It's that time of year again.... when I ask "Are you working Thanksgiving?" If you don't believe me, see this thread from 2014 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14048.0) and 2013 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10941.0).
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed. That, of course, doesn't include the visible people who will be working the casinos, restaurants, movie theaters, and in the stadiums for those three football games including the traditional Detroit Lions game. (I checked, no NHL or NBA games on Thursday).
I can understand some of the feeling. Up until a few years ago, "everything" non-essential except for hospitality and gas stations shut down for Thanksgiving. After gorging oneself on Thanksgiving, some people would then shop on Friday. And, then, the Black Friday sales came.
Now, part of it is the profit motivation. If the retail establishments didn't see the profit motivation, they wouldn't do it. Many of the workers are low-skill, low-wage, and they are just a resource. Part of me want to tell these workers that if you don't want to work holidays, get the skills so that you don't work a job that has you working holidays. But, then I turn around, and want to ask the upper management who make the decisions to be open on a holiday if they would like to be in the trenches working on Thanksgiving instead of being home on Thanksgiving. I think I see the trend when opening earlier simply means the peak traffic is shifted earlier. And, lets not forget the fights over a fourth-tier HDTV that will break down three days after the warranty ends.
And, for the record.... I am a highly-skilled technicians who works with European customers. This means I'm working Thanksgiving. Again. I need the money for a new roof on my home.
Some memes:
EMTs, paramedics, and nurses work every holiday (http://i.imgur.com/AVwWNC6.jpg)
If you don't want to work on Thanksgiving (http://m.memegen.com/dalglb.jpg)
Captain Kirk (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-exPm1TL6r80/VHz8EnohG-I/AAAAAAAAHxo/s7G8wCRhMsE/s1600/813%2BRetailers%2BTGiving.JPG)
Willie Wonka: Working at Walmart? (http://imgur.com/gallery/krHHMyA)
Thanksgiving with a pilot (http://i.imgflip.com/50j8j.jpg)
I am at my job. I work at a local fast food in a busy tourist area, so we need to be open.
I'll be working night audit Wednesday night into Thursday morning and again Thursday night. Then after a quick turn around, I'll be back Friday for 2nd shift, but then I'm off the weekend.
If I could work Thanksgiving and Christmas I would, simply because it would get me out of an awful lot of obligatory driving. Anyone needs me to cover a shift, say the word.
The past two years I had a job that had me working Thanksgiving and Christmas days. I didn't get that job this year, so while I could have picked up a fair amount of side work on the holidays anyway, I made a point not to work them this year. My wife is now in a work schedule where she only gets typical holidays off, so it would have been a drag for her to sit around home while I went off to work on Thanksgiving Day or Christmas. Next year, who knows, we may both be back to work on those days.
Another day I made sure to have off is December 18th. :D
I work in the hospitality industry, so there is a potential that I can work any holiday. But luckily, I have been with my place of employment for quite a while now, so I have thanksgiving off. I do work Wednesday night and Friday morning though.
As always, the last Thursday of November is just one more day for me. This year December 6th (Spanish Constitution day) is on a Sunday, and as we don't like to lose a holiday we will observe it the following day. And December 8th is also a holiday, so... :sombrero:.
Anyway, our sort of Thanksgiving is on August 15th, since it was usually around then when the harvest was finished. And up to this day a vast majority of the Spanish villages and towns still held their Summer festivals around that date.
On my eighth day of vacation. :nod:
Driving my semi, probably going to have a down day then. Not many places are open, but i needed the cash, so i am working thanksgiving but not christmas, i'd rather stay out over thanksgiving instead.
Heck no. Not working Friday, either. Haven't had to work either day in over a decade.
Not working on Thanksgiving, but I'm working on Friday. Since I'm in the corporate world though, I don't care since nothing will change.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 23, 2015, 12:40:56 PM
Not working on Thanksgiving, but I'm working on Friday. Since I'm in the corporate world though, I don't care since nothing will change.
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
I am off on Thanksgiving, but am working both Wednesday and Friday. I actully like working Friday, since therey's hardly anyone in the office and I can usually get caught up on stuff,
My wife is a respiratory therapist at a hospital. She works 6:30pm-7:00am Wednesday, Friday and Saturday nights this week.
We are closed Thursday and Friday. I don't go shopping Friday, but we do have Capitals tickets that evening.
On Saturday we had hoped to play golf but will instead be attending a funeral Mass.
Luckily I don't work Thursday, but I will be on Friday
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Despite my saying "never will at my current job" last year, there is a good chance I may actually be doing some work on Thursday since I'm in the midst of an unprecedented OT crush.
Won't interfere with any holiday plans, though, since I'm not on any particular shift and can do work whenever/wherever (well, wherever there is wifi I can use).
And I'm getting paid for the extra hours so I ain't complainin'.
Will be doing some work from home. I'm in Payroll, and I pay those people working in the stores on the holidays.
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
The things I do on a day-to-day basis will be no different on Black Friday than say last Friday.
Wednesday I'm loading oj in Orlando going to St Paul, MN. Consignee is a 24/7 operation so I'm hoping to do a drop & hook Saturday then head back to O town. I was just home last week so I will stay out until Dec 20-23 then stay home until Jan 2. I dont mind working any holiday except Christmas.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 23, 2015, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
The things I do on a day-to-day basis will be no different on Black Friday than say last Friday.
Hm. Then why go in?
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2015, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on November 23, 2015, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
The things I do on a day-to-day basis will be no different on Black Friday than say last Friday.
Hm. Then why go in?
Well, why not? When one is scheduled to work, one usually goes in. ;-)
I think all he's saying is, it won't be any great terror for him to show up at work Friday, since he works in (or for) an office and not in retail where it's sure to be a madhouse.
Quote from: empirestate on November 24, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2015, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on November 23, 2015, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
The things I do on a day-to-day basis will be no different on Black Friday than say last Friday.
Hm. Then why go in?
Well, why not? When one is scheduled to work, one usually goes in. ;-)
I think all he's saying is, it won't be any great terror for him to show up at work Friday, since he works in (or for) an office and not in retail where it's sure to be a madhouse.
Bingo. Plus I don't have vacation time because I'm still too new to be accruing any.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Apples and oranges in my book. This is coming from someone who used to have to work retail on Black Friday...(back when Black Friday didn't begin until 5am FRIDAY morning). Those people aren't dealing with the same animals retail workers have to encounter. Ticket takers and parking lot personnel at the stadium aren't being crushed by an impending stampede of humanity, looking to get the last Tickle Me Elmo or some other piece of crap that probably will be forgotten by Valentine's Day. Sure, there are some rude fans, but the day of the week doesn't matter.
Black Friday shoppers, on the other hand, that's a whole different ballgame.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 24, 2015, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 24, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 24, 2015, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on November 23, 2015, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
What do you mean by "nothing will change"?
The things I do on a day-to-day basis will be no different on Black Friday than say last Friday.
Hm. Then why go in?
Well, why not? When one is scheduled to work, one usually goes in. ;-)
I think all he's saying is, it won't be any great terror for him to show up at work Friday, since he works in (or for) an office and not in retail where it's sure to be a madhouse.
Bingo. Plus I don't have vacation time because I'm still too new to be accruing any.
Heh. I thought the lack of accruals might have something to do with it. I like the four-day weekend, even if I'm doing a whole lot of nothing on Friday. Beats being in the office. :D
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Apples and oranges in my book. This is coming from someone who used to have to work retail on Black Friday...(back when Black Friday didn't begin until 5am FRIDAY morning). Those people aren't dealing with the same animals retail workers have to encounter. Ticket takers and parking lot personnel at the stadium aren't being crushed by an impending stampede of humanity, looking to get the last Tickle Me Elmo or some other piece of crap that probably will be forgotten by Valentine's Day. Sure, there are some rude fans, but the day of the week doesn't matter.
Black Friday shoppers, on the other hand, that's a whole different ballgame.
Don't forget about the concession stand workers and other people. And I thought the argument was people working on Thanksgiving. Now we craft the response so that it's ok to work on Thanksgiving...as long as you're taking tickets and selling beers, because those people don't have families?
Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you said. But when we start to say it's ok for some people (that aren't essential personnel) to work on Thanksgiving, then we're losing track of what is supposedly the whole argument of working on Thanksgiving is about.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Apples and oranges in my book. This is coming from someone who used to have to work retail on Black Friday...(back when Black Friday didn't begin until 5am FRIDAY morning). Those people aren't dealing with the same animals retail workers have to encounter. Ticket takers and parking lot personnel at the stadium aren't being crushed by an impending stampede of humanity, looking to get the last Tickle Me Elmo or some other piece of crap that probably will be forgotten by Valentine's Day. Sure, there are some rude fans, but the day of the week doesn't matter.
Black Friday shoppers, on the other hand, that's a whole different ballgame.
Don't forget about the concession stand workers and other people. And I thought the argument was people working on Thanksgiving. Now we craft the response so that it's ok to work on Thanksgiving...as long as you're taking tickets and selling beers, because those people don't have families?
Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you said. But when we start to say it's ok for some people (that aren't essential personnel) to work on Thanksgiving, then we're losing track of what is supposedly the whole argument of working on Thanksgiving is about.
To me the big difference is the number of people and length of time affected. The NFL has games at 3 stadiums on Thanksgiving, forcing a couple hundred people in three different cities to work. Wal-Mart opens on Thanksgiving, and that's forcing hundreds of thousands of people in thousands of locations to work. Plus, those people working at the stadiums at least have the weekend off after working Thursday, so there's still some chance for family time. Very rare and lucky is a retail employee who gets any day off over the 4-day weekend.
Still, I blame all the selfish people who just can't wait until Friday to start shopping. If the demand weren't there, the stores wouldn't be open.
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 24, 2015, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Apples and oranges in my book. This is coming from someone who used to have to work retail on Black Friday...(back when Black Friday didn't begin until 5am FRIDAY morning). Those people aren't dealing with the same animals retail workers have to encounter. Ticket takers and parking lot personnel at the stadium aren't being crushed by an impending stampede of humanity, looking to get the last Tickle Me Elmo or some other piece of crap that probably will be forgotten by Valentine's Day. Sure, there are some rude fans, but the day of the week doesn't matter.
Black Friday shoppers, on the other hand, that's a whole different ballgame.
Don't forget about the concession stand workers and other people. And I thought the argument was people working on Thanksgiving. Now we craft the response so that it's ok to work on Thanksgiving...as long as you're taking tickets and selling beers, because those people don't have families?
Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you said. But when we start to say it's ok for some people (that aren't essential personnel) to work on Thanksgiving, then we're losing track of what is supposedly the whole argument of working on Thanksgiving is about.
To me the big difference is the number of people and length of time affected. The NFL has games at 3 stadiums on Thanksgiving, forcing a couple hundred people in three different cities to work. Wal-Mart opens on Thanksgiving, and that's forcing hundreds of thousands of people in thousands of locations to work. Plus, those people working at the stadiums at least have the weekend off after working Thursday, so there's still some chance for family time. Very rare and lucky is a retail employee who gets any day off over the 4-day weekend.
Still, I blame all the selfish people who just can't wait until Friday to start shopping. If the demand weren't there, the stores wouldn't be open.
There's approximately 2,500 part time people that work each game...on top of those that are employed on a more full-time basis for each team.
So for 3 games, that's 7,500 people working. A bit off your less-than-1,000 estimate.
Also, Walmart is hardly the first store to be open on Thanksgiving. Kmart has been open for years. Old Navy is opening even before Walmart. But hey, let's trash on Walmart.
Again, the one and only argument is supposed to be taking people away from their families for Thanksgiving. You continue to trivialize it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 23, 2015, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on November 23, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
Why do I bother? Because of all the "outrage" about the stores being open on Thanksgiving, and that the retail workers having to work the holiday instead of being with their families. Of course, we conveniently ignore the fact that there are plenty of "invisible" people who work Thanksgiving including police officers, firefighters, medical personnel, and lets not forget servicepeople who are currently deployed.
I don't think anyone ignores that these people work on Thanksgiving. My quibble is comparing essential service personnel to the cashier at Target making $7 an hour. The only purpose the local Target being open on Thanksgiving serves is so people with misplaced priorities can have their holiday crap sooner for a marginally lower price. Sure, I get that not everybody has families and some people would probably rather work than spend time with relatives but I stand by my point.
Then do you have a problem with all the people that are needed to work all aspects of football games, parades, and other events that occur on Thanksgiving? We focus on the players on the field, but there's numerous people that work the parking lots, concession stands, ushers, ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Apples and oranges in my book. This is coming from someone who used to have to work retail on Black Friday...(back when Black Friday didn't begin until 5am FRIDAY morning). Those people aren't dealing with the same animals retail workers have to encounter. Ticket takers and parking lot personnel at the stadium aren't being crushed by an impending stampede of humanity, looking to get the last Tickle Me Elmo or some other piece of crap that probably will be forgotten by Valentine's Day. Sure, there are some rude fans, but the day of the week doesn't matter.
Black Friday shoppers, on the other hand, that's a whole different ballgame.
Don't forget about the concession stand workers and other people. And I thought the argument was people working on Thanksgiving. Now we craft the response so that it's ok to work on Thanksgiving...as long as you're taking tickets and selling beers, because those people don't have families?
Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you said. But when we start to say it's ok for some people (that aren't essential personnel) to work on Thanksgiving, then we're losing track of what is supposedly the whole argument of working on Thanksgiving is about.
Since you brought it up, No, I don't think
anyone should have to work on Thanksgiving or any holiday for that matter, and should be able to spend time with whomever they want. But that's impossible in the world we live in. Different cultures, different holidays. In a perfect world, everyone would have all holidays off. But there are jobs that have to be covered 24/7/365 (fire, ems, police, defense, utilities...); retail is not one of them. Black "Friday" is completely artificial and a product of "civilized" society's greed. Personally, I've never understood why there are sporting events or movie premieres on major holidays.
The point I was trying to make is that the jobs encounter totally different types of clientele, thus are not directly comparable just because the tasks occur on the same day. An NFL (/NBA/NHL/insert your favorite sport here) game on Thanksgiving Day is by-and-large no different than working the game on the preceding or following Sunday. OTOH, mobs of shoppers on Black Friday are largely different than those going to shop on any other day of the year.
Retail on Thanksgiving and Black Friday is purely a corporate construct. There was no "demand" for doorbuster sales before Black Friday was invented. Just a few people who liked to take advantage of a four day weekend to get an early start on their Christmas shopping. Then some stores started asking "how can we get more". The answer? Sales. And it became a regular thing, because Thanksgiving and Christmas happen every single year (unlike, say, whatever random number generator tells Raymour and Flanigan to have their next "wall to wall" sale). Then more stores got into the game. It became a "thing". Sales became bigger and started earlier. And it just started inching backwards and backwards until it encroached on Thanksgiving. The "demand" was conveniently created by the businesses with the "supply".
Unlike emergency workers, there's no reason why retail workers, stadium workers, etc. should NEED to work a holiday.
Quote from: vdeane on November 24, 2015, 10:29:57 PM
Retail on Thanksgiving and Black Friday is purely a corporate construct. There was no "demand" for doorbuster sales before Black Friday was invented. Just a few people who liked to take advantage of a four day weekend to get an early start on their Christmas shopping. Then some stores started asking "how can we get more". The answer? Sales. And it became a regular thing, because Thanksgiving and Christmas happen every single year (unlike, say, whatever random number generator tells Raymour and Flanigan to have their next "wall to wall" sale). Then more stores got into the game. It became a "thing". Sales became bigger and started earlier. And it just started inching backwards and backwards until it encroached on Thanksgiving. The "demand" was conveniently created by the businesses with the "supply".
Unlike emergency workers, there's no reason why retail workers, stadium workers, etc. should NEED to work a holiday.
When I worked in retail an eon ago, "Black Friday" had a negative connotation. It was not celebrated, the stores didn't announce it, and opening time was the same as usual. Employee reaction was an exasperated eye-roll, like it usually was.
The day after Christmas, with the combo of clearance discounts and gift returns, was much worse then.
I recently heard an ad refer to "Black Friday Weekend." Funny, we used to refer to it as "Thanksgiving Weekend."
Nobody at A&P Stores.
Quote from: vdeane on November 24, 2015, 10:29:57 PM
Unlike emergency workers, there's no reason why retail workers, stadium workers, etc. should NEED to work a holiday.
Something else which hasn't really been touched on is that stores being open on Thanksgiving not only impacts the ability of the employees to be with their families, it also has an impact on the
customers and their families.
It isn't as simple as "stores wouldn't open if there weren't demand", there is a feedback loop. People who crave doorbusters will go to the store when there are doorbusters. If stores waited until Friday to open, many of the customers who are going for the doorbusters would spend Thanksgiving with their families and then go shopping Friday morning. The stores open on Thursday, and their families don't get to spend Thanksgiving with them because they deem the shopping to be more important.
Thing of it is, since many people have Thanksgiving off but need to work on Friday, there are people who couldn't partake in doorbusters without taking a day off. Somewhat ironically, the opening of stores on Thanksgiving is likely motivated in part by more potential customers having that day off from work.
Ultimately, it seems Thanksgiving's relevance as an actual holiday is on the decline, and I wouldn't be surprised if in a few decades it is reduced to what most American holidays are already treated as - a day off from work to do whatever with.
Part of this is that as the beginning of Christmas season keeps moving earlier, Thanksgiving gets drowned out and lost in it all.
Another part of it is that there is little tradition of substance to Thanksgiving other than it being a family gathering, so among a population that is increasingly superficially-minded, a lot of people are starting to care more about the shopping rush than anything else.
And then you have the simple fact that in a world that is growing increasingly smaller and more connected, a holiday which is celebrated in only one country faces difficulty remaining relevant compared to holidays which are celebrated internationally.
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 02:59:32 PMSince you brought it up, No, I don't think anyone should have to work on Thanksgiving or any holiday for that matter, and should be able to spend time with whomever they want. But that's impossible in the world we live in. Different cultures, different holidays. In a perfect world, everyone would have all holidays off. But there are jobs that have to be covered 24/7/365 (fire, ems, police, defense, utilities...); retail is not one of them. Black "Friday" is completely artificial and a product of "civilized" society's greed.
I avoid contributing to the Black Friday problem by simply not doing any shopping at all (except for dinner fixings and so on) during Thanksgiving week. But if the whole country followed my example, the US retail sector would be in a state of near collapse and GDP would likely be shaved by a percentage point or two.
Quote from: DaBigE on November 24, 2015, 02:59:32 PMPersonally, I've never understood why there are sporting events or movie premieres on major holidays.
They catch people when they have leisure due to time off work and, in many cases, relatives staying with them that they see so infrequently during the year that they are unwilling to take a chance on large blocks of unstructured time exposing latent personality clashes.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 24, 2015, 11:58:55 PMI recently heard an ad refer to "Black Friday Weekend." Funny, we used to refer to it as "Thanksgiving Weekend."
Amazon has been spamming me (and, I suspect, its entire US client base) with emails referencing "Black Friday Week."
Quote from: Duke87 on November 25, 2015, 12:07:58 AMAnother part of it is that there is little tradition of substance to Thanksgiving other than it being a family gathering, so among a population that is increasingly superficially-minded, a lot of people are starting to care more about the shopping rush than anything else.
And then you have the simple fact that in a world that is growing increasingly smaller and more connected, a holiday which is celebrated in only one country faces difficulty remaining relevant compared to holidays which are celebrated internationally.
My mother remembers that her parents (German-speaking farmers for whom English was a second language) never celebrated Thanksgiving, so I suspect the Thanksgiving-as-turkey-day concept has only relatively recently reached full penetration across a broad range of cultural groups.
The fixed menu (anything
but turkey is tantamount to armed rebellion) and the indigestion jamboree aspect of Thanksgiving also run counter to much of the current thinking about healthy eating--food should taste good, be in moderate quantity, and be fun both to fix and to eat--and for that reason alone I expect Thanksgiving either to fade or to undergo reinvention.
I don't mind Turkey. Never noticed the binge eating part, but then, being part Italian, EVERY holiday involves binge eating (also the weekly spaghetti "dinners" (read: lunches) we used to have on Sunday).
From Consumerist/Wall Street Journal:
Some Shopping Malls Forcing Stores To Open On ThanksgivingQuoteEveryone knows that a handful of major retailers now choose to open on Thanksgiving, but most smaller businesses have remained closed on the holiday – whether it was out of a desire to enjoy the day, or simply because the extra expense of paying people to work on Thanksgiving wasn't worth the few hours of additional sales. But now some shopping mall operators are spoiling the holiday for their smaller tenants by forcing them to open up on Thanksgiving.
Anchor stores in malls – like Sears, Macy's, and JCPenney, all of which will open at some point this Thanksgiving – generally have their own entrances and the ability to open and close without concern for the hours of their smaller mall family members.
The Wall Street Journal reports that some mall operators have now decided that since these stores are going to be open, everyone in the mall should be working too. In some cases, if a store remains shuttered on the holiday, it could face fines from their mall overlandlord.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1ap)
Corporate greed knows no limits.
Well today Wal Mart finally broke through that barrier of being open on Thanksgiving all day! They used to close early in the day and open up in the evening, but the one on Turkey Lake Road in Orlando was open this morning.
It was also crowded, so instead of the GP complaining about stores not observing holidays and letting families spend time together, we need to look at another angle. The fact it was crowded shows us that there is a demand for it and if we need to be mad at someone it should not be the owners, but the patrons who shop there instead! If we want to keep Thanksgiving a holiday for all then we need not to shop there on the days we think that are bad to be open and stop the demand.
Quote from: Zeffy on November 26, 2015, 09:36:13 AM
Corporate greed knows no limits.
No one is forcing you to shop on Thanksgiving. If people didn't want to be there, being open on Thanksgiving would have proven unprofitable years ago and the practice would have ended. But for some reason, people like to shop on Thanksgiving.
Some people think they don't have a choice because the deals are just "too good to pass up". And that's total horse shit. Sales exist at all retailers year round.
It's not that they like to shop on Thanksgiving, it's that they like the doorbuster sales. As for "sales exist year round", well, people don't do their Christmas shopping year round, and figuring out when something will be on sale the rest of the year is a crapshoot.
As for why people are so consumerist these days... blame advertising.
The supermarket I work at in Connecticut was open from 6 AM to 2 PM today. I had today off with pay (legal holiday). I have Friday off and hope to get to Philadelphia for an overnight trip. I will also be off on Saturday, which is more or less another paid day for me (we call it a personal holiday). :)
I used to work in the Electronics department at Walmart. I do NOT miss it (but the ending pay was better than my current rate). I worked 7 Black Fridays (2003 to 2009). Sales on Thanksgiving were in the planning stages then, but weren't implemented.
I may be wrong, but I believe Maine prohibits big-box stores from being open on this holiday. I wish we in Connecticut could do the same! SIGH!
I took possession of a work van and became available around noon today. Waited all day for a call. Finally after 8, work called. Now I'll be in a railroad yard for several hours overnight.
Quote from: roadman65 on November 26, 2015, 02:45:31 PM
Well today Wal Mart finally broke through that barrier of being open on Thanksgiving all day! They used to close early in the day and open up in the evening, but the one on Turkey Lake Road in Orlando was open this morning.
Quick question.... does that WalMart also sell groceries?
What increasingly annoys me about the whole Black Friday nonsense is how suddenly it seems that EVERYONE is offering "Black Friday sales". It's one thing for chain stores to use Black Friday to entice customers in with "while supplies last" deals (translation - only available to the first three or four people who make it in the door). But this year has seen a new low. In addition to the "Black Friday Month" some retailers started promoting in early November, you see car manufacturers - not dealers, but manufacturers, and even newspapers, offering Black Friday deals.
Hopefully, there will come a day where all the mid-1980s MBA graduates - the ones who were taught that the only thing that matters in business is short term profit, short term profit, and - yes - short term profit - will have finally retired and died off. Then perhaps we can get some people in there who have enough common sense to realize that they can make just as much, if not more, money by restricting the Christmas sales season instead of this folly of stretching it out another week or so every year.
So, how were those Black Friday sales? From Yahoo/Reuters:
Black Friday crowds thin in subdued start to U.S. holiday shoppingQuoteBargain hunters found relatively little competition compared with previous years. Some had already shopped Thursday evening, reflecting a new normal of U.S. holiday shopping, where stores open up with deals on Thanksgiving itself, rather than waiting until Black Friday.
Retailers "have taken the sense of urgency out for consumers by spreading their promotions throughout the year and what we are seeing is a result of that," said Jeff Simpson, director of the retail practice at Deloitte. Traffic in stores was light on Friday, while Thursday missed his expectations, he said.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1au)
Meanwhile, it's time for the Black Friday Fights. From CNet:
Your Black Friday mall brawl highlights
Technically Incorrect: As people rushed to get electronics, little seemed to have changed from previous years. There was pandemonium, and there were fights.QuoteIt's less a tradition than an affirmation of the human spirit.
Once the turkey has been dismembered, it's time to dismember a fellow member of the human race in the battle for electronic supremacy.
It often seems that, in Black Friday mall fights, electronics are involved. Last year, a TV was one of the fight prizes at Walmart.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1av)
From Business News Daily:
Happy Holiday? Thanksgiving Not a Day Off for All WorkersQuoteRather than celebrating Thanksgiving with some turkey, family and football, Thursday will be just another day of work for many, new research finds.
This year, 36 percent of employers will require at least some employees to work on Thanksgiving, up from 33 percent in 2014, according to a study from Bloomberg BNA.
The number of organizations with some employees on the clock is actually far fewer than it used to be. The research shows that Thanksgiving work shifts consistently exceeded 40 percent from the mid-1990s through the early 2000s, topping out at 48 percent in 2000.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1as)
From ABC 10 News San Diego:
Assemblywoman proposes double-time pay for retail employees working on ThanksgivingQuoteAssemblywoman Lorena Gonzalez, D-San Diego, said Wednesday she plans to make changes to her proposed legislation that would require paying retail employees double-time if they have to work on Thanksgiving.
Her original bill, introduced last December, would have mandated double-time pay for working specified "family holidays" unless they're covered by a collective bargaining agreement, work for a company with 25 or fewer employees, or is a first responder or other sort of emergency worker.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (Autoplay video) (http://markholtz.info/1at)
Quote from: roadman on November 27, 2015, 05:34:33 PMWhat increasingly annoys me about the whole Black Friday nonsense is how suddenly it seems that EVERYONE is offering "Black Friday sales".
ASDA (owned by Walmart) brought it to physical stores in the UK last year, with several big chains copying. ASDA themselves didn't bother this year (outside of a weekend-long discount on petrol), though a load of other places did. Most of them didn't really understand door-busters. It was a near total flop and Black Friday will be a very minor thing in the UK once more.
From Time:
Black Friday Sales Down More Than $1 BillionQuoteShoppers this year still wanted to get a head start on their holiday gift list on Black Friday – but overall were less willing to brave the crowds.
Sales on Thanksgiving and Black Friday both fell in stores this year, with a growing amount of people pursuing their discounts online instead.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1ax)
Now, hopefully, the B&M stores will consider being open on Thanksgiving a bad idea. If I had my way, the retail stores would be close at 7 PM on Thanksgiving Wednesday, and reopen at 6 AM on Black Friday. And, for goodness sales, drop those doorbusters where you have a good price on a fourth-tier TV that you only have three of in stock.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 24, 2015, 02:47:11 PM
There's approximately 2,500 part time people that work each game...on top of those that are employed on a more full-time basis for each team.
So for 3 games, that's 7,500 people working. A bit off your less-than-1,000 estimate.
Also, Walmart is hardly the first store to be open on Thanksgiving. Kmart has been open for years. Old Navy is opening even before Walmart. But hey, let's trash on Walmart.
Again, the one and only argument is supposed to be taking people away from their families for Thanksgiving. You continue to trivialize it.
Wasn't trashing on Walmart, just using them as an example of employment numbers. Retail and sports are still apples and oranges in terms of the number of people who have to work and the number of days off over the entire weekend. The people forced to work Thanksgiving sporting events at least get one or more days off the rest of the weekend in lieu of Thanksgiving. Very few retail workers get a full day off that weekend now that most stores are open on Thanksgiving.
Quote from: vdeane on November 26, 2015, 07:47:54 PMAs for why people are so consumerist these days... blame advertising.
Agreed. I blame others for all my worst behavior. Isn't that the American way?
There are well known psychological effects for how this stuff works. It's the same mechanism that makes people susceptible to propaganda and groupthink.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 30, 2015, 07:31:48 PMAgreed. I blame others for all my worst behavior. Isn't that the American way?
"I voted SPD in 1932. It is not my fault the country went to the dogs after 1933."
Quote from: vdeane on December 01, 2015, 01:26:48 PM
There are well known psychological effects for how this stuff works. It's the same mechanism that makes people susceptible to propaganda and groupthink.
I guess we are wired to take instruction from advertising, then.