I'm curious whether anyone else thinks it seems like many drivers have forgotten either that you're allowed to pass on two-lane roads (when permitted by the lines, of course) or how to do it. I know at least on the East Coast it's often more difficult to pass than it used to be due to increased traffic and seemingly fewer passing zones, with the latter perhaps being a result of the former (I hypothesize that perhaps some of the shorter passing zones may have been eliminated as traffic increased), and certainly we've all had the bad luck of encountering situations where someone comes the other way every time you hit a passing zone so you're just plain stuck, but that's not what I'm getting at.
Yesterday we took a football trip to Charlottesville and our route uses a couple of segments of two-lane highway (VA-20 between Wilderness and Orange; VA-231/22 between Gordonsville and Shadwell). We all know that successful passing on a two-lane road often requires that you pull up somewhat close to the vehicle ahead of you as you approach a passing zone, especially if you're on a road that doesn't have a lot of them. Multiple times yesterday I saw people tailgating slow vehicles as if they were waiting to pass, yet then not passing when they finally reached a passing zone and instead continuing to tailgate (which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once). This isn't the first time I've observed this sort of thing and it makes me wonder whether people on the East Coast spend so much less time on two-lane roads than was the case in the past that maybe they don't know how to pass or are afraid to do it? (Ms1995hoo doesn't especially like it when I pass on that sort of road either, although she concedes that it's damn annoying when you get stuck behind someone who can't hold a consistent speed and is doing 60 in a 55 zone one minute and 40 in the same 55 zone a minute later.)
No, I'd say it's still very common, rather than a lost art. Maybe the "lost art" part is an East Coast thing, but here in the Midwest, passing on two-lanes roads is very common.
On most weekdays, there is simply too much oncoming traffic to execute a pass safely, at least here in central New Jersey. On the weekends, specifically Sunday it's more possible depending on the time of the year. (Nice weather can equal more traffic heading towards the Shore)
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
(which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once)
Someone told me that you can only [legally] pass one vehicle per time by using passing zones. Was I misinformed?
I get passed often enough on Michigan rural highways that I don't think it's a lost art. (For the record, I drive the speed limit, maybe five over.) There are some who won't pass no way, no how. But I think it's more an issue of increased traffic and simply the oncoming lane not being clear. That's often the case when I want to pass someone who is actually driving slower than I.
What I don't get is people who think I'm going to speed up when they ride my bumper. (I know, wrong thread to get started on that.)
Somewhat OT, your question brings back to mind an irritating episode from a road trip 25+ years ago. I was on some twist highway through the mountains out west with no other vehicle within 100 miles of me EXCEPT a @#$%&! truck in front of me, at least 20 below the speed limit, and I COULD NOT GET AROUND IT. I'm surprised I didn't burst a blood vessel in my fury. It didn't occur to me at the time to simply pull over and wait ten minutes to get some distance between us.
I do think it's becoming a little bit of a lost art. Passing is certainly a necessity in this part of the country, so it occurs on a regular basis.
What happens that's weird, though, is that I've noticed more and more people tailgate the car they are passing, pull out into the oncoming lane, and then accelerate before merging back in. That increases the amount of time they have to be in the oncoming lane, which makes it more difficult to safely pass if there is oncoming traffic. The more proper approach is to lay off, get a running start, and then pass quickly.
I think partially because of that, I see people being needlessly timid. Our sightlines out here are pretty great - on a straight road you can often see 3/4 of a mile to a mile ahead. If there's oncoming traffic on the far end of that sight horizon, and you're in something other than a 1987 Yugo, you should be able to safely pass without running any kind of risk of a head on collision, even at Montana driving speeds (70-75 MPH). I see a lot of people refusing to pass if there is any oncoming traffic. When I drive at night, I actually prefer to see oncoming traffic - if I can see headlights in the far distance, I know there's not going to be an unexpected curve or something and know I'm probably clear to pass.
Then there is the whole etiquette thing as you mentioned - if you aren't planning on passing, you need to leave gaps so that people can pass you. I'll say that when I was in Delaware clinching that system earlier that summer, I did find people overly timid about passing and at least a couple times had to work my way up to the front of a 10+ car line, usually through a series of 5-7 individual passing maneuvers. That's hard to do when people are tailgating, and required me to sort of wedge my way in (probably unsafely in the eyes of the tailgating driver) a couple times.
I guess perhaps it is a lost art back east, now that you mention it. I think it's a dying art around here.
QuoteSomewhat OT, your question brings back to mind an irritating episode from a road trip 25+ years ago. I was on some twist highway through the mountains out west with no other vehicle within 100 miles of me EXCEPT a @#$%&! truck in front of me, at least 20 below the speed limit, and I COULD NOT GET AROUND IT. I'm surprised I didn't burst a blood vessel in my fury. It didn't occur to me at the time to simply pull over and wait ten minutes to get some distance between us.
Idaho law requires you to pull out at the next available turnout if you are delaying more than three vehicles, and this is both signed and enforced on mountainous roads.
In other states, I find bright-flashing/horn honking as vehicles drive by turnouts usually eventually gets the job done to people who are just totally oblivious. Alternatively, if there is a paved shoulder I've been known to just do the Mexico thing and pull out anyway on mountain roads, honking my horn prior to passing (honking prior to passing is actually required by law at least in most western states - I tend not to do it unless it seems necessary because the driver seems to not be paying attention, or they're tailgating and I need their gap as mentioned above, and in practice you don't see it done very often).
QuoteSomeone told me that you can only [legally] pass one vehicle per time by using passing zones. Was I misinformed?
I think that's probably good defensive driving practice, but I don't think it's the law. I think my record is passing six semitrucks on US 212 in SE Montana without returning to the correct driving lane.
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
It really depends on the road. Some people wait far too long, or can't have any cars in the distance before they bother to pass.
The thing I've actually seen as the problem is people being unable to break 50 on a two lane road. There are many here that are 55, and getting stuck behind someone who won't go past 45, and then not pulling into the slow traffic lane or speeding up when a passing area comes up is so frustrating.
Quotespeeding up when a passing area comes up
I've noticed that becoming more of a problem lately on mountain roads. If you go slowly around the curves, and there is a brief passing lane and there are people who don't want to pass, don't speed up - continue going the same speed so that those other cars can pass you.
QuoteI think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
A 150 mile drive on a two lane road behind a truck going the 60 MPH truck speed limit in Montana takes 2.5 hours. A 150 mile drive on a two lane road at the car speed limit of 70 MPH in Montana takes about 2 hours and 8 minutes. So about 11 minutes an hour. That's a pretty significant chunk of time.
Quote from: corco on November 22, 2015, 11:34:41 AM
I think that's probably good defensive driving practice, but I don't think it's the law. I think my record is passing six semitrucks on US 212 in SE Montana without returning to the correct driving lane.
I envy you. Most of the time I have the opportunity to pass a single vehicle. Passing
six semis in one go is something that I feel is nearly impossible over in the Northeast.
I can say in Fairfax County Public Schools driver's ed or my behind-the-wheel instruction, rural passing was never brought up. We did spend time on parallel parking.
I guess you focus your limited education and instruction time on what you expect drivers to experience.
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
I get concerned with people who are "uncomfortable" about doing it. People who are uncomfortable doing lawful things on roadways may not be 100% fit to drive. Given how many are simultaneously tailgating while doing it are creating a higher risk of an accident.
And, I see this constantly in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, some people or either too lazy to pass, too scared, or literally aren't skilled enough of a driver to do it without ending up in the woods.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 22, 2015, 10:36:39 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
(which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once)
Someone told me that you can only [legally] pass one vehicle per time by using passing zones. Was I misinformed?
I recall learning the same thing you did, but it's a situation where road reality trumps by-the-book technicality. Plus as a practical matter with the way people tailgate you may have no choice but to pass multiple vehicles due to lack of room to get back over.
I'd guess this is another one of those things that may vary in different states. I would not be surprised if passing multiple vehicles were prohibited in most East Coast states but permitted out west where long-distance travel on two-lane roads is more important and sight lines are often better. (Seeing 65-mph speed limits on two-lane roads during our trip out west earlier this fall was a nice new experience for me.)
Eh. Here in PA, select few know how to do it. Just simply don't do it near a curve, overspeed, and make sure your view is clear, so you don't ram into a car when you overtake. That's my interpretation anyway (plus extensive reading from the PA Driver's Manual).
Quote from: SectorZ on November 22, 2015, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
I get concerned with people who are "uncomfortable" about doing it. People who are uncomfortable doing lawful things on roadways may not be 100% fit to drive. Given how many are simultaneously tailgating while doing it are creating a higher risk of an accident.
And, I see this constantly in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, some people or either too lazy to pass, too scared, or literally aren't skilled enough of a driver to do it without ending up in the woods.
I'm also 19 and have spent more time (and distance) riding a bus than behind the wheel (either in the city or on a highway). On top of that, when I drive, it's usually the speed limit or a little faster. If people are so keen to pass me (and thus put themselves in danger by going faster than a posted limit) than go right ahead. I'm fine with that. Last summer (the last time I drove on a two lane highway), I estimated about 6-8 cars passed me when I was going 105-110 (65 - 70 mph) in a 100 zone as it was getting dark.
Of course some people don't want to do the speed limit on some roadways, because they feel uncomfortable doing it, even in good weather. It may be concerning, because it appears that person doesn't have the mental ability to perform the function of driving at a higher speed. But at the end of the day, it's their choice to do a slower speed (obviously above a posted minimum), even in good weather, and it's perfectly legal.
I don't understand why it's a huge problem if people don't want to pass. If there's a truck in front of me going at slow speed, and I don't want to pass, does it really matter to you? If it's throwing rocks at my windshield, then I'll pass. If I don't then I won't. If another driver behind me wants to pass, go ahead. I'm fine with that.
Sorry if this felt like it was an aggressive post, but just because it's perfectly legal, doesn't mean it's mandatory.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 22, 2015, 12:01:26 PM
I can say in Fairfax County Public Schools driver's ed or my behind-the-wheel instruction, rural passing was never brought up. We did spend time on parallel parking.
....
Heh, whereas I also grew up in Fairfax County (Woodson HS) but took a private behind-the-wheel class and parallel parking was not taught. I taught myself to do it.
I do not remember whether the behind-the-wheel instructor talked about two-lane roads. We did spend some time on a few that no longer exist (Pohick Road from Huntsman Boulevard to Route 123 was one; it's now the Fairfax County Parkway), but I just don't remember whether passing was part of it. I'd done enough travel on two-lane roads growing up that I'd learned the technique pretty well from my father as it was.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 12:36:19 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 22, 2015, 12:01:26 PM
I can say in Fairfax County Public Schools driver's ed or my behind-the-wheel instruction, rural passing was never brought up. We did spend time on parallel parking.
....
Heh, whereas I also grew up in Fairfax County (Woodson HS) but took a private behind-the-wheel class and parallel parking was not taught. I taught myself to do it.
I do not remember whether the behind-the-wheel instructor talked about two-lane roads. We did spend some time on a few that no longer exist (Pohick Road from Huntsman Boulevard to Route 123 was one; it's now the Fairfax County Parkway), but I just don't remember whether passing was part of it. I'd done enough travel on two-lane roads growing up that I'd learned the technique pretty well from my father as it was.
Keith's driving school. Not sure if he's still in business. Said that if I didn't learn parallel parking young, I'd never bother to learn it. He also hated Maryland and people from Baltimore in particular. Claimed he taught all of the brothers who formed Five Guys how to drive.
I do remember cars passing school buses on VA 156 in Prince George County when I was younger. Though I am pretty sure that it is against the law.
Really? Definitely allowed out here if they aren't stopped - but then we're probably dealing with much more rural areas.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 22, 2015, 12:40:47 PM
Keith's driving school. Not sure if he's still in business. Said that if I didn't learn parallel parking young, I'd never bother to learn it. He also hated Maryland and people from Baltimore in particular. Claimed he taught all of the brothers who formed Five Guys how to drive.
Keith Vance? I remember him. He was the instructor I had but he hadn't started his own business yet–I took the class through Northern Virginia Driving School, at least I think that was the name (it's been almost 27 years, of course!). I recall him having a bit of a volcanic temper.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 22, 2015, 12:40:47 PM
Keith's driving school. Not sure if he's still in business. Said that if I didn't learn parallel parking young, I'd never bother to learn it. He also hated Maryland and people from Baltimore in particular. Claimed he taught all of the brothers who formed Five Guys how to drive.
Keith Vance? I remember him. He was the instructor I had but he hadn't started his own business yet–I took the class through Northern Virginia Driving School, at least I think that was the name (it's been almost 27 years, of course!). I recall him having a bit of a volcanic temper.
Possibly. He had his own set of brakes rigged to the passenger side where he sat.
He also had me pull into a 7-11 down near Burke so he could grab a sandwich and drink (night classes at the time, 7 8 9 PM). According to a *sigh* Fairfax Underground thread, that wasn't a rare thing: http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/read/2/492330.html
Apparently he also closed the business among shady allegations of bounced paychecks and the like.
He taught me to stop at a red light such that you could just see the rear tires of the car in front of you. Still use it.
That all sounds quite familiar!
I stop that same way most of the time unless I pull up to give someone room to access the turn lane. Drives me crazy how people have taken to leaving a car length or more at a red light.
I'll pass sometimes, but I'm often afraid that an oncoming car will pop out from behind the next curve or hill every time I do, so I often limit it to when I have a long sight distance (rare in the northeast), there isn't much oncoming traffic anyways, the vehicle ahead is going very slow (and thus easier to pass), or if I'm already pissed off at the vehicle in front. Several times I've attempted to pass someone, moved over, accelerated up to pass in a quick manner, and then had to slam on my brakes and get back behind because of an oncoming car that just appeared.
Even with my timidness with passing, I'm still more aggressive than the majority of upstate NY drivers and the entirety of Vermont drivers. So yeah, I'd definitely say it's a lost art, at least in the northeast.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 22, 2015, 10:36:39 AM
Someone told me that you can only [legally] pass one vehicle per time by using passing zones. Was I misinformed?
That's what I've heard too. In college, one of my professors even got pulled over for passing multiple cars at once.
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
The "rush" is that driving slower than the speed I'm accustomed to for given roadway conditions feels physically painful.
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 12:34:08 PM
I don't understand why it's a huge problem if people don't want to pass. If there's a truck in front of me going at slow speed, and I don't want to pass, does it really matter to you? If it's throwing rocks at my windshield, then I'll pass. If I don't then I won't. If another driver behind me wants to pass, go ahead. I'm fine with that.
Well, if you're refusal to pass makes it impossible for others to pass the truck, I can very well see why they'd be annoyed by it.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 12:44:04 PM
I do remember cars passing school buses on VA 156 in Prince George County when I was younger. Though I am pretty sure that it is against the law.
Quote from: corco on November 22, 2015, 12:46:07 PM
Really? Definitely allowed out here if they aren't stopped - but then we're probably dealing with much more rural areas.
I think the saying is "Do not pass when red lights flash"; ergo, you may pass when red lights aren't flashing.
There is one road near me that I use to get to work, where the road is winding and has very few signals. Depending on the time of day when I'm going to work (which varies depending on my shift), I will overtake cars in front of me if A) they are going slower than the limit (limit = 40, I will pass if they are averaging below that) or B) I am behind a truck (kicking rocks or not, I don't like the lack of visibility -- it's like driving behind a wall, and it makes me uncomfortable). Of course, you can't legally overtake if the vehicle is going above the limit, so trucks that are going above the limit, I just back off from and wait it out. But usually because the road goes up and down, trucks have a hard time maintaining the limit.
I tend to think of passing zones (without oncoming cars) as being a road with two lanes in one direction. On the opposite end, when I'm on a freeway, I tend to think of the left lane as an oncoming lane, reserved only for passing. This state of mind helps me be A) more liberal on two lane roads so that I can make reasonable progress, and B) be more conservative when I'm on a freeway so I don't camp in the left lane.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks it seems like many drivers have forgotten either that you're allowed to pass on two-lane roads (when permitted by the lines, of course) or how to do it. I know at least on the East Coast it's often more difficult to pass than it used to be due to increased traffic and seemingly fewer passing zones, with the latter perhaps being a result of the former (I hypothesize that perhaps some of the shorter passing zones may have been eliminated as traffic increased), and certainly we've all had the bad luck of encountering situations where someone comes the other way every time you hit a passing zone so you're just plain stuck, but that's not what I'm getting at.
Yesterday we took a football trip to Charlottesville and our route uses a couple of segments of two-lane highway (VA-20 between Wilderness and Orange; VA-231/22 between Gordonsville and Shadwell). We all know that successful passing on a two-lane road often requires that you pull up somewhat close to the vehicle ahead of you as you approach a passing zone, especially if you're on a road that doesn't have a lot of them. Multiple times yesterday I saw people tailgating slow vehicles as if they were waiting to pass, yet then not passing when they finally reached a passing zone and instead continuing to tailgate (which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once). This isn't the first time I've observed this sort of thing and it makes me wonder whether people on the East Coast spend so much less time on two-lane roads than was the case in the past that maybe they don't know how to pass or are afraid to do it? (Ms1995hoo doesn't especially like it when I pass on that sort of road either, although she concedes that it's damn annoying when you get stuck behind someone who can't hold a consistent speed and is doing 60 in a 55 zone one minute and 40 in the same 55 zone a minute later.)
I've driven both of the 2-lane roads you refer to dozens upon dozens of times. I have seen plenty of passing on VA 20. Not very much on VA 22/231 which has a 50 mph speed limit and terrible sight lines from numerous curves and the rolling hills...
Mike
QuoteSeveral times I've attempted to pass someone, moved over, accelerated up to pass in a quick manner, and then had to slam on my brakes and get back behind because of an oncoming car that just appeared.
And that will happen - there's nothing wrong with that. That's part of passing and should be expected to happen sometimes.
I'd recommend swapping "accelerated up to pass in a quick manner" with "moved over" in your order - if you're already going fast, you won't have to be building speed so much in the oncoming lane, so you can get in and out much more quickly if an oncoming car appears. You also won't be in a position where you're slamming the accelerator and then the brake in rapid succession - you'll already be mostly up to speed, which physics tells us is safer.
It's kind of more intuitive to tailgate, pull out, accelerate, and pass - and a lot of people do it that way - but it's much less safe to pass in that manner. If I see somebody I want to pass, I lay off and then gun it, tailgating them only for about half a second as I whip into the oncoming lane as late as I possibly can. Frankly, it's hard to see oncoming traffic when you're tailgating the car in front of you, so your sightline should be better if you lay off anyway. The risk to that approach is the car in front of you slamming their brakes and you not being able to stop, but you should have access to the oncoming lane if you have to swerve around anyway.
For that reason I think there is one exception in which the "pull out and gun it" method works best - and that's on fairly steep downhill grades, though I think most defensive driver courses would probably tell you not to pass cars going downhill.
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
I like to have the road clear in front of me if possible. You don't have to worry about the car slamming on brakes etc. And if a vehicle is going super slow, it probably has mechanical problems, is overloaded, driver impaired or inexperienced. It is smarter and safer to be away from such vehicles You are able to see the road ahead and the vistas. Makes the drive less stressful.
And it can save time, admittedly the time saved by passing is usually gone at the next traffic light. But having a clear roadnin front of me is worth it.
I'm pretty cautious about it. Typically when I need to pass people it's when I'm driving on MN 61, which has a lot of curves and rolling hills, and no passing lanes beyond Gooseberry Falls. There are few truly viable sections to pass between Gooseberry and Grand Marais.
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 22, 2015, 02:59:30 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks it seems like many drivers have forgotten either that you're allowed to pass on two-lane roads (when permitted by the lines, of course) or how to do it. I know at least on the East Coast it's often more difficult to pass than it used to be due to increased traffic and seemingly fewer passing zones, with the latter perhaps being a result of the former (I hypothesize that perhaps some of the shorter passing zones may have been eliminated as traffic increased), and certainly we've all had the bad luck of encountering situations where someone comes the other way every time you hit a passing zone so you're just plain stuck, but that's not what I'm getting at.
Yesterday we took a football trip to Charlottesville and our route uses a couple of segments of two-lane highway (VA-20 between Wilderness and Orange; VA-231/22 between Gordonsville and Shadwell). We all know that successful passing on a two-lane road often requires that you pull up somewhat close to the vehicle ahead of you as you approach a passing zone, especially if you're on a road that doesn't have a lot of them. Multiple times yesterday I saw people tailgating slow vehicles as if they were waiting to pass, yet then not passing when they finally reached a passing zone and instead continuing to tailgate (which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once). This isn't the first time I've observed this sort of thing and it makes me wonder whether people on the East Coast spend so much less time on two-lane roads than was the case in the past that maybe they don't know how to pass or are afraid to do it? (Ms1995hoo doesn't especially like it when I pass on that sort of road either, although she concedes that it's damn annoying when you get stuck behind someone who can't hold a consistent speed and is doing 60 in a 55 zone one minute and 40 in the same 55 zone a minute later.)
I've driven both of the 2-lane roads you refer to dozens upon dozens of times. I have seen plenty of passing on VA 20. Not very much on VA 22/231 which has a 50 mph speed limit and terrible sight lines from numerous curves and the rolling hills...
Mike
I've driven them hundreds of times over the years since I learned about that route between Charlottesville and Northern Virginia from my college roommate second and third years (not coincidentally, when I gave him a lift home from school, it was by far the most direct route because his parents lived near Mount Vernon). My perception is that passing used to be far more common on that segment of Route 20 than it is nowadays.
It's never been "easy" to pass on Route 231/22 because of the reasons you cite. It's easier northbound than it is southbound because there are more passing zones northbound, but either way, there's one good passing zone a short distance north of that scenic little church near Cismont. Last night we were stuck two vehicles behind a limo whose driver was constantly slowing down big-time. The guy in front of us was inches from the limo's bumper like he wanted the guy to go faster, but when we reached the passing zone (which I knew was coming), the guy didn't pass until AFTER I had passed both of them. (My wife would say I whipped out to pass before the guy even got a chance, but I'd disagree with her because I hung back briefly in case he did pull out.) On the next two-lane segment (Route 20 from Orange up to Route 3 at Wilderness), the guy ahead of us tailgated constantly and never passed, even after I passed him and the guy in front of him.
I guess what I don't understand, and what prompted me to start this thread, is–it seems like tailgating has become the accepted way to express displeasure with the speed of the vehicle ahead of you. So if you want to go faster and you can legally pass the guy, and you clearly have space to do so (as others have noted, at night it's especially easy to see oncoming headlights), why wouldn't you do it? Why would you continue to tailgate for 10 or 15 miles? It makes no sense at all to me to drive like that.
Incidentally, I always drive with my headlights on when I'm on two-lane roads that have passing zones,* regardless of the time of day or weather (none of our cars have DRLs). I saw this done in Canada when I was a kid riding with my parents and I quickly saw how much easier it makes it to see oncoming cars, so I've always done it to make it easier for someone coming the other way to see me if he's trying to decide whether it's safe to pass.
*"Two-lane roads that have passing zones" meant to distinguish rural highways where such zones are common versus things like suburban streets. I don't necessarily have my lights on when I drive on the latter, though I suppose there are a number of aggressive drivers in my neighborhood who will pass over the double yellow line if you're not going at least 40 mph in the 25-mph zone.....Edited to add: I should mention that I used yesterday's trip solely as an example because it's what prompted me to think about the issue. I see the same thing pretty much whenever I drive on two-lane roads on the East Coast, though–people seem to be reluctant to pass. The same was definitely not the case on our trip to New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona earlier this fall. As I noted earlier, I don't doubt people there spend more time on two-lane roads and encounter less traffic overall on them. Either way, I know I've never been reluctant to pass when I think it's appropriate!
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2015, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 12:34:08 PM
I don't understand why it's a huge problem if people don't want to pass. If there's a truck in front of me going at slow speed, and I don't want to pass, does it really matter to you? If it's throwing rocks at my windshield, then I'll pass. If I don't then I won't. If another driver behind me wants to pass, go ahead. I'm fine with that.
Well, if your refusal to pass makes it impossible for others to pass the truck, I can very well see why they'd be annoyed by it.
Fair enough. I suppose I could just pull over and let cars pass.
Quote from: jwolfer on November 22, 2015, 03:30:20 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
I like to have the road clear in front of me if possible. You don't have to worry about the car slamming on brakes etc. And if a vehicle is going super slow, it probably has mechanical problems, is overloaded, driver impaired or inexperienced. It is smarter and safer to be away from such vehicles You are able to see the road ahead and the vistas. Makes the drive less stressful.
And it can save time, admittedly the time saved by passing is usually gone at the next traffic light. But having a clear roadnin front of me is worth it.
I can't argue with that. Especially in the winter time.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that because I haven't been trained at all in passing on a two lane highway, I've never felt the requirement of doing it. I've hardly done it, and thus I'm inexperienced and uncomfortable. I got my full licence when I was still 17 (only about 15-16 months after my first drive), and, at least for me, passing on a highway, nor parallel parking was tested (which I have trouble doing as well) on my only road test. Besides that though, I believe I'm a careful and alert driver, who can perform well enough to be considered safe for everyone else.
I think the point above partially addresses the question in the OP. Perhaps drivers are just more incapable of passing than they used to. Or, maybe it's due to more freeways and multi-laned highways.
I don't like driving period, but doing this just pushes it over the edge for me.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 12:44:04 PM
I do remember cars passing school buses on VA 156 in Prince George County when I was younger. Though I am pretty sure that it is against the law.
Quote from: corco on November 22, 2015, 12:46:07 PM
Really? Definitely allowed out here if they aren't stopped - but then we're probably dealing with much more rural areas.
I think the saying is "Do not pass when red lights flash"; ergo, you may pass when red lights aren't flashing.
Yes I was talking about when not stopped. I should have clarified that and I am unsure where I heard that from but it may be the case in VA.
EDIT: I did not find anything in VA's DMV Manual on it. So I may be wrong, unless 1995hoo or someone knows otherwise.
I don't think passing is lost in rural areas. In the exurbs of Buffalo, I have gone the speed limit [55] on rural 2 lane roads but have had people blow past me doing 70 to pass.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 04:29:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 12:44:04 PM
I do remember cars passing school buses on VA 156 in Prince George County when I was younger. Though I am pretty sure that it is against the law.
Quote from: corco on November 22, 2015, 12:46:07 PM
Really? Definitely allowed out here if they aren't stopped - but then we're probably dealing with much more rural areas.
I think the saying is "Do not pass when red lights flash"; ergo, you may pass when red lights aren't flashing.
Yes I was talking about when not stopped. I should have clarified that and I am unsure where I heard that from but it may be the case in VA.
EDIT: I did not find anything in VA's DMV Manual on it. So I may be wrong, unless 1995hoo or someone knows otherwise.
I'm not aware of any prohibition on passing a moving school bus. Given that in Virginia they're restricted to slower speeds than other traffic (used to be 45 in a 55 zone and 55 in a 65, not sure if that's still the case), it's quite understandable why people would pass them.
The Virginia DMV manual is an imperfect source, though. For example, it says it's illegal to turn right on a red arrow in Virginia. That's wrong. It's legal unless a sign prohibits it. The statute doesn't distinguish between red arrows and red ball indicators.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks it seems like many drivers have forgotten either that you're allowed to pass on two-lane roads (when permitted by the lines, of course) or how to do it. I know at least on the East Coast it's often more difficult to pass than it used to be due to increased traffic and seemingly fewer passing zones, with the latter perhaps being a result of the former
More or less. There are still plenty of two-lane roads where legally you can pass, but common sense indicates you'd better not try it. I even find this to be the case on some of the most desolate sections of FL 52 between US 41 and west of I-75, or FL 50 in Sumter County, or even the roads of Ocala National Forest. Not that I haven't had and used the opportunity to pass on two lane roads before, I got used to the idea of avoiding the opportunity on NY 112 before I was old enough to drive.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 05:09:19 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 04:29:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 22, 2015, 12:44:04 PM
I do remember cars passing school buses on VA 156 in Prince George County when I was younger. Though I am pretty sure that it is against the law.
Quote from: corco on November 22, 2015, 12:46:07 PM
Really? Definitely allowed out here if they aren't stopped - but then we're probably dealing with much more rural areas.
I think the saying is "Do not pass when red lights flash"; ergo, you may pass when red lights aren't flashing.
Yes I was talking about when not stopped. I should have clarified that and I am unsure where I heard that from but it may be the case in VA.
EDIT: I did not find anything in VA's DMV Manual on it. So I may be wrong, unless 1995hoo or someone knows otherwise.
I'm not aware of any prohibition on passing a moving school bus. Given that in Virginia they're restricted to slower speeds than other traffic (used to be 45 in a 55 zone and 55 in a 65, not sure if that's still the case), it's quite understandable why people would pass them.
The Virginia DMV manual is an imperfect source, though. For example, it says it's illegal to turn right on a red arrow in Virginia. That's wrong. It's legal unless a sign prohibits it. The statute doesn't distinguish between red arrows and red ball indicators.
Petersburg a few years ago had tried to say that a red arrow was an automatic no right turn on red, but they had to put up a sign on Wagner Rd at US 301 (S Crater Rd) for that reason.
Around here there's just so much more volume on the 2-lanes than there used to be. I don't spend much time in the flatter areas to the west and north of Columbus and much more time in the hilly stuff these days where it's tough to pass.
From my routine observation driving around the Northeast–NY, New England and the Mid-Atlantic–I would say no, there is no shortage of drivers ready willing and able to pass on a two-lane. Yes, the opportunities to do so are fewer and shorter here than they are in the West, but I'd say that the majority of drivers who come up behind me, and seem like they're just itching to pass at any given opportunity, will in fact do so once that opportunity presents itself.
Don't know why my observation seems to differ from so many of you out there, but that seems to happen to me a lot anyway, so it's not too surprising. I seem to have developed a knack for not sharing the experience of things said to be widespread, despite having ample exposure to the same situations.
I do think it's a lost art. I had to practically teach myself just because of the lack of opportunities here in the East to actually pull out and pass, but even when those opportunities present themselves, I still find myself behind a line of cars far too frequently.
Love doing it, though. There's something satisfying about blowing by some slowpoke.
There was once in western Kansas where I tried to pass a pickup; they sped up. It was in a pretty desolate area. We got up to over 80 mph, but the guy was just trying to impress the girl he had with him. He eventually let us around.
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The most ridiculous passing zones I'm aware of are on KY 122 between Minnie and Wheelwright. They're about 50 feet long with curves on either end. I think there are only two along that stretch, if that, if I remember correctly.
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 10:17:29 AM
There was once in western Kansas where I tried to pass a pickup; they sped up. It was in a pretty desolate area. We got up to over 80 mph, but the guy was just trying to impress the girl he had with him. He eventually let us around.
Shit, they don't need to impress anyone around here to do that crappola. That's just FIB SOP: speed up when they try to pass, slow down in the no passing zone.
In my area: Most Indiana drivers seem to just want to tailgate, but they are reluctant to pass. Most Illinois drivers seem to tailgate, but have no problem with passing.
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Based on my experiences New Mexico seems to have the best drivers. They don't tailgate, but they're willing to pass you when they get a chance. I'm honestly considering moving to either New Mexico or Texas pretty soon.
I overtake vehicles on two lane highways fairly regularly. I will note however that traffic signals are often great equalizers of traffic. I'm less inclined to overtake a vehicle on a two lane highway if I feel as though they are just going to catch up with me again and again at each red traffic signal that I reach. Before passing on a busy road, I'm also inclined to scan the road ahead to see if I am just going to catch up with more traffic in a minute or two, negating the benefiting of passing. This might be true of other drivers in the heavily populated northeast as well. I'm much more inclined to pass on a very rural highway with limited traffic signals, and lighter traffic.
One of the unique things about driving in Ontario is that the centre-line stripe of a road is not legally enforceable. It is therefore legal (though not recommend) to pass on a double yellow centre-line. This can be useful when passing very slow moving farm equipment, in areas where it would not otherwise be recommended to pass. I know that most other jurisdictions in North America do not have the same legal standards associated with line striping.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
I guess what I don't understand, and what prompted me to start this thread, is–it seems like tailgating has become the accepted way to express displeasure with the speed of the vehicle ahead of you. So if you want to go faster and you can legally pass the guy, and you clearly have space to do so (as others have noted, at night it's especially easy to see oncoming headlights), why wouldn't you do it? Why would you continue to tailgate for 10 or 15 miles? It makes no sense at all to me to drive like that.
I actually encountered someone like that drving back from the Watertown roadmeet. I was going up NY 56 at night and there was this guy behind me tailgating and constantly flashing his brights, and yet passing zone after passing zone went by and he never passed. Then I was approaching the traffic light for the S curve, which was red, and a double yellow line, and THEN he passed. To get to a red light one car length ahead. When it turned out that the other cars were going no faster than I was in the first place. :spin:
Quote from: empirestate on November 22, 2015, 10:01:34 PM
From my routine observation driving around the Northeast–NY, New England and the Mid-Atlantic–I would say no, there is no shortage of drivers ready willing and able to pass on a two-lane. Yes, the opportunities to do so are fewer and shorter here than they are in the West, but I'd say that the majority of drivers who come up behind me, and seem like they're just itching to pass at any given opportunity, will in fact do so once that opportunity presents itself.
Don't know why my observation seems to differ from so many of you out there, but that seems to happen to me a lot anyway, so it's not too surprising. I seem to have developed a knack for not sharing the experience of things said to be widespread, despite having ample exposure to the same situations.
Oddly enough, it seems like whenever someone's behind me, they pass a decent amount of the time. When they're in front and behind someone else who I would like to also pass, they almost never do.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks it seems like many drivers have forgotten either that you're allowed to pass on two-lane roads (when permitted by the lines, of course) or how to do it. I know at least on the East Coast it's often more difficult to pass than it used to be due to increased traffic and seemingly fewer passing zones, with the latter perhaps being a result of the former (I hypothesize that perhaps some of the shorter passing zones may have been eliminated as traffic increased), and certainly we've all had the bad luck of encountering situations where someone comes the other way every time you hit a passing zone so you're just plain stuck, but that's not what I'm getting at.
Yesterday we took a football trip to Charlottesville and our route uses a couple of segments of two-lane highway (VA-20 between Wilderness and Orange; VA-231/22 between Gordonsville and Shadwell). We all know that successful passing on a two-lane road often requires that you pull up somewhat close to the vehicle ahead of you as you approach a passing zone, especially if you're on a road that doesn't have a lot of them. Multiple times yesterday I saw people tailgating slow vehicles as if they were waiting to pass, yet then not passing when they finally reached a passing zone and instead continuing to tailgate (which then caused me to pull out and pass two or three people at once). This isn't the first time I've observed this sort of thing and it makes me wonder whether people on the East Coast spend so much less time on two-lane roads than was the case in the past that maybe they don't know how to pass or are afraid to do it? (Ms1995hoo doesn't especially like it when I pass on that sort of road either, although she concedes that it's damn annoying when you get stuck behind someone who can't hold a consistent speed and is doing 60 in a 55 zone one minute and 40 in the same 55 zone a minute later.)
I am personally familiar with that road (Va. 20) even though I did not attend UVa, but have been to professional meetings near the lawn area. Certainly there are areas where passing is safe and appropriate.
My method is usually to allow some distance between me and the vehicle I want to pass, and then downshift and floor it, until I have completed the pass and am back in my lane.
When I am in rural Nebraska or Iowa, either I pass vehicles all the time, or my parents, when I'm with them, get passed all the time. So it's not lost here. I suspect, however, that people who never leave Omaha may have never learned it in the first place. I suspect it's possible that since the majority of long distance travel is done on interstates and other divided highways that people may have forgotten it.
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 10:17:29 AM
I do think it's a lost art. I had to practically teach myself just because of the lack of opportunities here in the East to actually pull out and pass, but even when those opportunities present themselves, I still find myself behind a line of cars far too frequently.
Love doing it, though. There's something satisfying about blowing by some slowpoke.
There was once in western Kansas where I tried to pass a pickup; they sped up. It was in a pretty desolate area. We got up to over 80 mph, but the guy was just trying to impress the girl he had with him. He eventually let us around.
...
The most ridiculous passing zones I'm aware of are on KY 122 between Minnie and Wheelwright. They're about 50 feet long with curves on either end. I think there are only two along that stretch, if that, if I remember correctly.
That's a funny story. But yes, as vdeane said I just can't think to pass in certain situations when I could turn into a pancake coming around a corner.
Quote from: jwolfer on November 22, 2015, 03:30:20 PM
I like to have the road clear in front of me if possible. You don't have to worry about the car slamming on brakes etc.
That's interesting. I prefer to have the whole road to myself, of course, but if given a choice between having someone in front of me or someone behind me, I would prefer they be in front of me. I feel I have more control keeping myself from rear-ending them than them rear-ending me.
Part of the problem, I think, is a lost art of courtesy on the part of the passee. If I notice that someone is about to pass me, I will take my foot off the gas and move over to the right edge of the lane in order to allow them to get past me as quickly as possible. But this requires attentiveness, something all too many drivers lack. If I go to pass someone, I usually do not get this same courtesy. They just keep puttering along as they were and seemingly don't react to my passing them at all.
Because of this, while I will gladly pass someone who is being a real slowpoke, I am usually unwilling to pass someone who is going only maybe 5 mph slower than I'd like. I have to assume they will continue to drive the same speed when I pass them and will either need a LOT of space or to gun it up to really high speed in order to get around them. Such extra space is rarely available on roads in the northeast so I usually end up following 2 seconds behind these drivers until one of us turns off or I get a passing lane to work with.
Which, incidentally, is another stupid thing too many drivers do: stay to the left when an auxiliary lane appears and just keep puttering along doing 55. Makes them even more difficult to pass!
Quote from: Duke87 on November 25, 2015, 12:35:43 AM
Which, incidentally, is another stupid thing too many drivers do: stay to the left when an auxiliary lane appears and just keep puttering along doing 55. Makes them even more difficult to pass!
Although my experience is anecdotal, it's the minority of times where a slowpoke doesn't move into the auxiliary lane...
...which is interesting to me since on four-lane Central Avenue in Albany, slowpokes insist on staying in the left lane. Maybe Central Avenue needs "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs.
Just saying that it's odd that people will move over for auxiliary lanes but less so if the road is just typically four-lane.
Quote from: SectorZ on November 22, 2015, 12:01:46 PM
Quote from: SignGeek101 on November 22, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
I think some people are just uncomfortable with doing it, like myself. Unless there's a semi kicking up rocks in front of you, most of the time, what's the rush anyway?
I get concerned with people who are "uncomfortable" about doing it. People who are uncomfortable doing lawful things on roadways may not be 100% fit to drive. Given how many are simultaneously tailgating while doing it are creating a higher risk of an accident.
And, I see this constantly in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, some people or either too lazy to pass, too scared, or literally aren't skilled enough of a driver to do it without ending up in the woods.
I am one of the many that take exception to this characterization. Lots of folks are uncomfortable with all manner of city driving, reasonably so, but around here we're used to it. Same goes for passing on two-lane roads–it's not done around here, and with the little amount I need to do it, you're damn right it's not comfortable. Not being comfortable with something does not mean one can't do it.
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2015, 01:53:30 PMThe "rush" is that driving slower than the speed I'm accustomed to for given roadway conditions feels physically painful.
This is a fascinating paraesthesia. Where does the pain from this annoyance occur, specifically? There are people who would love to study this.
Quote from: Rothman on November 25, 2015, 08:04:15 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on November 25, 2015, 12:35:43 AM
Which, incidentally, is another stupid thing too many drivers do: stay to the left when an auxiliary lane appears and just keep puttering along doing 55. Makes them even more difficult to pass!
Although my experience is anecdotal, it's the minority of times where a slowpoke doesn't move into the auxiliary lane...
...which is interesting to me since on four-lane Central Avenue in Albany, slowpokes insist on staying in the left lane. Maybe Central Avenue needs "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs.
Just saying that it's odd that people will move over for auxiliary lanes but less so if the road is just typically four-lane.
I think it depends on area. In Vermont, everyone goes to the climbing lane unless passing someone. In many parts of NY, particularly the further west one goes, the opposite is true: nobody moves over, and the climbing lane is used only by trucks who can't get up the hill and people passing on the right. Albany seems to be a mix.
Regarding Central Ave, it's probably to avoid right turning traffic. I find that even trying to go the speed limit on that road requires constant lane changes to dodge cars.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 25, 2015, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2015, 01:53:30 PMThe "rush" is that driving slower than the speed I'm accustomed to for given roadway conditions feels physically painful.
This is a fascinating paraesthesia. Where does the pain from this annoyance occur, specifically? There are people who would love to study this.
Mainly my head, but also my hands as I tend to grip the steering wheel harder when stressed/frustrated.
In California, it's pretty hard to pass on two-lane roads now. I was just on the Maricopa Highway the other day (CA-33/CA-166) and wanted to pass a slow truck in front of me. Couldn't do it, because there were many other (speeding) trucks coming towards me. When I finally did pass, it was many miles later.
Quote from: Quillz on November 25, 2015, 11:04:03 PM
In California, it's pretty hard to pass on two-lane roads now. I was just on the Maricopa Highway the other day (CA-33/CA-166) and wanted to pass a slow truck in front of me. Couldn't do it, because there were many other (speeding) trucks coming towards me. When I finally did pass, it was many miles later.
When I make trips to Las Vegas from the S.F. Bay Area, I quite frequently pass slow trucks (and some cars) on CA-46 between I-5 and CA-99 and on CA-58 in the Hinkley area. Passing on that section of CA-58 will become a distant memory once the new Hinkley Bypass is opened later next year.