Sioux Falls has I-229. Why has there never been a loop/bypass built in the Fargo-Moorhead area? Does overland flooding have anything to do with it?
Probably NIMBY ism. Somebody did not want a bypass in their neighborhood is usually the main reason.
No need. Both 94 and 29 avoid the downtown Fargo/Moorhead area and function just fine, especially after 29 was widened/improved about 10 years ago.
Quote from: froggie on September 29, 2015, 08:26:51 AM
No need. Both 94 and 29 avoid the downtown Fargo/Moorhead area and function just fine, especially after 29 was widened/improved about 10 years ago.
Well, both 90 and 29 avoid downtown Sioux Falls, but 229 is still there. Maybe it's a South Dakota vs. North Dakota thing, like ND didn't want to spend more money on interstates but SD did or something.
Fargo's only 108,000 in population, and the times I've been through there, I-29 and I-94 seem to be more than adequate.
Quote from: Brandon on September 29, 2015, 01:32:58 PM
Fargo's only 108,000 in population, and the times I've been through there, I-29 and I-94 seem to be more than adequate.
The metro area is 228,000. Sioux Falls metro is 248,000.
Pretty similar.
Two random guesses:
1) South Dakota had better seated politicians in Congress when interstate mileage was being assigned?
2) Sioux Falls was growing faster than Fargo around 1950, and more likely to need a bypass. Using historical population data from Wikipedia:
Fargo Sioux Falls
1930 28,619 33,362
1940 32,580 40,832
1950 38,256 52,969
1960 46,662 65,466
EDIT: I think the better question may be why did Sioux Falls get a bypass, while many larger cities in other states didn't get a bypass or a spur?
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 29, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
EDIT: I think the better question may be why did Sioux Falls get a bypass, while many larger cities in other states didn't get a bypass or a spur?
Hmm. U.S. Senator Mundt from S.D. was on the Senate Appropriations Committee and its Public Works Subcommittee from 1953-1971. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 29, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
Two random guesses:
1) South Dakota had better seated politicians in Congress when interstate mileage was being assigned?
2) Sioux Falls was growing faster than Fargo around 1950, and more likely to need a bypass. Using historical population data from Wikipedia:
Fargo Sioux Falls
1930 28,619 33,362
1940 32,580 40,832
1950 38,256 52,969
1960 46,662 65,466
EDIT: I think the better question may be why did Sioux Falls get a bypass, while many larger cities in other states didn't get a bypass or a spur?
The alignment of I-29 early on was shown along what was later redesignated as I-229 as well. Could this have played with the eventual creation of the Sioux Falls freeway loop?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.interstate-guide.com%2Fmaps%2Fsioux_falls_sd_1960.jpg&hash=b74d0fbb4a5f39cd5a987371d18942b5a2ae84e4)
Sioux Falls inset from the 1960 RandThinking of Fargo, we did encounter some significant peak hour traffic the morning we left North Fargo. Some back-ups were occurring on the ramps to I-29 north from both directions of I-94. That new hospital and the area growth to the southwest will surely increase commuter traffic along I-94 in the long run. Not saying they need a bypass, but there is certainly land on the south side of the city for it currently, but suburban expansion is definitely going to continue.
Southbound at Exit 60 in 2007:
(https://www.aaroads.com/midwest/north_dakota029/i-029_sb_exit_060_05.jpg)
The same location in 2013 (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8044053,-96.8411233,3a,75y,201.12h,86.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swwSSIFbOEQTIGpxJ2uiW-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
I once was upgraded to first class on a flight due to some inconvenience I experienced. I ended up sitting next to a guy wearing a white suit and a matching white ten-gallon hat. I was living in Wisconsin at the time and he asked me if I had ever been to Fargo. I said that I hadn't. He said, "Well, you need to go" and with a twinkle in his eye, added, "It's amazing!"
I asked why, never having heard "Fargo" and "amazing" in the same sentence.
He paused for dramatic effect and then said, "It's perfectly flat!"
...
No need for a beltway there.
Quote from: kkt on September 29, 2015, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 29, 2015, 05:59:49 PM
EDIT: I think the better question may be why did Sioux Falls get a bypass, while many larger cities in other states didn't get a bypass or a spur?
Hmm. U.S. Senator Mundt from S.D. was on the Senate Appropriations Committee and its Public Works Subcommittee from 1953-1971. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.
That sounds like something a South Dakota politician would do.
Also, why did Rapid City get a spur and other larger cities didn't? (I love I-190, by the way)
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2015, 08:24:20 PM
No need for a beltway there.
Just because it's flat doesn't mean there isn't congestion.
Also, maybe Sioux Falls got a bypass because traffic coming north on I-29 might want to head east to MN and places beyond (and vice versa). I don't think that really applies to Fargo.
It was interesting to me that the EB I-94 control city at the I-29 interchange at Fargo is...Fargo. Admittedly, I-29 runs up the west side of most of the Fargo metro area, but I would have thought this to be an appropriate place to use a Minnesota location such as Minneapolis.
Quote from: SD Mapman on September 29, 2015, 09:38:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2015, 08:24:20 PM
No need for a beltway there.
Just because it's flat doesn't mean there isn't congestion.
The point was that because its flatness is the only amazing thing about Fargo that it doesn't have anything to cause congestion (i.e., to draw people there). And yes, I've since visited that flat city. :D
Quote from: SD Mapman on September 29, 2015, 09:38:56 PM
Also, maybe Sioux Falls got a bypass because traffic coming north on I-29 might want to head east to MN and places beyond (and vice versa). I don't think that really applies to Fargo.
Fargo probably has significant traffic coming in from the north (such as from Grand Forks or Winnipeg) that makes the turn southeast on I-94.
I've never experienced enough congestion in Fargo (multiple trips, most recent this July) to wonder why there wasn't a bypass. It might be that the need for bypasses in both cities was borderline, with North Dakota deciding to improve I-29 and I-94 if and when needed, rather than plan or build a bypass to anticipate future traffic volumes. Roughly similar situations, but perhaps different approaches by different DOTs.
QuoteFargo probably has significant traffic coming in from the north (such as from Grand Forks or Winnipeg) that makes the turn southeast on I-94.
According to 2015 NDDOT traffic counts, there is roughly 21K vpd (~2,200 of them trucks) that take the ramps between 94 East and 29 North. However, since I-29 thins down to less than 16K vpd total north of Exit 69, this suggests to me that much (if not most) of that 29-94 traffic is local in nature.
The timing of this thread is particularly appropriate for me because I was just in Fargo a few nights ago and wondered the same thing about why there's no loop around the metro area. The explanations above seem to make sense.
I will say, however, that I kinda liked Fargo. It's a college town that reminded me a bit of a less-exciting version of Ann Arbor, Michigan. I'd like to visit Fargo again one day.
One fun little tidbit... it was my first time in North Dakota, and I was about to enter Minnesota for the first time as well. My first time entering Minnesota was actually on foot. My partner and I were walking around downtown and we decided to cross the U.S. 10/BL 94 bridge into Moorhead before turning around and walking back to our car.
I lived in Fargo-Moorhead 20 years ago in college, and I wondered about it then, and it's much larger now (which is why I asked the question.) Fargo is a very nice city, if you can stand the weather, which can be brutal.
Upon thinking more about about it, I can think of two reasons why there might be no bypass.
1. If a bypass were built, where would it go? My thought would be to the north to avoid F-M on the way to Grand Forks and Winnipeg from the Twin Cities. This would involve MNDOT more than North Dakota, and that's probably a big reason why it wouldn't happen. What would that serve for Minnesota? Sioux Falls is much farther from the border so it's a one-state issue.
2. Sioux Falls probably makes a little more sense, in that to the south, Sioux City isn't that far, followed by Omaha, St. Joseph and KC. There probably is considerably more traffic SB out of Sioux Falls than in any direction out of Fargo (except maybe EB).
I think Froggie had an idea for an I-629 in this area some time ago. But in any case, I agree that it's not needed at this point.
A long time ago, yes, but that was purely fictional.
Quote from: oscar on September 29, 2015, 10:22:50 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on September 29, 2015, 09:38:56 PM
Also, maybe Sioux Falls got a bypass because traffic coming north on I-29 might want to head east to MN and places beyond (and vice versa). I don't think that really applies to Fargo.
Fargo probably has significant traffic coming in from the north (such as from Grand Forks or Winnipeg) that makes the turn southeast on I-94.
That would make the bypass go through MN, and cooperation between states is really hard to get going.
Quote from: discochris on September 29, 2015, 11:13:08 PM
I lived in Fargo-Moorhead 20 years ago in college, and I wondered about it then, and it's much larger now (which is why I asked the question.) Fargo is a very nice city, if you can stand the weather, which can be brutal.
Upon thinking more about about it, I can think of two reasons why there might be no bypass.
1. If a bypass were built, where would it go? My thought would be to the north to avoid F-M on the way to Grand Forks and Winnipeg from the Twin Cities. This would involve MNDOT more than North Dakota, and that's probably a big reason why it wouldn't happen. What would that serve for Minnesota? Sioux Falls is much farther from the border so it's a one-state issue.
2. Sioux Falls probably makes a little more sense, in that to the south, Sioux City isn't that far, followed by Omaha, St. Joseph and KC. There probably is considerably more traffic SB out of Sioux Falls than in any direction out of Fargo (except maybe EB).
It's 141 or so miles south to Fargo, 190 miles to Bismarck, 70 miles to Grand Forks...need I say more?
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on September 29, 2015, 10:10:55 PM
It was interesting to me that the EB I-94 control city at the I-29 interchange at Fargo is...Fargo. Admittedly, I-29 runs up the west side of most of the Fargo metro area, but I would have thought this to be an appropriate place to use a Minnesota location such as Minneapolis.
I've been there recently. That's the only time Fargo is mentioned as an EB control city for I-94 within the Fargo city limits. Every other cross street, and the SB I-29 to EB I-94 movement, all have Minneapolis as the control city.
I'mv very unfamiliar with this area, but it seems clear that a full 360-degree loop would be hard to justify. If you could only build a 90-degree or 180-degree bypass, where should it go? I'd assume the NE quadrant between I-29 north of town and I-94 east of town or SW and SE quadrants swinging south from I-94 west of town to I-94 east of town?
Quote from: mwb1848 on October 04, 2015, 02:22:32 PM
I'mv very unfamiliar with this area, but it seems clear that a full 360-degree loop would be hard to justify. If you could only build a 90-degree or 180-degree bypass, where should it go? I'd assume the NE quadrant between I-29 north of town and I-94 east of town or SW and SE quadrants swinging south from I-94 west of town to I-94 east of town?
If you could only build one quadrant, I would say NE, but it would certainly have to cross into Minnesota and who knows if the Minnesota DOT would willingly cooperate.
Then again, looking at the area and its traffic counts, I'm not even sure a quarter-loop is necessary, much less a complete 360-degree one.
I've always wondered this. And I believe it's due to state populations and projections?
I came across something that indicates that Fargo has no desire to create any sort of loop around the city, even though they're growing. I'm too lazy to find it, but Sioux Falls is pushing ahead with the SD 100 loop.
If discochris wants a loop/bypass in the Fargo area, maybe he/she should build it him/herself.
Does Fargo have traffic problems? I imagine a city of that size would suffer negligible congetstion on its freeways, even at rush hours.
For a city like Chicago with lots of commuter and through traffic, bypasses are useful to encourgae through traffic to bypass, ensuring less traffic on radial routes.
For Fargo, what's the point?
Quote from: mrsman on November 06, 2015, 01:45:24 PM
Does Fargo have traffic problems? I imagine a city of that size would suffer negligible congetstion on its freeways, even at rush hours.
For a city like Chicago with lots of commuter and through traffic, bypasses are useful to encourgae through traffic to bypass, ensuring less traffic on radial routes.
For Fargo, what's the point?
I don't think it's necessary really, but I was more or less contrasting it to Sioux Falls, which does have one.
Quote from: mrsman on November 06, 2015, 01:45:24 PM
Does Fargo have traffic problems? I imagine a city of that size would suffer negligible congetstion on its freeways, even at rush hours.
For a city like Chicago with lots of commuter and through traffic, bypasses are useful to encourgae through traffic to bypass, ensuring less traffic on radial routes.
For North Dakota, what's the point?
FTFY
Quote from: swbrotha100 on October 02, 2015, 01:25:10 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on September 29, 2015, 10:10:55 PM
It was interesting to me that the EB I-94 control city at the I-29 interchange at Fargo is...Fargo. Admittedly, I-29 runs up the west side of most of the Fargo metro area, but I would have thought this to be an appropriate place to use a Minnesota location such as Minneapolis.
I've been there recently. That's the only time Fargo is mentioned as an EB control city for I-94 within the Fargo city limits. Every other cross street, and the SB I-29 to EB I-94 movement, all have Minneapolis as the control city.
I live in Fargo. In summer 2017, they actually replaced that sign on NB I-29 and the EB I-94 control city is Minneapolis now. The signs that were up before were from when there was actually a gap between Fargo and West Fargo.
Interestingly enough, up until around 10 years ago, if one was going EB on I-94 headed towards I-29, the two NB control cities for I-29 were Fargo and Grand Forks. When the sign was replaced, Grand Forks became the only listing.
In addition, there has been talk of someday constructing a beltway of the Fargo-Moorhead area. The Minnesota Highway 336 east of Moorhead that connects I-94 and US-10 is the start of it. Otherwise, we have the "Metropolitan Beltline" for now, which consists of two lane roads and four-lane urban arterial roads, with a decent gap in West Fargo, and runs through Harwood north of the metro area. I actually did a project last year in college about constructing a Metro Beltway, so all very interesting to me.
Why such interest in spending hard earned tax payer money 💴 lining the pockets wth pork projects? The area was just fine with US 10. I-94 is more than sufficient.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 08, 2019, 12:33:37 AM
Why such interest in spending hard earned tax payer money 💴 lining the pockets wth pork projects? The area was just fine with US 10. I-94 is more than sufficient.
I agree. Dont build it if it is not needed/no too congested
Quote from: SoCal Kid on April 08, 2019, 12:35:32 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 08, 2019, 12:33:37 AM
Why such interest in spending hard earned tax payer money [emoji384] lining the pockets wth pork projects? The area was just fine with US 10. I-94 is more than sufficient.
I agree. Dont build it if it is not needed/no too congested
Agreed. Living in Fargo now, it's fine as it is. If we were a bit closer to oil country maybe it would be necessary, but still 94 and 29 are great.
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Quote from: SD Mapman on September 29, 2015, 09:38:56 PM
Also, why did Rapid City get a spur and other larger cities didn't? (I love I-190, by the way)
Rapid City wasn't on the interstate when I-190 was created. It kind of built up towards the interstate afterward.
True. Those connectors like 190 are fantastic I think. Bismarck has one too, I-194, however it's unsigned. Same goes for I-535 in Duluth-Superior area
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Is Fargo-Moorhead looking into any kind of outer higher-speed route? I think one from the western part of West Fargo to the south side of Fargo south of 52nd Ave would be a huge benefit, at least when it comes to economic growth.
Sioux Falls has SD 100 that they're building. A 55 MPH 2-3 lane roadway with interchanges at a couple of places (Benson Road and 57th St.) and traffic signals every mile that parallels I-229 to the south and east.
Fargo seems to have great growth, but a similar roadway could only encourage that.
^ The regional MPO has a full-loop at-grade arterial on the books, though there are still questions on where it will cross the river on the south side. MN 336 is the eastern part of this loop.
There have been a few options discussed including 70th Avenue South and 76th Avenue South. A new south side river crossing is what has been emphasized to the best of my knowledge, in addition to a new I-29/76th Avenue South interchange. A direct river crossing over to Horace is needed in my opinion. As for the loop I recall seeing 55 MPH actually too.
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