I was noticing that in Canada the word "Center" is spelled C-E-N-T-R-E instead of its usual spelling.
Also "liter" is spelled "litre" as well as "honor" is spelled "honour" and also "ton" is spelled "tonne." Why is all of this?
Quote from: roadman65 on August 26, 2015, 12:25:15 PM
I was noticing that in Canada the word "Center" is spelled C-E-N-T-R-E instead of its usual spelling.
Also "liter" is spelled "litre" as well as "honor" is spelled "honour" and also "ton" is spelled "tonne." Why is all of this?
Canada follows British, rather than U.S., spellings.
While U.S. places will sometime use "classy" British spellings like "centre", it's rare for Canadians to use U.S. spellings. Only time I've seen "center" in Canada was on a business in Brandon, Manitoba. I suspect that was a typo by a U.S.-based signmaker.
BTW, "tonnes" are metric tons (1000 kilograms), about 10% heavier than U.S. tons (2000 pounds).
It's the British spelling–which often synonymous with being the "old" (or should I say olde) spelling.
At points in American linguistic history, various groups have actively campaigned to economize the language by removing silent letters or changing spellings to be truer to the pronunciation of the word. So words like plough and colour become plow and color. Some efforts, such as turning night to nite, have been less successful.
Language and cultural historians will attribute these efforts to various causes, whether it be simplicity, consistency, or merely Americans' desire to break free from tradition. Honestly, though, it's a continuation long trend that has been in place for centuries before the founding of this country. If you go back to older forms of English, you'll see odd constructions like " twoo Stoppes of pipes, of woode vernisshed yellowe and painted with blacke..." Americans only accelerated the transformation.
Canada uses centre because it's the British spelling. Kilometre, litre, are other examples.
https://goo.gl/maps/CbezR
Others include the inclusion of the 'u' in colour, flavour etc.
The double 'l' like in 'traveller' is often used in Canada as well.
Canada doesn't follow UK strictly, as there are words like tire, (rather than the British 'tyre') that are copied from the US.
Here are more: http://www.lukemastin.com/testing/spelling/cgi-bin/database.cgi?action=view_category&database=spelling&category=A
Quote from: briantroutman on August 26, 2015, 12:39:27 PM
It's the British spelling–which often synonymous with being the "old" (or should I say olde) spelling.
It's not quite "olde" spelling. Prior to 1750 or so, many words had multiple spellings, and spelling often was decided locally. When words began to be put into dictionaries, sometimes a dictionary maker in America (Webster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster) as an example) would choose one spelling or choose to simplify the spelling while the dictionary maker in Britain (Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson) as an example) would choose the other spelling or choose not to simplify it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dictionary_of_the_English_Language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster%27s_Dictionary
Many of the US spelling changes were codified after the split with Britain; hence, Canada uses a lot of British spellings.
Even to this day, there is no consensus on some words such as "aluminum" (US) aka "aluminium" (UK), or "tire" (US/Can) aka "tyre" (UK), or "curb" (US/Can) aka "kerb" (UK). The latter two are due to the US/Canadian auto industry and the location of where it is based (Detroit/Windsor).
Last letter of the alphabet: Zee in the USA, Zed in the commonwealth.
Gallon in the USA: (rounded) 3.8L
Gallon in the UK: (rounded) 4.5L
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_American_and_British_English
Sometimes we keep words that are not used in the UK. Diaper for example is Nappy over there. Diaper is archaic to them.
Even weirder is that the US liquid gallon (as you posted) is smaller than a US dry gallon.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 26, 2015, 01:55:30 PM
Last letter of the alphabet: Zee in the USA, Zed in the commonwealth.
Gallon in the USA: (rounded) 3.8L
Gallon in the UK: (rounded) 4.5L
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_American_and_British_English
Sometimes we keep words that are not used in the UK. Diaper for example is Nappy over there. Diaper is archaic to them.
The gallon is different as the ounce was standardized (1820s, IIRC) after the US split from the UK.
I have no idea why there are two different names for the letter "z".
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 03:09:18 PM
I have no idea why there are two different names for the letter "z".
Well clearly, it was because some American decided to set the alphabet to a tune and needed the last letter to rhyme. :-)
Also, is "gaol" still a current spelling in the UK?
To expand on the above - "centre" is spelled that way through a prescriptivist notion that since it derived from "centrum" and spelled "centre" in French, that this is the proper way of spelling it. "Center" is spelled that way through a descriptivist notion that this is how it is actually pronounced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United_Kingdom
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 26, 2015, 04:12:06 PM
To expand on the above - "centre" is spelled that way through a prescriptivist notion that since it derived from "centrum" and spelled "centre" in French, that this is the proper way of spelling it. "Center" is spelled that way through a descriptivist notion that this is how it is actually pronounced.
Litre and metre are obviously from France originally as well.
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 04:00:36 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 03:09:18 PM
I have no idea why there are two different names for the letter "z".
Well clearly, it was because some American decided to set the alphabet to a tune and needed the last letter to rhyme. :-)
It wasn't just
some American; we're talking about Noah Webster here. :) I learned about the history of the name for this letter in my writing systems course.
When the Romans adopted the Greek alphabet for Latin, they called each letter by the sound. For example, B was called
bē ('bee'), D was called
dē, and so on. Z wasn't one of those letters they borrowed, so it didn't have a Latin name.
But we needed Z when borrowing Greek words into English, so it also needed a name. While other countries took Z they borrowed its Greek name
zēta, which turned into
zed. Webster, on the other hand, followed the pattern from the Romans and called it
zē ('zee').
As noted above, Canada's use of "tire" and "curb" exists because of influence by the American car industry (particularly now given the number of cars built in Canada). But some words like "cheque" were carried over because of British influence on the banking industry in Canada.
Likewise, the US often uses "theatre" because of how strong the British drama scene was here in America.
Canada also does not use the "s" as often as the British. Words like "organisation" and "realise" are spelled with a
zed in place of "s". Though older Canadians, particularly in Western Canada (who are often first-gen expats from the UK) will use the "s" because that's the way they were taught, so seeing words like "organiser" (http://i.imgur.com/u7rvzm1.jpg) is not unheard of (though my expectation is for that practice to die down over the next few decades).
Quote from: roadman65 on August 26, 2015, 12:25:15 PM
I was noticing that in Canada the word "Center" is spelled C-E-N-T-R-E instead of its usual spelling.
How exactly did you determine "center" as being the usual spelling? :-D We're the only country in the world to spell it with "-er".
I'm pretty sure I've heard somewhere that, after the American revolution, as Americans started settling on simpler spellings, the British consequently chose to settle oppositely, as a deliberate move to be less like the Americans.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 07:50:09 PM
Likewise, the US often uses "theatre" because of how strong the British drama scene was here in America.
For what it's worth, people working in the theatre industry almost invariably prefer that spelling. You might also assume that "theater" is used for the building, while "theatre" refers to the art form that goes on inside it, but I haven't actually observed that correlation (with the exception that non-stage-related uses like "movie theater" and "theater of war" do seem to favor the "-er").
Quote from: sammi on August 26, 2015, 07:30:53 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 04:00:36 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 03:09:18 PM
I have no idea why there are two different names for the letter "z".
Well clearly, it was because some American decided to set the alphabet to a tune and needed the last letter to rhyme. :-)
It wasn't just some American; we're talking about Noah Webster here. :) I learned about the history of the name for this letter in my writing systems course.
When the Romans adopted the Greek alphabet for Latin, they called each letter by the sound. For example, B was called bē ('bee'), D was called dē, and so on. Z wasn't one of those letters they borrowed, so it didn't have a Latin name.
But we needed Z when borrowing Greek words into English, so it also needed a name. While other countries took Z they borrowed its Greek name zēta, which turned into zed. Webster, on the other hand, followed the pattern from the Romans and called it zē ('zee').
It gets even more fun with the Greeks - the Greek B is "bee-tuh" in BE, while it's "bay-tuh" in AE.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 26, 2015, 09:57:42 PM
It gets even more fun with the Greeks - the Greek B is "bee-tuh" in BE, while it's "bay-tuh" in AE.
That's always struck me as odd. The AE pronunciation follows the Romance languages much more closely as the "e" sound is more like "ay" in those. We do the same with many other words where the Brits will use the long form of the vowel while we use the short form, following the examples in French and Spanish. Why the Brits use the long vowel in those is a complete mystery to me as the languages they are taken from do not use that vowel; they use what is the short vowel in English (or close to the short vowel) (ah, ay, ee, o, ooh).
Yes, Canadian usage is generally more like British than USAian, but there are exceptions too.
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 09:29:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 07:50:09 PM
Likewise, the US often uses "theatre" because of how strong the British drama scene was here in America.
For what it's worth, people working in the theatre industry almost invariably prefer that spelling. You might also assume that "theater" is used for the building, while "theatre" refers to the art form that goes on inside it, but I haven't actually observed that correlation (with the exception that non-stage-related uses like "movie theater" and "theater of war" do seem to favor the "-er").
I suspect theatre is "re" because it was already a fixed spelling in the theatre community before Noah Webster simplified spellings in his dictionary.
Now the Library of Congress subject heading is "theater" and Microsoft Word claims the correct spelling is "theater" but as you say all usage in the theatre community is "theatre".
Quote from: empirestate on August 26, 2015, 04:00:36 PMAlso, is "gaol" still a current spelling in the UK?
Yes, though we don't tend to use the word, preferring 'prison', and 'jail' is becoming much more common.
Quote from: Brandon on August 26, 2015, 10:57:57 PMThat's always struck me as odd. The AE pronunciation follows the Romance languages much more closely as the "e" sound is more like "ay" in those. We do the same with many other words where the Brits will use the long form of the vowel while we use the short form, following the examples in French and Spanish.
Greek isn't a Romance language, so why does what they do matter? And the Yanks are the ones saying it with a longer vowel.
English: UK is /biːtə/, US is /ˈbeɪtə/
Greek: ancient is /bɛːta/, modern is /' vita/
i (UK English / modern Greek) is close front vowel
eɪ (US English) is diphtong with a close-mid front vowel and a near-close near-front vowel
ɛ (Ancient Greek) is an open-mid vowel
So neither English versions got it correct, but at least the Brits match modern Greek!
We Anglophones schwa, rather than put an 'a' on the end, because of vowel shifts.
QuoteWhy the Brits use the long vowel in those is a complete mystery to me as the languages they are taken from do not use that vowel; they use what is the short vowel in English (or close to the short vowel) (ah, ay, ee, o, ooh).
The great Mediaeval vowel shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_short_A) and then ongoing developments?
Why the Americans use odd spellings is a complete mystery to me as the French spelling (in this case, unlike beta, a relevant etymological source) clearly has 'colour', 'metre'. Except it isn't - why, having taken a word from another language, do we have to pronounce it the same way as they do? Paris is case in point. Hell, the Americans can't even say town names they copied from the English the same way!
Long vowels are why Americans struggle with authentic British accents. Hell, it's why northerners can't speak southern properly 'grarse' isn't how a southerner pronounces 'grass', 'barth' isn't how we pronounce 'bath': both northerners and southerners can agree there's no r in those words, but northerners confuse the 'broad A' with an ar sound, which is noticeably different to the southern ear, but not to the northern one.
To be fair, people have been speaking English in North America for a long time now. Consider that the amount of time between Chaucer and the beginning of English colonization (227 years) is much shorter than the amount of time since the beginning of colonization (408 years).
It's somewhat astonishing that we're able to understand each other as well as we do, given the amount of time. Just goes to show the effect of technology on linguistic evolution.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 27, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
To be fair, people have been speaking English in North America for a long time now. Consider that the amount of time between Chaucer and the beginning of English colonization (227 years) is much shorter than the amount of time since the beginning of colonization (408 years).
It's somewhat astonishing that we're able to understand each other as well as we do, given the amount of time. Just goes to show the effect of technology on linguistic evolution.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight. (https://screen.yahoo.com/british-movie-000000971.html)
IDK why, but whenever I see "centre" I always pronounce it as "cen-tray" in in my head.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on August 27, 2015, 12:05:05 PM
IDK why, but whenever I see "centre" I always pronounce it as "cen-tray" in in my head.
Quite a few words in the English language have pronunciations that don't match the spelling. The word 'Colonel' is an example.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/13076/11-weirdly-spelled-words%E2%80%94and-how-they-got-way
Then there's the words like 'cheque' (as in the piece of paper that has a disclosed amount of money on it for someone) which are debatable.
I always liked environment which is pronounced en-vior- ment or government which the middle n is silent, although in broadcasting school we are taught to say the n in the word even though common usage never does.
Yes you are right to me centre is centtray in my mind too and if you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PM
...and if you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
Well of course it does. Your computer is probably set to American English. "Centre" is not the correct spelling.
The one that annoys me is when media outlets change the spelling of proper nouns. The Washington Post, for example, constantly refers to the British "Labor Party." There's no such thing–"Labour" is a proper noun. It's incorrect to change the weird spelling of someone's name–for example, NBA player Mr. Wade spells his name "Dwyane" (yes, the "y" goes before the "a") but the media never change it to the more conventional "Duane." Nor should they. The same applies to things like "Labour Party" or, to use an example from the UK media, New York's "World Trade Centre" is incorrect.
(The odd thing is, the American media generally do not change the spellings of US locations that use the British spelling. The old Capital Centre sports arena in Maryland was always spelled as I just typed it, as well it should have been, but if you change "Labour" to "Labor," shouldn't you change "Capital Centre" to "Capital Center" too?)
Besides the frequent use of "British spellings" for words in Canadian English, the use of "centre" also makes it easier for using on signs that must be in French and English.
The BBC recently had an interesting article about Canadian English: http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150820-why-is-canadian-english-unique
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 01:49:06 PM
The one that annoys me is when media outlets change the spelling of proper nouns. The Washington Post, for example, constantly refers to the British "Labor Party." There's no such thing–"Labour" is a proper noun. It's incorrect to change the weird spelling of someone's name–for example, NBA player Mr. Wade spells his name "Dwyane" (yes, the "y" goes before the "a") but the media never change it to the more conventional "Duane." Nor should they. The same applies to things like "Labour Party" or, to use an example from the UK media, New York's "World Trade Centre" is incorrect.
(The odd thing is, the American media generally do not change the spellings of US locations that use the British spelling. The old Capital Centre sports arena in Maryland was always spelled as I just typed it, as well it should have been, but if you change "Labour" to "Labor," shouldn't you change "Capital Centre" to "Capital Center" too?)
Even worse: Gray's Anatomy, when actually talking about Grey's Anatomy.
Quote from: kkt on August 27, 2015, 02:39:45 AM
I suspect theatre is "re" because it was already a fixed spelling in the theatre community before Noah Webster simplified spellings in his dictionary.
It probably has more to do with pretentiousness and/or Anglophelia than anything else. (See also: the occasional use of "centre" in proper names in the U.S.)
Anyone who really wants to delve into these things should read Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue."
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
First of all I am not attacking Canadian spelling. I am just saying that on the forum board it is showing that wavy line here. Not that I agree with it, in fact I think it should be told to those who program the speller to allow it considering that one whole nation spells things differently than the USA. That should count!
I do not make the rules here in the English Language that we Americans speak. To me I am used to center as center so when I see it spelled differently seems like something different. Just like we are used to driving on the right side of the road, but if we went to England or the US Virgin Islands it would seem weird.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 02:18:16 PM
First of all I am not attacking Canadian spelling. I am just saying that on the forum board it is showing that wavy line here. Not that I agree with it, in fact I think it should be told to those who program the speller to allow it considering that one whole nation spells things differently than the USA. That should count!
Your computer is doing the spell check based on its set language, not the forum. People in Canada, or the UK, or Australia, or New Zealand do not see a red, wavy line under "centre", but those in the US with computers set to en-US do.
Quote from: 1 on August 27, 2015, 01:53:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 01:49:06 PM
The one that annoys me is when media outlets change the spelling of proper nouns. The Washington Post, for example, constantly refers to the British "Labor Party." There's no such thing–"Labour" is a proper noun. It's incorrect to change the weird spelling of someone's name–for example, NBA player Mr. Wade spells his name "Dwyane" (yes, the "y" goes before the "a") but the media never change it to the more conventional "Duane." Nor should they. The same applies to things like "Labour Party" or, to use an example from the UK media, New York's "World Trade Centre" is incorrect.
(The odd thing is, the American media generally do not change the spellings of US locations that use the British spelling. The old Capital Centre sports arena in Maryland was always spelled as I just typed it, as well it should have been, but if you change "Labour" to "Labor," shouldn't you change "Capital Centre" to "Capital Center" too?)
Even worse: Gray's Anatomy, when actually talking about Grey's Anatomy.
The title was a play on the book's name and not the actual title of the book.
centre
Quote from: lordsutch on August 27, 2015, 01:54:39 PM
Anyone who really wants to delve into these things should read Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue."
... or read anything else by Bill Bryson for that matter ...
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We really do pronounce it cent-er on this side of the pond. I have trouble even conceiving of how the word could be pronounced without the r.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 01:49:06 PM
(The odd thing is, the American media generally do not change the spellings of US locations that use the British spelling. The old Capital Centre sports arena in Maryland was always spelled as I just typed it, as well it should have been, but if you change "Labour" to "Labor," shouldn't you change "Capital Centre" to "Capital Center" too?)
Consider also that there are Centreville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centreville,_Virginia), Fairfax County, Virginia and Centreville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centreville,_Maryland), Queen Anne's County, Maryland (both pronounced
centerville).
The one in Virginia has a significantly larger population, but the one in Maryland is an incorporated municipality and county seat.
Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2015, 06:48:02 PM
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We really do pronounce it cent-er on this side of the pond. I have trouble even conceiving of how the word could be pronounced without the r.
I'll echo this. Regardless of the spelling, I pronounce it the same way. Do Brits regard the "e" as a silent "e" in this context? In the American style I'd just view "-er" as the standard way of spelling the "r" sound. You can't write "centr," for example. "Center" is no different from "lumber" or "timber" in my view.
This thread prompts me to remember a law professor I had who was adamant that it was wrong to write "judgement." Thing is, Duke Law has a lot of international students who come from countries where "judgment" is incorrect. If I were the instructor I wouldn't mark a British spelling wrong if the person is consistent in using them (for example, also writing "colour," "tyre," "kerb," "aluminium," etc.).
(I do know one American who prefers British spellings and expressions–the latter like referring to a baseball "fixture," for instance–but for some inexplicable reason insists on referring to pro sports' player selection procedure as a "draught." Totally incorrect, of course, and it makes his schtick look rather absurd whenever he does it.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
(I do know one American who prefers British spellings and expressions–the latter like referring to a baseball "fixture," for instance–but for some inexplicable reason insists on referring to pro sports' player selection procedure as a "draught." Totally incorrect, of course, and it makes his schtick look rather absurd whenever he does it.)
Sort of an in-language version of hyperforeignism. Like a
latté.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
This thread prompts me to remember a law professor I had who was adamant that it was wrong to write "judgement." Thing is, Duke Law has a lot of international students who come from countries where "judgment" is incorrect. If I were the instructor I wouldn't mark a British spelling wrong if the person is consistent in using them (for example, also writing "colour," "tyre," "kerb," "aluminium," etc.).
There's a whole thing on the 'judgement' versus 'judgment' thing online.
http://grammarist.com/spelling/judgment-judgement/
Quote from: briantroutman on August 27, 2015, 08:21:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
(I do know one American who prefers British spellings and expressions–the latter like referring to a baseball "fixture," for instance–but for some inexplicable reason insists on referring to pro sports' player selection procedure as a "draught." Totally incorrect, of course, and it makes his schtick look rather absurd whenever he does it.)
Sort of an in-language version of hyperforeignism. Like a latté.
Sort of, but the thing is, the Brits use "draft" if they use said word to refer to conscription, same U.S. Americans do. "Draught" is correct as to beer, but to refer to the "NFL Draught" is absurd!
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PM
I always liked environment which is pronounced en-vior- ment or government which the middle n is silent, although in broadcasting school we are taught to say the n in the word even though common usage never does.
Yes you are right to me centre is centtray in my mind too and if you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
A lot of people, myself included, say the "n" in "environment" and "government" despite the common tendency to slur over it (which I often do, too, particularly when speaking more quickly). I guess it sounds right this way to me because saying environs as "enviors" would be all wrong.
I read "centre" as a one-syllable word, like the French pronunciation but with the English vowel sound.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
(I do know one American who prefers British spellings and expressions–the latter like referring to a baseball "fixture," for instance–but for some inexplicable reason insists on referring to pro sports' player selection procedure as a "draught." Totally incorrect, of course, and it makes his schtick look rather absurd whenever he does it.)
I know some British sports terminology is being absorbed here through osmosis because of the World Cup and soccer broadcasts. But the example you cite is a case of "trying too hard."
Quote from: Road Hog on August 28, 2015, 12:00:11 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:17:17 PM
(I do know one American who prefers British spellings and expressions–the latter like referring to a baseball "fixture," for instance–but for some inexplicable reason insists on referring to pro sports' player selection procedure as a "draught." Totally incorrect, of course, and it makes his schtick look rather absurd whenever he does it.)
I know some British sports terminology is being absorbed here through osmosis because of the World Cup and soccer broadcasts. But the example you cite is a case of "trying too hard."
I have ranted too long in other threads about US soccer fans parroting their British counterparts' terms when we have useful ones here already, but I agree.
I did find it charming, though, when an American woman near me at a bar once asked for a "draw" of beer ("draw," of course, being the uncommon verb of which our common "draught" is the past participle).
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
It's pronounced cen-TER, two syllables split between the n and the t.
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Non-rhotic, you mean.
Two observations:
- The tiny minority of non recent immigrant Americans who like soccer adopt British and other Euro linguistic forms do so for one reason. They hate American sports. The use of "fixture" and "nil" and "in to touch" and the idiot naming of teams "Real" REE-ol , meaning "under the patronage of the King of Spain (Real Madrid) or "United", meaning in that context "a team that both Anglicans and Catholics can support" or "Dynamo", which is from the Soviet practice of claiming teams represented different occupations, Dynamo meaning "power plant workers", have no application in Salt Lake City, Washington, or Houston. It is their way of being oh, so, above us common folk.
- Despite Anglo Canada's obvious closer relationship with French speakers, and despite the fact that French is the default foreign language in British schools, both tend to pronounce many French words in a flat manner. Both say "FILL-it" not "fil-LAY" for example.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 10:26:57 AM
Two observations:
- The tiny minority of non recent immigrant Americans who like soccer adopt British and other Euro linguistic forms do so for one reason. They hate American sports. The use of "fixture" and "nil" and "in to touch" and the idiot naming of teams "Real" REE-ol , meaning "under the patronage of the King of Spain (Real Madrid) or "United", meaning in that context "a team that both Anglicans and Catholics can support" or "Dynamo", which is from the Soviet practice of claiming teams represented different occupations, Dynamo meaning "power plant workers", have no application in Salt Lake City, Washington, or Houston. It is their way of being oh, so, above us common folk.
What, too timid to finish the thought and tell us they hate America in general?
Out of curiosity I asked my 11th grade English teacher what would happen if I used British spellings on essays and she said she would have to penalize me for it. I thought that was stupid and total bullshit because they're the same word, but whatever.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2015, 02:23:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 02:18:16 PM
First of all I am not attacking Canadian spelling. I am just saying that on the forum board it is showing that wavy line here. Not that I agree with it, in fact I think it should be told to those who program the speller to allow it considering that one whole nation spells things differently than the USA. That should count!
Your computer is doing the spell check based on its set language, not the forum. People in Canada, or the UK, or Australia, or New Zealand do not see a red, wavy line under "centre", but those in the US with computers set to en-US do.
Try working for a global company who creates all of its document templates in a country like Australia. :banghead: Somehow their settings tend to override my local language settings (probably due to some Microsoft glitch). Seeing words underlined that are actually spelled correctly drives poor spellers like me nuts. :spin:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM use "Litre" in their engine designations some time ago? I could've sworn I saw "3.8/4.3/4.9 Litre" on some of its cars.
Quote from: Henry on August 28, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM use "Litre" in their engine designations some time ago? I could've sworn I saw "3.8/4.3/4.9 Litre" on some of its cars.
Could be that at or before the time when liters replaced cubic inches as the primary measure of displacement that liters were indicated for the benefit of non-US customers.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 09:42:49 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Non-rhotic, you mean.
I mean that we don't use "er" as a filler - we use "uh".
It's the same schwa sound, but if you speak rhotic English, it might seem weird to see it spelled out as "er".
Quote from: Henry on August 28, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM use "Litre" in their engine designations some time ago? I could've sworn I saw "3.8/4.3/4.9 Litre" on some of its cars.
The Jeep Cherokee definitely said that.
Regarding soccer, I'm American and I enjoy soccer, but it's played on a field, they play games (not matches, which is tennis), and it's a schedule (pronounced with the "ch" as a "k"). I enjoy hockey more, though (and hockey is played only on ice, as opposed to "field hockey").
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 06:21:39 AMIt's pronounced cen-TER, two syllables split between the n and the t.
I know, but the cen-tray thing was annoying me. cen-TER (as well as adding the 'r', which isn't right) is putting the stress on the other syllable to what I'm used to: CEN-ta (tending to CEN-a as I live where we have t-glottalization)
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AMWe don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Indeed - I had a rant about how the US spelling makes it harder to realise that the 'r' is silent. It's sen.tə or sen.ʔə in UK English and sen.tɚ in US English - slightly different vowel sounds, but no 'r' there.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 09:42:49 AMNon-rhotic, you mean.
He probably did, but the only alternate US pronunciation is when pin and pen sound identical, and the vowel in the first syllable changes to 'i', so it seems to be both.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 01:03:04 AMI did find it charming, though, when an American woman near me at a bar once asked for a "draw" of beer ("draw," of course, being the uncommon verb of which our common "draught" is the past participle).
That is charming, and probably correct, though as a unit it's one pull of the pump, which is either half or a quarter of a (UK) pint on standard beer engines. Only works as a unit with ale drawn (a more common past tense of the verb 'draw' than 'draught') out of the cask by a pump.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:27:10 PMSort of, but the thing is, the Brits use "draft" if they use said word to refer to conscription, same U.S. Americans do.
Indeed, though the NFL draft is hardly conscription, merely picking players.
Quote"Draught" is correct as to beer, but to refer to the "NFL Draught" is absurd!
Are there air currents inside their HQ? or perhaps they are playing checkers with only one piece in between downs? Or perhaps it was a diagrammatic plan of the NFL?
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 12:47:00 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 09:42:49 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Non-rhotic, you mean.
I mean that we don't use "er" as a filler - we use "uh".
It's the same schwa sound, but if you speak rhotic English, it might seem weird to see it spelled out as "er".
Who uses "uh" for that sound? It's "err". The word is cen-TERR, not CENT-uh (which would be spelled [or spelt] "centah").
Quote from: english si on August 28, 2015, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 06:21:39 AMIt's pronounced cen-TER, two syllables split between the n and the t.
I know, but the cen-tray thing was annoying me. cen-TER (as well as adding the 'r', which isn't right) is putting the stress on the other syllable to what I'm used to: CEN-ta
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AMWe don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Indeed - I had a rant about how the US spelling makes it harder to realise that the 'r' is silent. It's sen.tə in UK English and sen.tɚ in US English - slightly different vowel sounds, but no 'r' there.
That really depends on the dialect and accent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/AmericanAccents). If you speak like a New Englander, then, indeed, the "r" is silent. If you speak Inland North (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Northern_American_English) (as I do), then the "r" is very pronounced. We've even gone through another vowel shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift).
To go a bit further, do these sound the same to you?
Mary, marry, merry
How about?
cot, caught
The first set sounds exactly alike to me. The second set is "caht" and "cawt".
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 12:47:00 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 09:42:49 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: english si on August 27, 2015, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 27, 2015, 01:19:04 PMif you look here spell check even says its wrong as well.
OMG spell check says it is wrong, therefore conclusive proof that Canadians can't spell!!!!1!!!
I get a wavy red line under 'center',* while 'centre' is fine. Different English is different.
*which just looks like you never learnt to spell or speak (I'd read it cent-er, with the stress on the second syllable like you were talking about pennies and then forgot what you were saying and went 'err'), nor make the clear links with central, centri-, etc. Where there is a pronounced 'r'. And the US way puts the silent vestigial French letter at the end, rather than hiding it in the middle (OK, there's some silent letters at the beginning of words, but mostly the silent ones are elsewhere - but never at the end), which just screams 'pronounce this'.
We don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Non-rhotic, you mean.
I mean that we don't use "er" as a filler - we use "uh".
It's the same schwa sound, but if you speak rhotic English, it might seem weird to see it spelled out as "er".
Who uses "uh" for that sound? It's "err". The word is cen-TERR, not CENT-uh (which would be spelled [or spelt] "centah").
Uh, me?
If you read dialogue from British authors, you see they tend to use "er" and "erm" where I'd write "uh" or "um". They're not pronouncing the "r" (or I should say, not rhoticizing the schwa), and the "r" is there for the sole purpose of indicating that it's a schwa, and not some other form of "e".
In rhotic English dialects, "er" invariably indicates that the "e" is to be rhoticized or "r-colored".
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 02:04:01 PMThe first set sounds exactly alike to me.
Even when some one who can actually speak says it? ;) Marry is very different to the other two, whereas Mary and merry are similar, but still different.
QuoteThe second set is "caht" and "cawt".
That's about right on caught, but cot for me uses /ɒ/ (open back rounded vowel) rather than /ɑ/ (general American, open back unrounded) or /a/ (US northern-cities vowel shift, open front unrounded vowel). If you said that I had to sleep on the cot, I'd probably say I'd rather not, as I don't want to be clawed in the night and Mr Whiskers probably won't like it!
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 02:08:07 PMUh, me?
Err, yes, you! ;)
I see what you are saying - you have to use 'uh' as we'd use 'er' (though they sound a bit different to me, even if non-rhotic me says them - hence why I'm adamant that centre/center has a silent 'r' in normal pronouciation. 'uh' or 'ah' give me those mid-central schwa-like vowels) because 'er' for you sounds completely different, rather than almost the same.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 02:04:01 PM
Quote from: english si on August 28, 2015, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 06:21:39 AMIt's pronounced cen-TER, two syllables split between the n and the t.
I know, but the cen-tray thing was annoying me. cen-TER (as well as adding the 'r', which isn't right) is putting the stress on the other syllable to what I'm used to: CEN-ta
Quote from: TXtoNJ on August 28, 2015, 08:11:24 AMWe don't say "er" in rhotic AE accents - we say "uh".
Indeed - I had a rant about how the US spelling makes it harder to realise that the 'r' is silent. It's sen.tə in UK English and sen.tɚ in US English - slightly different vowel sounds, but no 'r' there.
That really depends on the dialect and accent (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/AmericanAccents). If you speak like a New Englander, then, indeed, the "r" is silent. If you speak Inland North (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Northern_American_English) (as I do), then the "r" is very pronounced. We've even gone through another vowel shift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift).
To go a bit further, do these sound the same to you?
Mary, marry, merry
How about?
cot, caught
The first set sounds exactly alike to me. The second set is "caht" and "cawt".
I believe Eastern New England is the only place in the US where "for" ("far," as in "wait far it") and "four" ("fowa") don't rhyme.
These dichotomies are fascinating. "Pin" and "pen" are said differently here, but are spoken alike in some parts of the US.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 10:26:57 AM
- The tiny minority of non recent immigrant Americans who like soccer adopt British and other Euro linguistic forms do so for one reason. They hate American sports. The use of "fixture" and "nil" and "in to touch" and the idiot naming of teams "Real" REE-ol , meaning "under the patronage of the King of Spain (Real Madrid) or "United", meaning in that context "a team that both Anglicans and Catholics can support" or "Dynamo", which is from the Soviet practice of claiming teams represented different occupations, Dynamo meaning "power plant workers", have no application in Salt Lake City, Washington, or Houston. It is their way of being oh, so, above us common folk.
No, this is an example of adopting proper terminology for a sport. The same reason why a tennis score of 40-0 is "forty-love" and a tied game is "deuce." British fans of American football don't call PATs and field goals "tries" to make it sound like rugby; they don't refer to the scrimmage as a "scrum."
So, yes, a soccer game is properly called a "match" or "fixture"; the out-of-bounds area is "in touch" (or just "out of play"); the scoreline properly shows the home team first (the use of "home team last" is a sport-specific system derived from the batting order in baseball and exported from there in America to other team sports when they became popular). The use of names like "Dynamo" or "Real" or "United" has more to do with trying to connect with soccer fans than using "artificial" team names (like the "Dallas Burn," which sounded more like slang for an STD rather than the name of a sports team) while still having something easily trademarked.
All that is said as a fan of both soccer and American football, by the way.
Quote from: english si on August 28, 2015, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 02:04:01 PMThe first set sounds exactly alike to me.
Even when some one who can actually speak says it? ;) Marry is very different to the other two, whereas Mary and merry are similar, but still different.QuoteThe second set is "caht" and "cawt".
That's about right on caught, but cot for me uses /ɒ/ (open back rounded vowel) rather than /ɑ/ (general American, open back unrounded) or /a/ (US northern-cities vowel shift, open front unrounded vowel). If you said that I had to sleep on the cot, I'd probably say I'd rather not, as I don't want to be clawed in the night and Mr Whiskers probably won't like it!
LOL! Here, if you're speaking of Mr. Whiskers, that's a "kyat". But, yes, Mary, marry, and merry are spoken the same here, but cot and caught are not, nor are pen and pin. Yet for and four sound exactly a like.
And the name for a carbonated beverage is always "pop".
/That last one'll start a war.
Quote from: DaBigE on August 28, 2015, 11:47:39 AM
Try working for a global company who creates all of its document templates in a country like Australia. :banghead: Somehow their settings tend to override my local language settings (probably due to some Microsoft glitch). Seeing words underlined that are actually spelled correctly drives poor spellers like me nuts. :spin:
A Word document can set languages on the page down to the character (for example, so you can intersperse French and English text and have both spell-checked correctly). At least in Word 2015 on my Mac, the language in use is on the status bar at the bottom of the page and can be changed there.
Draw and drawer sound a like by some as I was pointed out when I first moved to Florida.
I used to say that the compartment that rolls out of a dresser or filing cabinet "draw" until I was corrected by my co-workers. I do not know if that is New Jersey thing or if it was a regional thing, or ethnic thing, but I had to change my way of speaking fast.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 28, 2015, 02:46:55 PM
Draw and drawer sound a like by some as I was pointed out when I first moved to Florida.
I used to say that the compartment that rolls out of a dresser or filing cabinet "draw" until I was corrected by my co-workers. I do not know if that is New Jersey thing or if it was a regional thing, or ethnic thing, but I had to change my way of speaking fast.
It's certainly a thing in Greater New York. I have even seen "draw" used in writing where "drawer" is meant.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 28, 2015, 11:53:24 AM
Quote from: Henry on August 28, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM use "Litre" in their engine designations some time ago? I could've sworn I saw "3.8/4.3/4.9 Litre" on some of its cars.
Could be that at or before the time when liters replaced cubic inches as the primary measure of displacement that liters were indicated for the benefit of non-US customers.
GM, and the other "American" car companies started using Metric for displacements following the first "great downsizing", which were the 75 to 79 models, which were markedly smaller, and had smaller engines. By using Metric, it made it hard for the casual customer to realize that so many litres was less CIs than the car they were trading in.
It also sounded suave and "European", which was a thing they were shooting for back then.
Always used "litre" and not "liter", AFAIK. But they also continued to (still do) account for power in "Horsepower" and not kilowatts and torque in pound-feet, not whatever torque is in Metric ( kg-cm ? ),
Quote from: lordsutch on August 28, 2015, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on August 28, 2015, 11:47:39 AM
Try working for a global company who creates all of its document templates in a country like Australia. :banghead: Somehow their settings tend to override my local language settings (probably due to some Microsoft glitch). Seeing words underlined that are actually spelled correctly drives poor spellers like me nuts. :spin:
A Word document can set languages on the page down to the character (for example, so you can intersperse French and English text and have both spell-checked correctly). At least in Word 2015 on my Mac, the language in use is on the status bar at the bottom of the page and can be changed there.
We're still using Office 2010, and as far as I've found, such a display in the status bar is not available. The problem is the templates are created in one country but used in another, so we don't necessarily want dual spellings being shown as correct. Even though my proofing languages are set to US English, somehow the template's created language overrides my settings. It's a glitch somewhere in the system.
Quote from: lordsutch on August 28, 2015, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 10:26:57 AM
- The tiny minority of non recent immigrant Americans who like soccer adopt British and other Euro linguistic forms do so for one reason. They hate American sports. The use of "fixture" and "nil" and "in to touch" and the idiot naming of teams "Real" REE-ol , meaning "under the patronage of the King of Spain (Real Madrid) or "United", meaning in that context "a team that both Anglicans and Catholics can support" or "Dynamo", which is from the Soviet practice of claiming teams represented different occupations, Dynamo meaning "power plant workers", have no application in Salt Lake City, Washington, or Houston. It is their way of being oh, so, above us common folk.
No, this is an example of adopting proper terminology for a sport. The same reason why a tennis score of 40-0 is "forty-love" and a tied game is "deuce." British fans of American football don't call PATs and field goals "tries" to make it sound like rugby; they don't refer to the scrimmage as a "scrum."
So, yes, a soccer game is properly called a "match" or "fixture"; the out-of-bounds area is "in touch" (or just "out of play"); the scoreline properly shows the home team first (the use of "home team last" is a sport-specific system derived from the batting order in baseball and exported from there in America to other team sports when they became popular). The use of names like "Dynamo" or "Real" or "United" has more to do with trying to connect with soccer fans than using "artificial" team names (like the "Dallas Burn," which sounded more like slang for an STD rather than the name of a sports team) while still having something easily trademarked.
All that is said as a fan of both soccer and American football, by the way.
You know you are responding to someone who said people who like drinking IPAs are faking it, right?
Quote from: lordsutch on August 28, 2015, 02:35:41 PM
The use of names like "Dynamo" or "Real" or "United" has more to do with trying to connect with soccer fans than using "artificial" team names ...
So "Real", a Spanish word meaning "Royal" and further meaning, as Spain is a monarchy, "under Royal patronage", and pronounced differently from the English word "real" is "natural" and not "artificial" despite the fact Utah has no king, the team has no relationship to the king of Spain, or any other place, and the rest of the team name is in English, Salt Lake City, rather than "Ciudad de lago salado".
Got it.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 03:58:46 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on August 28, 2015, 02:35:41 PM
The use of names like "Dynamo" or "Real" or "United" has more to do with trying to connect with soccer fans than using "artificial" team names ...
So "Real", a Spanish word meaning "Royal" and further meaning, as Spain is a monarchy, "under Royal patronage", and pronounced differently from the English word "real" is "natural" and not "artificial" despite the fact Utah has no king, the team has no relationship to the king of Spain, or any other place, and the rest of the team name is in English, Salt Lake City, rather than "Ciudad de lago salado".
Got it.
Well, Utah did have a king once - who happened to be the King of Spain.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 28, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
Out of curiosity I asked my 11th grade English teacher what would happen if I used British spellings on essays and she said she would have to penalize me for it. I thought that was stupid and total bullshit because they're the same word, but whatever.
I don't think it's bullshit. Your teacher is supposed to be teaching you how to spell correctly in the country you're in. I assume a British teacher would penalize one of their students for using American spellings.
Quote from: kkt on August 28, 2015, 04:29:48 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 28, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
Out of curiosity I asked my 11th grade English teacher what would happen if I used British spellings on essays and she said she would have to penalize me for it. I thought that was stupid and total bullshit because they're the same word, but whatever.
I don't think it's bullshit. Your teacher is supposed to be teaching you how to spell correctly in the country you're in. I assume a British teacher would penalize one of their students for using American spellings.
But I would say the case you suggested is bullshit too if it happens. I don't understand why there's a right or wrong way to spell these words; as I said, the spelling does not change the meaning. I didn't have any plans to actually follow through with using British spellings but I think my teacher was just being a ridiculous and stubborn moron.
It goes the other way, too. I listen to sports stations in the UK and they say "game" regularly. They don't call it a "match" as much as we think. They even use "on the field" occasionally. And the term "free agent" is starting to pop up in place of "free transfer."
Technology means we'll see this convergence continue. I'd say in another 200 to 300 years all the English-speaking populations will be nearly indistinguishable.
Quote from: Road Hog on August 28, 2015, 05:20:46 PM
It goes the other way, too. I listen to sports stations in the UK and they say "game" regularly. They don't call it a "match" as much as we think. They even use "on the field" occasionally. And the term "free agent" is starting to pop up in place of "free transfer."
Technology means we'll see this convergence continue. I'd say in another 200 to 300 years all the English-speaking populations will be nearly indistinguishable.
Weel see if dyat comes to pass. Coold bee weel all youse da sahme slyang. :bigass:
Quote from: Road Hog on August 28, 2015, 05:20:46 PM
Technology means we'll see this convergence continue. I'd say in another 200 to 300 years all the English-speaking populations will be nearly indistinguishable.
Even within American, localized accents seem to get less and less noticeable with time. Fewer people seem to speak with strong accents like they may have a few decades ago.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 05:38:34 PM
Weel see if dyat comes to pass. Coold bee weel all youse da sahme slyang.
I can't understand your babble, you tosser.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 28, 2015, 05:50:42 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 28, 2015, 05:20:46 PM
Technology means we'll see this convergence continue. I'd say in another 200 to 300 years all the English-speaking populations will be nearly indistinguishable.
Even within American, localized accents seem to get less and less noticeable with time. Fewer people seem to speak with strong accents like they may have a few decades ago.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 05:38:34 PM
Weel see if dyat comes to pass. Coold bee weel all youse da sahme slyang.
I can't understand your babble, you tosser.
Speak for yourself out west. We've been undergoing a vowel shift here, making our different than yours. See my comment you couldn't understand.
Quote from: Brandon on August 28, 2015, 05:58:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 28, 2015, 05:50:42 PM
I can't understand your babble, you tosser.
Speak for yourself out west. We've been undergoing a vowel shift here, making our different than yours. See my comment you couldn't understand.
That was called a "joke" and it obviously flatlined the second I hit post.
Quote from: kkt on August 28, 2015, 04:29:48 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 28, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
Out of curiosity I asked my 11th grade English teacher what would happen if I used British spellings on essays and she said she would have to penalize me for it. I thought that was stupid and total bullshit because they're the same word, but whatever.
I don't think it's bullshit. Your teacher is supposed to be teaching you how to spell correctly in the country you're in. I assume a British teacher would penalize one of their students for using American spellings.
My mother was an English teacher in Northern Virginia and she followed the principle of not marking British spellings wrong as long as the person was consistent in using them. I think she said one of her students was the child of someone at the British Embassy one year, so no doubt that influenced her thought process.
As far as the "-er" sound goes, I have to post my favorite license plate photo. Took this in the car park at Airbus in Filton a few years back. My British friends wondered what I was looking at and then all burst out laughing when they saw this.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FBristol%25202007%2FBristol2007365.jpg&hash=b95bfd96f1fe41aec9c4ca86e1322a40a21cecbd)
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 02:53:10 PM
and torque in pound-feet, not whatever torque is in Metric ( kg-cm ? ),
Newton-meters (N‧m), or maybe kilonewton-meters (kN‧m).
I consider myself multi-lingual, LOL.
Everybody in my family who is older than me was born and grew up in the NYC metro area. I was born and spent the first 10 years of my life in southwestern Michigan, the next 10 years in the Chicagoland area, and the last 25 years in eastern North Carolina.
My wife has often remarked that my "SheeeCAHgo" accent really comes out when I am pissed about something, yet most of the time I sound like I have lived down south most of my life. Yet, when I am speaking with one of my older family members then the NY (specifically Long Island) accent comes to the fore after only about 5 minutes or so.
My wife was born here, but grew up in Lewiston Idaho. She really doesn't have an accent where one can pinpoint where she is from. She does have a few words that I jokingly pick on her about, like she uses a ruler to may-sure something whereas I meh-sure it.
Hey, Brandon, I'll see your pop with a soda, and I'll raise ya a glass of MELK, to boot, LOL.
Now for the actual topic, I never had a problem with the alternative British spellings for words. I spent alot of time during my formative years reading about World War I and World War II and had gotten quite used to seeing our -er words ending in -re (although I always found it odd that they didn't conform to that format for all words that ended that way, like the word minister is spelled the same way on both sides of the pond).
Quote from: slorydn1 on August 29, 2015, 05:26:16 PM(although I always found it odd that they didn't conform to that format for all words that ended that way, like the word minister is spelled the same way on both sides of the pond).
Minister, which has the right entomology for an -re ending (and did have one way back when) seems to have been Latinised (the Latin word that the French took it off was 'minister'), whereas centre in Latin is centrum, so that wouldn't give an -er ending.
Quote from: english si on August 28, 2015, 01:53:01 PM
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Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:27:10 PMSort of, but the thing is, the Brits use "draft" if they use said word to refer to conscription, same U.S. Americans do.
Indeed, though the NFL draft is hardly conscription, merely picking players.
....
Of course, although players who wind up with the Redskins might argue otherwise! In this case I deliberately used "conscription" because I intended a broader meaning than the player-selection process–I meant to include things like a military draft as well, as that process is not a "draught" either!
Enjoy your LabOUR Day holiday everyone!
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 01:49:06 PMThe one that annoys me is when media outlets change the spelling of proper nouns. The Washington Post, for example, constantly refers to the British "Labor Party." There's no such thing–"Labour" is a proper noun. It's incorrect to change the weird spelling of someone's name–for example, NBA player Mr. Wade spells his name "Dwyane" (yes, the "y" goes before the "a") but the media never change it to the more conventional "Duane." Nor should they. The same applies to things like "Labour Party" or, to use an example from the UK media, New York's "World Trade Centre" is incorrect.
I have the same reaction because I try to follow a policy of using the spellings and terminology that are appropriate in the native setting of the thing under discussion. Hence, I do not speak of "British freeways" or "American motorways," I always write
Labour in relation to the party co-founded by the Webbs, I speak of a hazardous-materials
endorsement on a truck driver's
license and an
endorsement on the
licence of a car driver who has been convicted of a traffic
offence (
endorsement in driver licensing contexts is nearly antonymous between the US and Britain), etc. But these subtleties are lost on print outlets who aim for a lowest-common-denominator audience (sixth-grade reading level in the US) and confect their stylebooks accordingly.
U.S. Southern neo-secessionist groups advocate the restoration of British spelling. I also have seen a TV commercial with an actress with an obvious Southern accent who says, "Dentures are different to real teeth." Our British contributor used the same construction above. That sounds, well, foreign to me, as where I live things are different from each other, not to each other. And, I definitely stress the "r" in center.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 27, 2015, 08:27:10 PMSort of, but the thing is, the Brits use "draft" if they use said word to refer to conscription, same U.S. Americans do. "Draught" is correct as to beer, but to refer to the "NFL Draught" is absurd!
Draft in the sense of induction into military service is not the word I typically see first reached for in Britain, though--usually it's
call-up colloquially and
conscription formally.
British English has always seemed to me somewhat more dependent than American English on certain set phrases with implicit meanings. For example,
fair enough has an implicit undertone of "Don't agree with you, but don't really want to get into it with you," while
X took tea with Y tends to imply "X and Y are traditional enemies and had a peace summit." I think this has a knock-on effect on word choice.
Quote from: SP Cook on August 28, 2015, 02:53:10 PMAlways used "litre" and not "liter", AFAIK. But they also continued to (still do) account for power in "Horsepower" and not kilowatts and torque in pound-feet, not whatever torque is in Metric ( kg-cm ? ).
I tend not to spell out the word
liter myself; instead, I report displacement using the SI unit abbreviation (L) with the appropriate number of significant digits (e.g. no-one ever says the Lexus LS400 has a "4 L V8 engine"--it's always "4.0 L V8"). It gnashes my gears to see the numerical quantity and the unit written together without any separation, but a hyphen looks like being hypercorrect while text entry facilities (such as the post dialogs on this forum) often lack the ability to insert nonbreaking spaces.
In regard to output figures, in US contexts power is always hp and torque is always either ft-lb or lb-ft (there are some purists who insist one ordering of lb and ft is appropriate for torque output of an automobile engine, and the other is appropriate for fasteners). Internationally, power is either W or PS (
Pferdestärke = metric horsepower) and torque is invariably N-m (often written, as Vtk does above, with the multiplication dot substituted for the hyphen).
Quote from: kkt on August 28, 2015, 04:29:48 PMI don't think it's bullshit. Your teacher is supposed to be teaching you how to spell correctly in the country you're in. I assume a British teacher would penalize one of their students for using American spellings.
I think context matters. In a high school setting it often looks pretentious to use the other language area's spelling conventions without any matching alterations in diction (e.g. American words and phrases with British spellings), and this is something a high school teacher could reasonably be expected to convey as part of instruction in good writing style. But at the graduate level it jars less to use American spellings in a doctoral dissertation about British motorways since that is something that could notionally be published in the US rather than the UK.
The law school instructor 1995hoo cited--the one greatly concerned about
judgment versus
judgement--sounds like the classic example of a professor with an unreasonable fixation on a fine point who cannot be told boo because he has tenure.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on September 07, 2015, 12:27:51 PMI also have seen a TV commercial with an actress with an obvious Southern accent who says, "Dentures are different to real teeth." Our British contributor used the same construction above. That sounds, well, foreign to me, as where I live things are different from each other, not to each other.
I think all of the usages of
different + preposition are awkward to some degree. Different from rankles me less than different than and different to, but I still try to shift to active voice (generally using the verb differ) to avoid this sort of construction.