AARoads Forum

This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

Will there be any fallout from this controversy regarding road names and other geographical/geopolitical matters?

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

What about Lee Highway, especially in Virginia where US 11 is named Lee Highway for most of its distance? Will there be a demand to change the name of the road named after the Confederate general?

I know of at least three high schools in Kentucky whose teams are nicknamed "Rebels." In the past there has been some outcry for some of those schools to change their mascots (most notably by a now-dead Jesse Jackson wannabe from the Louisville/Shelbyville area). I expect that effort to start back up.

Even before the church shooting (going back at least some years), there's been occasional rumblings about renaming Jefferson Davis Highway (US 1) in parts of Northern Virginia.

I've always found it curious that it's Jeff Davis Hwy in Prince William, Alexandria, and Arlington, but Richmond Hwy in Fairfax County.  Mapmikey recently did some research on the names and the conclusion is that the Richmond Hwy name came first.

If we can keep the politics out of this, I'm sure this thread will generate quite a list of roads, towns, counties, parks and so on that are named for various CSA figures, particularly Lee, Davis, and Jackson.    Pretty common, even some outside the South proper.  I could name dozens and dozens. 

And, bluntly, if you are going to judge the people of the past according to current PC standards, you are not going to stop feeling superior to the dead with the CSA.  Give my anybody and I can find some thing they did or said that is currently out of fashion.   Are we going to end up with counties named 1 through howmanyever because no one is worthy of honoring?

A few years ago I went to a history seminar at my local college.  I went because a politician I admired was giving a non-political lecture.  But I sat through the prelims.  One of the things was several grad students presenting papers.  One guy pretty much presented a talk about Pres. Wilson and judeged him by modern societial standards.  The profs just ate him alive.  The dean said something like "the study of history is the study of a society as it was, not the application of our values to the past."  Yep, I agree.

The best analogy I can find is early America.  Especially Virginia.  Half the counties in Virginia are named for British royality, as is the state itself.  Also plenty of streets and roads.  Also in some other east coast states.  Now the people of1789 didn't go around renaming all of those places, now did they.

Actually I bet 75% of people in a typical county could not tell the first name of whoever their county was named for, or what he (or she) did  to deserve it.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM

I know of at least three high schools in Kentucky whose teams are nicknamed "Rebels." In the past there has been some outcry for some of those schools to change their mascots (most notably by a now-dead Jesse Jackson wannabe from the Louisville/Shelbyville area). I expect that effort to start back up.

My hometown, Muncie, Indiana, had a Southside High School, which had the ill-chosen nickname Rebels. The school opened in 1962 and closed in 2014. They adopted the Stars and Bars as the official school flag. In the '60s they mounted a Confederate-uniformed student on horseback during football games. The horse trotted the sidelines, waving the flag to rally the fans.

Needless to say, the flag was a huge point of contention between white and black students for many years. It led to many ugly events in and out of the school. Its use was one point included in a discrimination lawsuit filed against Muncie schools in the '70s. Use of the flag was mercifully limited in later years.

Perhaps some localities will consider "renaming" things for other people with the same last name. There is precedent for that: Washington state's King County was originally named for slave-holding Vice-President William Rufus King. The namesake was changed to Dr. Martin Luther King in 2005: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_County,_Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_County,_Washington).

How about (Spike) Lee County?  :nod:

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

Will there be any fallout from this controversy regarding road names and other geographical/geopolitical matters?

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

What about Lee Highway, especially in Virginia where US 11 is named Lee Highway for most of its distance? Will there be a demand to change the name of the road named after the Confederate general?

Many things named "Lee" also fit under Richard Henry Lee and Lighthorse Harry Lee as well, both from the Revolutionary War.

Now, things named specifically for Jefferson Davis (such as Jefferson Davis Parish, LA) on the other hand...

It's probably going to depend on the individual case. For example in Chicago, I'd say that most people refer to the former North Western Station as Ogilvie these days. On the other hand, I've only ever heard a child refer to the Sears Tower as the Willis Tower. The split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

I'd not at all be surprised to find out that the Lee/Davis/Jackson stuff staying with the same name. Jefferson Davis Parish, LA, might be another story.

It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 26, 2015, 05:06:06 PM
It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

Hmmmmm...:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-03-11/news/1995070104_1_marchers-montgomery-wallace

Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 26, 2015, 05:06:06 PM
It be nice to get George Wallace's name off of stuff in Alabama.  Makes the state look bad to have all that traffic on I-10 going through a tunnel named after an unapologetic racist asshole.  Reminds everyone how extremely popular he was not incredibly long ago.

Unapologetic?  I guess you don't know he came to renounce his racism.  Whether or not Wallace is a  good person to honor, we ought to salute people who step out from behind the excuses of history to do the right thing.  People who learn are good examples.

Lee might get cut some slack.  In his own time he was respected by even his enemies, held himself as a gentleman throughout, and lost with dignity.  The "execrable commerce" his side stood for, however, will not allow these facts to stand alone.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

This is only for clarification:  the furor is in regards of the Battle Flag, which is not the Stars & Bars nor the official flag of the Confederacy.  Source Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America)

South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

Wasn't the Jefferson Davis Highway one of the original named roads, like the Lincoln Highway or the Midland Trail or the Dixie Highway? (And, coincidentally, the Lee Highway?)

I heard a rumble out of one of the Capitol area 'usual suspects' in Madison, WI about wanting to rename the city.  Why?  James Madison owned slaves.

:rolleyes:

Mike

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on June 26, 2015, 10:24:07 PM
South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

Jefferson Davis Highway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis_Highway) is US 1 through the state.  There are several markers that still exist along the route and some former legs; one of which is located on the state house grounds, on the side US 1 travels by on.  Here's a picture I took of it:

Quote from: WashuOtaku on June 27, 2015, 04:56:39 AM

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on June 26, 2015, 10:24:07 PM
South Carolina has Calhoun County and Lee County. No way those are getting renamed. I'm sure there are roads named after them too. Interestingly enough, however, I don't think SC has a Jefferson Davis Highway. If it does, I've never seen it.

Jefferson Davis Highway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis_Highway) is US 1 through the state.  There are several markers that still exist along the route and some former legs; one of which is located on the state house grounds, on the side US 1 travels by on.  Here's a picture I took of it:

Thanks. It only makes sense for SC to name US-1 after Jefferson Davis. I also know SC has a town called Dixiana southeast of Columbia.

At any rate, I've always found it far more useful for US routes to be named after the cities they connect to than for famous people. SC has Charleston Highway, Augusta Highway, Columbia Highway, etc. I'd wager there are a lot of people out there, even in the local areas, who don't even know who Jefferson Davis is.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

Honestly if Kentucky were to go to the expense of renaming a county, I would hope it would just combine the county with one of its neighbors.  Given how Owsley County has been depopulating perhaps it would be a good candidate for consolidation with Lee County.  Kentucky has way too many counties.

As a side note I audited the Owsley County Clerk's office a couple of times.  Sid Gabbard's legal troubles did not surprise me at all.

Quote from: Zzonkmiles on June 27, 2015, 07:15:50 AM
Thanks. It only makes sense for SC to name US-1 after Jefferson Davis. I also know SC has a town called Dixiana southeast of Columbia.

At any rate, I've always found it far more useful for US routes to be named after the cities they connect to than for famous people. SC has Charleston Highway, Augusta Highway, Columbia Highway, etc. I'd wager there are a lot of people out there, even in the local areas, who don't even know who Jefferson Davis is.

The Jefferson Davis Highway was part of the old Auto-Trail system that traversed between San Diego, California and Washington, D.C.  When U.S. Highways were established, they followed these auto trails.  Another example is US 25, which overlaps the Dixie Highway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Highway).

A vast majority of these roads don't identify with the former Auto-Trail anymore, going instead of the U.S. or State highway it traverses along now.

As for renaming cities and counties, that is very unlikely to happen.  I know there are groups intent to whitewash history, but unless it's real offensive, it's not going to happen.

This isn't a road thing, but the one thing in my area of the country that comes to mind is that one of the residential colleges at Yale is Calhoun College, named for John C. Calhoun.  The name has been controversial for a long time, and a bit surprising to find on such a liberal campus.

Quote from: dgolub on June 27, 2015, 10:03:49 AM
This isn't a road thing, but the one thing in my area of the country that comes to mind is that one of the residential colleges at Yale is Calhoun College, named for John C. Calhoun.  The name has been controversial for a long time, and a bit surprising to find on such a liberal campus.

Please try to keep this thread about highways in general, otherwise it will likely be moved to "Off Topic" by admin.

What do you think would become of the "Adopt A Highway" signs if the roads were being maintained by entities like Sons of Confederate Veterans or something similar?

Quote from: sipes23 on June 26, 2015, 03:37:54 PMThe split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

It would be different for a building that actually houses some part of a corporation.

Also, a county in South Dakota was just recently renamed because it was named for a man who helped swindle Native Americans out of their land.

Quote from: bandit957 on June 27, 2015, 08:29:40 PM

Quote from: sipes23 on June 26, 2015, 03:37:54 PMThe split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

It would be different for a building that actually houses some part of a corporation.

So then what would you call Wrigley Field?

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on June 27, 2015, 10:44:24 PM
So then what would you call Wrigley Field?

Wrigley Field was named for Mr. Wrigley himself, not his gum company.

Quote from: tidecat on June 27, 2015, 08:16:44 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

Honestly if Kentucky were to go to the expense of renaming a county, I would hope it would just combine the county with one of its neighbors.  Given how Owsley County has been depopulating perhaps it would be a good candidate for consolidation with Lee County.  Kentucky has way too many counties.

As a side note I audited the Owsley County Clerk's office a couple of times.  Sid Gabbard's legal troubles did not surprise me at all.

Lee and Owsley have too much of a rivalry -- not limited to just high school sports -- for such a consolidation to ever go over, although I would be in favor of it because it would be logical.

Sid Gabbard's problems were well-known even before he was indicted.

Quote from: mgk920 on June 27, 2015, 10:44:24 PM
So then what would you call Wrigley Field?

Mike

The Stadium Above Which a World Series Championship Flag Will Never Again Be Hoisted.

:-D

Quote from: bandit957 on June 27, 2015, 08:29:40 PM

Quote from: sipes23 on June 26, 2015, 03:37:54 PMThe split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

It would be different for a building that actually houses some part of a corporation.

Or if the ballpark is named after the family business. Wrigley, Miller, Coors and Busch all come to mind. And yes I still call them Comiskey and Jacobs.

Quote from: hobsini2 on June 28, 2015, 12:33:12 PM
Or if the ballpark is named after the family business. Wrigley, Miller, Coors and Busch all come to mind. And yes I still call them Comiskey and Jacobs.

I think the old Busch Stadium was named after the person. I think the new "Busch Stadium" is named after the company.

Either way. Lol I an perfectly fine with last names on ballparks and stadiums vs corporate bullshit names like PNC Park.

Busch Stadium II was actually called Busch Memorial Stadium until 1981, when it was shortened to Busch Stadium.
Busch Stadium I was what Sportsman's Park was called after 1953.

Quote from: hobsini2 on June 28, 2015, 01:33:35 PM
Either way. Lol I an perfectly fine with last names on ballparks and stadiums vs corporate bullshit names like PNC Park.

For me, even corporate names are fine if the company has tangible, venerable and beneficial ties to the community. Changing names every few years is a top sign that your corporation doesn't meet this description...


iPhone

Quote from: hbelkins on June 26, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
This is not meant to be a political thread, but there is relevance to this community.

As a byproduct of the church shooting in South Carolina and the furor over the Stars & Bars, there's discussion about the future of other commemorations of the Confederacy. For instance, moving the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of Kentucky's capitol is under consideration.

Will there be any fallout from this controversy regarding road names and other geographical/geopolitical matters?

For instance, I live in Lee County, Ky., which is named after Robert E. Lee. Should the county be renamed?

What about Lee Highway, especially in Virginia where US 11 is named Lee Highway for most of its distance? Will there be a demand to change the name of the road named after the Confederate general?

I know of at least three high schools in Kentucky whose teams are nicknamed "Rebels." In the past there has been some outcry for some of those schools to change their mascots (most notably by a now-dead Jesse Jackson wannabe from the Louisville/Shelbyville area). I expect that effort to start back up.

Southside Rebels (Ft Smith) are wanting to change, much to the consternation of the local rednecks.

Quote from: bandit957 on June 27, 2015, 08:29:40 PM

Quote from: sipes23 on June 26, 2015, 03:37:54 PMThe split between Comiskey Park and U.S. Cellular Field is somewhere between.

It's an insult to the sport to refer to a sports venue by its corporate name. Riverfront Stadium is gone now, but never ever EVER refer to it as "Cinergy Field."

Ever.

I'm just glad that, as of yet, no major road to my knowledge is named by a corporate sponsor. I'd vomit if I saw some Main St in Anytown to be renamed Google Drive or have the Stevenson renamed the Starbucks Freeway...

Now that it occurs to me, the street I live on had its name changed at some point from Lee to Grant.


iPhone

I doubt that we will see many changes. Most of the places that  have this kind of name aren't places that really care about the message the names send.

Although they probably should, in my opinion. Having toponyms  from Confederate leaders in active use makes outsiders connect the area with Confederate values, even if the present-day residents don't actually agree with them so much. You might say that's ignorant, but I wouldn't locate my business in Jefferson Davis County because I don't want to be mistaken for supporting racist values.

There are the beginnings of a debate in IL about changing the name of Calhoun County, a delightfully quirky county that is separated from the rest of the state by the Illinois River and whose main 3 points of access are two state operated ferry boats and one of the two remaining lift bridges on the state highway system.

There have been grumblings now about the Massachusetts seal, flag, and motto in the wake of the Confederate flag debate, which makes me wonder if the kids in Amherst are again demanding the town shed the name of a British officer who is said to have knowingly given smallpox-infected blankets to eliminate the local natives.

This would be a very interesting topic for social geographers to analyze over the next couple of months

I'm surprised no one has wanted to take down the Dixie Highway plaque in Asheville, NC, especially since it has Robert E. Lee's picture on it. Then again, it's literally in the shadow of the Zebulon Vance Monument, a 50- foot tall obelisk honoring North Carolina's Civil War-era governor who was from Asheville.

Wade Hampton no more: Alaska census area honoring Confederate officer is renamed (http://www.adn.com/article/20150702/wade-hampton-no-more-alaska-census-area-named-confederate-officer-gets-new-moniker)

Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis is probably the city's most famous and well-known lake (if you're a football fan, I can guarantee you've seen it during Vikings games when networks shoot commercial bump footage across the lake toward the skyline). There have been pushes to rename it before and not surprisingly another one has come up in the last couple weeks, but they never go anywhere.

 We are going down a slippery slope  when  we  start sugar coating history  to fit the passing mores  of the decade.  Thanks to Ben Affleck and his  long ago ancestors  who were slave owners,  we no longer have a great show about ancestry on PBS.  History is history, good or bad, you can't change it or make it disappear.

Quote from: Purgatory On Wheels on July 03, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
Wade Hampton no more: Alaska census area honoring Confederate officer is renamed (http://www.adn.com/article/20150702/wade-hampton-no-more-alaska-census-area-named-confederate-officer-gets-new-moniker)

Honestly if Alaska hadn't done this, most Americans wouldn't know who Wade Hampton was.

Quote from: sandiaman on July 03, 2015, 02:02:14 PM
We are going down a slippery slope  when  we  start sugar coating history  to fit the passing mores  of the decade.  Thanks to Ben Affleck and his  long ago ancestors  who were slave owners,  we no longer have a great show about ancestry on PBS.  History is history, good or bad, you can't change it or make it disappear.

History's still there in the books if you want it. That doesn't mean we have to keep names honoring people we no longer see as honorable any more.

Same thing for the $20 bill discussion going on in off-topic. Jackson is a part of US history, yes, and at the time he was placed on the $20 bill he was considered worth honoring. But the US is not the same country it was in 1928, and now we find some of his actions to be less than honorable, so some people want to have him replaced with someone who better fits what 2015 America stands for. That's not sugarcoating history, that's growing and evolving.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2015, 08:23:51 PMThat's not sugarcoating history, that's growing and evolving.

Well put.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2015, 08:23:51 PM

Quote from: sandiaman on July 03, 2015, 02:02:14 PM
We are going down a slippery slope  when  we  start sugar coating history  to fit the passing mores  of the decade.  Thanks to Ben Affleck and his  long ago ancestors  who were slave owners,  we no longer have a great show about ancestry on PBS.  History is history, good or bad, you can't change it or make it disappear.

History's still there in the books if you want it. That doesn't mean we have to keep names honoring people we no longer see as honorable any more.

Same thing for the $20 bill discussion going on in off-topic. Jackson is a part of US history, yes, and at the time he was placed on the $20 bill he was considered worth honoring. But the US is not the same country it was in 1928, and now we find some of his actions to be less than honorable, so some people want to have him replaced with someone who better fits what 2015 America stands for. That's not sugarcoating history, that's growing and evolving.

FWIAO, Jackson was used because he was a hero of the War of 1812.

Mike

I was born and raised in Robeson County, North Carolina. [url]http://ncvisitorcenter.com/Col.html/url] <------------- That article right there could rename the county I was born in.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on June 30, 2015, 05:47:49 PM
There have been grumblings now about the Massachusetts seal, flag, and motto in the wake of the Confederate flag debate, which makes me wonder if the kids in Amherst are again demanding the town shed the name of a British officer who is said to have knowingly given smallpox-infected blankets to eliminate the local natives.

As a former "kid in Amherst," I have to say that I'm actually saddened that Amherst has been steadily losing its liberal edge.  It's not half as hippie as it used to be when I lived there.

I don't think they ever got around to re-naming "Squaw Peak" north of Pittsfield.  That was another controversial place name.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 03, 2015, 01:43:57 PM
Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis is probably the city's most famous and well-known lake (if you're a football fan, I can guarantee you've seen it during Vikings games when networks shoot commercial bump footage across the lake toward the skyline). There have been pushes to rename it before and not surprisingly another one has come up in the last couple weeks, but they never go anywhere.

Assuming it was named in honor of John C. Calhoun of South Carolina, who was U.S. Vice President and died 11 years before the Civil War.   :banghead:

Quote from: mgk920 on July 05, 2015, 10:44:41 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2015, 08:23:51 PM

Quote from: sandiaman on July 03, 2015, 02:02:14 PM
We are going down a slippery slope  when  we  start sugar coating history  to fit the passing mores  of the decade.  Thanks to Ben Affleck and his  long ago ancestors  who were slave owners,  we no longer have a great show about ancestry on PBS.  History is history, good or bad, you can't change it or make it disappear.

History's still there in the books if you want it. That doesn't mean we have to keep names honoring people we no longer see as honorable any more.

Same thing for the $20 bill discussion going on in off-topic. Jackson is a part of US history, yes, and at the time he was placed on the $20 bill he was considered worth honoring. But the US is not the same country it was in 1928, and now we find some of his actions to be less than honorable, so some people want to have him replaced with someone who better fits what 2015 America stands for. That's not sugarcoating history, that's growing and evolving.

FWIAO, Jackson was used because he was a hero of the War of 1812.

Mike

And that's fine. Nobody says that Jackson was all bad, but in 1928 we had a much less negative view of his impact on the Native Americans than we do today. Back then, we treated the Native Americans like they were barely human. Now they have a real seat at the table in American society, and so we no longer see Jackson the same way. We've grown to see him differently than we did.

And I think the same thing may happen with the Confederacy, its flag, and its leaders.

QuoteAssuming it was named in honor of John C. Calhoun of South Carolina, who was U.S. Vice President and died 11 years before the Civil War.

...and was also one of the chief proponents of slavery and the slave trade in Congress.  And went so far as to argue secession while he was in the Senate.

Quote from: tidecat on July 03, 2015, 05:46:08 PM

Quote from: Purgatory On Wheels on July 03, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
Wade Hampton no more: Alaska census area honoring Confederate officer is renamed (http://www.adn.com/article/20150702/wade-hampton-no-more-alaska-census-area-named-confederate-officer-gets-new-moniker)

Honestly if Alaska hadn't done this, most Americans wouldn't know who Wade Hampton was.

I never understood why it was named after him in the first place; Alaska's about as far from South Carolina as you can get, and Hampton wasn't a major national political figure in the same way as most people who get far-flung counties named for them (and that's before you even get into how closely his political career was associated with violent racism). Kusilvak is a nice locally-inspired name that makes a lot more sense.

Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on July 07, 2015, 12:12:58 AM

Quote from: tidecat on July 03, 2015, 05:46:08 PM

Quote from: Purgatory On Wheels on July 03, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
Wade Hampton no more: Alaska census area honoring Confederate officer is renamed (http://www.adn.com/article/20150702/wade-hampton-no-more-alaska-census-area-named-confederate-officer-gets-new-moniker)

Honestly if Alaska hadn't done this, most Americans wouldn't know who Wade Hampton was.

I never understood why it was named after him in the first place; Alaska's about as far from South Carolina as you can get, and Hampton wasn't a major national political figure in the same way as most people who get far-flung counties named for them (and that's before you even get into how closely his political career was associated with violent racism).

Wikipedia (FWIW) indicates the name came from Hampton's son-in-law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusilvak_Census_Area,_Alaska), who became a territorial judge in Nome and gave Hampton's name to a nearby mining district that ultimately became the census area.

I just had an idea, but it probably won't fly: What if they censored all the Confederate memorials and objects by blurring them like they do private parts on TV? That way, we would be less offended, though we know that they're still there.

Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2015, 11:41:51 AM
I just had an idea, but it probably won't fly: What if they censored all the Confederate memorials and objects by blurring them like they do private parts on TV? That way, we would be less offended, though we know that they're still there.

It wouldn't fly because it misses the point, that celebrating the symbols of a society built on using a class of people as beasts of burden necessarily implies some endorsement of that practice.  The flag isn't visually offensive, but rather its meaning is offensive, especially to folks who still suffer the consequences of slavery and a hundred years of legal subjugation after it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 06, 2015, 07:57:38 PM
And that's fine. Nobody says that Jackson was all bad, but in 1928 we had a much less negative view of his impact on the Native Americans than we do today. Back then, we treated the Native Americans like they were barely human. Now they have a real seat at the table in American society, and so we no longer see Jackson the same way. We've grown to see him differently than we did.

And I think the same thing may happen with the Confederacy, its flag, and its leaders.

So is it time to demand that the Democrats rename their annual party dinners, which are called Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners? (Republicans have Lincoln Day dinners, in comparison).

Quote from: hbelkins on July 07, 2015, 03:21:39 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 06, 2015, 07:57:38 PM
And that's fine. Nobody says that Jackson was all bad, but in 1928 we had a much less negative view of his impact on the Native Americans than we do today. Back then, we treated the Native Americans like they were barely human. Now they have a real seat at the table in American society, and so we no longer see Jackson the same way. We've grown to see him differently than we did.

And I think the same thing may happen with the Confederacy, its flag, and its leaders.

So is it time to demand that the Democrats rename their annual party dinners, which are called Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners? (Republicans have Lincoln Day dinners, in comparison).

The best thing, of course, would be for everyone regardless of affiliation to take a long hard look at how and when they've chosen to face or ignore centuries of savage treatment of humans, including in the nearly always callous realm of partisan politics is involved. 

When it starts being used as a partisan political lever, it doesn't exactly honor the dehumanization of millions of victims.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 07, 2015, 03:21:39 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 06, 2015, 07:57:38 PM
And that's fine. Nobody says that Jackson was all bad, but in 1928 we had a much less negative view of his impact on the Native Americans than we do today. Back then, we treated the Native Americans like they were barely human. Now they have a real seat at the table in American society, and so we no longer see Jackson the same way. We've grown to see him differently than we did.

And I think the same thing may happen with the Confederacy, its flag, and its leaders.

So is it time to demand that the Democrats rename their annual party dinners, which are called Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners? (Republicans have Lincoln Day dinners, in comparison).

The best thing, of course, would be for everyone regardless of affiliation to take a long hard look at how and when they've chosen to face or ignore centuries of savage treatment of humans, including in the nearly always callous realm of partisan politics is involved. 

When it starts being used as a partisan political lever, it doesn't exactly honor the dehumanization of millions of victims.

Mississippi has many place names that people could possibly find objectionable. My own high school used to be called the Rebels and also had the confederate flag. The flag was removed in the 1990s, while the Rebels gave way to Patriots sometime during the last decade. Of course, there's the Ole Miss Rebels. While there's been no real movement to change the nickname, the school doesn't officially use the confederate flag, and disassociated itself with the Colonel Reb mascot.

Elsewhere, we have Lee County, Jefferson Davis County and Forrest County. Forrest County is named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, founder of the Ku Klux Klan. In addition, we have the Ross Barnett Resevoir and Paul B. Johnson State Park, both named for segregationist governors.

In WV, hardly a Confederate state, applying 20/20 hindsight of modern morals to previous times, would pretty much require us to just number our counties 1-55, just over slavery, let alone whatever historical revision is next demanded.  The way it worked in old Virginia was, as the west was settled, counties were subdivided and whoever was the outgoing governor got the new one named for him (Tennessee and Kentucky are in a similar situation, as is southwestern Virginia, obviously), and almost all governors of old Virginia owned slaves. 

The biographical material for most is pretty thin, but almost all were slave owners.  I come up with at least 22 counties named for slave owners.  That is a low number.

Turning to education, in addition to single school for the whole county high schools named for some of the aforementioned counties, there are several more named for slave owners.  And then there is Marshall University.  John Marshall owned slaves.    And MU has a Jenkins Hall, named for Gen. Albert Gallatin Jenkins, CSA.  The state also maintains his home, Green Bottom, and flies the first Confederate flag there, as it does Grape Hill, the home of Gen. John McCausland, CSA.  Via WVU (and the records are unclear as to the slave owning status of the Woodburn family, which WVU was established on the grounds of a pre-war "female seminary" (a place where people sent off their pregnant unmarried daughters) and which the oldest building is Woodburn Hall) maintains Jackson's Mill, the plantation of Stonewall Jackson.   And then there is Shepherd University, named for Shepherdstown, named for, you guessed it, a slave owner.  And Alderson-Broaddus U, who are the Battlers.  Named for the Battle of Philippi, which the CSA won.

There is still one HS that is the Rebels, all-white Tolsia.  The two historic ones, Mullens, which, post desegregation was in a 40% black town, and Stonewall Jackson, which served the poorer, majority black, part of Charleston, are still around as middle schools, and are still the Rebels. 

And Logan High is the Wildcats.  Not named for the cat (although it uses cat imagery today) but for the Logan Wildcats.  Wildcat being a CSA term from irregular forces (the Kentucky Wildcats are probably likewise so named).

And that leaves out the 1000s of things named for the Grand Kleagle.

Maybe we should let the past lay where it is.

Some political figures in modern times weren't so great, but they have roads and other public landmarks named for them. I hope this can be corrected.

There is a road that goes through my hometown for which some legislators passed a resolution naming it for a political figure who is much disdained. (I'm not going to say who, because I don't want to start a political debate.) I don't think the state highway department recognized this naming, but it's still disrespectful to me to name the portion of this road through my hometown for him. I can understand if they named the portion through other local communities for him, but not in my town.

Then there are politicians who are really just bad people. I can think of a major road in another state that's named for a still-living politician who truly probably is not a good guy.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 08, 2015, 07:07:29 AM
And Logan High is the Wildcats.  Not named for the cat (although it uses cat imagery today) but for the Logan Wildcats.  Wildcat being a CSA term from irregular forces (the Kentucky Wildcats are probably likewise so named).

Nope. The nickname comes from a description that the team "fought like wildcats" by a sportswriter way back when, in the days when the team didn't have a nickname.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 08, 2015, 11:46:35 AM
There is a road that goes through my hometown for which some legislators passed a resolution naming it for a political figure who is much disdained. (I'm not going to say who, because I don't want to start a political debate.) I don't think the state highway department recognized this naming, but it's still disrespectful to me to name the portion of this road through my hometown for him. I can understand if they named the portion through other local communities for him, but not in my town.

Why would naming him start a political debate? And who disdains him besides you? And why not in your town? Just because you say so? And why would or should the legislature cater to your personal wishes about what would offend you?

If the General Assembly passed the resolution, then the state highway department most definitely recognizes the naming. I'm involved in the process and I can explain exactly how it works. If the General Assembly passes the resolution, the Transportation Cabinet is directed to install the signage within 30 days unless the sponsoring legislator requests a delay, most often for the purposes of a ceremony. (We had a situation here recently where a bridge was named by legislative resolution, the sign was erected, and then someone requested a dedication ceremony.) In these instances, the state pays for the signage. Once the resolution is introduced in the legislature, a pretty through investigation is done to see if the road or bridge is already named after someone else.

If the legislature is not in session, and someone wishes to  have a road or bridge named after someone, they have to get a county fiscal court or a city council to pass a resolution requesting such. After that is done, the resolution is forwarded to KYTC and an Official Order is issued. In these cases, the requesting local governmental body pays for the signs.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 01:37:30 PM
Why would naming him start a political debate? And who disdains him besides you?

The many people who voted for his opponents.

QuoteAnd why not in your town?

Because I've done a lot of work in my community to reverse his policies.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 08, 2015, 02:05:11 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 01:37:30 PM
Why would naming him start a political debate? And who disdains him besides you?

The many people who voted for his opponents.

QuoteAnd why not in your town?

Because I've done a lot of work in my community to reverse his policies.

Just spill it:  Who is it? :D

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 02:24:33 PM
Just spill it:  Who is it? :D

Here's a hint: He is a 2-term former President who is now deceased.

I was thinking it was Ronald Reagan all along.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 03:03:05 PM
I was thinking it was Ronald Reagan all along.

Yeah, me too.

But to address earlier comments:

Quote from: bandit957 on July 08, 2015, 02:05:11 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 01:37:30 PM
Why would naming him start a political debate? And who disdains him besides you?

The many people who voted for his opponents.

QuoteAnd why not in your town?

Because I've done a lot of work in my community to reverse his policies.

If every road named after a political figure had to be named after one elected unanimously, we wouldn't have any roads named after politicians. There's so much crap in the mountains named after Carl D. Perkins that it isn't funny, but I don't get all upset about it and act personally offended.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 08:48:20 PM
If every road named after a political figure had to be named after one elected unanimously, we wouldn't have any roads named after politicians.

The politician I'm referring to caused a lot of damage specifically to that town.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2015, 12:05:59 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 08:48:20 PM
If every road named after a political figure had to be named after one elected unanimously, we wouldn't have any roads named after politicians.

The politician I'm referring to caused a lot of damage specifically to that town.

You have me thinking of Nixon in Futurama now, stomping around with a robot suit.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2015, 12:05:59 AM

The politician I'm referring to caused a lot of damage specifically to that town.

How, exactly?

Quote from: hbelkins on July 07, 2015, 03:21:39 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 06, 2015, 07:57:38 PM
And that's fine. Nobody says that Jackson was all bad, but in 1928 we had a much less negative view of his impact on the Native Americans than we do today. Back then, we treated the Native Americans like they were barely human. Now they have a real seat at the table in American society, and so we no longer see Jackson the same way. We've grown to see him differently than we did.

And I think the same thing may happen with the Confederacy, its flag, and its leaders.

So is it time to demand that the Democrats rename their annual party dinners, which are called Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners? (Republicans have Lincoln Day dinners, in comparison).

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing, but sure. Although it shouldn't be demanded here, since it's beyond the remit of the forum.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 08, 2015, 01:37:30 PM
Once the resolution is introduced in the legislature, a pretty through investigation is done to see if the road or bridge is already named after someone else.

Now that's an interesting part of the process: is there a database somewhere that has a list of all of these things? What happens if there's a conflict (e.g. there's a bill passed saying KY 52 is named after Martin Van Coffeementioner, when it turns out that there was another law naming it the Julius W. Shoehorn Memorial Highway that the legislature didn't bother to look up?)

In Oklahoma, I think the laws merely direct ODOT to erect signage, meaning that they are under no obligation to replace it if it's damaged, so it tends to go away over time. Which is fortunate, since we get tons of roads named after random highway patrolmen that nobody knows anything about.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 10, 2015, 11:14:00 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2015, 12:05:59 AM

The politician I'm referring to caused a lot of damage specifically to that town.

How, exactly?

For one thing, he helped ruin the steel industry, which hurt steelworkers who lived there.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 11, 2015, 06:55:32 AM

Now that's an interesting part of the process: is there a database somewhere that has a list of all of these things? What happens if there's a conflict (e.g. there's a bill passed saying KY 52 is named after Martin Van Coffeementioner, when it turns out that there was another law naming it the Julius W. Shoehorn Memorial Highway that the legislature didn't bother to look up?)

Yes, there is a database. KYTC keeps a record of which roads are named by legislative action and which roads are named by local resolution. We had a situation this year where the legislature wanted to name a bridge after someone, but the bridge had already been named after someone else. So the legislator picked another nearby bridge to name.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 11, 2015, 06:49:36 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 07, 2015, 03:21:39 PM

So is it time to demand that the Democrats rename their annual party dinners, which are called Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners? (Republicans have Lincoln Day dinners, in comparison).

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing, but sure. Although it shouldn't be demanded here, since it's beyond the remit of the forum.

This actually happened. I heard late last week about a move somewhere to change the name of those fundraising dinners.