When you have a school zone controlled by a couple different types of signage that don't completely agree with each other, which one are you obliged to follow?
Specifically, and this is probably a rather common scenario, say you have an installation on the approach to the school zone saying "Speed Limit 15 When Flashing", along with signage that says "Speed Limit 15 — School Days", perhaps followed by a list of times that the limit is in effect.
Now, supposing the lights are flashing, but it's not a school day. (This probably happens relatively often on weekday holiday observances.) Do you have to obey the limit? And then what if it is a school day, and during one of the listed times, but the lights aren't flashing? Somehow I feel most people would say in this case, yes, you have to follow the limit.
And then, what if the lights aren't flashing, and it's not a school day or one of the listed times, yet there are children everywhere, buses all around, and for whatever reason the school clearly happens to be in session for some purpose or another anyway?
Finally, the reverse of that: what if the lights are flashing, and/or it's a school day, but this particular school is very evidently completely abandoned: closed, perhaps, or just not in session at a time when others in the district are. I mean, there isn't a kid in sight and there are tumbleweeds blowing through the parking lots.
This is something I'm actually encountering daily at the moment, so that's why I'm curious.
this is why I'm glad my county took the school zone speed cameras away
It all comes down to the statutes that are on the books in your state.
Here in NC we have set the standard at "On School Days When Children Are Present". That means that yes, it could be a Tuesday and school can be in session but if all the kids are tucked away in the school building and not lining the sidewalks and crosswalks near the school then the lower limit is not in effect.
It also means that if it happens to be one of those Saturdays in the spring after a really bad snow or hurricane season where all the regular make up days have been used up and the kids must go to school on Saturday to meet the statutory requirement of 181 school days for the year-if that happens and there are kids visible in the area then the lower limit does apply. For the record I can only recall 2 Saturday school days in the last 15 years here in Craven County-one in 2000 after a really bad 1999 hurricane season (anyone remember Hurricane Floyd?), and the other a few years ago after a couple of tropical storms in the fall followed by a bunch of snow days in the winter caused a Saturday school day-they are very rare.
If it's not a school day but there are children everywhere the lower limit is not in effect however it would be prudent to drive carefully through the area anyway.
But, I'm not sure what I have said is really helpful because it only applies to my area, your laws only may differ.
I have a slightly different questions...
What is the logic in a school zone, when no one can or does walk to school? Our Elementary and High School are out side of the city, there are no homes nearby, there are no sidewalks, so everyone must take a school bus, transit bus, drive, or be driven to get to school, and yet, there is a 20 MPH speed limit in front of the school. The stupider thing is that in front of the HS, it is enforced from 7am-4pm (school is from 7:30-2:30), but at the ES, it is from 8:30-9:30 and 3-4 (school is from 9-3:30). They also have flashing lights, which used to control the whole thing, but the "When Flashing" was covered over with stupid Arial, non-reflective, signs. Oh, and the kicker, is that even when the zone is not in force, that segment of an otherwise 50 MPH road, is set to 35 MPH, year-around. It drives me up the wall.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 08, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
I have a slightly different questions...
What is the logic in a school zone, when no one can or does walk to school? Our Elementary and High School are out side of the city, there are no homes nearby, there are no sidewalks, so everyone must take a school bus, transit bus, drive, or be driven to get to school, and yet, there is a 20 MPH speed limit in front of the school. The stupider thing is that in front of the HS, it is enforced from 7am-4pm (school is from 7:30-2:30), but at the ES, it is from 8:30-9:30 and 3-4 (school is from 9-3:30). They also have flashing lights, which used to control the whole thing, but the "When Flashing" was covered over with stupid Arial, non-reflective, signs. Oh, and the kicker, is that even when the zone is not in force, that segment of an otherwise 50 MPH road, is set to 35 MPH, year-around. It drives me up the wall.
Well, the HS has students who will leave/arrive all throughout the day (think college-in-HS students and late start/early release), so having it enforced all day is reasonable.
As for the school zones themselves...even if one student walks, they need the zone. There's no real harm in slowing down drivers for a minute or two when it could save a life.
Kids as a whole have a higher propensity inherently toward rash and unpredictable behavior, and the great majority have no sense of how traffic really works (let's face it–even the ones with driver's licenses). It just takes the potential for one kid stupidly running into traffic without thinking to make it worth slowing down.
As long as they're out and around, it's a good idea to be a little extra careful. There are a lot of rules I grumble about, but a safety buffer where kids are is not one of them.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 08, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
I have a slightly different questions...
What is the logic in a school zone, when no one can or does walk to school? Our Elementary and High School are out side of the city, there are no homes nearby, there are no sidewalks, so everyone must take a school bus, transit bus, drive, or be driven to get to school, and yet, there is a 20 MPH speed limit in front of the school. The stupider thing is that in front of the HS, it is enforced from 7am-4pm (school is from 7:30-2:30), but at the ES, it is from 8:30-9:30 and 3-4 (school is from 9-3:30). They also have flashing lights, which used to control the whole thing, but the "When Flashing" was covered over with stupid Arial, non-reflective, signs. Oh, and the kicker, is that even when the zone is not in force, that segment of an otherwise 50 MPH road, is set to 35 MPH, year-around. It drives me up the wall.
Are there any athletic fields, playgrounds, or other facilities that might lead to a student being near the road? For example, if they were playing kickball during gym class and a ball rolled into the road?
Planners in many American towns:
"Hey, where should we locate our elementary school? Keeping in mind the safety of our children and all that."
- "How about right on the main highway?"
"Great idea!"
Quote from: kurumi on August 08, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
"Hey, where should we locate our elementary school?..."How about right on the main highway?"
"Great idea!"
To be fair, sometimes the main highway may have been the only road in town at the time, so there was little choice. But nonetheless I agree, and new schools continue to be built on main arterial roadways for no apparent reason, though mainly in America (even Canada is better about this: https://goo.gl/I5C51Y).
Part of the deal is that the school needs to be on a big enough street to get the traffic to it, especially if they use buses.
Also as towns grow and new schools are needed, they may need to be built in outlying areas, because that's the only land left or the only land that can be assembled at a reasonable cost. There aren't any smaller roads in the new areas, so as the area around the new school gets settled, the street the school is on becomes a main road.
Back to the main thread topic, there was an intersection near our house that was marked No Turn On Red for certain hours (morning and afternoon), "School Days Only". When the school a block away was closed due to declining enrollment, the signs remained for a while. Since there was no longer a school there, was it a school day?
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 08, 2015, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 08, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
I have a slightly different questions...
What is the logic in a school zone, when no one can or does walk to school? Our Elementary and High School are out side of the city, there are no homes nearby, there are no sidewalks, so everyone must take a school bus, transit bus, drive, or be driven to get to school, and yet, there is a 20 MPH speed limit in front of the school. The stupider thing is that in front of the HS, it is enforced from 7am-4pm (school is from 7:30-2:30), but at the ES, it is from 8:30-9:30 and 3-4 (school is from 9-3:30). They also have flashing lights, which used to control the whole thing, but the "When Flashing" was covered over with stupid Arial, non-reflective, signs. Oh, and the kicker, is that even when the zone is not in force, that segment of an otherwise 50 MPH road, is set to 35 MPH, year-around. It drives me up the wall.
Are there any athletic fields, playgrounds, or other facilities that might lead to a student being near the road? For example, if they were playing kickball during gym class and a ball rolled into the road?
In this case, the schools are both several hundred feet from the roadway, and have 12' high fencing around the fields. The only exception of tennis, which is only played about 3 weeks a year for gym.
Additionally, the High School has been a closed campus for at least 10 years, with giant gates that close during school hours, and can only be opened by a few staff members, so the argument about coming and going isn't valid. Not to mention, the shoulders on the road are large enough to have two more travel lanes, so anyone walking would be quite safe, which of course no one does, because they are all 2-3 miles from the nearest home.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 08, 2015, 11:49:23 AM
I have a slightly different questions...
What is the logic in a school zone, when no one can or does walk to school?
Interesting. Down here in Puyallup, where plenty of students walk to school, only elementary schools have school zones, and even then, the restrictions are either "when flashing" or "when children are present". There are no "between 7 AM and 3 PM" signs to speak of.
Here are some examples:
Outside of Kalles Junior High: https://goo.gl/XqWsS6
Just south of Ferruci Junior High: https://goo.gl/PnOKb6
Near Rogers High School (notice the fields in the background): https://goo.gl/Nevxnt
Next to Puyallup High School: https://goo.gl/TWXTjH
North of Shaw Road
ELEMENTARY school (apparently not all primary schools have zones): https://goo.gl/3Zp20s
Quote from: Bruce on August 08, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Well, the HS has students who will leave/arrive all throughout the day (think college-in-HS students and late start/early release), so having it enforced all day is reasonable.
Yes. High school students that have the ability to drive a car, work in stores and businesses, lifeguard at pools, volunteer at fire departments, babysit, mentor other young students, and perform numerous other adult task, need drivers to drive 20 mph by a school so that they are not harmed doing whatnow? :hmmm:
Quote
As for the school zones themselves...even if one student walks, they need the zone. There's no real harm in slowing down drivers for a minute or two when it could save a life.
Will someone please think of the
adults children???
Quote from: empirestate on August 07, 2015, 11:07:31 PM
When you have a school zone controlled by a couple different types of signage that don't completely agree with each other, which one are you obliged to follow?
Specifically, and this is probably a rather common scenario, say you have an installation on the approach to the school zone saying "Speed Limit 15 When Flashing", along with signage that says "Speed Limit 15 — School Days", perhaps followed by a list of times that the limit is in effect.
I would feel obliged to follow whichever control was more restrictive. For example, if the flasher is on but it's outside the times listed on the other sign, I'd slow down anyway.
If this is something that you're experiencing on a regular basis, it's probably worth mentioning to the local public works department or DOT.
In Nevada, they've done their best to do away with conflicting controls, at least on the same street.
A school zone on a major street or collector road is almost always controlled by a "when flashing" sign (typically overhead), and only flashes during times students can be expected to be walking to/from school unless directly adjacent to school property. For side streets that intersect between the flashers, a "when flashing" sign can be used on the approach to the main street–most newer school zone flashers now have a single beacon on the back so you can see the flashing if turning in from a side street that intersects the school zone.
Sometimes you may have a school adjacent to a major street and a side street. In such cases, the main street may have a "when flashing" beacon while the side street lists times. In such cases, the side street may have additional signs coming off the main street that indicate the times, so that you can be under the flashing control on the main street but then come under a different school zone restriction upon turning.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 08, 2015, 04:49:11 PM
Quote from: Bruce on August 08, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Well, the HS has students who will leave/arrive all throughout the day (think college-in-HS students and late start/early release), so having it enforced all day is reasonable.
Yes. High school students that have the ability to drive a car, work in stores and businesses, lifeguard at pools, volunteer at fire departments, babysit, mentor other young students, and perform numerous other adult task, need drivers to drive 20 mph by a school so that they are not harmed doing whatnow? :hmmm:
I dunno. More kids got hurt in front of my high school than my elementary school 1/4 mile down the same street. It's no secret that teenagers can excel at stupidity at a rate surpassing that of the general populace.
Plus, for whatever it's worth, there is a world of difference in cognitive development between a young freshman and a senior, and some consolidated high schools now include 12-year-olds.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 08, 2015, 05:08:01 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 08, 2015, 04:49:11 PM
Quote from: Bruce on August 08, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Well, the HS has students who will leave/arrive all throughout the day (think college-in-HS students and late start/early release), so having it enforced all day is reasonable.
Yes. High school students that have the ability to drive a car, work in stores and businesses, lifeguard at pools, volunteer at fire departments, babysit, mentor other young students, and perform numerous other adult task, need drivers to drive 20 mph by a school so that they are not harmed doing whatnow? :hmmm:
I dunno. More kids got hurt in front of my high school than my elementary school 1/4 mile down the same street. It's no secret that teenagers can excel at stupidity at a rate surpassing that of the general populace.
Plus, for whatever it's worth, there is a world of difference in cognitive development between a young freshman and a senior, and some consolidated high schools now include 12-year-olds.
My HS was actually two schools on the campus, oddly split up 7-8-9 and 10-11-12 (building expansion now allows it to be 7-8 & 9-10-11-12.
But remember, I was responding to a post regarding college/HS and students with early/late start release, which historically aren't walkers, and historically arrive & leave are outside the restricted school zone times.
As for controlling statutes, the example I'm thinking of is in Florida, so I don't know what the underlying law would be. But for the purposes of my question, let's just assume that the statutes don't add any information beyond what's on the signs. (That could add a third layer of complexity that is a bit too much for my mind right now!)
iPhone
I have seen flashers operate in school zones where football or baseball games were taking place after school hours due to vehicular & pedestrian traffic.
Quote from: cjk374 on August 08, 2015, 08:10:04 PM
I have seen flashers operate in school zones where football or baseball games were taking place after school hours due to vehicular & pedestrian traffic.
Yes. Or the school play, or curriculum night, or any number of other events.
What if the sign says "Speed Limit 20 when children are present"? Does that mean when they are out by the road or when school is in session. I just think it's a little ridiculous to make people drive 15 or 20 mph on a road that normally has a speed limit of 30 or 40, especially when everyone is in the building. I find school speed limits to be a big speed trap. I wouldn't mind school speed limits so much if they were set 5 or maybe 10 mph below the normal speed, but 15 or lower is just plain ridiculous and stupid IMO.
Quote from: US 41 on August 10, 2015, 09:31:59 AM
What if the sign says "Speed Limit 20 when children are present"? Does that mean when they are out by the road or when school is in session. I just think it's a little ridiculous to make people drive 15 or 20 mph on a road that normally has a speed limit of 30 or 40, especially when everyone is in the building. I find school speed limits to be a big speed trap. I wouldn't mind school speed limits so much if they were set 5 or maybe 10 mph below the normal speed, but 15 or lower is just plain ridiculous and stupid IMO.
Keep in mind, too, that this is in Florida where everything seems to be a four-lane divided highway, yet the school is essentially the only facility located along this road. It seems odd that they would build a facility of such description that it warrants a 15mph speed limit, but build it along what is essentially and expressway. (Also odd is that the limit outside of the school zone is 30mph.)
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on August 10, 2015, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: US 41 on August 10, 2015, 09:31:59 AM
What if the sign says "Speed Limit 20 when children are present"? Does that mean when they are out by the road or when school is in session. I just think it's a little ridiculous to make people drive 15 or 20 mph on a road that normally has a speed limit of 30 or 40, especially when everyone is in the building. I find school speed limits to be a big speed trap. I wouldn't mind school speed limits so much if they were set 5 or maybe 10 mph below the normal speed, but 15 or lower is just plain ridiculous and stupid IMO.
Keep in mind, too, that this is in Florida where everything seems to be a four-lane divided highway, yet the school is essentially the only facility located along this road. It seems odd that they would build a facility of such description that it warrants a 15mph speed limit, but build it along what is essentially and expressway. (Also odd is that the limit outside of the school zone is 30mph.)
iPhone
This one takes the cake.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@27.3376046,-82.4849159,3a,19.9y,298.1h,117.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spojehnOOQ3MVFN1StYfvEQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
15 mph on a 45 mph divided 6 lane roadway.
"When Children Are Present" seems about as vague as Montana's "Reasonable and Prudent", yet the latter got thrown out for being difficult to enforce. While I assume "When Children Are Present" is comparatively easy to enforce, it's no less vague to the traveling motorist.
Frankly, school speed limits should be either a time frame or "when flashing".
In NJ, 'When Children Are Present' is defined as 30 minutes before and after school and during recess. Granted, that doesn't help when someone doesn't know what time school begins or ends, or when recess is. As in other states, it would take someone going to court...and continuing the fight thru the State supreme court...to have it ruled as vague. In most cases, people are just going to pay the ticket, or get it reduced in a plea bargain if they take it to court.
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on August 10, 2015, 12:20:57 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 10, 2015, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: US 41 on August 10, 2015, 09:31:59 AM
What if the sign says "Speed Limit 20 when children are present"? Does that mean when they are out by the road or when school is in session. I just think it's a little ridiculous to make people drive 15 or 20 mph on a road that normally has a speed limit of 30 or 40, especially when everyone is in the building. I find school speed limits to be a big speed trap. I wouldn't mind school speed limits so much if they were set 5 or maybe 10 mph below the normal speed, but 15 or lower is just plain ridiculous and stupid IMO.
Keep in mind, too, that this is in Florida where everything seems to be a four-lane divided highway, yet the school is essentially the only facility located along this road. It seems odd that they would build a facility of such description that it warrants a 15mph speed limit, but build it along what is essentially and expressway. (Also odd is that the limit outside of the school zone is 30mph.)
iPhone
This one takes the cake.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@27.3376046,-82.4849159,3a,19.9y,298.1h,117.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spojehnOOQ3MVFN1StYfvEQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
15 mph on a 45 mph divided 6 lane roadway.
in this example, the school zone appears to extend the distance of the school campus. Except for the one street across from the school, which is a No Outlet street, anyone walking to and from the school would be leaving the reduced speed zone. So what make it necessary to reduce the speed limit for a few hundred feet of roadway, when anyone walking would be walking by traffic going the normal speed?
(Note: Most 'School Zones' are like this)
Also, given the risk of getting lost in the ambiguity of school zone speed limits as a general principle, my question is really as much about conflicting messages in regulatory signage, and how to decide which of two (or more) instructions is to be taken as controlling.
We could certainly imagine instances where there are conflicting messages about something completely unrelated to school zones.
iPhone
Washington Administrative Code defines "when children are present" for Washington school zones:
QuoteWAC 468-95-335
When children are present.
Amend MUTCD Section 7B.15 by adding the following to paragraph 07:
The supplemental or lower panel of a School Speed Limit 20 sign which reads When Children are Present shall indicate to the motorist that the 20 mile per hour school speed limit is in force under any of the following conditions:
(1) School children are occupying or walking within the marked crosswalk.
(2) School children are waiting at the curb or on the shoulder of the roadway and are about to cross the roadway by way of the marked crosswalk.
(3) School children are present or walking along the roadway, either on the adjacent sidewalk or, in the absence of sidewalks, on the shoulder within the posted school speed limit zone extending 300 feet, or other distance established by regulation, in either direction from the marked crosswalk.
Sounds pretty reasonable, so you don't have to slow down because the kids are all in their classrooms.
Quote from: kkt on August 10, 2015, 03:26:13 PM
Washington Administrative Code defines "when children are present" for Washington school zones:
...
Sounds pretty reasonable, so you don't have to slow down because the kids are all in their classrooms.
That is actually very reasonable. I had no idea the law was that precise. Nice to have some clarification there. I would have spent hours rummaging through the RCW; never thought of the WAC.
Reviving a thread here, but I can say this is a good example of conflicting signage.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5729/20814363702_b499550029_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/xHi4aG) (https://flic.kr/p/xHi4aG) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/133197723@N05/)
Not only conflicting control messages, but also conflicting speeds.
If there is a beacon and "when flashing" message, then that is the least ambiguous control that I would follow–the "when children are present" control should be removed. However, depending on the situation, I would keep the slower school speed.
How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?
In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.
I'm surprised Jeremy Moses hasn't reported that to the district office in northern Kentucky.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:06:04 PM
How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?
With their eyes. Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder. If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on). That's in Washington, your state law may vary.
Quote
In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.
And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:06:04 PM
How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?
With their eyes. Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder. If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on). That's in Washington, your state law may vary.
Quote
In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.
And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.
In New Jersey, "When Children Are Present" is defined as 1/2 hour before school, during recess, and 1/2 hour after school. So the definitions can vary.
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:06:04 PM
How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?
With their eyes. Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder. If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on). That's in Washington, your state law may vary.
Quote
In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.
And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.
Sorry, but I interpret "when children are present" to mean "during school hours when classes are in session," not "if you can see them." And I think my interpretation is a reasonable one.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2015, 12:10:20 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 03, 2015, 03:06:04 PM
How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?
With their eyes. Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder. If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on). That's in Washington, your state law may vary.
Quote
In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.
And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.
Sorry, but I interpret "when children are present" to mean "during school hours when classes are in session," not "if you can see them." And I think my interpretation is a reasonable one.
I'm with Kkt, here. I think it's pretty clear that by "present" that they mean that there are children visible in the vicinity. Doesn't make sense for someone to assume that there are children hidden in the school somewhere, especially when non-parents don't keep track of curriculum days and other special days off. :D