I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking. I do not know if it has to do with safety more now being the sex offenders registry keeps on growing, or if its an issue with busing as some school districts have a two mile distance minimum for bus service to the kids, or something else. Nonetheless, the mothers coming to school does clog area roadways and usually right when rush hour starts occurring. To make matters worse, in Orange County there is no consistency as the first school bus out on the road is before 6 AM and the last one is out after 5 PM. Therefore each different schools have different start times which results naturally in different end times, thus spreading out the school hours across the morning and afternoons.
Should the times be made more standard? Do you think that they sometimes do interfere with normal driving schedules? Most of all do you think that no school buses should be out on the road during peak times of regular traffic?
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking.
Helicopter parenting. These twits think that something bad might happen to little Johnny or little Suzie ont he way to/from school, so they freak out and drive them everywhere.
Somehow, I made it through the much more dangerous 1980s bicycling 1-1/2 miles each way to/from junior high school with no parent watching over me 100% of the time.
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking.
Helicopter parenting. These twits think that something bad might happen to little Johnny or little Suzie ont he way to/from school, so they freak out and drive them everywhere.
Somehow, I made it through the much more dangerous 1980s bicycling 1-1/2 miles each way to/from junior high school with no parent watching over me 100% of the time.
Kids and parents also lead much more scheduled, organized lives than you did in the 1980s. There are more dual-income families now, which means more kids that get shuttled off to some other place or activity until parents get home, which in this part of the country is after dark for a large part of the school year.
I agree that there is a culture of protectionisn among many parents these days, but it's become a very popular easy answer for too many wrongs.
There's an idea about, for example, that parents don't let kids traipse recreationally about the neighborhoods anymore for fear the child might be snatched. The parents I know say kids consider it a burden and a chore to be pulled away from their screen time despite the parents' best efforts to get them out.
A parent in Montgomery County, Maryland got cited by the child protective services for the crime of letting her children walk to a park together. Some nosy neighbor phoned them in.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 18, 2015, 06:47:33 PM
A parent in Montgomery County, Maryland got cited by the child protective services for the crime of letting her children walk to a park together. Some nosy neighbor phoned them in.
And what are we to conclude from the actions of this paranoid caller?
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 18, 2015, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 18, 2015, 06:47:33 PM
A parent in Montgomery County, Maryland got cited by the child protective services for the crime of letting her children walk to a park together. Some nosy neighbor phoned them in.
And what are we to conclude from the actions of this paranoid caller?
A dumb 4th grader?
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking. I do not know if it has to do with safety more now being the sex offenders registry keeps on growing, or if its an issue with busing as some school districts have a two mile distance minimum for bus service to the kids, or something else. Nonetheless, the mothers coming to school does clog area roadways and usually right when rush hour starts occurring. To make matters worse, in Orange County there is no consistency as the first school bus out on the road is before 6 AM and the last one is out after 5 PM. Therefore each different schools have different start times which results naturally in different end times, thus spreading out the school hours across the morning and afternoons.
Should the times be made more standard? Do you think that they sometimes do interfere with normal driving schedules? Most of all do you think that no school buses should be out on the road during peak times of regular traffic?
It is a bit of the need to share buses as well... they need the same bus picking up often 3 sets of kids a day. I'd personally like to see bus routes changed to have them get all stops off of major roads and get them turning into communities so not so many vehicles get stuck behind them.
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking.
Helicopter parenting. These twits think that something bad might happen to little Johnny or little Suzie ont he way to/from school, so they freak out and drive them everywhere.
Somehow, I made it through the much more dangerous 1980s bicycling 1-1/2 miles each way to/from junior high school with no parent watching over me 100% of the time.
Kids are also much lazier these days. I recall my high school's population growing during my time there, but the size of the parking lot(s) seemed to have to grow even faster.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking. I do not know if it has to do with safety more now being the sex offenders registry keeps on growing, or if its an issue with busing as some school districts have a two mile distance minimum for bus service to the kids, or something else. Nonetheless, the mothers coming to school does clog area roadways and usually right when rush hour starts occurring. To make matters worse, in Orange County there is no consistency as the first school bus out on the road is before 6 AM and the last one is out after 5 PM. Therefore each different schools have different start times which results naturally in different end times, thus spreading out the school hours across the morning and afternoons.
Should the times be made more standard? Do you think that they sometimes do interfere with normal driving schedules? Most of all do you think that no school buses should be out on the road during peak times of regular traffic?
If a school day is 7 hours long, find a period where, for an hour before school and an hour after school you can have kids going to/from school which doesn't also bump into a rush hour. It would have to be so far removed from the normal work day (either 6am - 1pm, or 12noon to 7pm, that it would make it incredible inconvenient for both working parents and the kids.
Also, you would not want consistent hours across the board. Just like businesses where not everyone works 9 - 5, every school starting at the same time would put a lot more traffic on the road at one time, rather than spreading it out. And, if someone has at least 2 children in 2 schools, they would need to catch 2 school buses at about the same time, meaning there'll be MORE buses stopping on the roads during the same time period. Or, parents will have to drop one off at one school, then another off at another school (and, of course, there could be a 3rd child at a different school).
In some areas though, the issue of "walking or taking the bus" isn't quite black and white. I lived 5 miles from my elementary and middle school so biking was far out of the question. My mom took me school in the morning because in order to catch the bus, I'd have to be up at around 6 am. I did take the bus home.
Of course, I grew up in the middle of nowhere so traffic was never an issue.
I'd got dropped off a block away so my dad wouldn't have to deal with stupid parents and a crowded parking lot for both elementary and high school, then I walked home afterwards. Usually took me about 15 minutes for elementary and 40 mins for high school.
I think schools should be scheduled to start and end without causing conflicts to funeral processions.
Kids used to do a lot of things on their own that would be considered unthinkable now.
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2015, 08:05:41 PM
Kids used to do a lot of things on their own that would be considered unthinkable now.
Heh. I wonder how much shit would hit the fan if kids today tried to play some of the games we used to play, the most notable (in terms of teachers today likely going ballistic) being Smear the Queer.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2015, 10:21:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2015, 08:05:41 PM
Kids used to do a lot of things on their own that would be considered unthinkable now.
Heh. I wonder how much shit would hit the fan if kids today tried to play some of the games we used to play, the most notable (in terms of teachers today likely going ballistic) being Smear the Queer.
That would cause trouble on many levels.. The sensitivity police would be there in an instant
My Dad used to take his bike out a lot when he was little and ride down the gully to Irondequoit Bay (off road). Grandma would have had a heart attack had she known where he was going.
School class times should reflect when kids learn best: early start/finish for elementary, later start/finish for high school. Unfortunately, in Seattle school buses make three runs morning and three runs afternoon, so the middle one is at a reasonable hour (start 8:30 AM) but the first one is too early (start as early as 7:30) and the last one is too late (start as late as 10:00). Also, some high schoolers have after school jobs or take their sports very seriously and would resent shorter afternoons, so the school district has high schoolers start first, ignoring all research about teen sleep patterns.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2015, 10:21:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2015, 08:05:41 PM
Kids used to do a lot of things on their own that would be considered unthinkable now.
Heh. I wonder how much shit would hit the fan if kids today tried to play some of the games we used to play, the most notable (in terms of teachers today likely going ballistic) being Smear the Queer.
We played that game under that name as recently as the late 90s/early 00s in FCPS schools, for what it's worth.
My junior high and high school bus stop was about 1/2 mile from my house. Walked out of my neighborhood and down the left shoulder of this road ( https://goo.gl/maps/qqGarbNUxnu ) for a little over 1/10th of a mile, to beyond that second telephone pole. See that shoulder, maybe about 3' wide? Yeah, that didn't exist when I was going to school. The lanes were marked wider, and the shoulder was only a foot or so wide at the time. When I got to my bus stop, which was on the other side of the road, I crossed the road to the side street where we all stood (there was no room on the side where I walked because of trees or whatever). Then the bus would come, and we would re-cross the road again.
Today, anyone doing that would be crazy. Yet, I, my parents, or anyone else never gave it a second thought back in the 80's and early 90's.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 21, 2015, 06:30:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2015, 10:21:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2015, 08:05:41 PM
Kids used to do a lot of things on their own that would be considered unthinkable now.
Heh. I wonder how much shit would hit the fan if kids today tried to play some of the games we used to play, the most notable (in terms of teachers today likely going ballistic) being Smear the Queer.
We played that game under that name as recently as the late 90s/early 00s in FCPS schools, for what it's worth.
When I was young enough to play the game, the notion of "queer" referring to homosexuals never occurred to me (I'm not sure I would have known what homosexuals were when I was that young anyway). Evidently that view wasn't universal: My brother, who is two years younger than I am, said his classmates didn't say "Smear the Queer" and instead called it "Snag the F
ag." This was all back in the early 1980s.
[/quote]I don't see the point in modifying school schedules for traffic relief so much as closing the campus to cars so parents can't drive their kids to school. Sorry, snowflake, learn to bike or take the bus.
[/quote]
I don't see that happening any time soon with a kidnapper/child molester behind every bush, tree and telephone pole.
Quote from: GaryV on September 20, 2015, 01:18:30 PM
I think schools should be scheduled to start and end without causing conflicts to funeral processions.
:-D
Just extend the school day to start well before and end well after the rush hours. I don't know a lot of parents who'd complain about the extra hours of peaceful time. Kids need a longer school day anyway.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 23, 2015, 06:06:49 PM
Just extend the school day to start well before and end well after the rush hours. I don't know a lot of parents who'd complain about the extra hours of peaceful time. Kids need a longer school day anyway.
It's a problem for two reasons:
1. Elementary (younger kids) REALLY hate having to be up at times like 5 AM, so that's why most elementary schools start smack dab during rush hour at 8 AM.
2. Children must go to school at least seven hours per day, but not too long that it becomes hard. They end it at rush hour times so that they don't explode from TMI syndrome.
One would hope that the starting hours of school would be set to be allow children to learn. Having to add 10 minutes to your commute seems like a small price to pay to better educate our future generations.
And, of course, if our planning allowed for more compact neighborhoods where children could safely walk, bike, or take public transit to school, there would be no need to accommodate legions of parents driving their kids to school.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 23, 2015, 06:48:20 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on September 23, 2015, 06:06:49 PM
Just extend the school day to start well before and end well after the rush hours. I don't know a lot of parents who'd complain about the extra hours of peaceful time. Kids need a longer school day anyway.
It's a problem for two reasons:
1. Elementary (younger kids) REALLY hate having to be up at times like 5 AM, so that's why most elementary schools start smack dab during rush hour at 8 AM.
2. Children must go to school at least seven hours per day, but not too long that it becomes hard. They end it at rush hour times so that they don't explode from TMI syndrome.
It was a joke, centered on the fact that parents get their life back when kids go to school.
As mentioned upthread, the school day should be arranged primarily around what works best for learning. Many folks argue this is indeed a longer school day, but I am not an expert on the subject.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2015, 05:51:54 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
I noticed that in Florida we have many parents picking up their kids now rather than them walking or biking. I do not know if it has to do with safety more now being the sex offenders registry keeps on growing, or if its an issue with busing as some school districts have a two mile distance minimum for bus service to the kids, or something else. Nonetheless, the mothers coming to school does clog area roadways and usually right when rush hour starts occurring. To make matters worse, in Orange County there is no consistency as the first school bus out on the road is before 6 AM and the last one is out after 5 PM. Therefore each different schools have different start times which results naturally in different end times, thus spreading out the school hours across the morning and afternoons.
Should the times be made more standard? Do you think that they sometimes do interfere with normal driving schedules? Most of all do you think that no school buses should be out on the road during peak times of regular traffic?
If a school day is 7 hours long, find a period where, for an hour before school and an hour after school you can have kids going to/from school which doesn't also bump into a rush hour. It would have to be so far removed from the normal work day (either 6am - 1pm, or 12noon to 7pm, that it would make it incredible inconvenient for both working parents and the kids.
Also, you would not want consistent hours across the board. Just like businesses where not everyone works 9 - 5, every school starting at the same time would put a lot more traffic on the road at one time, rather than spreading it out. And, if someone has at least 2 children in 2 schools, they would need to catch 2 school buses at about the same time, meaning there'll be MORE buses stopping on the roads during the same time period. Or, parents will have to drop one off at one school, then another off at another school (and, of course, there could be a 3rd child at a different school).
Sorry to bring the thread back around to the actual topic (sorry if that had already been done, tl/dr). But this is perhaps the best post I've ever read by @jeffandnicole. Rearranging school hours would make things worse, not better on many levels. And I have actually spent a small amount of time helping to shuttle children to school in a town that has morning and evening schedules. Some kids went to school from about 7:00 to 12:00 or so, while others went from about 2:00 to 7:00 or so. The exact times varied slightly by school, and there were a few cases of siblings not having the same schedule. Believe me, it was practically a full-time job just dropping off and picking up kids (there were about fifteen out twenty kids total).
FWIW, I rode my bike to school from the first grade on, come rain or snow (born in 1981). From fourth grade through high school, I lived in a town that did not offer school bus service to students living in town, just those living out in the country. Kids were either dropped off or made their own way to school. My uncle (born in the 40s) grew up on the south side of Chicago, and he took public transportation to school starting in the first grade. He had to know which trolley lines to take to school, as well as s backup plan on CTA if the trolleys weren't running--in the first grade. But none of this has to do with bus schedules. School operates at times that are convenient to the most people, and bus schedules follow that; changing times would necessarily mean less convenience for most people.
Quote from: kkt on September 21, 2015, 06:15:17 PM
School class times should reflect when kids learn best: early start/finish for elementary, later start/finish for high school. Unfortunately, in Seattle school buses make three runs morning and three runs afternoon, so the middle one is at a reasonable hour (start 8:30 AM) but the first one is too early (start as early as 7:30) and the last one is too late (start as late as 10:00). Also, some high schoolers have after school jobs or take their sports very seriously and would resent shorter afternoons, so the school district has high schoolers start first, ignoring all research about teen sleep patterns.
Exactly what I was going to post. There's been tons of studies saying that teenagers should start later in the day because of the way their bodies change at that age but it's totally ignored because school administrations are too inflexible.
As for censored's weird side tangent...no, there are entirely justified reasons why someone may choose to pick up their children from school. In my case, I lived six miles from my school, and part of that was a state highway with no shoulders and a 65 mile per hour limit, so even if the distance was acceptable (it's not) biking or walking would be dangerous. So I took the bus. I was at the end of the bus route, which, because the bus stopped at every school-age child's house on every back road along that six miles, took an hour to complete. This was fine until teachers decided they wanted to start intruding on my free time, and I was able to make a case to my mom that I needed that hour back for homework.
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2015, 12:45:28 PM
My Dad used to take his bike out a lot when he was little and ride down the gully to Irondequoit Bay (off road). Grandma would have had a heart attack had she known where he was going.
I'll do you one better. My parents used to ride down I-635 in Kansas before it was completed.
I agree that school should start earlier for elementary and later for secondary students.
Efficient school bus operations in urbanized areas attempt to have two, three or four tiers for schools. Each tier needs to be staggered by 25-45 minutes in order to provide the bus time to complete routes. For safety and political reasons, elementary students can't be picked up in darkness, so the earliest acceptable pickup is about 7 am.
Assuming the buses start picking up at 7 am, the first tier would be dropped off between 7:25 and 7:40, the second tier between 7:50 and 8:20, and the third tier between 8:15 and 9:00. Assuming that school buses arrive 10 to 15 minutes before the first bell, then school starts would be 7:35-7:55 for the first tier, 8:00-8:35 for the second tier, and 8:25-9:15 for the third tier.
In rural areas, bus route times are likely require 45-60 minutes between consecutive dropoffs. Starting at 7 am, dropoffs would be 7:45-8:00 for the first tier, and 8:30-9:00 for the second tier, corresponding to school start times of 7:55-8:15 and 8:40-9:15.
Assuming that long routes were paired with short routes, and with no school starting earlier than 7:45 out of concern for walking students nor later than 9:00 in order to have a reasonable end time, this means that in districts with three start times, school tiers would be at about 7:45, 8:20, and 9:00; and in districts with two start times school tiers would be at about 8:00 and 9:00.
Seattle Schools is a 3-tier district and discussing bell times now. However, each tier is more like 55 minutes to an hour, so we really have one tier that's a reasonable start time and two tiers that are unreasonably early or late that students get stuck with.
By the way, in Seattle trying to avoid any dark travel would mean no travel before 9:00 AM or after 3:30 PM, meaning classes had to be between 9:45 and 2:45. Not enough hours in the day.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2015, 04:37:52 PM
I'll do you one better. My parents used to ride down I-635 in Kansas before it was completed.
One of my uncles did that with I-490. I'm pretty sure (my other) Grandma knew about that, though.