were that a freeway just like the other portions of 29, Trenton would have no access to it's waterfront area.
I meant the section after the stop lights. that seems to flood relatively easily and has some odd merging.
Practically anything in the Chicago area, especially the IKE.
As stated previously, everything at LOS F on a semi-regular basis, along with most things at a bad LOS E. New York examples include, but are not limited to:
*I-278 (entire length)
*I-495 west of Ronkonkoma
*Northern and Southern State Parkways (entire length)
*I-95 (entire length), ESPECIALLY the Cross Bronx
*Most of I-87 south of Malta
*I-190 north of Exit 9
*I-490 east of downtown Rochester
*I-287/Cross Westchester Expressway
*Hutchison River Parkway
*Bronx River Parkway
*Sprain Brook Parkway
*Belt Parkway
*Grand Central Parkway
*Cross Island Parkway
*Sunrise Highway (NY 27)
*I-90 on the east side of Buffalo and through Albany
*Quickway (NY 17) east of Liberty
*I-678 (entire length)
*I-295 (entire length)
See what mess this got us into? For states like New York with a system that has parts that are 80+ years old, most of the mileage in cities is underbuilt.
Interstate 87, the New York State Thruway from the City of New York to Exit 23, at minimum. Where it is 6 lanes, it needs to be 8 lanes and where it is 4 lanes it needs to be 6 lanes. Will it happen? Only if gold is found in the mountains.
My interpretation of this topic is that it relates to roads that were underbuilt for the traffic loads existing at the time of construction or soon after. A road that is clogged up 50 years after opening wasn't underbuilt; it was outgrown.
submitted for consideration
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 28, 2015, 09:51:22 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on May 28, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on May 28, 2015, 05:10:19 PM
NJ29 in trenton after the tunnel.
Were that a freeway just like the other portions of 29, Trenton would have no access to it's waterfront area.
I meant the section after the stop lights. that seems to flood relatively easily and has some odd merging.
It hasn't flooded in several years. The flooding occurred during some of the wettest years on record in the area, so it was more of a fluke that it flooded a few years in a row.
The merging is due to the old design of the highway; designs which were fairly common in its era.
That said, early on before the tunnel was built there was talk to make it full freeway past Trenton Thunder and the building there, but was quickly abandoned. IMO, that was a mistake, because now people have to deal with quite a bit of traffic whether they be driving or walking.
One could argue that had WWII not happened, we would have had the turnpike tunnel twinnings sooner in PA. Those roads were underbuilt due to cost.
For a road that is outright underbuilt for what it was used for, or was overwhelmed soon after opening... The Great Egg Harbor Bridge which was only two lanes until the 1970s, and has been overwhelmed every summer since opening in the 50s.
When John Young Parkway was widened in Southern Orange County to six lanes. The County Commissioners knew at the time the constant growth to Southchase and Hunters Creek, yet chose that instead of 8 lanes there which is what it really needed. They at least did it right between the FL 528 and Sand Lake Road, but from FL 528 to Kissimmee it is a nightmare.
Man O'War Boulevard in Lexington. Should have been a full freeway southern bypass of Lexington. Now it's a traffic-light-infested PITA.
I-83 between the Northern Terminus and milepost 34. It's a slowdown full of idiots not knowing how to handle curves, extreme weaving, accidents everywhere, construction everywhere, substandard interchange geometry, and four total lanes. Topping it all off, it's so bumpy it feels like you're trying to drive over rolling boulders.
I-95 through all of SW CT is definitely underbuilt. Of course, it was built with 1950s-1960s traffic standards in mind. Today it's 6 lanes with the exception of the short 8 lane sections in Bridgeport and in the future, New Haven and Norwalk. Today it could use at least 8-10 lanes but that probably will never happen due to how dense the area around I-95 is.
Another example in CT I can think of is CT 8. In some areas it could definitely use a widening to 6 lanes. The original plan was that all I-84 bound traffic would use CT 25 (CT 25 now ends as a freeway in Trumbull) if it was ever finished. That's why CT 25 is 6 lanes wide versus CT 8 which is 4 lanes. I think ConnDOT plans on upgrading the freeway soon, but no widening is planned for it.
To show you why I-83 feels underbuilt, look at what their mission is. Shows you how many years that construction has not been done in that area.
"The I-83 mainline and ramps will require reconstruction for a number of reasons: first, to correct the problem of deteriorating pavement; second, to add capacity; and third, to apply current design criteria to the roadway geometry. The minimum operational requirements are: design to Interstate standards; 60 mph design speed on the mainline; and three through lanes in each direction between Interchanges."
From http://www.i-83beltway.com/masterplan.html
I know that I-71's northern terminus around the MetroHealth curve became under-built when I-90 West out of Cleveland was finally completed. That's when the I-71 North traffic to East I-90/Innerbelt was reduced from 3 to 2 thru lanes, as now there was I-90 traffic that needed to merge onto the Innerbelt.
That whole Metrohealth Curve area was a very narrow strip of land in which to build on, hence the double decking of I-71 North over the northern terminus of the Jennings Freeway (SR-176). In the mid 60s when it was constructed, I-71 was wedged between the actual Metrohealth Hospital grounds to the west and the J&L steel mill to the east.
The original section of the Jennings Freeway was under-built as well when it was opened in the late 60s. Some of it was also because of a narrow ROW (J&L Steel on the east & Riverside Cemetery on the west) which only allowed 2-lanes in each direction, but IMHO, there was too much short-sightedness as to how much traffic the Jennings would potentially handle when it was completed.
The remainder of the Jennings Freeway, which was finally completed and opened in 1999, is 3-lanes each way, which now creates a bottleneck at Denison Avenue where the old section began.
I would think that in about 15-25 years, once the entire stretch of the Innerbelt is finally rebuilt, there will be a call for ODOT to rebuild the whole I-71/SR-176 Metrohealth curve section. Now that the steel mill is long gone, they should have the room to add lanes to both the Jennings and northbound I-71.
Is not I-95 in Jasper County, SC underbuilt? Bottlenecks due to the roadway being only four lanes with the many tourists using the interstate to get to Florida. South of US 17 you have the traffic from the coastal US 17 mix with the already busy I-95 and it slows down the flow from Point South to the GA border. Even in GA its six lanes right up to the SC Line where it drops to 4 lanes.
I-71 in Louisville from the Kennedy interchange (I-65, I-64, and I-71) to I-265. It should have been at least 3 lanes in each direction if not 4 lanes in each direction from I-65 and I-64 to I-264.
I-81 through much of PA. So. Many. Trucks. So. Few. Lanes. :banghead: It really should have been foreseen that this freeway would become a major artery of commerce for the northeast... It's practically a northern I-85. Four lanes is just ridiculous. Should be 6 lanes MD to Harrisburg, 8 around Harrisburg, and 6 to at least I-78, if not farther.
Quote from: wxfree on May 28, 2015, 10:08:33 PM
My interpretation of this topic is that it relates to roads that were underbuilt for the traffic loads existing at the time of construction or soon after. A road that is clogged up 50 years after opening wasn't underbuilt; it was outgrown.
submitted for consideration
Agreed
I'd wonder if I-93 through Franconia Notch would qualify, seeing as it was purposely built as a Super-2 when four lanes was the standard for Interstates. I doubt traffic counts would agree with that assessment, though... I'd almost call it underbuilt, but only compared to prevailing standards and not to actual need.
Quote from: Darkchylde on May 31, 2015, 11:41:35 PM
I'd wonder if I-93 through Franconia Notch would qualify, seeing as it was purposely built as a Super-2 when four lanes was the standard for Interstates. I doubt traffic counts would agree with that assessment, though... I'd almost call it underbuilt, but only compared to prevailing standards and not to actual need.
I think the problem with I-93 in that area is the fact that it's situated on a mountain, and they didn't want to ruin it's serenity that a 4-6 lane freeway would bring. I believe it was mostly a compromise.
Quote from: Zeffy on May 31, 2015, 11:43:58 PM
Quote from: Darkchylde on May 31, 2015, 11:41:35 PM
I'd wonder if I-93 through Franconia Notch would qualify, seeing as it was purposely built as a Super-2 when four lanes was the standard for Interstates. I doubt traffic counts would agree with that assessment, though... I'd almost call it underbuilt, but only compared to prevailing standards and not to actual need.
I think the problem with I-93 in that area is the fact that it's situated on a mountain, and they didn't want to ruin it's serenity that a 4-6 lane freeway would bring. I believe it was mostly a compromise.
Not disputing that, but it was still purposely underbuilt as compared to prevailing Interstate standards of the time.
I-295 east beltway in Jacksonville. The area just north of the 9b (future I-795) the drop from 4 lanes to 2 brings traffic to a standstill every morning. The road opened less than 10 years ago
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2015, 09:50:06 PM
Interstate 66 inside the Capital Beltway. It was deliberately underbuilt (two lanes per side for most of the segment) to overcome local opposition to building anything at all.
Now the same people bitch about the traffic backups.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 28, 2015, 04:36:44 PM
iBallasticwolf2 started a topic about overbuilt roads. What roads do you believe were underbuilt?
I had to laugh when US 169 south of Minneapolis to Shakopee was built. 4 lane divided highway that was built with stoplights and immediately overpacked from day 1. So they had to spend more money & time building it up again several years later.
Quote from: 1995hooPeople do drive, frequently, for things other than work. I don't think it's reasonable to consider non-work travel "exceptional" or "unusual" as froggie's response to my comment seems to suggest.
It's very reasonable, considering that only about 20% of all trips are commutes or work-related. And it was already factored in. The data I mentioned previously was for ALL vehicle trips. Half of ALL vehicle trips are 4 miles or less.
Quote from: texaskdogI had to laugh when US 169 south of Minneapolis to Shakopee was built. 4 lane divided highway that was built with stoplights and immediately overpacked from day 1. So they had to spend more money & time building it up again several years later.
Monte Castleman has used this example often, including on this forum. Eden Prairie opposed interchanges initially. And since the state's Municipal Consent law means the project required Eden Prairie approval, traffic signals were included. But that's only part of it. MnDOT didn't have the funding at the time to eliminate the signals at 494...that only came a few years ago.
Quote from: CentralPAguy on May 30, 2015, 10:57:22 PM
I-81 through much of PA. So. Many. Trucks. So. Few. Lanes. :banghead: It really should have been foreseen that this freeway would become a major artery of commerce for the northeast... It's practically a northern I-85. Four lanes is just ridiculous. Should be 6 lanes MD to Harrisburg, 8 around Harrisburg, and 6 to at least I-78, if not farther.
It's fine where it is. Traffic only starts to get heavier (but not too heavy) on the Capital Beltway concurrency. East of the concurrency, traffic lightens up.
Quote from: CentralPAguy on May 30, 2015, 10:57:22 PM
pretty much all of I-81 through much of PA. So. Many. Trucks. So. Few. Lanes.
fixed.
i'm not looking forward to that part of my drive to TN later this month.
Quote from: odditude on June 01, 2015, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: CentralPAguy on May 30, 2015, 10:57:22 PM
pretty much all of I-81 through much of PA. So. Many. Trucks. So. Few. Lanes.
fixed.
i'm not looking forward to that part of my drive to TN later this month.
It's actually not that bad north of the I-78 junction. Traffic lightens up.
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 01, 2015, 10:23:46 PM
It's actually not that bad north of the I-78 junction. Traffic lightens up.
Until it intersects I-80. Then truck counts (and local car traffic in the Scranton-Wilkes Barre area) pick up again until Binghamton.