In Kansas at least, it seems the Division of Vehicles within the Kansas Department of Revenue (our DMV equivalent) has taken to defacing driver's licenses as part of the renewal process, by cutting off one corner.
At my last renewal I was able to avoid this by pretending I had a room-temperature IQ. This worked because instead of having the counter clerk wield the scissors, they sent around another clerk to collect licenses from people queued up for renewal, so I could just play dumb. I don't think this will work a second time, so I am considering going without my license and saying I have lost it.
Do other states do this? What workarounds have people devised?
They don't do that here because they don't issue your new license at the DMV–they mail it to you. You're given a temporary permit that's valid when shown with your current license (even if expired; the permit is valid for 20 or 30 days).
Last time around, having my old license meant I could legally drive without corrective lenses for a little longer had I wished, as the restriction was/is only on my current one now.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2015, 03:28:54 PMIn Kansas at least, it seems the Division of Vehicles within the Kansas Department of Revenue (our DMV equivalent) has taken to defacing driver's licenses as part of the renewal process, by cutting off one corner.
PennDOT's motor vehicle division does similar.
When I get my NJ driver's license renewed, they put a hole punch through the old one and give it back to me.
But unless they're taking still-valid licenses and voiding them, why would it matter to you if they deface it? Assuming they are expired, what is the marginal value of an expired license versus an expired license with a corner chopped off?
I don't think they ever ask to see my old one here.
Why would you want your old license? If you're renewing, it's because the old one will soon be invalid, correct?
In Ohio you give them your license to start the process and they don't give the old one back to you.
In Massachusetts, you renew your license every five years, but only need to renew it in person at the RMV office every ten years. Either way, they send you your new license in the mail and have no interest in what you do with the old one.
The clipping is to prevent you from throwing it out, someone taking it, and using it as a ID if they can alter it.
When I moved to Winnipeg (and got a new licence) they threw out my old Ontario one. I wanted to keep it. :angry:
Luckily I did a colour scan of it before. :)
I don't know how common it is for a certain state/provincial agency to discard an old licence when you move.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 03:54:11 PMThey don't do that here because they don't issue your new license at the DMV–they mail it to you. You're given a temporary permit that's valid when shown with your current license (even if expired; the permit is valid for 20 or 30 days).
Kansas does something similar, except the temporary permit (which is printed on flimsy thermal paper but does have the driver's picture) seems to be valid independently of the license.
Quote from: Mr. Matté on August 21, 2015, 04:30:58 PM
When I get my NJ driver's license renewed, they put a hole punch through the old one and give it back to me.
But unless they're taking still-valid licenses and voiding them, why would it matter to you if they deface it? Assuming they are expired, what is the marginal value of an expired license versus an expired license with a corner chopped off?
They are defacing licenses with up to a month of validity left (renewal notices are typically mailed automatically a month before expiry).
I save old identification (driver's licenses, ID cards, passports, etc.) as family history papers. I prefer them to be intact or cancelled in an uniform manner (passports, for example, are cancelled by using a press to punch holes in one or both covers, and stamping the reason for cancellation and--in some cases--the duty station where cancelled inside the front cover). Defacing driver's licenses by hand, with scissors that do not produce an uniform cut, is a crude and makeshift way of doing it.
I have a collection of driver's licenses going back to the 1970's. In addition to my own expired licenses, I have the last license issued to my grandfather (who died in August 1976), which is also the only Kansas license I have without the bearer's photo. Each of these licenses is undefaced, since the DMV only recently started defacing licenses and I managed to outsmart the scissors at the last renewal. I keep all of my old licenses and passports under lock and key, so I really do not want to be bound by lowest-common-denominator policies aimed at nincompoops who can't keep their old identification secure.
Old driver's licenses are historical artifacts and there are webpages dedicated to them. Here is a New York
Times article on the history of NY driving licenses:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/17/nyregion/17licenses-evolution.html
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 21, 2015, 08:36:56 PM
I don't know how common it is for a certain state/provincial agency to discard an old licence when you move.
In the U.S. at least, isn't it common or uniform practice to require surrender of an out-of-state license when you move and get a new license, so you can't use both at once and spread out your moving violations between two or more jurisdictions?
Quote from: oscar on August 21, 2015, 08:47:18 PMIn the U.S. at least, isn't it common or uniform practice to require surrender of an out-of-state license when you move and get a new license, so you can't use both at once and spread out your moving violations between two or more jurisdictions?
Various states (or even all of them) may require it, but since (AIUI) the national driver registry covers commercial drivers only, there is no way to enforce it for noncommercial drivers except through license exchange, which requires you to present the license issued by your former jurisdiction so that it can be taken from you and returned to them for voiding and destruction.
Randy Hersh told me years ago that he collected driver's licenses from multiple states the way some collect official state maps. However, this was likely back in the days when the vast majority of states still issued licenses without photos and the DL was not yet cornerstone identification for non-driving-related purposes, like crossing the border, buying age-controlled goods, registering to vote, voting, etc.
When I moved back to Wisconsin, the DMV had a paper punch that said "VOID", which they punched into my old license then gave the voided license back to me.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2015, 09:03:48 PM
.... However, this was likely back in the days when the vast majority of states still issued licenses without photos and the DL was not yet cornerstone identification for non-driving-related purposes, like crossing the border, buying age-controlled goods, registering to vote, voting, etc.
Heh. I never use my driver's license to vote, board a plane, or when I get carded (Wegmans always cards everyone for beer or wine). I use my passport card, and it confuses the hell out of the old ladies who work the polling places. They really resent it if you don't use a driver's license and they don't even like a conventional passport book.....not that they have any say in the matter, of course.
I found my temporary permit upstairs the other day when I was cleaning up, but I shredded it before I saw this thread and thus I can't really comment much on how it looked other than to say it was a US-standard "letter" sized piece of paper with name, address, driver's license number, date of expiry, and any restrictions (mine had an "X," denoting corrective lenses are required). I presume it had an explanation of its validity in case you went out of state, though in Virginia that's never a reasonable assumption because they seem to think we spend our whole lives inside the Commonwealth!
Quote from: Big John on August 21, 2015, 09:10:29 PM
When I moved back to Wisconsin, the DMV had a paper punch that said "VOID", which they punched into my old license then gave the voided license back to me.
Maybe it was a different region or varied office to office, (or budget cuts?), but before Wisconsin moved to the licenses by mail, I recall seeing them using a regular hole punch (just a hole, no 'VOID' or any other word) to invalidate the license.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2015, 03:28:54 PM
In Kansas at least, it seems the Division of Vehicles within the Kansas Department of Revenue (our DMV equivalent) has taken to defacing driver's licenses as part of the renewal process, by cutting off one corner.
At my last renewal I was able to avoid this by pretending I had a room-temperature IQ. This worked because instead of having the counter clerk wield the scissors, they sent around another clerk to collect licenses from people queued up for renewal, so I could just play dumb. I don't think this will work a second time, so I am considering going without my license and saying I have lost it.
Do other states do this? What workarounds have people devised?
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that you get to keep your old license, but one corner is cut off of it? If so, why is this a problem and why do you wish to avoid it? For what purpose would you want to keep your old license intact?
Quote from: hbelkins on August 21, 2015, 11:37:49 PMI'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that you get to keep your old license, but one corner is cut off of it? If so, why is this a problem and why do you wish to avoid it? For what purpose would you want to keep your old license intact?
Yes, they hand the defaced license back to you, and you can keep it if so inclined. The problem is that the cut varies (sometimes just a fingertip's worth off one corner, sometimes as much as a third of the surface area), invariably looks crude, and often removes some of the information on the license. A family member had to go in for license renewal earlier today and came back with the license cut across the address block.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2015, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 21, 2015, 11:37:49 PMI'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that you get to keep your old license, but one corner is cut off of it? If so, why is this a problem and why do you wish to avoid it? For what purpose would you want to keep your old license intact?
Yes, they hand the defaced license back to you, and you can keep it if so inclined. The problem is that the cut varies (sometimes just a fingertip's worth off one corner, sometimes as much as a third of the surface area), invariably looks crude, and often removes some of the information on the license. A family member had to go in for license renewal earlier today and came back with the license cut across the address block.
But...why is this a problem?
Quote from: hbelkins on August 21, 2015, 11:37:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 21, 2015, 03:28:54 PM
In Kansas at least, it seems the Division of Vehicles within the Kansas Department of Revenue (our DMV equivalent) has taken to defacing driver's licenses as part of the renewal process, by cutting off one corner.
At my last renewal I was able to avoid this by pretending I had a room-temperature IQ. This worked because instead of having the counter clerk wield the scissors, they sent around another clerk to collect licenses from people queued up for renewal, so I could just play dumb. I don't think this will work a second time, so I am considering going without my license and saying I have lost it.
Do other states do this? What workarounds have people devised?
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that you get to keep your old license, but one corner is cut off of it? If so, why is this a problem and why do you wish to avoid it? For what purpose would you want to keep your old license intact?
From what I read above, it reads like he somehow "uses" these documents as "historical" documents and just doesn't like them being "defaced" because he'd rather have them unmolested rather than cut or whatnot.
In short, my take on it is that it just bugs him. :hmm:
Seems to me a decent "Book of Remembrance" for family history would be a way of keeping the addresses straight and the sliced up licenses could just be supplementary rather than the primary record.
Of course, that change in approach may not satisfy him, either. So, just a suggestion.
Quote from: DaBigE on August 21, 2015, 10:39:38 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 21, 2015, 09:10:29 PM
When I moved back to Wisconsin, the DMV had a paper punch that said "VOID", which they punched into my old license then gave the voided license back to me.
Maybe it was a different region or varied office to office, (or budget cuts?), but before Wisconsin moved to the licenses by mail, I recall seeing them using a regular hole punch (just a hole, no 'VOID' or any other word) to invalidate the license.
When I moved to Wisconsin in the spring they used the VOID hole-punch on my Oklahoma license. This was after they switched to sending licenses by mail, so for a couple weeks my drivers license was printed on a 8.5x11 sheet of paper. I don't know if the 'VOID' hole-punch thing is specific to a particular office, but this was in Madison.
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2015, 12:24:07 AMFrom what I read above, it reads like he somehow "uses" these documents as "historical" documents and just doesn't like them being "defaced" because he'd rather have them unmolested rather than cut or whatnot.
There is nothing better than an intact original for seeing how driver's licenses used to look.
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2015, 12:24:07 AMIn short, my take on it is that it just bugs him. :hmm:
Seems to me a decent "Book of Remembrance" for family history would be a way of keeping the addresses straight and the sliced up licenses could just be supplementary rather than the primary record.
It does bug me (and yes, we have address records). It would probably still bug me, but significantly less, if licenses were punch-cancelled in a neat and systematic way, similar to passports, or what people have described for Wisconsin. And even if the cut does not pass through any of the data fields, it still removes part of the graphic design; on the current-generation Kansas license blank, a lower-left cut takes out part of the Capitol and one of the see-through KDOR seal holograms.
Possible solution: say you lost it and are getting a replacement. I would imagine a replacement license with less than a month of validity left would include a renewal rolled into the deal unless Kansas has particularly brain-damaged policies. (In Oklahoma, I went to get my address changed on a license once and I got a renewal with the deal because I had less than a year left on the old one, which seemed pretty generous.) This presupposes that there are not any confiscatory fees associated with replacement licenses.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2015, 01:45:33 AMPossible solution: say you lost it and are getting a replacement. I would imagine a replacement license with less than a month of validity left would include a renewal rolled into the deal unless Kansas has particularly brain-damaged policies. (In Oklahoma, I went to get my address changed on a license once and I got a renewal with the deal because I had less than a year left on the old one, which seemed pretty generous.) This presupposes that there are not any confiscatory fees associated with replacement licenses.
This is the tentative game plan for when I renew in 2018, since issue of replacement licenses is fairly straightforward: there is a fee, but it is low, and there is no requirement to produce a police report to prove loss. I figure the worst that can happen is that they call a state trooper and ask me to explain to him how I was able to get to the license bureau without a valid license on my person.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2015, 02:41:58 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2015, 01:45:33 AMPossible solution: say you lost it and are getting a replacement. I would imagine a replacement license with less than a month of validity left would include a renewal rolled into the deal unless Kansas has particularly brain-damaged policies. (In Oklahoma, I went to get my address changed on a license once and I got a renewal with the deal because I had less than a year left on the old one, which seemed pretty generous.) This presupposes that there are not any confiscatory fees associated with replacement licenses.
This is the tentative game plan for when I renew in 2018, since issue of replacement licenses is fairly straightforward: there is a fee, but it is low, and there is no requirement to produce a police report to prove loss. I figure the worst that can happen is that they call a state trooper and ask me to explain to him how I was able to get to the license bureau without a valid license on my person.
"Funny...he had that license 5 minutes ago when I pulled him over for speeding!" :-D
Funny that JN started this topic yesterday, since I had found a couple of my old expired licenses yesterday while going through stuff. New Jersey uses the hole punch method to void the old license/ID card when one renews their license. Before 9/11, motorists were allowed to renew via mail and receive a non photo license (I have one of those). After 9/11, NJMVC changed their policy and required everyone to renew in person and get their picture taken. One also had to bring documents proving who they are and their address. It has been known as the 6 point system consisting of one primary document worth 4 points (motorist's current not expired license covers this) and two secondary documents worth 1 point each. Some secondary documents may be worth 2 points, I don't remember. It's my understanding that NJ has once again changed their policy in regard to license renewal. I believe that motorists are now required to renew in person every other time. The last time I renewed mine I had to do so in person. My current license is due for renewal in 2017, so I guess I'll find out then if I'll be eligible to renew by mail.
In WV, they take your old license when you get a new one, whether it is a renewal or out-of-state transfer. It goes right in a shredder if it is a WV one, out-of-states are sent to the central office which informs the issuing state to cancel it (so you cannot say you lost it and thus have a DL in two states).
They used to have a laminator-printer on site (still do actually, because they issue lots of other IDs as well, such as gun permits, state employee's IDs, various licensed professions, etc. , which they will give you over the counter) but what they do now is give you a cardboard one that expires in 60 days and mail you the new one, which has some kind of security code on it.
In Illinois, there are two ways to renew. You can go down to the Secretary of State's Driver Services Facility and they will take you old license from you when they replace it with the new one, or...
If your driving record is completely clean, you can apply for a new one to simply be mailed to you through the Safe Driver Program. I get mine through the latter.
Minnesota recently switched to the hole-punch method (before, it was the corner-clip method). It takes about 3-4 weeks to get your new license in the mail, and you use your expired one for the picture in conjunction with a temporary paper form showing you have renewed.
New York doesn't care. I have my permit and junior license still and will be keeping my current one when the new one comes in the mail next week.
In Vermont, I had to surrender my Minnesota license when I applied for a license here.
I have all of my NC licenses since 1991 when I moved here, and I still have my old Illinois licence buried in a box somewhere-complete with the staple holes in the picture from all the times it got stapled to a ticket back in the day (do they still do that up there?)
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2015, 02:41:58 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2015, 01:45:33 AMPossible solution: say you lost it and are getting a replacement. I would imagine a replacement license with less than a month of validity left would include a renewal rolled into the deal unless Kansas has particularly brain-damaged policies. (In Oklahoma, I went to get my address changed on a license once and I got a renewal with the deal because I had less than a year left on the old one, which seemed pretty generous.) This presupposes that there are not any confiscatory fees associated with replacement licenses.
This is the tentative game plan for when I renew in 2018, since issue of replacement licenses is fairly straightforward: there is a fee, but it is low, and there is no requirement to produce a police report to prove loss. I figure the worst that can happen is that they call a state trooper and ask me to explain to him how I was able to get to the license bureau without a valid license on my person.
You can't just order a replacement license online?
In Maine, they just hole punched "VOID" into my NC license when I moved here.
Quote from: oscar on August 21, 2015, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on August 21, 2015, 08:36:56 PM
I don't know how common it is for a certain state/provincial agency to discard an old licence when you move.
In the U.S. at least, isn't it common or uniform practice to require surrender of an out-of-state license when you move and get a new license, so you can't use both at once and spread out your moving violations between two or more jurisdictions?
When I changed out my CT license for a NY license, the NY DMV took my CT license from me on the spot and stapled it to my application. It is presumably now either in a government filing cabinet somewhere or destroyed. As far as I know there would have been no legal means for me to keep it other than to not move to New York. I do still have a color scan of the front of it, though.
However, when I renewed my CT license prior to this, the DMV in Connecticut just handed my original license back to me intact. So that one I still have somewhere.
I have my original permit and all of my expired licenses from Michigan, although not all of them accessible at the moment. Here they clip the corner and staple the temporary license to it. I believe that my original license I received when I was 16 had a hold punched through the expiration date. My first license was the last of the style Michigan used with an actual picture trimmed to fit on part of the form and enclosed within lamination. Since then, the current licenses are printed in a single piece of plastic with a magnetic strip on the back, sort of like a credit card without raised numbers.
Quote from: froggie on August 22, 2015, 09:19:07 PM
In Vermont, I had to surrender my Minnesota license when I applied for a license here.
I had to do similar with my Massachusetts license (that I renewed a year earlier) when I applied for a Pennsylvania license circa 1991.
Quote from: signalman on August 22, 2015, 07:39:35 AM
Funny that JN started this topic yesterday, since I had found a couple of my old expired licenses yesterday while going through stuff. New Jersey uses the hole punch method to void the old license/ID card when one renews their license. Before 9/11, motorists were allowed to renew via mail and receive a non photo license (I have one of those). After 9/11, NJMVC changed their policy and required everyone to renew in person and get their picture taken. One also had to bring documents proving who they are and their address. It has been known as the 6 point system consisting of one primary document worth 4 points (motorist's current not expired license covers this) and two secondary documents worth 1 point each. Some secondary documents may be worth 2 points, I don't remember. It's my understanding that NJ has once again changed their policy in regard to license renewal. I believe that motorists are now required to renew in person every other time. The last time I renewed mine I had to do so in person. My current license is due for renewal in 2017, so I guess I'll find out then if I'll be eligible to renew by mail.
In general, if you have a digital license and the picture still looks like you and the signature still matches what you use, you can renew by mail. Then the next time you're up for renewal, you'll have to show up in person.
There are a few exceptions to this policy (ie: CDL license, Boat license, etc) but as long as you're a normal driver, you should be able to renew via mail.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 24, 2015, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: signalman on August 22, 2015, 07:39:35 AM
Funny that JN started this topic yesterday, since I had found a couple of my old expired licenses yesterday while going through stuff. New Jersey uses the hole punch method to void the old license/ID card when one renews their license. Before 9/11, motorists were allowed to renew via mail and receive a non photo license (I have one of those). After 9/11, NJMVC changed their policy and required everyone to renew in person and get their picture taken. One also had to bring documents proving who they are and their address. It has been known as the 6 point system consisting of one primary document worth 4 points (motorist's current not expired license covers this) and two secondary documents worth 1 point each. Some secondary documents may be worth 2 points, I don't remember. It's my understanding that NJ has once again changed their policy in regard to license renewal. I believe that motorists are now required to renew in person every other time. The last time I renewed mine I had to do so in person. My current license is due for renewal in 2017, so I guess I'll find out then if I'll be eligible to renew by mail.
In general, if you have a digital license and the picture still looks like you and the signature still matches what you use, you can renew by mail. Then the next time you're up for renewal, you'll have to show up in person.
There are a few exceptions to this policy (ie: CDL license, Boat license, etc) but as long as you're a normal driver, you should be able to renew via mail.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't exactly sure how it worked. I thought that I had a digital license prior to renewing in 2013, but maybe I didn't. I remember NJMVC changing the policy right before I last renewed my license because I remember hoping that I might be able to renew via mail. I was quite disappointed when I received my renewal notice and it saying that I had to renew in person.
As for a special license..I just have a regular operator and motorcycle license. I don't have one for boating or commercial. I keep my motorcycle endorsement renewed and valid even though I haven't owned a bike since 2007 and haven't ridden since 2010. It's cheap to keep valid and it's certainly easier than letting it lapse and then having to retest to become licensed should I want to ride again.