Why do city/town limits signs have population listed on them?
I have wondered this ever since I was a kid. I don't see what purpose it serves, and they have to regularly update them as well which costs somebody's time/money/attention.
Probably just for the curiosity of motorists. A better question is why elevation is (sometimes) displayed. Both can seem pointless, but have more or less become the standard. That's my guess anyways.
Elevation at least doesn't change.
I suspect civic ego has something to do with the population counts. But sometimes they provide useful information, where a city looks smallish from a freeway but there's a lot of people living just out of sight of motorists. For example, my wondering why Hamilton, Ontario has one of less than a dozen Canadian Football League teams, even with huge Toronto and its own CFL team in close proximity, was answered by the sign pointing out that Hamilton's population exceeds half a million, even though from the freeway it looks like just another one of Toronto's suburbs.
Quote from: english si on July 08, 2015, 02:52:58 AM
Elevation at least doesn't change.
Unless, of course, you move to a different spot in the city...
Quote from: english si on July 08, 2015, 02:52:58 AM
Elevation at least doesn't change.
Well it does, just extremely gradually...
Nevada lists elevation, but not population. We also list elevations of most mountain passes/summits (and give them names). When you travel long distances through a terrain like Nevada (where the predominant geography is basin and range no matter where you go), people are intrigued by the elevation changes between the passes and the towns in the valleys.
Elevation can also be useful in things like knowing how to calibrate your microwave oven.
Not all states have population listed on the city/village limit signs. Michigan does not list the population. Illinois does, as the only number on the sign (no "POP:") in front of it. In fact, you can see greenout on Illinois municipal limit signage. This is because the municipality in question had a special census.
I don't recall ever seeing a population sign in real life, only in movies/TV shows, which lead me to believe that it used to be done at some point and just made it into pop culture (I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
Quote from: bzakharin on July 09, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
I don't recall ever seeing a population sign in real life, only in movies/TV shows, which lead me to believe that it used to be done at some point and just made it into pop culture (I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
I've seen them in real life many times.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 09, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
I don't recall ever seeing a population sign in real life, only in movies/TV shows, which lead me to believe that it used to be done at some point and just made it into pop culture (I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
Oh, they're very real:
With greenout: https://goo.gl/maps/ngVXA
https://goo.gl/maps/FqGTP
https://goo.gl/maps/xBfBk
Those are just examples of IDOT installed ones. The municipalities themselves also install signage. It's usually far more substantial.
^^ IDOT is using actual populations now I see, they used to round them off to the nearest 100.
Quote from: english si on July 08, 2015, 02:52:58 AM
Elevation at least doesn't change.
Assuming elevation is based on city average, it actually can. For example, after the 1994 Northridge earthquake, the Santa Susanna Mountains, part of LA, rose up to 15 inches. Minute and unnoticeable, sure, but over a long period of time...
Quote from: bzakharin on July 09, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
I don't recall ever seeing a population sign in real life, only in movies/TV shows, which lead me to believe that it used to be done at some point and just made it into pop culture (I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
Here's one with the word "population" on it. A very exact population also.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblackburnnews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2FGoderich-Population-sign.jpg&hash=6dc474115003238b5e6ad12dd0382d8e7f122209)
Not my pic.
Wisconsin does that too: (not my pic)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3612%2F3772511691_458e9fdd89.jpg&hash=104db3f0e63f061f0de72696a01796cbbaae670c)
Quote from: Brandon on July 09, 2015, 05:00:34 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on July 09, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
I don't recall ever seeing a population sign in real life, only in movies/TV shows, which lead me to believe that it used to be done at some point and just made it into pop culture (I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
Oh, they're very real:
With greenout: https://goo.gl/maps/ngVXA
https://goo.gl/maps/FqGTP
https://goo.gl/maps/xBfBk
Those are just examples of IDOT installed ones. The municipalities themselves also install signage. It's usually far more substantial.
An example of the latter:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariaandtom.com%2Fagent_files%2Fyork13.jpg&hash=99143448b405a201f0d05000e4150a68b9066a4e)
My understanding of the issue is that, in Illinois, these sorts of signs are required to have the population on them. Technically, they are just replacements for the regular green signs. Why that's the requirement, though, I'm not sure.
I could be mistaken though. This sign, for example, is missing the population count:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyherald.com%2Fstoryimage%2FDA%2F20140415%2Fnews%2F140419067%2FAR%2F0%2FAR-140419067.jpg%26amp%3Bupdated%3D201404151151%26amp%3BMaxW%3D800%26amp%3BmaxH%3D800%26amp%3Bupdated%3D201404151151%26amp%3Bnoborder&hash=cdeac0cb0bf1c6371a937dd10a7c8c5679f821e7)
I could have sworn there was a Prestonsburg, KY sign with population on Old US 23/460 (now KY 114) around Archer Park. Seems it was taken down.
Elevation may have some relevance to your vehicle's performance, but if you're at a high enough elevation for that to matter, you should have noticed it already. (I found it very odd in Colorado seeing low-grade gas as 85 octane instead of 87 and premium as 91 instead of 93.)
Elevation could also give you a hint about your chances of running into snow.
Quote from: kkt on July 10, 2015, 12:21:55 AM
Elevation could also give you a hint about your chances of running into snow.
Depends on where on is. Around the Midwest, it's more likely your proximity to the Big Lake and where you are in relation to it (typically southeast of it).
Virginia used to do it on I-95 for both Ashland and Fredericksburg. It was in very tiny fonts under the city names on the green panel guides on the overhead assemblies.
QEW in Ontario uses them approaching a big city with multiple interchanges with a blue sign with the name, its people county, followed by the amount of exits serving it.
Coming from the northeast, where both population and elevation on welcome signs seem to be rare, I've always found them interesting but far from essential. Sometimes you learn just how tiny a town is:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fsigns%2F20050723%2Fkaskaskia-close.jpg&hash=29007bb46fa938d01f4197241c2373c33c2c3b47)
With the '1' and '8' in different sizes, it appears this one was updated at some point. My picture was taken almost 10 years ago (7/23/05), so I wonder if it's still at 18.
I know I have seen a few with single digit populations listed, but I don't seem to have a picture of any. Anyone have a shot of one with a smaller population than 18?
(not mine)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadsideamerica.com%2Fattract%2Fimages%2Fwy%2FWYLOSpop1_kaplan5.jpg&hash=bc3804442c54d8c322930e53d14f9d77b2cca373)
Quote from: roadman65 on July 10, 2015, 10:55:36 AM
QEW in Ontario uses them approaching a big city with multiple interchanges with a blue sign with the name, its people county, followed by the amount of exits serving it.
BC shows the exits, but not population:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1291.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb551%2Fslik_sh00ter%2FEnteringSurrey_zps3okirm0g.jpg&hash=729d52e75afea9c680e97393c430761da7ba673d)
It's also one of the only types of signs left that BC uses FHWA. This one was replaced sometime in 2009 - 2011.
The population of a town may give you a good hint as to the likelihood of finding certain services there.
Yes, neither population nor elevation is generally crucial information. But if you're already putting up signs marking town lines, the marginal cost of a few extra letters and numbers on the sign isn't much. And the information is nice to have, for curiosity if nothing else.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 09, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
I still recall the first episode of "Doug" where the family first moves to Bluffington. There's an electronic population sign that goes up by 4 as the family of 4 enters the city limits)
Ha, yes, it rolls up from 19,997 to 20,001. Doug says "I guess I'm the 1".
It was because of this episode that I had assumed 20,000 people was a typical size for a city (Bluffington has a "downtown" after all). I was surprised to then learn that the city I lived in was home to five times as many people.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 10, 2015, 10:55:36 AM
Virginia used to do it on I-95 for both Ashland and Fredericksburg. It was in very tiny fonts under the city names on the green panel guides on the overhead assemblies.
QEW in Ontario uses them approaching a big city with multiple interchanges with a blue sign with the name, its people county, followed by the amount of exits serving it.
Virginia used to post population figures on BGSs as a routine matter. Somewhere on this forum (I can't be bothered to search right now, typing on my iPad) there's a link to, and there may be photos from, some congressional hearings in the 1960s about highway signs. The congressmen criticized inclusion of population on a BGS intended for directional guidance.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 10, 2015, 09:40:46 PM
Somewhere on this forum (I can't be bothered to search right now, typing on my iPad) there's a link to, and there may be photos from, some congressional hearings in the 1960s about highway signs. The congressmen criticized inclusion of population on a BGS intended for directional guidance.
I think it was your own post: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14817.msg2049288#msg2049288
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 09, 2015, 09:01:32 PMElevation may have some relevance to your vehicle's performance, but if you're at a high enough elevation for that to matter, you should have noticed it already. (I found it very odd in Colorado seeing low-grade gas as 85 octane instead of 87 and premium as 91 instead of 93.)
This issue came up in another forum I frequent and it seems Colorado allows 85-octane gas because ASTM studies done with carburetor-equipped cars in the early 1970's show that it has acceptable antiknock performance at high altitude. Carburetors don't have built-in compensation for thin air, so they run rich (and therefore cool) in the mountains. Cooler intake air at altitude may also play a role in depressing combustion chamber temperatures.
This policy is widely considered out of date since modern cars with electronically controlled fuel injection will run straight stoichiometric mixtures regardless of altitude. New cars are also generally less tolerant of low octane than the first generation with EFI, and some models can even develop cascading knock on 85-octane gas. It is now the norm for owners' manuals to specify 87 everywhere, with no carve-out for 85 at high altitude. Colorado has considered raising the minimum octane requirement to 87, but the sticking point is that 87 (marketed as midgrade in most parts of Colorado) is generally more expensive than in the surrounding states (where it is the lowest available grade).
As an aside, South Dakota allows 85-octane gas in the Black Hills, and its sale and use in the low-elevation eastern part of the state has attracted controversy. Often it is sold fraudulently (85 marketed as 87) because South Dakota does not test octane at point of sale. South Dakota is also at the far end of a rather long supply chain for refined petroleum products, so there have been shortages of 87 that have resulted in 85 being allowed for sale in the eastern part of the state on an emergency basis (this happened in 2006).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lakesnwoods.com%2Fimages%2FTenney89.jpg&hash=92bbe1762c1531c63108cef16b7d81c197b2cd7f)
Quote from: Big John on July 09, 2015, 05:53:54 PM
Wisconsin does that too: (not my pic)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3612%2F3772511691_458e9fdd89.jpg&hash=104db3f0e63f061f0de72696a01796cbbaae670c)
Wisconsin will use the population sign on most roadways up thru major arterials. Once you get to expressways/freeways/Interstates, Wisconsin will usually post a generic "CITY/VILLAGE OF x" sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.043937,-89.356645,3a,37.5y,282.97h,82.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snfLpui2QVo9ulRjMcvYSAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Sometimes it seems very random where they do and do not get posted. For example, coming into Madison from the north on US 151, you will not encounter a population sign nor a "City of" sign. Yet heading north out of Madison you will encounter a City of Sun Prairie sign shortly after the Exit 98B. Some cities also get quite creative in the population signs; this is a Madison example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.09159,-89.488864,3a,15y,159.57h,87.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWmT3-TUJGiAxXSEro4kjPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) that appears to be going the way of the dodo bird, as new ones are a "Madison spec" (more compressed) of the WisDOT layout.
Quote from: briantroutman on July 10, 2015, 09:43:14 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 10, 2015, 09:40:46 PM
Somewhere on this forum (I can't be bothered to search right now, typing on my iPad) there's a link to, and there may be photos from, some congressional hearings in the 1960s about highway signs. The congressmen criticized inclusion of population on a BGS intended for directional guidance.
I think it was your own post: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14817.msg2049288#msg2049288
Heh. That's pretty funny. Thanks for finding it.
Quote from: empirestate on July 08, 2015, 10:53:03 PM
Elevation can also be useful in things like knowing how to calibrate your microwave oven.
Or baking a cake. Because these are things travelers sometimes do.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2015, 01:11:44 PMI know I have seen a few with single digit populations listed, but I don't seem to have a picture of any. Anyone have a shot of one with a smaller population than 18?
(https://www.google.com/maps/@42.763284,-104.924976,3a,15y,301.82h,86.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNU8sOe3sHETx43D44Ohuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Had I not been with the kids, I'd have stopped and taken this picture.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2015, 01:11:44 PMI know I have seen a few with single digit populations listed, but I don't seem to have a picture of any. Anyone have a shot of one with a smaller population than 18?
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.763284,-104.924976,3a,15y,301.82h,86.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNU8sOe3sHETx43D44Ohuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.763284,-104.924976,3a,15y,301.82h,86.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLNU8sOe3sHETx43D44Ohuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Had I not been with the kids, I'd have stopped and taken this picture on Saturday. Definitely the smallest population I recall seeing. 4.
California uses both elevation and population statistics on their city limit signs, found primarily on freeways and state highways and if you go from one municipality to another, each municipality gets its own sign. Heading west on I-210, as you move out of Pasadena and into La Canada Flintridge, say, a sign reading "La Canada Flintridge City Limits" turns up at the municipal boundary. In Arizona, city-limit signs are found primarily in more rural areas; not so many in the Phoenix area. Many times these signs will have the town's elevation and year it was established, no population figure.
When I lived on Kauai, there were no signs at all announcing what town was what. I guess because the locals there already know that info (Kauai's a pretty small island, after all and it's one of the more rural Hawaiian islands) and it would be a simple matter for the tourists to consult their maps, plus, it would be tough to get lost on the roads over there.
Quote from: hm insulators on July 16, 2015, 03:59:15 PM
California uses both elevation and population statistics on their city limit signs, found primarily on freeways and state highways and if you go from one municipality to another, each municipality gets its own sign. Heading west on I-210, as you move out of Pasadena and into La Canada Flintridge, say, a sign reading "La Canada Flintridge City Limits" turns up at the municipal boundary.
Although they are not consistently signed, particularly in cases where a route enters a city more than once. For example, I'm pretty sure the L.A. city limits aren't signed at all on CA-134, even though that route enters the city three separate times.
San Jose city limit signs exist on CA-85 for the ~3/4 mile sliver it passes through between Saratoga and Cupertino, but the 10-mile+ stretch southeast of CA-17 has no sign.
Quote from: hm insulators on July 16, 2015, 03:59:15 PM
When I lived on Kauai, there were no signs at all announcing what town was what. I guess because the locals there already know that info (Kauai's a pretty small island, after all and it's one of the more rural Hawaiian islands) and it would be a simple matter for the tourists to consult their maps, plus, it would be tough to get lost on the roads over there.
Also, Hawaii has no local governments below the county level. It does have defined "urban area", village, etc. boundaries, but with no local governments therein, there's nobody pushing to mark the lines.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2015, 01:11:44 PM
Coming from the northeast, where both population and elevation on welcome signs seem to be rare, I've always found them interesting but far from essential. Sometimes you learn just how tiny a town is:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fsigns%2F20050723%2Fkaskaskia-close.jpg&hash=29007bb46fa938d01f4197241c2373c33c2c3b47)
With the '1' and '8' in different sizes, it appears this one was updated at some point. My picture was taken almost 10 years ago (7/23/05), so I wonder if it's still at 18.
I know I have seen a few with single digit populations listed, but I don't seem to have a picture of any. Anyone have a shot of one with a smaller population than 18?
Connecticut has a ton, even way out in the more rural areas. Here's an example. (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3811256,-73.4249403,3a,75y,191.87h,59.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5lifFxL936CJ0Q6uchh7yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
EDIT: It has the founding date, but nothing else.
Minnesota lists them for incorporated cities/towns and they change them every ten years with the census I believe.
For places that aren't actual units of government, it's just the name, and no population.
Wisconsin lists them, but if a place is unincorporated, "unincorporated" is listed on the sign. Which is a little odd, in that there are unincorporated towns that are actually larger than towns that have populations listed.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 10, 2015, 11:04:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 09, 2015, 09:01:32 PMElevation may have some relevance to your vehicle's performance, but if you're at a high enough elevation for that to matter, you should have noticed it already. (I found it very odd in Colorado seeing low-grade gas as 85 octane instead of 87 and premium as 91 instead of 93.)
This issue came up in another forum I frequent and it seems Colorado allows 85-octane gas because ASTM studies done with carburetor-equipped cars in the early 1970's show that it has acceptable antiknock performance at high altitude. Carburetors don't have built-in compensation for thin air, so they run rich (and therefore cool) in the mountains. Cooler intake air at altitude may also play a role in depressing combustion chamber temperatures.
This policy is widely considered out of date since modern cars with electronically controlled fuel injection will run straight stoichiometric mixtures regardless of altitude. New cars are also generally less tolerant of low octane than the first generation with EFI, and some models can even develop cascading knock on 85-octane gas. It is now the norm for owners' manuals to specify 87 everywhere, with no carve-out for 85 at high altitude. Colorado has considered raising the minimum octane requirement to 87, but the sticking point is that 87 (marketed as midgrade in most parts of Colorado) is generally more expensive than in the surrounding states (where it is the lowest available grade).
As an aside, South Dakota allows 85-octane gas in the Black Hills, and its sale and use in the low-elevation eastern part of the state has attracted controversy. Often it is sold fraudulently (85 marketed as 87) because South Dakota does not test octane at point of sale. South Dakota is also at the far end of a rather long supply chain for refined petroleum products, so there have been shortages of 87 that have resulted in 85 being allowed for sale in the eastern part of the state on an emergency basis (this happened in 2006).
In addition, elevation signs can warn people of the chances of their carbureted car's fuel system getting vapor lock. I haven't heard much about fuel-injected cars getting vapor lock in the mountains, though.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2015, 01:11:44 PM
Coming from the northeast, where both population and elevation on welcome signs seem to be rare, I've always found them interesting but far from essential. Sometimes you learn just how tiny a town is:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fsigns%2F20050723%2Fkaskaskia-close.jpg&hash=29007bb46fa938d01f4197241c2373c33c2c3b47)
With the '1' and '8' in different sizes, it appears this one was updated at some point.
Heck, I've seen a population sign where the last number was stuck over with duct tape when someone had a kid.