Following up on a recent locked thread here on the name change of Alaska's Mt. McKinley to its original name Denali -- here's a conservative writer's compromise suggestion, to keep the new (old) name for the mountain, but rename the surrounding national park for President McKinley.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/424286/what-name-william-mckinley
(Includes some swipes at Pres. Obama and other Democrats -- hey, that's par for the course at National Review! -- but mostly praise for Pres. McKinley.)
The park was originally named "Mount McKinley National Park", so this would mostly restore the park's original name.
I'll use this thread to post something I wanted to say in the 'Goodbye Mount McKinley, Hello Mount Denali' thread, but kept forgetting and then it got locked before I could write.
I'm in favor of use local names were possible, if it something got a native name, use it. Like they did when the Great Trigonometrical Survey in India. Thomas Montgomerie climbed to Mount Haramukh, and from there spotted and numbered several peaks on the Karakoram. Since they wanted to keep local names, these peaks got accordingly renamed, except for one. That peak received its first name then, and has since been known as K2.
In my opinion, Pres. McKinley's name should only be associated with the mountain/area in history books and a few historic plaques explaining the naming controversy.
There are some really lame names out there too.
The Grand Canyon ?
Sheesh, put some thought into it people !!
And don't get me started on the Rocky Mountains . . . .
Quote from: Bruce on September 19, 2015, 07:01:44 PM
In my opinion, Pres. McKinley's name should only be associated with the mountain/area in history books and a few historic plaques explaining the naming controversy.
Look at Cape Kennedy for example. The Space Center is still named for our 35th president despite the name of the piece of land that was retracted back to its original name after naming controversy there.
I am sure something can be named to keep McKinley honor alive as part of that area.
BTW, lets keep this from becoming another political debate like the last thread related to this. So far NE 2 is sticking his foot in his mouth as always, which is already a start to this becoming another Yellow Brick Road themed thread.
Rename Cuyahoga Valley National Park after President McKinley
Bring back the $500 bill, with Pres. McKinley's face on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_denominations_of_United_States_currency#High_denomination_United_States_banknotes) (but with a more creative reverse, please).
I think the obstacle here is that McKinley had no particular association with that particular park, mountain or region, unless there's something I missed in my cursory read of the article. While McKinley indeed may be deserving of a namesake in the National Parks system, surely a spot like Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural is the better candidate? After all, Teddy already has other park sites named for him.
iPhone
Quote from: Jardine on September 19, 2015, 07:08:22 PM
And don't get me started on the Rocky Mountains . . . .
That John Denver is full of shit, man.
Sorry, but the subject has become purely political, which was why the original thread was locked
Reopening. Please keep the discussion focused on the concept brought up by the OP - whether to rename the national park, however an attempt to make this political will result it in being locked again.
I see no reason to name the park after President McKinley. It and the mountain should share the same name, IMHO. In fact, I'd like to get away from naming things after politicians.
QuoteI'd like to get away from naming things after politicians.
Agreed.
I'd like to get away from naming things after politicians for the sake of naming them after politicians. If McKinley had been from Alaska or had somehow been connected to it, it would make sense.
I don't mind if it's part of a naming theme–for example, a series of streets all named after presidents, or naming schools after former governors of the state where the schools are located, etc. Of course, off the top of my head I can't think of anyplace that uses either of those particular themes!
(I suppose you theoretically still run into issues with bad ones, like if Illinois were naming a string of streets after governors and then hit Blagojevich's spot in the order.)
When are we going to finally name two non-adjacent peaks for Grover Cleveland?
Quote from: empirestate on September 19, 2015, 08:50:33 PM
I think the obstacle here is that McKinley had no particular association with that particular park, mountain or region, unless there's something I missed in my cursory read of the article. While McKinley indeed may be deserving of a namesake in the National Parks system, surely a spot like Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural is the better candidate? After all, Teddy already has other park sites named for him.
Using that logic, why are there so darn many things named after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in places where he never set foot or had any association? Even Maysville, Ky. has a MLK street and I don't know that he ever visited Maysville.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 20, 2015, 06:54:25 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 19, 2015, 08:50:33 PM
I think the obstacle here is that McKinley had no particular association with that particular park, mountain or region, unless there's something I missed in my cursory read of the article. While McKinley indeed may be deserving of a namesake in the National Parks system, surely a spot like Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural is the better candidate? After all, Teddy already has other park sites named for him.
Using that logic, why are there so darn many things named after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in places where he never set foot or had any association? Even Maysville, Ky. has a MLK street and I don't know that he ever visited Maysville.
There's a difference between naming a road and a feature of the natural landscape.
In this case, we're talking about naming a park.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 20, 2015, 06:54:25 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 19, 2015, 08:50:33 PM
I think the obstacle here is that McKinley had no particular association with that particular park, mountain or region, unless there's something I missed in my cursory read of the article. While McKinley indeed may be deserving of a namesake in the National Parks system, surely a spot like Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural is the better candidate? After all, Teddy already has other park sites named for him.
Using that logic, why are there so darn many things named after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in places where he never set foot or had any association? Even Maysville, Ky. has a MLK street and I don't know that he ever visited Maysville.
Because Dr. King was the symbol for a national movement, and the changes that he advocated for have had a profound lasting effect. I doubt the McKinley Tariff or the Spanish-American War had too much of an impact on the history or culture of Alaska.
Quote from: Thing 342 on September 20, 2015, 10:57:04 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 20, 2015, 06:54:25 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 19, 2015, 08:50:33 PM
I think the obstacle here is that McKinley had no particular association with that particular park, mountain or region, unless there's something I missed in my cursory read of the article. While McKinley indeed may be deserving of a namesake in the National Parks system, surely a spot like Theodore Roosevelt Inaugural is the better candidate? After all, Teddy already has other park sites named for him.
Using that logic, why are there so darn many things named after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in places where he never set foot or had any association? Even Maysville, Ky. has a MLK street and I don't know that he ever visited Maysville.
Because Dr. King was the symbol for a national movement, and the changes that he advocated for have had a profound lasting effect. I doubt the McKinley Tariff or the Spanish-American War had too much of an impact on the history or culture of Alaska.
That pretty much says it, I think. Few would doubt that MLK had a greater influence over more people than McKinley did; now, whether the sheer number of things named for King is indeed appropriate in scale to his influence, we must judge for ourselves I suppose.
The only other point I'd make is that there's more to influence than mere physical presence. McKinley may well have had an association with or influence on the mountain in Alaska that never involved him having to visit it personally, and if so, that might be a valid reason to name it after him. But, again, unless I'm forgetting something, I haven't been made aware of any such association. (And you could also argue whether the fact that he was physically present in Buffalo when he was assassinated gives him any special association with that place. But since there is, in fact, a national site commemorating the occasion, it certainly springs to mind as something at least as worthy of being named for him as the Alaskan peak.)
Then why is both JFK and his brother named after things everywhere? I can the see the Kennedy Space Center named after the former, because he was the one that got the space program off the ground, but CR 501 in Hudson County, NJ, the NYC main international airport is named after him, and then recently the Triborough Bridge named after Bobby. What did the Kennedy Brothers do for NJ and NY?
Sure Jack was a president of our nation, but so was Nixon and so was Carter. Then Bobby was not even a president, just a brother of one and if he is famous its for the same reason that the Vanderbilt's were: they had money! People look at anyone with lots of money, Hollywood stars, the Bush's, the Kardasian's, the Jackson's and much more as royalty. If one gets caught breaking the law, they usually get a free pass from going to jail, hence Michael Jackson, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and soon his wife with this latest scandal.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 27, 2015, 08:55:03 PM
Then why is both JFK and his brother named after things everywhere? I can the see the Kennedy Space Center named after the former, because he was the one that got the space program off the ground, but CR 501 in Hudson County, NJ, the NYC main international airport is named after him, and then recently the Triborough Bridge named after Bobby. What did the Kennedy Brothers do for NJ and NY?
Sure Jack was a president of our nation, but so was Nixon and so was Carter. Then Bobby was not even a president, just a brother of one and if he is famous its for the same reason that the Vanderbilt's were: they had money! People look at anyone with lots of money, Hollywood stars, the Bush's, the Kardasian's, the Jackson's and much more as royalty. If one gets caught breaking the law, they usually get a free pass from going to jail, hence Michael Jackson, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and soon his wife with this latest scandal.
What I think you're getting at is the difference between somebody having a lot of influence vs. being deserving of that degree of influence. Now as for RFK and the Triborough Bridge, I agree that I don't see how Bobby Kennedy had enough impact on NYC specifically that he should get this bridge named after him, particularly so long after his assassination.
But in the case of JFK and the airport, I don't think that any reasonable observer would conclude that John F. Kennedy and William McKinley had comparable amounts of influence, such that they both equally deserve the flagship international airport of our country (at the time, if not still today) and the continent's highest peak, respectively. JFK was certainly a more important figure in his time than was McKinley, and his importance was of such national scale that it befits being applied to local landmarks all over the country. With McKinley, that's harder to see.
Now, whether the
reason's for JFK's importance are valid, and whether they make him worthy of being a namesake, are questions that, as I've said, we must answer for ourselves.
JFK probably was a good man, no doubt as his life span was before mine, so I was not around to witness his term in office. However, I am just asking why some people get named for things with absolutely no influence on us. Correct we should feel free to choose whomever we pick, and that is not what I am mad about nor I am not even mad at the mountain, the bridge, the airport, or whatever comes along with it.
Just curious as I am sure HB was wondering the same thing. I have no quarrels with MLK, but you do have to admit his name is used quite too frequently, but that is another story and it is what it is. I do think its odd that the Triborough was named the way it was, considering that the Kennedy's were big in Massachusetts and not in New York. Like if MA 128 was named after RFK and the name Yankee Division was dumped for it, it would not seem odd to me. On the same note if the NJ Turnpike got renamed after Lawton Chiles, a former FL Governor who died during his last month in office, I would think that is very strange.
Bobby Kennedy was a Senator from New York at the time of his assassination, and prior to that was a prosecutor in District Court in Brooklyn. That being said, it is a bit odd that the Triborough Bridge was named for him 40 years after his assassination.
Quote from: davewiecking on September 28, 2015, 12:32:35 AM
Bobby Kennedy was a Senator from New York at the time of his assassination, and prior to that was a prosecutor in District Court in Brooklyn. That being said, it is a bit odd that the Triborough Bridge was named for him 40 years after his assassination.
Yes, I guess that is it as nowadays nobody is aware that RFK was a Senator back in the 60's or a prosecutor and the 40 years delay makes it seem all new.
I still say that that the Battery Tunnel should have been named in honor over the victims of 9/11 over Hugh Carey. Not that I have anything against the man either as I was not fully aware of his tenor as NY Governor, but I think the victims of that fateful day need more honor than any politician of any time. There are plenty of bridges in NYS that could have been named after Carey, like the Rip Van Winkle Bridge named after a fictional character in a story book.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2015, 12:23:08 AM
JFK probably was a good man, no doubt as his life span was before mine, so I was not around to witness his term in office. However, I am just asking why some people get named for things with absolutely no influence on us.
Understood. My point, simply, is that I think few people would argue that JFK (or MLK) was such a person. He had undeniable influence over–"importance to" is probably a better phrase–the entire country.
Quote from: davewiecking on September 28, 2015, 12:32:35 AM
Bobby Kennedy was a Senator from New York at the time of his assassination, and prior to that was a prosecutor in District Court in Brooklyn. That being said, it is a bit odd that the Triborough Bridge was named for him 40 years after his assassination.
Yes, it's the timing that's odd in RFK's case. Of course, I wasn't around when he was a NY senator, but I imagine it was similar to how Clinton was a NY senator: she had no particular roots in the state and wasn't anyone you'd ever consider to be an authoritative mouthpiece for the state's interests.
And to be bipartisan, there's a crapload of stuff named after Ronald Reagan in areas where he never visited and had no particular influence. I don't know, for example, why the new road from the AA Highway to KY 8 in Lewis County, built to access an industrial park, is named after him.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2015, 03:06:02 PM
I don't mind if it's part of a naming theme–for example, a series of streets all named after presidents, or naming schools after former governors of the state where the schools are located, etc. Of course, off the top of my head I can't think of anyplace that uses either of those particular themes!
Pierre uses the presidents on the eastern side of town... but then no one really thinks of Pierre of off the top of their head either.
I didn't know it had been forgotten that Robert Kennedy was a senator from New York. Isn't this why they named the bridge after him during the Time When All Crossings Suddenly Needed Persons' Names?
Regarding the fame of either Kennedy or MLK versus that of a William McKinley, fame and notoriety were different by the 1960s from how things were in 1900. These folks were on TV. People knew their faces, mannerisms, and personalities. When it was talked about that their deaths were like losing members of one's family, this was a concept that didn't exist in McKinley's day because almost no citizen had that intimate familiarity with McKinley.
We have much more emotional attachment to people we will never know today.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
And to be bipartisan, there's a crapload of stuff named after Ronald Reagan in areas where he never visited and had no particular influence. I don't know, for example, why the new road from the AA Highway to KY 8 in Lewis County, built to access an industrial park, is named after him.
There was an organized campaign, after Reagan's death, to get something (respectable) named for him in every U.S. county. That might explain some of the more random renames.
Good luck with that in Hawaii's five counties, which name hardly anything for mainlanders, except military facilities are sometimes named for admirals or generals.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
And to be bipartisan, there's a crapload of stuff named after Ronald Reagan in areas where he never visited and had no particular influence. I don't know, for example, why the new road from the AA Highway to KY 8 in Lewis County, built to access an industrial park, is named after him.
I was actually thinking of this last night: was Reagan as admired in his time as he is now? During his presidency, I only remember him being an object of ridicule (or at least teasing), but then again, I was a kid, for whom everything's worthy of ridicule or else we don't notice it. :-D
Anybody who was an adult at the time have a different recollection?
iPhone
Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2015, 12:23:08 AM
JFK probably was a good man, no doubt as his life span was before mine, so I was not around to witness his term in office. However, I am just asking why some people get named for things with absolutely no influence on us. Correct we should feel free to choose whomever we pick, and that is not what I am mad about nor I am not even mad at the mountain, the bridge, the airport, or whatever comes along with it.
Was JFK a good man? It depends on your definition. He was a great president and really did work hard for the American people. He would have done great things for our country had he not been killed IMO. On the other hand, he was a drug addicted womanizer who makes Bill Clinton look like a saint when it comes to his sex life. He certainly wasn't a good husband.
The point is that people are complicated on both sides. Regardless of political views, people will be people. Good presidents can be bad people (JFK) and good people can be bad presidents (Carter).
Quote from: empirestate on September 28, 2015, 11:01:12 PM
Anybody who was an adult at the time have a different recollection?
My mother grew up as a military brat during the 80s. She consistently ranks Reagan as her favorite president. If I'm not mistaken, this was because of how well Reagan funded the military. She moved houses every year growing up (she has no friends from school except college) and his services made those moves easier for her and her family.
Quote from: empirestate on September 28, 2015, 11:01:12 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
And to be bipartisan, there's a crapload of stuff named after Ronald Reagan in areas where he never visited and had no particular influence. I don't know, for example, why the new road from the AA Highway to KY 8 in Lewis County, built to access an industrial park, is named after him.
I was actually thinking of this last night: was Reagan as admired in his time as he is now? During his presidency, I only remember him being an object of ridicule (or at least teasing), but then again, I was a kid, for whom everything's worthy of ridicule or else we don't notice it. :-D
Anybody who was an adult at the time have a different recollection?
iPhone
I do, even though I was in bluer-than-blue Massachusetts during his term.
Remember that Reagan was re-elected in a landslide and, despite perhaps being doddering more behind the scenes, he was excellent at preparing for photo ops and public appearances, as well as his PR victory at Reykjavik (although some historians claim Gorbachev outwitted Reagan to the point where Reagan's aides had to rein him him before he agreed to nuclear arms cuts more severe than were politically feasible).
Anyway, although he certainly had his detractors, my perspective was that he was indeed quite popular.
Of course, the real fun thing about the time was the democratic majority in Congress!
Quote from: oscar on September 19, 2015, 08:11:05 PM
Bring back the $500 bill, with Pres. McKinley's face on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_denominations_of_United_States_currency#High_denomination_United_States_banknotes) (but with a more creative reverse, please).
On the back, there should be picture of the Denali mountain.
RFK was a Senator from NY, but more important when he was Attorney General in JFK's administration he fought many civil rights cases in the courts - desegregating the schools etc. The Surpreme's Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education had been on the books for a decade, but largely ignored until he started bringing the cases.
RFK's death was just after he won the California primary leading up to the 1968 election. Winning California made his nomination extremely likely and with a charismatic candidate like him he would probably have won the presidency in 1968. It's not much of a stretch to think he would have done a better job than Nixon.
Quote from: oscar on September 28, 2015, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
And to be bipartisan, there's a crapload of stuff named after Ronald Reagan in areas where he never visited and had no particular influence. I don't know, for example, why the new road from the AA Highway to KY 8 in Lewis County, built to access an industrial park, is named after him.
There was an organized campaign, after Reagan's death, to get something (respectable) named for him in every U.S. county. That might explain some of the more random renames.
They haven't been terribly successful in Kentucky. I can't think of a whole lot of things that are named for him, even in Republican counties in the old 5th Congressional District.
The first public appearance Richard Nixon made after his resignation from the presidency was in Hyden, Ky. (Leslie County) where the new high school gym and local civic/activity center was named after him. Nixon attended the dedication ceremony. I remember the story about why the gym was named for him, but can't recall it off the top of my head. It's probably available online somewhere.
Nixon moved into a very elite suburb in New Jersey in the 1980s. I remember seeing his photo in a lot of local businesses. He grew into this sort of grandfatherly presence in the area, with people even taking their kids trick-or-treating over there. This was probably the best his post-presidency reputation ever was, and not even they named anything after him.
The reason why so much random stuff is named after JFK/RFK and William McKinley is actually pretty much the same. All three of them were assassinated, and the country reacted to the sudden shock of losing a leader by naming stuff after the deceased. The wheels started turning on getting JFK on the half-dollar hours after his death.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 03, 2015, 04:53:30 AM
The reason why so much random stuff is named after JFK/RFK and William McKinley is actually pretty much the same. All three of them were assassinated, and the country reacted to the sudden shock of losing a leader by naming stuff after the deceased. The wheels started turning on getting JFK on the half-dollar hours after his death.
Well, the mountain was first named for McKinley before he was even elected, and I can't think of a spate of other renamings for him after his assassination. So I'm not sure that theory's as true for McKinley as it is for the Kennedys. (I also can't think of much named for Garfield.)