Hello I am new here but would like to ask a question. I was traveling from Arizona to my grandmothers new home in Chula Vista, Calif. I was using my GPS and most GPS's take you the shortest route. Well I was on the I-805 it then took me on the, I believe it is called the 54 (some one here might know) well I did not realize I was on a toll road until I was already on it. I could not turn around. I took it until the GPS told me to get off at H street. Well I received a ticket in the mail. I really don't think I deserve it. I am from out of state this is the first time I have been to my grandmothers new home in Chula Vista California. I had no idea I was going on a toll road. I was only following my GPS, if I knew it was a toll road I would have not taken that route. Is there anything I can do. I would appreciate the help. The ticket is only $53.00 I could pay it and chaulk it up to a lesson learned. In my opinion I think the GPS company should pay for the ticket. Is this fair!!! Why would the GPS not tell me it was a toll road? Being out of state I had no idea where I was going? We don't have toll roads in Arizona.
Thanks!
Ginger
Well first of all, what did you do to get a $53 dollar ticket? Go through the EZ-Pass lanes without a transponder?
And second of all, I'm not sure about California, but every state I've been posts big yellow signs that say "TOLL ROAD" BEFORE the exit. In fact Virginia posts a white "TOLL" everywhere you see any mention of the exit. So I find it hard to believe that you didn't know it was a toll road before you were already on it.
And this is just another classic case of why you shouldn't use a GPS unit, much less rely entirely on it.
You must have ended up on the South Bay Expressway (California 125 south) from California 54 (South Bay Freeway) west. Map: http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=32.669726~-116.985168&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1 (http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=32.669726~-116.985168&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)
Unfortunately, the route is a pricey toll road and you likely drove through the Fastrak transponder lanes without even knowing it. I cannot tell you how successful you will be with disputing it...
Quote from: ginger463 on September 14, 2009, 11:25:36 PM
Hello I am new here but would like to ask a question. I was traveling from Arizona to my grandmothers new home in Chula Vista, Calif. I was using my GPS and most GPS's take you the shortest route. Well I was on the I-805 it then took me on the, I believe it is called the 54 (some one here might know) well I did not realize I was on a toll road until I was already on it. I could not turn around. I took it until the GPS told me to get off at H street. Well I received a ticket in the mail. I really don't think I deserve it. I am from out of state this is the first time I have been to my grandmothers new home in Chula Vista California. I had no idea I was going on a toll road. I was only following my GPS, if I knew it was a toll road I would have not taken that route. Is there anything I can do. I would appreciate the help. The ticket is only $53.00 I could pay it and chaulk it up to a lesson learned. In my opinion I think the GPS company should pay for the ticket. Is this fair!!! Why would the GPS not tell me it was a toll road? Being out of state I had no idea where I was going? We don't have toll roads in Arizona.
Thanks!
Ginger
[EDIT: Dude, calm the fuck down.] and don't think a GPS is king shit... use your brains before using a computer. some roads are toll roads, and are signed quite well as such. If you run through their gates without paying the toll, do not blame your GPS module for your own stupidity.
oh, and you have plenty of toll roads in Arizona. Try doing 75 in a signed 65mph zone on Loop 101 around Phoenix. Instant toll for you!
GPS's are always doing lunatic things like this. Before going on a long trip, you need to compose a route yourself. Grab some maps and come up with one that makes sense, then sanity check it with Google Maps (which does mention toll roads and has a decent–though not perfect–routing algorithm). If you're not sure about a routing, come here and post in one of the regional boards and someone who knows the area will help you. Only after you have a course laid out should you use your GPS to help you stay on the route.
The only GPS I have ever taken along with me was my dad's Magellan aviation GPS. It did all I wanted; showed my speed, showed a map (although we were depicted as a small airplane on the map, but what do you expect). I doubt I should ever need to use the wayfinding functions on a GPS, simply because I can do a better route myself with less hassle.
D.O.T. maps are frequently the best. (They built the roads, they should know the most about them!) Caltrans doesn't publish a free map, but most other states do and hand them out at state lines. (Missouri will even give you maps for other states–I got Illinois and Wisconsin maps from them!) If you want one earlier, you can visit the D.O.T. websites and put in a request for a map and it will arrive usually within a couple weeks. (Unless you're asking Alaska DOT&PF, which I requested a map from a year ago and still haven't received!)
I agree with the above. It is amazing to me the number of people who mindlessly follow GPS in the face of signage.
If you had paid attention to the signage, you would not have gotten on a toll road you did not want to, and, more importantly, you would not have passed through a transponder lane without a transponder.
Use GPS, if at all, as an in town supplement to signage and a good map. It is worthless for inter-city travel.
Check the legal documentation that came with the GPS device, make sure you didn't waive any rights to recompense based on negligence on the part of the device. Get in contact with the company's legal department; they'll likely just cut you the check to maintain goodwill, as long as you agree to not tell anyone about it.
GPS is nothing more than a supplemental, it's not meant to entirely taking over the navigation. I know people who follow their GPS everyday, but can't tell which freeway they're on or where the are. If the GPS says a toll free route, and the signs says it's a toll road, do you really believe the signs are wrong and your GPS is right?
I'd advise selling the GPS to pay for the ticket. Then get a map. [EDIT: Additional sarcasm not really necessary.]
Might I also suggest FasTrack - it might reduce your toll in the long run - only for running the booth, not for speeding.
NOTE: This only works in California.
https://www.thetollroads.com/home/index.htm (https://www.thetollroads.com/home/index.htm)
It is worth bearing in mind that the GPS device has no idea where it's going either. It's a computer. It can't think, and its directions are not going to be flawless.
For this reason, you really need to pay attention to the signs. The GPS routing you onto a toll road isn't a mistake per se, you just need to pay the toll, and the lanes where you can do that with cash should be clearly marked.
I'm doubtful that you have any case here either in court or with the GPS manufacturer. Neither can be faulted, the ticket's legit.
Moral of the story? Situational awareness.
Fortunately for you, all you ended up with was a ticket. Plenty of people have wrecked their cars blindly following their GPS.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westcoastroads.com%2Fcalifornia%2Fimages125%2Fca-125_nb_exit_001_07.jpg&hash=a82638f0ba7976d0b4ae777259944ca0a4e5dd9a)
fixed - ms
^
|--- :O
That's not fair though- I'm sure her GPS didn't tell her to stop
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.tinypic.com%2F2gv4vuu.jpg&hash=ce937de598f0666e85c1da15c3b329a00928060e)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi26.tinypic.com%2F149qxk.jpg&hash=2dec7c9369ed1b57a42f1243497608a716e1e0d8)
I agree with most of what's been said so far. Don't blame the GPS for routing you onto a toll road when most tolls roads are clearly signed as "TOLL ROAD" in all capital letters usually on a bright yellow background.
If you still insist on using your GPS, pay for a map update and make sure you turn on the option to advise you if the GPS's routing takes you on a toll road. My TomTom always alerts me if a planned route takes me onto a toll facility like a toll road or toll bridge. I then have the option of telling my GPS to avoid toll roads in planning my route.
In your case, I would just pay the $53 ticket and be done with it.
I'd actually argue that anyone who missed those very clear signs should not only be stuck with the ticket but immediately be cited for inattentive driving
Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 15, 2009, 07:47:09 AM
Check the legal documentation that came with the GPS device, make sure you didn't waive any rights to recompense based on negligence on the part of the device. Get in contact with the company's legal department; they'll likely just cut you the check to maintain goodwill, as long as you agree to not tell anyone about it.
or alternately take some personal responsibility, admit you didn't read the highway signage correctly, and pay the fine.
Wow I am taken back by the rudeness here. I do not think the GPS is the Shits it was the first time I used it. Agent steel don't speed in my state and you won't get tickets. And I still don't think I deserved it, but I am paying it, believe me the $53.00 is nothing to me if I can drive a Bently GT and wear Dior. :-P
See ya!
Quote from: ginger463 on September 16, 2009, 01:19:13 AM
Wow I am taken back by the rudeness here. I do not think the GPS is the Shits it was the first time I used it. Agent steel don't speed in my state and you won't get tickets. And I still don't think I deserved it, but I am paying it, believe me the $53.00 is nothing to me if I can drive a Bently GT and wear Dior. :-P
See ya!
You chose to come here to post your question. True, there's a lot of cynical responses, but that's just how some of us roll. Most of the advice given in this thread is practical. If you aren't willing to plan ahead and know which roads are toll roads before you use them, then you deserve any toll violations you incur. It has always been up to the
user to ascertain local road conditions–GPS companies or other mapping services will never be held liable for that.
Quote from: ginger463 on September 16, 2009, 01:19:13 AM
Wow I am taken back by the rudeness here. I know you all could give a rats ass if I ever come back, which I won't. I have better things to do then hang out on a highway forum, the rest of you need to get a life, how pitiful you all are to even be here. I do not think the GPS is the Shits it was the first time I used it. Agent steel don't speed in my state and you won't get tickets. And I still don't think I deserved it, but I am paying it, believe me the $53.00 is nothing to me if I can drive a Bently GT and wear Dior. :-P
See ya!
have fun wasting your money on Bentleys, Dior, and illiteracy.
also: "the shit", not "the shits". Note that they mean very, very different things.
[Mod note: you know what, I'm leaving this one. it's rude, but it's sadly too true. also note unedited original post]
lol, that guy drives a Bentley and worries about a $ 53 ticket? :-D
Wow. While agree that you shouldn't depend on a GPS and that it is common sense to read the sign, the comments were harsh as hell. The average non road geek couldn't tell you the difference from one road to the next and most people barely pay attention to the signs.
At the end of the day it's her fault, but damn.
This is beyond not reading signs though- if you really can't see a sign that says "ALL OTHER TRAFFIC EXIT HERE TO PAY TOLL" in very clear letters, posted multiple times before the tollbooth, you just aren't paying attention. If you're really THAT bad at reading signs, you probably shouldn't be driving. This isn't noticing whether a shield was neutered or not- or even recognizing a control city, this is very clear, concise, specific signage that is visibly posted on giant gantries.
Anyone who can't do that and then whines deserves to be berated mercilessly.
I think the bit about driving a Bentley and wearing Dior was meant as chastisement of us anyway, rather than literal truth.
My personal view is that she made a mistake and should pay for it because she had been given every reasonable opportunity to avoid it, but it does none of us any good to rub the salt in the wound.
As a country we are also tentatively scheduled to go to ETC-only toll roads at some point (2014?), so I am rather concerned about the divergence toll road agencies are likely to retain in their policies in dealing with drivers who enter their systems without the correct transponders. I don't have a transponder with any toll road agencies, but AIUI, with some agencies passing under a toll gantry without the appropriate transponder results in billing at an enhanced per-mile rate rather than a fine. Drivers need to know not just that they are entering a toll road, but also costs, payment options, and the consequences of not having a transponder, in good time to exit and choose an alternative route. Are there signs indicating that there is an actual fine (not just higher billing without the option to pay cash at a booth) for having no Fastrak?
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
I think the bit about driving a Bentley and wearing Dior was meant as chastisement of us anyway, rather than literal truth.
My personal view is that she made a mistake and should pay for it because she had been given every reasonable opportunity to avoid it, but it does none of us any good to rub the salt in the wound.
As a country we are also tentatively scheduled to go to ETC-only toll roads at some point (2014?), so I am rather concerned about the divergence toll road agencies are likely to retain in their policies in dealing with drivers who enter their systems without the correct transponders. I don't have a transponder with any toll road agencies, but AIUI, with some agencies passing under a toll gantry without the appropriate transponder results in billing at an enhanced per-mile rate rather than a fine. Drivers need to know not just that they are entering a toll road, but also costs, payment options, and the consequences of not having a transponder, in good time to exit and choose an alternative route. Are there signs indicating that there is an actual fine (not just higher billing without the option to pay cash at a booth) for having no Fastrak?
Agreed, J N.
Unfortunately, we're going to see much more of this as we move toward ETC-only toll roads. If the road "ginger463" had been an old-school (cash only) toll road, she at least would have known when the toll booth came up and she HAD to stop. From the pictures I've seen on this site, an ETC-only toll road is not that much different a driving experience than a "free" highway.
I'm not making excuses, just stating the likely consequence that inattentive and/or clueless people will get themselves into and less honest people will claim "they didn't know" to try and get out of paying.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
As a country we are also tentatively scheduled to go to ETC-only toll roads at some point (2014?), so I am rather concerned about the divergence toll road agencies are likely to retain in their policies in dealing with drivers who enter their systems without the correct transponders. I don't have a transponder with any toll road agencies, but AIUI, with some agencies passing under a toll gantry without the appropriate transponder results in billing at an enhanced per-mile rate rather than a fine. Drivers need to know not just that they are entering a toll road, but also costs, payment options, and the consequences of not having a transponder, in good time to exit and choose an alternative route. Are there signs indicating that there is an actual fine (not just higher billing without the option to pay cash at a booth) for having no Fastrak?
Not sure about the rest of the country but in California, there is a state law requiring that all toll facilities (S.F. Bay Area bridges, Golden Gate Bridge, express lanes on CA-91 and I-15, and CA-73, 133, 241, 261 and 125 toll roads) must use the same ETC system which has been named "FasTrak". AFAIK, only the Golden Gate bridge offers a discount of $1 to FasTrak users and the CA-91 and I-15 Express Lanes are ETC only, no cash.
And yes, if you have a FasTrak transponder it's valid on all toll facilities regardless of which agency you signed up with but fees and minimum usage do vary from tolling agency to tolling agency. For example, I have my account with the Bay Area Toll Authority (northern California) and I pay no monthly maintenance fees, there is no minimum usage requirement and the first two transponders are free. If your account is with the South Bay Expressway (CA-125 in San Diego), they have a $7.00 monthly fee but tolls paid on the South Bay Expressway are used to offset the monthly fee.
Some of these responses were way beyond rude. Way to make a newby feel welcome. You can make a point or disagree with someone w/o berating the person, insulting the person and/or displaying a holier than thou attitude.
Well you should be able to anyway. I'm beginning to think a few of you aren't capable of engaging in public discourse w/o berating or talking down to others. Does it make you feel good to call others stupid, hurt their feelings and just plain be mean to people? I don't get it.
Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2009, 11:25:28 AM
lol, that guy drives a Bentley and worries about a $ 53 ticket? :-D
I'm pretty sure Ginger isn't a guys name. Does beating up a lady make you feel good?
Quote from: corco on September 16, 2009, 01:41:39 PM
This is beyond not reading signs though- if you really can't see a sign that says "ALL OTHER TRAFFIC EXIT HERE TO PAY TOLL" in very clear letters, posted multiple times before the tollbooth, you just aren't paying attention. If you're really THAT bad at reading signs, you probably shouldn't be driving. This isn't noticing whether a shield was neutered or not- or even recognizing a control city, this is very clear, concise, specific signage that is visibly posted on giant gantries.
Anyone who can't do that and then whines deserves to be berated mercilessly.
First of all, nobody who comes here simply seeking information deserves to be berated. Secondly, you don't know all the facts. Are you telling me you've never missed an exit before? I'm sure we've all done that, and it's the same thing. We all make mistakes. She may have been passing a truck and couldn't see the sign. It may have been at night and the sign may be poorly lit. It may have been foggy. Who knows? The problem is when this type of mistake is made there's no way to correct it. You can't very well go back and pay the toll.
A few years ago I was on the Tri-State Tollway heading to Midway Airport. I hadn't been on it in years and was looking for the baskets to throw money into. I never saw one, but it did appear to me that I had several lanes mostly to myself and when I looked to my right it looked like there were vehicles in another set of lanes that were stopping to pay toll, and it didn't look like they were exiting. It was at night. Did I miss a sign or did they remove tolls from that part of the Tollway? When I exited there were also no tolls.
On my return trip (also at night) I looked diligently for Toll signs. Never saw one. Never stopped at a Toll Booth and never got a ticket. Maybe I just got lucky but to this day I'm not sure if I illegally used the wrong lanes or not.
That's why there are generally several signs indicating a toll, such as the ones Chris posted above that are posted.
She didn't come looking to be berated, but she did come looking for us to say "rah rah rah you're right the GPS company is totally at fault." People looking to blame small pieces of equipment for mistakes THEY made deserve beration.
As for the Tri-State, you can avoid paying tolls on it if you avoid the tollbooths which are at fixed intervals along the tollway. Had you encountered a tollbooth, you would have seen giant signs that said I-Pass Lanes Here / Cash Lanes Here posted about 5 times between 2 miles out from the booth and the tollbooth, and if you were paying any attention you wouldn't have missed them, regardless of weather conditions. I'm guessing you simply never drove by a tollbooth, which is very possible, and therefore never had to pay a toll or any sign indicating it. If you were going from the Stevenson to the East-West, you wouldn't have seen a tollbooth on the Tri-State, for example.
Oklahoma's toll roads are set up similarly to that shown in the signs posted here. PikePass traffic goes straight through, cash traffic uses auxiliary lanes. They are well-signed. i didn't have any trouble during my recent visit to Oklahoma, even at the one toll road (Bailey Spur???) that does it the opposite as described previously (cash customers go straight, PikePass uses the auxiliary lanes).
This is the first I've heard about doing away with cash toll roads on a national basis. Mr. Winkler, got a cite for that?
Yeah, I'm wondering about that too. If it's true, then I'm VERY glad I live in the northeast.
Quote from: corco on September 16, 2009, 06:57:13 PM
That's why there are generally several signs indicating a toll, such as the ones Chris posted above that are posted.
She didn't come looking to be berated, but she did come looking for us to say "rah rah rah you're right the GPS company is totally at fault." People looking to blame small pieces of equipment for mistakes THEY made deserve beration.
No, she had a couple of legitimate questions and perhaps some misconceptions about GPS devices. She asked politely and was treated very rudely! Instead of berating her you could have just educated her, but no, you (and others) had to make her feel like dirt! There is absolutely no call for that, ever. Such behavior is totally inexcusable. Even if she was knowingly in the wrong and was intentionally trying to blame a device for her mistake (and I don't think that's the case) 2 wrongs don't make a right. The behavior displayed by some people in this thread is absolutely deplorable!
This topic is locked. If you would like to discuss GPS's, toll roads, etc., please start a new thread. I agree that some have made some rude comments, but there are two other considerations here as well:
1) All we're doing now is going back and forth on how rude or not rude people are, which gets us nowhere;
2) I only found three instances where people crossed the line.
I will not hesitate to remove any other discussions in a similar vein. Let this topic be preserved as a lesson/reminder to us all.
I totally concur with the last statement. I was not around to see this whole thread in full force but after reading it, it seems that this particular topic just shows us how pathetic we can all get sometimes. We must all remember that we as admins have a responsibility to uphold to the rest of the community who access this forum.