Twice yesterday on my bike ride, I got into a left turn lane, signaled left (as required by law) and waited for a gap in traffic to make my turn–exactly as I would in my car, the only difference being an outstretched left arm serving as a turn signal instead of a blinking amber bulb. And on both occasions, a motorist slowed to a crawl and gestured for me to make my turn.
Unfortunately, the vocabulary of motoring hand gestures is pretty much limited to "Go ahead" , "You moron" , and "F**k you" –maybe a few others. There is no gesture that adequately expresses: "Thanks for your kindness, even if misguided, but because you have no control over the adjacent lanes, if I make my turn under the false sense of security that your wave provides, I could easily be killed in a head-on collision with another vehicle and further would have no legal standing if that occurred."
And so I stayed stopped (as other opposing cars whizzed by), shook my head "no" , and the kindly motorist eventually roared off with a "goddam ungrateful kids today" look on his face. In similar situations in the past, I've gotten screamed at and flipped off by other "kindly" motorists.
In drivers' ed., I was taught that, while you should always be courteous and respect other drivers' rights, you should never "wave someone out" . The rationale being: You're not a police officer and have no authority to direct traffic, you cannot account for all other drivers' actions and other rights of way which may jeopardize the safety of the party you're trying to assist, and you may open yourself up to liability if a collision occurs as a result of your actions.
But this may vary according to various states' laws. What's your position–and what's your understanding of the law? Not just in reference to bicycles, but also in car-car situations. Have you been in a position of declining someone else's misguided courtesy, and if so, how did you handle it?
For the safety of the other motorist, I only do it if there is only one lane that they could pull into. This means if they are making a right turn and there is only one lane going in my direction, or if there are multiple lanes, and I am in the right lane, and the other lanes are occupied by stopped vehicles, so I can be sure they wouldn't be able to pull in front of anybody else.
It should never be done if there is another lane that they would have to cross that you do not have control over.
The worst is the left turn across opposing lanes on a four lane road, where one lane is clear and the car on the inside lane does the wave, and you have no idea if somebody is flying down the outside lane that will hit you.
I never wave. It's potentially dangerous and slows down the system- if people act as they legally are supposed to, everybody knows what is going on and the system will function more efficiently.
Happens all the time around here on four-lane arterials and every time it does, it makes me livid. Moreover, more than half the time, the person stops to let someone turn left in front of multiple lanes when the upcoming traffic signal is green! :banghead:
I've been that car in the outside lane more than once and have almost been hit by these fools. The only scenario I can think of where it may be acceptable is if traffic is really jammed up through signals and the upcoming light has turned red, so you stop so someone doesn't get stranded.
A few years back I saw a couple girls, about 12-14 years old, crossing a 4-lane suburban main road mid block. One old guy slowed down for them and waived them across. Fortunately I saw what was happening and slowed down myself. But they almost got wiped out as they ran across into traffic coming from the opposing direction.
It happened to me again today. The driver in the inside lane stopped and waved me on to make my left across two lanes. I could see behind him so I acknowledged him and waited for the car in the outside lane. As I started to make my turn, the inside lane driver started across the intersection.
The other thing that happens a lot here for some reason is drivers with no stop sign stopping to wave me out from mine. I don't get that.
I've seen many times at a particular roundabout the person within the roundabout is waving me or the car in front of me to enter.
Or, I'll be waiting for a line of cars to pass, then the very last car will stop to let me in.
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear :bigass:.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear :bigass:.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear :bigass:.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
^This.
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
I'm not here to discuss the legality of the maneuver, it's just what I do. I obviously wouldn't do it in front of a cop.
My neighborhood dumps out onto a road that gets routinely backed up during the evening rush, and most of the morons stuck in that jam disregard the signs emblazoned with "DO NOT BLOCK INTERSECTION." If by some chance someone happens to pause to let you through, very often they'll wave you out, even if the other direction is full of speeding traffic and you're obviously trying to turn that direction. There's been fatal accidents at that intersection before for other reasons, but I'm dreading the day that a kind but half-thought-out gesture turns into a deadly pileup there.
I don't pay much attention to the misguided wavers when I'm on a bike. I can't make it my problem that they can't see why I still can't go. I occasionally shrug and point to the still-moving cars, but mostly just wait.
As a driver I stop when a pedestrian is about to enter (or has entered) the road. I figure this is also a good attention-getter for other drivers who were not otherwise planning to stop.
I generally only wave others on when it will not impact traffic that has the right of way (like in nearly-stopped traffic when someone is trying to cross, or has visibly waited through a seemingly intractable period of no opportunity to pull in).
As a pedestrian I will walk in front of the stopped car and wait for someone to stop in the other lane, often because this is necessary to induce a serious consideration of stopping.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
I'm not here to discuss the legality of the maneuver, it's just what I do. I obviously wouldn't do it in front of a cop.
The problem is, if the other lane is still moving you won't know if a cop will show up or not
FWIW, the example
I gave above was turning from the center lane of a five-lane roadway onto a side street.
Quote from: briantroutman on August 23, 2015, 06:23:20 PM
Have you been in a position of declining someone else's misguided courtesy, and if so, how did you handle it?
Were you turning onto the main road from a side street, or a side street onto a main road?
Quote from: corco on August 24, 2015, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
I'm not here to discuss the legality of the maneuver, it's just what I do. I obviously wouldn't do it in front of a cop.
The problem is, if the other lane is still moving you won't know if a cop will show up or not
If it takes that long, I'm trading paint.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2015, 04:22:36 AM
Quote from: corco on August 24, 2015, 12:06:41 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 23, 2015, 11:21:56 PM
For the OP:
In that situation, I will pull into the #1 lane and wait for the #2 lane to clear, usually by placing the nose of my car in view of the drivers in the #2 lane, which will then usually stop. Sometimes, this results in me blocking the #1 lane, but hey, he waived for me to go, so he gets to wait.
In your situation, there is no reason you have to complete the entire turn in one fell swoop. Take advantage of his courtesy by blocking his path while you wait for the second lane to clear.
Tell that to the cop that's approaching in the #1 lane
I'm not here to discuss the legality of the maneuver, it's just what I do. I obviously wouldn't do it in front of a cop.
The problem is, if the other lane is still moving you won't know if a cop will show up or not
If it takes that long, I'm trading paint.
It doesn't have to take that long. The cop could pull out from a driveway or the next block over, in either direction. Or, he can come up behind you.
Either way, you're now not blocking one vehicle; you're blocking an entire lane of traffic. You have the stop sign; they don't. The traffic waver is just going to leave if you cause an accident, which means you're going to be held liable. Even if the waver stayed, you'll still be held liable in an accident.
In many states, if you wave someone out and an accident occurs, you can bear some liability in the accident.
Massachusetts has a specific court case placing liability on the driver of a phone (whatever the company was called at the time) truck stopping to let a pedestrian cross where there was no crosswalk on a 4 lane road. The truck shielded the pedestrian from seeing the car coming down the lane beside it, pretty much leading a lamb to slaughter.
(Before anyone questions how I know all this, I'm not a lawyer but an auto claims adjuster).
As a cyclist, I get really infuriated with people who do the same to me, it is literally attempting to kill someone with kindness.
I don't usually wave people out. That said, on my morning commute there's a section of roadway where I'm routinely waiting for a long light. It's three lanes wide in my direction, and if the queue ends at the edge of a driveway when I get there, I'll often stop at the other end. There's usually a few people that turn left into the driveway from the other direction, so if I see that nobody's approaching on the other two lanes, I'll wave them through.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 24, 2015, 06:08:45 AM
It doesn't have to take that long. The cop could pull out from a driveway or the next block over, in either direction. Or, he can come up behind you.
Either way, you're now not blocking one vehicle; you're blocking an entire lane of traffic. You have the stop sign; they don't. The traffic waver is just going to leave if you cause an accident, which means you're going to be held liable. Even if the waver stayed, you'll still be held liable in an accident.
I misunderstood the OP, which is why I said, yesterday...
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2015, 12:09:17 AM
the example I gave above was turning from the center lane of a five-lane roadway onto a side street.
They have the right-of-way, but they are not legally permitted to block my movement. If I begin my maneuver, I
should have some degree of right-of-way (though I'm not entirely certain).
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2015, 01:14:43 PM
They have the right-of-way, but they are not legally permitted to block my movement. If I begin my maneuver, I should have some degree of right-of-way (though I'm not entirely certain).
Correct. They can't 'Block the Box' (although in some areas there are so many driveways, business entrances, etc., that's nearly impossible).
I wonder how these signs in Walpole, Mass., muddy the legalities:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/420/19621988693_e3fbfaea75.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vTVPBT)
Where I'm living, right in the entry, there is no stop sign for the main road, but people seem to constantly stop at the first 4 way intersection and wave for the side street traffic to go. I hate it as it generally takes more time to communicate with them then it would have for them to just proceed going so their "courtesy" is just slowing down the side road traffic, the people behind them, and everyone else. I really don't get it. Its not that complicated, don't block a driveway/intersection, so if you need to stop because you won't clear it, you should let someone (or a few people) out from the driveway, but don't stop all the traffic behind you to let someone out. You're slowing down many more people
I can't offhand think of a single time I've ever waved a bicyclist in front of me. Of course, I live in New York City. No one waves anyone out here. We just cut each other off.
I have in my time waved plenty of pedestrians across the street in front of me (the right of way is usually legally theirs), but I'd never do this on a road with more than two lanes for the aforementioned reason of being unable to ensure the other lane in my direction is safe to cross.
Another situation where waving someone out works is if there's congestion and someone is trying to make a right turn out of a driveway. One can ensure their safety since they conflict only with the lane you're in.
Wow I didn't know that was illegal, maybe it's legal in Indiana I don't know. I only do it at 4 way stops because no one knows who got there first a lot of times. Occasionally I'll do it on traffic to allow people to go in front of me.
It's illegal in New York, but a lot of people do it, especially in Western New York. Person who waves is partially liable and waving/blindly following a wave on a road test is grounds for immediate failure. Blocking the box is illegal as well, though that is also rarely followed/enforced around here.
Typically, I never wave people out and I never stop in an intersection, much to the annoyance of other drivers. Only time I will wave is in a merge situation if there is heavy traffic and a person in motion at a similar speed is attempting to merge into my lane due to a blockage/lane drop.
People do it all the time in South Dakota (yours truly among them). I haven't seen any accidents yet.
I also get waved when I'm running; it's kinda nice.
I have no idea if it's illegal here. Nobody said anything in Driver's Ed, and no one cares.
Quote from: corco on August 23, 2015, 06:47:10 PM
The worst is the left turn across opposing lanes on a four lane road, where one lane is clear and the car on the inside lane does the wave, and you have no idea if somebody is flying down the outside lane that will hit you.
Heck, I've seen the accident happen for that very reason. Four-lane road, somebody on the inside did the wave, little Geo Metro starts to turn left and gets spun around 360 into the grass by somebody coming through on the outside. I saw it unfolding, knew exactly what was going to happen, and then it happened.
So for that reason, I never do the wave in that situation, and I almost* never accept it. Usually I'll either pretend not to see the guy waving at me, or if I really have to communicate my intention not to proceed, the gesture I've adopted is to take both hands off the wheel in a hands-up, "surrender" type of pose.
(*Once in a great while, I will accept the wave once I've seen that all conflicting lanes have yielded to me, but that usually happens when congestion is such that it really becomes their duty not to block the box at that point.)
Another scenario where I dislike "the wave" is if I'm waiting to enter a main road from a side street, and someone on the main road is waiting to turn left into my street. Once traffic has cleared for their left turn, sometimes they'll "wave me out" in front of them instead of taking their turn ahead of me, as is their right-of-way. Problem is, their visibility of oncoming traffic isn't necessarily the same as mine; they may know they're clear to turn off but I can't yet see whether I'm clear to pull out–and by the time I realize they're not making the turn I assumed they were, it has become too late for me to make mine anyway. (And on top of that, my vision is such that I need to allow a bigger buffer of time when pulling out: I don't judge distance quite as well as the average person so I err on the side of caution; my wife is always saying, "You totally could have made that.")
This used to happen to me a lot in Pittsburgh, not so much around New York (even Upstate). It's particularly infuriating when they're the only car I even need to wait for; there's tons of space behind them, and if they'd just hurry up and get on with their movement, we could all just go about our day with no problem!
Exact situation happened to me yesterday. The oncoming SUV in the #1 lane 'waved' me through into a shopping center parking lot. But because of his size, I could not see traffic in the #2 or #3 lanes. He had room to proceed past the driveway I wanted to turn into, but refused out of misguided politeness. I refused to turn out of a desire to live (the limit in the area is 45, and people regularly do 10 over in the far right trying to bypass slowed traffic on the left.)
If he'd just moved instead of trying to be polite, I could have made it easily (turns out there was no traffic in the #2 or #3 lane). Instead he delayed me several minutes for the next traffic break (and delayed himself not-at-all).
I don't mind people trying to be nice, but they need to be situationally aware first.
Quote from: SD Mapman on August 24, 2015, 10:19:45 PM
People do it all the time in South Dakota (yours truly among them). I haven't seen any accidents yet.
I also get waved when I'm running; it's kinda nice.
I have no idea if it's illegal here. Nobody said anything in Driver's Ed, and no one cares.
It's illegal. Basically, one is supposed to remain stopped at a stop sign until other traffic has passed. A motorist does not have any legal right to suddenly decide that someone can go through a stop sign with other traffic present.
And just because you don't hear about accidents caused by this doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Unless you're informed of every accident and everyone's story of how it happened, of course you're not going to hear about it!
http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2015/08/police-angry-md-motorist-beats-cyclist-throws-bike-tire-into-woods/
Similar to what's being discussed-bicyclist waved motorist around, which escalated into bicycle being hit, bicyclist assaulted, and (according to the crack reporting) "bicycle tire" being thrown into the woods.
I've had it happen to me where I've been the victim of such a wave.
I was in the left turn lane on Western Avenue in Chicago, slowing down for a red light when I saw a car all of the sudden pop out from between two vehicles, too close to stop at the speed I was traveling (about 5 mph). I hit her front bumper and tore it partially off. We both got out an looked at it, and she then proceeded to scream at me, "you was speedin'!". I tried to explain to her that I obviously could not be speeding as I had to slow down for a red light. It was in vain. Well, a City of Chicago police office showed up and looked at the accident. He asked me my story, and then asked her hers. As it turned out, the drivers of the vehicles she came out from in front of waved her out so she could make a left onto Western Avenue. He said she went as soon as they waved her. The police officer then turned to her and said, "lady, you know you're supposed to look first." Her jaw hit the pavement about that time. Needless to say, she got a ticket for it, and her insurance picked up my repairs 100%.
I do not wave people out at all. If I stop before an intersection, or a driveway, as far as I'm concerned, you're on your own to stop and look.
Quote from: vdeane on August 24, 2015, 12:44:34 PM
I don't usually wave people out. That said, on my morning commute there's a section of roadway where I'm routinely waiting for a long light. It's three lanes wide in my direction, and if the queue ends at the edge of a driveway when I get there, I'll often stop at the other end. There's usually a few people that turn left into the driveway from the other direction, so if I see that nobody's approaching on the other two lanes, I'll wave them through.
I largely feel similar. I never block the box at an intersection, regardless of whether there's a traffic light or stop sign or nothing at all–even if I don't have a stop sign, I see no reason to pull out into the box because I don't see the point in blocking people on the other street even if nobody's there when I pull up. (Of course, I've been burned once or twice when a large dump truck or the like came along, pulled out to turn, but then stopped in front of me due to traffic coming the other way.) Some people become absolutely infuriated if you don't block the box, though. I've been honked at, given the finger, and seen people pull around so they can cut back in front of me to block the box. I don't understand that attitude. (Being given the finger makes me all the less likely to move, of course.)
Yesterday I accidentally blocked a busy driveway exiting a Metrorail parking garage when the guy in front of me, who I thought was going to pull all the way up, instead left almost a full carlength in front of him when he stopped. I felt bad for blocking the guy exiting the garage but felt better when he ultimately pulled in behind me instead of going two lanes over. (I use that garage regularly and I know how hard it is to exit there....so I use a different exit!)
Sunday afternoon Ms1995hoo got annoyed when I waved a guy out of a gas station. He wanted to go the same direction we were going and I was in the right thru lane, but there was a right-turn-only lane to my right. When I waved him out, I couldn't see the car coming down the turn lane behind me. Ms1995hoo thought I should have gone because of that car. Of course he saw the car coming and waited. But you know what, the delay was a whole ten seconds, so who cares. I think there is a very big difference between waving someone out to go the same way as you versus waving someone out to cross several lanes of traffic to turn left (which in this case was not an option due to a median).
I've declined to go multiple times when people have waved me across to make a left turn near our neighborhood. In every case it's been because I could see traffic coming in the other two lanes. When that happens, I usually point to the other lane and give a "what can I do" gesture. Never gotten an annoyed reaction from anyone in the manner some other people in this thread have described.
Quote from: davewiecking on August 25, 2015, 09:22:57 AM
http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2015/08/police-angry-md-motorist-beats-cyclist-throws-bike-tire-into-woods/
Similar to what's being discussed-bicyclist waved motorist around, which escalated into bicycle being hit, bicyclist assaulted, and (according to the crack reporting) "bicycle tire" being thrown into the woods.
Neither one of those is in the right, and both deserve tickets, and one should be arrested for the beating.
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2015, 12:05:37 AM
This used to happen to me a lot in Pittsburgh, not so much around New York (even Upstate). It's particularly infuriating when they're the only car I even need to wait for; there's tons of space behind them, and if they'd just hurry up and get on with their movement, we could all just go about our day with no problem!
Exact thing happened to me just a couple of days ago where I was waiting my turn to turn left from a side street onto Central Avenue in Albany. Someone wanting to turn left into the side street from Central waved me out instead of just turning left like he should have.
It is indeed frustrating the time wasted by all the attempts to communicate by hand gesture.
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2015, 09:39:58 AM
It is indeed frustrating the time wasted by all the attempts to communicate by hand gesture.
That's a problem at multi-way stop signs, too, whether people are waving you on and disrupting the right-of-way order, or even when there's genuine confusion as to whose turn it is.
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2015, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2015, 12:05:37 AM
This used to happen to me a lot in Pittsburgh, not so much around New York (even Upstate). It's particularly infuriating when they're the only car I even need to wait for; there's tons of space behind them, and if they'd just hurry up and get on with their movement, we could all just go about our day with no problem!
Exact thing happened to me just a couple of days ago where I was waiting my turn to turn left from a side street onto Central Avenue in Albany. Someone wanting to turn left into the side street from Central waved me out instead of just turning left like he should have.
It is indeed frustrating the time wasted by all the attempts to communicate by hand gesture.
I live on a side street that is just off of a main street, and when I return home I typically have to make a left turn from the main street onto that side street. If there is a car parked near the corner on the side of the street that I'm turning into (or even worse, both sides) and someone is trying to make a left from that side street onto the Main Street, I stop and waive them to go. I either do that, or I turn onto my street and stop behind a parked car and wait for the guy making a left out of my street to go, because there is no room to go through. I don't know if this describes your situations but that is why I sometime stop on the main street and waive out a car from a side street.
In addition to everything else that's been said about this practice, it also ticks me off that someone will stop, holding up a line of drivers all of whom have the right-of-way, because they think they're being "polite" by letting someone else (who doesn't have the right-of-way) turn left or pass a STOP sign when the intersection isn't clear. That someone has no regard for all of those drivers behind him/her, but only sees what's in front of them.
My motto: "Give up the right-of-way when it's ONLY yours to give up."
Quote from: SidS1045 on August 25, 2015, 01:08:30 PM
My motto: "Give up the right-of-way when it's ONLY yours to give up."
Yeah, but what's the point then? The only reason you'd give someone else the right-of-way is because traffic is shit and you feel bad for them. If you're the only one there, they can just pull out after you.
Because I don't think I've mentioned it yet, if there's a car pulling out of a side-street or driveway, I will make a gap. If they want to go, they are certainly welcome to (but I won't wave). If they do, usually I'll motion for them to go if I see that it's clear. However, I won't stop well before the next car in my lane to let someone out. I will only leave a gap if moving forward would block the car from pulling out.
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
No.
As has been mentioned, there are plenty of places where roads are fully congested to the point where all side roads will cease to function without their traffic either forcing its way in, or someone allowing them to enter.
I periodically sit in such stopped traffic on a route I travel routinely in the rush hour. If traffic starts to move and I'm stopped right before such a street, I'll let someone in.
I've considered the pros and cons and the value if time, and I'm not really that concerned about the five seconds of my time and others' that this costs. I don't owe anyone the preservation of a handful of their seconds. Leave the house earlier.
Society depends on give and take, particularly in crowds and broken systems like overwhelmed roads full of traffic. There are assholes in the subway, too, that insist no one get in the pack until they barrel through, and there's a special place in hell for them, too.
^^ There's politeness, and then there's being a jerk to all of those behind you. Stopping short of a driveway or intersection is common courtesy. Stopping in the traffic flow when the signal is green just to wave someone out, and you and all those behind you can go through at speed, is being a jerk.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 25, 2015, 04:08:54 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
No.
As has been mentioned, there are plenty of places where roads are fully congested to the point where all side roads will cease to function without their traffic either forcing its way in, or someone allowing them to enter.
I periodically sit in such stopped traffic on a route I travel routinely in the rush hour. If traffic starts to move and I'm stopped right before such a street, I'll let someone in.
I've considered the pros and cons and the value if time, and I'm not really that concerned about the five seconds of my time and others' that this costs. I don't owe anyone the preservation of a handful of their seconds. Leave the house earlier.
Society depends on give and take, particularly in crowds and broken systems like overwhelmed roads full of traffic. There are assholes in the subway, too, that insist no one get in the pack until they barrel through, and there's a special place in hell for them, too.
Quote from: Brandon on August 25, 2015, 04:17:16 PM
^^ There's politeness, and then there's being a jerk to all of those behind you. Stopping short of a driveway or intersection is common courtesy. Stopping in the traffic flow when the signal is green just to wave someone out, and you and all those behind you can go through at speed, is being a jerk.
Agree with both of you. If I'm stopped, I'll let someone in, partially because it's illegal (at least around here) to block an intersection and I know that some of these people would wait for an hour if someone didn't wait 2 seconds for them to dart out immediately after the light changes.
When I refer to "waving out", I mean the idiots who will stop moving to let someone out or those who let someone make an opposing left turn in front of them. They're as bad as the assholes who speed past and try and squeeze into a turn/exit lane at the last possible moment (and the idiots who let them in, of course).
Quoteblock the box
Are we making a distinction between left turns and going straight?
If I'm going straight, I won't enter the intersection if I can't get all the way through. When I'm making a left turn, though, I'll pull into the intersection and wait there for a break in oncoming traffic (which is what the NYS Drivers Manual says to do).
We also have a Tim Hortons/Wendy's combo with intersecting drive-thru lanes. When waiting in the Wendy's logjam, I leave a space for exiting Timmy's traffic to cross. Oh, the other Wendy's traffic hates that.
Quote from: Sam on August 25, 2015, 09:33:25 PM
Quoteblock the box
Are we making a distinction between left turns and going straight?
Yes. Stopping while in the process of making a permissive left turn is perfectly legal.
I seldom pull into the intersection to wait to turn left because in most cases I find it easier to see if I'm behind the stop bar, especially given the proliferation of large SUVs and minivans, and even more so if THEY pull out halfway. The only time anyone's ever honked at me for not pulling out was in Weston, Florida, and I'll concede the intersection there (somewhere on Bonaventure Boulevard) was a much larger space and here it probably wouldn't have had a permissive green.
There are also a couple of lights through which I pass regularly where the green arrow is at the end of the cycle, rather than the beginning, and the people who pull out to wait often can't see the light and don't know the green arrow is on until either they realize why the people going the other way stopped or someone honks. If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.
But when I referred to blocking the box I was using the term in the New York City sense, or for that matter the British "box junction" sense, either of those being you do not enter the box unless you know you will be able to clear it. However, I view it as blocking the box if you are at an intersection that, on your street, is uncontrolled and you pull out and block traffic on the intersecting street. After all, you're preventing people on the other street from going anywhere when you do that.
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
I'm re-reading this a little more carefully and now understand that you're getting at the fact that you were in an accident as a result of someone waving someone through. I do not mean to sound like I'm putting down your suffering. It was not initially clear to me from the indirect description. The repeated all-caps "NEVER" admittedly took the bulk of my attention. The "missing 15 minutes" was a little obtuse and sounded like a reference to time lost in traffic.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 25, 2015, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
I'm re-reading this a little more carefully and now understand that you're getting at the fact that you were in an accident as a result of someone waving someone through. I do not mean to sound like I'm putting down your suffering. It was not initially clear to me from the indirect description. The repeated all-caps "NEVER" admittedly took the bulk of my attention. The "missing 15 minutes" was a little obtuse and sounded like a reference to time lost in traffic.
You must have missed the fact that I stated I was missing my memory of those fifteen minutes. The collision was in 2011. I still don't have full feeling in my face and I still have NO MEMORY of the event. Are you willing to accept that should your "waving" create that for another? You want to be kind to another, don't create a potentially life-threatening hazard where none existed before. They can wait and proceed when it is safe, not when you deem it safe. Obtuse? Try reading the post first before making light of someone else's ongoing pain. THAT is beyond RUDE.
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 11:28:10 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 25, 2015, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
I'm re-reading this a little more carefully and now understand that you're getting at the fact that you were in an accident as a result of someone waving someone through. I do not mean to sound like I'm putting down your suffering. It was not initially clear to me from the indirect description. The repeated all-caps "NEVER" admittedly took the bulk of my attention. The "missing 15 minutes" was a little obtuse and sounded like a reference to time lost in traffic.
You must have missed the fact that I stated I was missing my memory of those fifteen minutes. The collision was in 2011. I still don't have full feeling in my face and I still have NO MEMORY of the event. Are you willing to accept that should your "waving" create that for another? You want to be kind to another, don't create a potentially life-threatening hazard where none existed before. They can wait and proceed when it is safe, not when you deem it safe. Obtuse? Try reading the post first before making light of someone else's ongoing pain. THAT is beyond RUDE.
Spare us the pitty, Michael. He apologized...move on. We've all been mis-understood many, many times on this forum; you're gonna need to get used to it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2015, 10:06:59 PM
If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.
Or they could install side-mount signals. I've never caught onto the whole overhead-only signals fad. Why should I have to crane my neck to see the signal?
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 11:28:10 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 25, 2015, 11:08:51 PM
Quote from: sdmichael on August 25, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
NEVER... I REPEAT NEVER "wave" someone out, EVER. You aren't in control of the situation, you don't control traffic. STOP pretending to be a traffic cop. I'm missing 15 minutes of my life as I cannot remember it at all plus feeling in part of my face because of some asshole that was "just being nice" and waved someone else out in front of me. NEVER do it.
I'm re-reading this a little more carefully and now understand that you're getting at the fact that you were in an accident as a result of someone waving someone through. I do not mean to sound like I'm putting down your suffering. It was not initially clear to me from the indirect description. The repeated all-caps "NEVER" admittedly took the bulk of my attention. The "missing 15 minutes" was a little obtuse and sounded like a reference to time lost in traffic.
You must have missed the fact that I stated I was missing my memory of those fifteen minutes. The collision was in 2011. I still don't have full feeling in my face and I still have NO MEMORY of the event. Are you willing to accept that should your "waving" create that for another? You want to be kind to another, don't create a potentially life-threatening hazard where none existed before. They can wait and proceed when it is safe, not when you deem it safe. Obtuse? Try reading the post first before making light of someone else's ongoing pain. THAT is beyond RUDE.
Actually I didn't make light of it. As I said, the post I quoted didn't make it clear to me, and I responded to how it read to me, and then took the time to acknowledge that my post was based on a misapprehension (and to views held by many). There's such a thing as graciously accepting someone's admission they made a mistake, you know.
I'm sorry for your suffering. Not every experience applies to every situation, though, and in continually nearly-stopped traffic, side streets completely cease to function unless courtesy is shown by those in traffic (who are breaking the law in some cases by
not allowing that traffic in). Waiting for an opportunity to organically arise in these cases could take an hour or more, and will only drive people to even less-safe behavior.
I also don't expect someone to proceed beyond whatever space I allow without assuring any other way they cross is also safe to cross.
It's a mistake to think one's judgement is good enough for another driver to accept at face value. It is also a mistake for that driver to accept your judgement at face value. Neither fact means drivers can't exercise good judgement.
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 10:49:23 AM
From the Illinois Secretary of State, Illinois Rules of the Road (http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a112.pdf), page 22:
QuoteA driver must yield the right-of-way to other drivers or pedestrians:
* To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.
* Even after the light turns green when there are vehicles in the intersection.
QuoteChapter 4 Study Questions:
3. How should a driver proceed if within an intersection waiting to make a left turn
and the traffic signal light turns red?
a. Wait in the intersection until the light turns green.
b. Yield to oncoming traffic and complete the turn.
c. Make sure it is clear, then back up from the intersection.
The correct answer is b.
Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?
Bold emphasis added:
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 12:46:47 PMYeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?
Given the number of
transplants to the Sunshine State, I would say Number 3 in your post.
Just my own two off-topic cents:
Most countries in the world that I've studied wait in the intersection to turn. In fact, America seems to be only place in the world where that isn't entirely common practice. Even Canada waits in the center of the intersection. Many countries even paint little boxes in the intersection where you should wait to turn.
As for here in America, California also instructs its drivers to wait in the intersection. As they put it, "the light is green, you may legally enter the intersection". The color when you leave is irrelevant -- you passed the stop line on green, there's no running of the light. And traffic already in the intersection has priority, so there's no concern about blocking traffic (which doesn't happen anyway, since you are always able to leave when the light turns yellow or red, as oncoming traffic always stop).
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 01:06:07 PM
Just my own two off-topic cents:
Most countries in the world that I've studied wait in the intersection to turn. In fact, America seems to be only place in the world where that isn't entirely common practice.
Even then, it seems to be a distinct minority that will not enter the intersection. I encounter it mostly with folks who hail from downstate in Illinois (Bloomington, Peoria, etc.).
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2015, 10:06:59 PM
There are also a couple of lights through which I pass regularly where the green arrow is at the end of the cycle, rather than the beginning, and the people who pull out to wait often can't see the light and don't know the green arrow is on until either they realize why the people going the other way stopped or someone honks. If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.
On the other hand, when the lead car pulls into the intersection, no matter how heavy oncoming traffic is, that car is guaranteed to get through the light (when it turns red and forces oncoming traffic to stop). Waiting behind the stop line removes that guarantee. It also increases the time needed to turn, by putting everyone further back. Both factors decrease the left turn throughput of the intersection. In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2015, 06:28:13 PM
In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.
If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through. I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green. If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.
Paul
Quote from: PaulRAnderson on August 26, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2015, 06:28:13 PM
In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.
If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through. I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green. If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.
But if they're all in the intersection, they're all guaranteed the chance to go. If anyone else shows up and they have to sit behind the stop line (because they physically can't move any further), then they will sit on the sensor and the light will, potentially, stay green longer. Either way, you can't lose.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2015, 06:28:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2015, 10:06:59 PM
There are also a couple of lights through which I pass regularly where the green arrow is at the end of the cycle, rather than the beginning, and the people who pull out to wait often can't see the light and don't know the green arrow is on until either they realize why the people going the other way stopped or someone honks. If they stopped behind the line, they could see the light.
On the other hand, when the lead car pulls into the intersection, no matter how heavy oncoming traffic is, that car is guaranteed to get through the light (when it turns red and forces oncoming traffic to stop). Waiting behind the stop line removes that guarantee. It also increases the time needed to turn, by putting everyone further back. Both factors decrease the left turn throughput of the intersection. In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.
Ultimately the way I see it is that I decide where I can best see the traffic coming the other way, the traffic light, etc., and if someone else doesn't like my decision, that's not my problem. I'm not looking to delay them, but I'm not going to do something I feel might be unsafe just because someone else has to wait a little longer. It's more or less routine to have a couple of cars fly through after a light turns red around here, so I err on the side of not taking chances. (Plus we don't have any car payments and I'd like to keep it that way.....)
Back when I learned to drive I was a lot more likely to pull out into the intersection than I am now, due primarily to the proliferation in more recent years of larger vehicles that just make it hard to see. In the late 1980s the minivans weren't nearly as common as they are now and the SUV fad hadn't really hit yet, so it was typically easier to see.
Regardless of all that, one thing I NEVER do is pull out with my front wheels turned to the left the way some people do. If you get rear-ended, you'll be pushed into oncoming traffic. So this issue also factors into whether I pull out or not–if someone coming the other way has pulled out in a position that would require me to turn my wheels if I pull out, I will always stay behind the line.
I suppose the moderators ought to split off the "pull out to turn left" discussion from the "wave someone out" discussion because it's a totally different issue.
Quote from: PaulRAnderson on August 26, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2015, 06:28:13 PM
In conclusion, waiting behind the stop line potentially screws over the cars behind you.
If there is a sensor in the left lane, staying behind the line would help the chances that you will all get to go through. I have seen intersections where all the cars waiting to turn left are in the intersection and are still there when the light for the other road turns green. If the left-turners had waited, their light would not have turned red as quickly.
Paul
That's not how the sensors work, at least around here. Once tripped, it usually has a set time for being green, regardless of how many vehicles are there.
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 12:46:47 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 10:49:23 AM
From the Illinois Secretary of State, Illinois Rules of the Road (http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a112.pdf), page 22:
QuoteA driver must yield the right-of-way to other drivers or pedestrians:
* To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while
the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.
* Even after the light turns green when there are vehicles in the intersection.
QuoteChapter 4 Study Questions:
3. How should a driver proceed if within an intersection waiting to make a left turn
and the traffic signal light turns red?
a. Wait in the intersection until the light turns green.
b. Yield to oncoming traffic and complete the turn.
c. Make sure it is clear, then back up from the intersection.
The correct answer is b.
Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?
Florida is the same way as well, at least, thats what they teach at the DMV and I'd say most people do it (although there are plenty of people who put their car in reverse instead of completing the turn when the light turns red, which is highly illegal). Florida's law says you cannot enter the intersection on red, but if you are already in it, you should complete your movement after yielding.
I don't know what the law is in NJ, but the way I do it (when protected left precedes permissive left and it is currently the permissive phase) is, if there is already a car or 2 in the intersection, I'll follow them in. If there is not, I will generally wait to enter the intersection until I see a *potential* break in the oncoming traffic. If I misjudged it or the light cycles to red shortly after I entered the intersection, so be it. It doesn't happen very often. I think that's pretty much in line with what I see others do, although many seem to enter the intersection regardless.
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 27, 2015, 05:11:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 12:46:47 PM
Yeah, that's how it's done, although the fact that this isn't universally understood sheds some light on things, such as Florida. Are their drivers taught differently, and if so, is it because Florida itself teaches them differently, or because so many Floridians didn't learn to drive in Florida?
Florida is the same way as well, at least, thats what they teach at the DMV and I'd say most people do it (although there are plenty of people who put their car in reverse instead of completing the turn when the light turns red, which is highly illegal). Florida's law says you cannot enter the intersection on red, but if you are already in it, you should complete your movement after yielding.
Interesting; I wonder if it's different in Miami than Orlando? I just spent about a month in North Miami and saw almost nobody pull out to turn left. To be fair, though, there were a couple of spots where, having pulled out to turn left, one could get stuck after the light turns red because of oncoming traffic having an extended green phase.
The extended green thing is one reason why I'm reluctant to pull out if I'm unfamiliar with the intersection. I've been enough places where they don't put up the warning sign that I'm now wary of that.
I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 02:42:40 PM
I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.
That is the rule in Illinois. You can sit in the intersection all damn day after it has turned red if you need to should traffic not yet clear as long as you enter on green or yellow. That rule even extends to red light cameras. Once you enter on green or yellow, the camera's existence does not matter.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 03:25:11 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 02:42:40 PM
I have heard, but not confirmed, that the rule here is that you have run the red light only if all wheels cross the stop line after the light turns red.
That is the rule in Illinois. You can sit in the intersection all damn day after it has turned red if you need to should traffic not yet clear as long as you enter on green or yellow. That rule even extends to red light cameras. Once you enter on green or yellow, the camera's existence does not matter.
New York agrees, as long as you don't
stop in the intersection
As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.
It's not, but it's proper practice. You won't get a ticket for not doing so, but you might have to wait several cycles to make your turn if you don't enter the intersection.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.
Some might consider not pulling into the intersection as impeding the flow of traffic. Some. Maybe.
Quote from: cl94 on August 28, 2015, 10:01:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
As a semi-semantic matter, I find it interesting that some folks apparently feel that if a state's law allows you to enter the intersection, you must do so. Obviously, that's not the case.
It's not, but it's proper practice. You won't get a ticket for not doing so, but you might have to wait several cycles to make your turn if you don't enter the intersection.
As has already been shown, it's not necessarily "proper practice" everywhere (see the posts above about Oregon prohibiting being in the intersection when the light turns red, for example). This is the other thing I often find mildly amusing or frustrating about discussions of this sort–lots of people (I'm not saying anyone here in particular, nor am I thinking about members of this forum) will say things like, "People here are driving incorrectly. In California I was taught _____ and people here aren't doing that." Just because someone learned it in one state doesn't make it "right" (or, in the "pull out to turn left" case, legal) everywhere else. The principle extends to other things like speed cameras–I've seen people recommending their friends fight DC speed camera tickets because "it's not valid if the picture doesn't show your face." Wrong. That's the law in Arizona, but in DC it's exactly the opposite.
In general, any time someone says something is "the law" or "the proper practice" without specifying a particular jurisdiction, I'm immediately skeptical. Of course there are exceptions for things that may not be legally required that reflect courtesy, like not cruising for long periods in the passing lane (I say "passing lane" so as to include countries where you drive on the left). In the case of "pull out to turn left," if Oregon prohibits said maneuver, that's sufficient reason for skepticism of a blanket "proper practice" statement.
If I had my way, states like Oregon would be forced to change their laws on the matter. What are you supposed to do if you can't find a gap in the traffic there? Sit in the travel lane until midnight?
And that's not a hypothetical... it's a situation I've encountered several times in NY alone.
I don't think people really were taught how to do certain things; I think they just started doing some things themselves. And then they swear that's the way it was, even though they never have proof of such "fact". Talking with one guy one day about parking on a residential street, he claims the law was you must park 13 feet away from a driveway. Now 13 feet is an oddly specific number. And he's only a few years older than me, and I know I wasn't taught 13 feet.
Upon further investigation, Oregon actually passed a law in 2011 that permits people to enter the intersection on a flashing yellow arrow, but not a solid green...
Quote from: ORS 811.260
Flashing yellow arrow signal. A driver facing a flashing yellow arrow signal, alone or in combination with other signal indications, may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the flashing yellow arrow signal or the movement permitted by other signals shown at the same time. A driver shall yield the right of way to other vehicles within the intersection at the time the flashing yellow arrow signal is shown. In addition, a driver turning left shall yield the right of way to other vehicles approaching from the opposite direction so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the turning vehicle is moving across or within the intersection.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 29, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
I don't think people really were taught how to do certain things; I think they just started doing some things themselves. And then they swear that's the way it was, even though they never have proof of such "fact". Talking with one guy one day about parking on a residential street, he claims the law was you must park 13 feet away from a driveway. Now 13 feet is an oddly specific number. And he's only a few years older than me, and I know I wasn't taught 13 feet.
I was taught to pull into the intersection. I didn't cross-examine this teaching, because I was 16 and didn't know how to drive, but that's what I was taught.
It's easy and not entirely unfounded to say people swear by what they think they learned. In this case I feel pretty certain because it seemed so borderline illegal to just pull in and hang out in the intersection, and I remember falling back from early on onto "that's what they taught us." Who knows, I could be wrong.
Quote from: vdeane on August 29, 2015, 08:11:13 PM
If I had my way, states like Oregon would be forced to change their laws on the matter. What are you supposed to do if you can't find a gap in the traffic there? Sit in the travel lane until midnight?
And that's not a hypothetical... it's a situation I've encountered several times in NY alone.
You know, it's funny, throughout this discussion I've been visualizing making a left turn at a doghouse signal with the permissive green, probably because off the top of my head I can't think of any left turns I've made lately at a light that didn't have a left-turn lane and a left-turn cycle of some kind (not counting left turns on residential streets or from one-way streets, of course). Until you made your comment I hadn't thought about a simple three-phase light with no turn arrow. What I'd do there would still depend on how I felt I could best see oncoming traffic, though. I can't say I'd always pull out, nor can I say I'd never pull out.
Sometimes actuated doghouses can cause issues too. The one I encounter when leaving the grocery store was programmed such that the left turn arrow almost never activated until recently. There's one on my commute the provides access to NYSDOT; it rarely activates during the evening rush, which can make returning from field work interesting.
It also seems that the amount of left turn arrows drops off rapidly when leaving the state highway system.
I was also thinking of the NY 31/US 11 light in particular. Very heavily traveled but no arrows for some reason. A guy actually honked at me for getting out of the intersection when the light turned red. Guess the eager beavers on US 11 south aren't willing to wait even a second to make sure northbound traffic isn't obstructed.