Title says it all. Here's a good example in Hopewell, NJ:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3893984,-74.7613609,3a,19.4y,78.75h,72.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0GXtRmMwAXRT9R7iD3es0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
except further down that road (sorry for the blurriness, but that says 'STATE LAW YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS'):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3873018,-74.7654615,3a,21.7y,303.4h,80.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s98Y6ETJwL-ZxqytM2bzFzA!2e0!5s20110701T000000!7i13312!8i6656
So which is it? Stop or yield?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--0HtD8xw6--%2F18axpz2b39ip7jpg.jpg&hash=4103a364c188c5ac326638f9b684507be83a33b4)
Not my picture. Gotta love the Arial! :love:
Just found this by snooping around the internet a little. There are quite a few out there, but this struck me as funniest.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_-8ueNRWhLqY%2FTU4tMK8dLnI%2FAAAAAAAACNs%2FvOIWMeFY7Ow%2Fs1600%2FAmazing%2BFunny%2BRoad%2BSigns%2BPictures%2B%25252814%252529.jpeg&hash=328867c49f50f4171a9c04c1d19b89c70d9ea330)
(note: just realized this is a contradictory sign, not contradictory signs, so I guess I screwed up)
(https://i.imgur.com/45uz2Ed.jpg)
Is the speed limit 50 or 30? Or maybe 40?
Quote from: Zeffy on December 17, 2015, 09:48:40 PM
Title says it all. Here's a good example in Hopewell, NJ:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3893984,-74.7613609,3a,19.4y,78.75h,72.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0GXtRmMwAXRT9R7iD3es0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
except further down that road (sorry for the blurriness, but that says 'STATE LAW YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS'):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3873018,-74.7654615,3a,21.7y,303.4h,80.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s98Y6ETJwL-ZxqytM2bzFzA!2e0!5s20110701T000000!7i13312!8i6656
So which is it? Stop or yield?
Sign simply wasn't updated for the new law.
Technically, the sign isn't needed anyway, since it's state law to stop for peds in any crosswalk.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2015, 08:42:26 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on December 17, 2015, 09:48:40 PM
Title says it all. Here's a good example in Hopewell, NJ:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3893984,-74.7613609,3a,19.4y,78.75h,72.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0GXtRmMwAXRT9R7iD3es0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
except further down that road (sorry for the blurriness, but that says 'STATE LAW YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS'):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3873018,-74.7654615,3a,21.7y,303.4h,80.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s98Y6ETJwL-ZxqytM2bzFzA!2e0!5s20110701T000000!7i13312!8i6656
So which is it? Stop or yield?
Sign simply wasn't updated for the new law.
Technically, the sign isn't needed anyway, since it's state law to stop for peds in any crosswalk.
Not technically needed, but still very helpful reminder that people may be crossing at this point.
They also make crosswalks more visible.
An old favorite of mine. This was taken at the rest area on US 78/I-22 entering Mississippi from Alabama. (Yeah, I know what they probably meant by this, but I still find it funny anyway)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5667/23452442384_58451d58c1_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/747/22472989562_cedaa069b0_b_d.jpg)
While yellow speed advisory placards are not official speed limit signs (do you hear that Massachusetts municipalities?); this GSV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9597745,-75.4328788,3a,75y,158.88h,79.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shCn2hyg8g0hLUu0zVAX0Ig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) of Providence Rd. in Edgmont Twp., Delaware County, PA shows a SPEED LIMIT 40 sign just after an all-way Stop with a 35 MPH curve advisory posted shortly thereafter (click to follow).
I would've posted the SPEED LIMIT 40 sign after the cruve.
Quote from: mrsman on December 30, 2015, 06:59:01 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2015, 08:42:26 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on December 17, 2015, 09:48:40 PM
Title says it all. Here's a good example in Hopewell, NJ:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3893984,-74.7613609,3a,19.4y,78.75h,72.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0GXtRmMwAXRT9R7iD3es0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
except further down that road (sorry for the blurriness, but that says 'STATE LAW YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS'):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3873018,-74.7654615,3a,21.7y,303.4h,80.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s98Y6ETJwL-ZxqytM2bzFzA!2e0!5s20110701T000000!7i13312!8i6656
So which is it? Stop or yield?
Sign simply wasn't updated for the new law.
Technically, the sign isn't needed anyway, since it's state law to stop for peds in any crosswalk.
Not technically needed, but still very helpful reminder that people may be crossing at this point.
Probably makes it more enforceable too. Also, there's no contradiction. You can yield and stop at the same time.
Quote from: riiga on December 18, 2015, 04:58:24 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/45uz2Ed.jpg)
Is the speed limit 31 or 19? Or maybe 25?
Fixed :sombrero:.
Here in Spain we have a rule that says if two contradictory signs are in place, the most restrictive prevails. Aplying that rule, speed limit would be 30 km/h (19 mph).
A similar case near Seymour, MO:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22923468820_0d75125b0a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3)Which speed limit? (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3) by CTRoads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135847145@N08/), on Flickr
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 15, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
A similar case near Seymour, MO:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22923468820_0d75125b0a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3)Which speed limit? (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3) by CTRoads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135847145@N08/), on Flickr
That's not really contradictory though. The right sign is telling you that if nothing else is posted, the limit is 25. However, the sign on the left overwrites that and has a limit of 35.
No different than here: https://goo.gl/maps/1rBBFSQBVTU2
It says the limit is 50 by default (if there's nothing posted), but there's a sign ahead that says the limit on this road is 70 (just past the bridge).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2FTN%2520Trip%25202012%2520SLR%2520091_zps0xt4wmfa.jpg&hash=b41f4e2efbf563fe52b1d94bb0e3de16fa35b460) (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/Brian5561/media/TN%20Trip%202012%20SLR%20091_zps0xt4wmfa.jpg.html)
South Pittsburg, TN.
There are a lot of TDOT sign errors in this area. They are not very smart lol.
Quote from: Brian556 on January 15, 2016, 08:01:19 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2FTN%2520Trip%25202012%2520SLR%2520091_zps0xt4wmfa.jpg&hash=b41f4e2efbf563fe52b1d94bb0e3de16fa35b460) (http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/Brian5561/media/TN%20Trip%202012%20SLR%20091_zps0xt4wmfa.jpg.html)
South Pittsburg, TN.
There are a lot of TDOT sign errors in this area. They are not very smart lol.
Are the traffic lights new there? Sometimes when new lights are installed, someone forgets to remove the old stop sign.
Here is an interesting piece in Union, NJ.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8366/8500844534_1ca5cf6083_z.jpg)
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Alright, I'll give you button copy before you guys puke. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9336494,-77.648193,3a,15y,56.62h,88.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS5GoYYomA65ZYAENn1okRw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Quote from: roadman65 on January 15, 2016, 08:51:09 PM
Here is an interesting piece in Union, NJ.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8366/8500844534_1ca5cf6083_z.jpg)
How is this contradictory, by chance?
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 15, 2016, 09:19:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 15, 2016, 08:51:09 PM
Here is an interesting piece in Union, NJ.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8366/8500844534_1ca5cf6083_z.jpg)
How is this contradictory, by chance?
Turn left to get on NJ 82 west. You can't turn left.
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
There's two No Left Turn signs. One's at the very left of the shot, and there's one under the stop sign.
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 16, 2016, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
There's two No Left Turn signs. One's at the very left of the shot, and there's one under the stop sign.
Except they don't contradict each other
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 15, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
A similar case near Seymour, MO:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22923468820_0d75125b0a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3)Which speed limit? (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3) by CTRoads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135847145@N08/), on Flickr
This setup is extremely common in North Carolina and main thoroughfares often are posted at a higher speed limit than the city-defined default...
Mike
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 17, 2016, 12:13:39 AM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on January 15, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
A similar case near Seymour, MO:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22923468820_0d75125b0a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3)Which speed limit? (https://flic.kr/p/AVELD3) by CTRoads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/135847145@N08/), on Flickr
This setup is extremely common in North Carolina and main thoroughfares often are posted at a higher speed limit than the city-defined default...
Mike
Very common in Missouri also. The town I live in has this setup too. Instead of having to post speed limit signs on every little street, they just post a blanket limit like this when you enter (30 in my town, 25 in most other places I've seen them) and higher limits for the highways through town.
Quote from: cl94 on January 17, 2016, 12:05:29 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 16, 2016, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
There's two No Left Turn signs. One's at the very left of the shot, and there's one under the stop sign.
Except they don't contradict each other
They both relate to the same intersection, despite being placed at different places.
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 17, 2016, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: cl94 on January 17, 2016, 12:05:29 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 16, 2016, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
There's two No Left Turn signs. One's at the very left of the shot, and there's one under the stop sign.
Except they don't contradict each other
They both relate to the same intersection, despite being placed at different places.
Yes, but the point is they don't contradict each other, they more or less just emphasize the prohibition on the left turn. If anything, this would go in the redundancy thread.
And personally, I kinda like a no left turn sign to the left, since a potential left turner is probably looking left.
Quote from: kj3400 on January 17, 2016, 01:50:18 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 17, 2016, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: cl94 on January 17, 2016, 12:05:29 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 16, 2016, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 16, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 15, 2016, 09:02:46 PM
Thanks. That was totally needed. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335424,-77.6482545,3a,75y,214.14h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfYi2Nco_7Bky4BeDJomv4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Don't see a problem there.
There's two No Left Turn signs. One's at the very left of the shot, and there's one under the stop sign.
Except they don't contradict each other
They both relate to the same intersection, despite being placed at different places.
Yes, but the point is they don't contradict each other, they more or less just emphasize the prohibition on the left turn. If anything, this would go in the redundancy thread.
Ugh, it's 3 AM, and now I noticed my brain failed...yup.
It was 9 AM (CET :sombrero:) when you posted. Anyway, why you were awake at that hour?
Back to contradictory signs, this one is in my area. Are Huesca and Zaragoza to the left or to the right?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B5TcJeuIUAEWbfz.jpg)
And an explanation. Since this part of N-330 was built in the early 90s, from this point one turned left in order to enter the road Southbound towards Huesca. Recently, and as part of the upgrade to A-23 freeway, they built a new access to the right, but the one to the left is still open and will be closed later (notice that the sign is patched). As of last Christmas, the right access was blanked out.
This setup (https://goo.gl/maps/NeSiamVzf4L2) in SW Pennsylvania, where destination signs point you through a restricted turn. The same is true for the opposite turn (https://goo.gl/maps/87kH6mMQQKy).
(Sorry for dashcam quality)
Saw this on my way home from Seattle yesterday. Hwy 99 near Federal Way. They're doing some construction work, and they have to close the right lane from time to time, so the middle lane sometimes becomes the right lane (and also an option lane). They usually cover up the incorrect sign, but this time, they just left both up. Sigh...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAIiA7Wp.png&hash=d253ddd6a20da8935c602bcb2ad58bd14eff9aa0)
A U-turn lane and a divided crossroad, with signs for both mounted on the same post:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvqLhqkX.jpg&hash=8516f37efd5f3dbd5bef387ede0174b2524357e2)
Come on, WSDOT...https://goo.gl/EvHocq (I get the point of the sign, but it's probably best if no sign was used at all).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FF0sTP4N.png&hash=c7882ed437f8dd07941d0f9d37ab70dddd7ec8ad)
Bump warning!
I realize this is a very old thread, but I'm bumping because I found something that fits perfectly. In fact, I was considering starting a new thread with the exact same title, and was pleasantly surprised to find that this already existed.
Absolute craziness on Allegany CR 27 (the image is mine, taken in 2019; Street View here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.504644,-78.0821595,3a,69.6y,315.63h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3yu9VR_D3N6TTwT-rcD1Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)):
(https://imgur.com/K2bQA4M.jpg)
^^ 55 is regulatory, 20 is advisory, so 55 holds.
With that I would move the 55 sign to the end of the curves.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 02:33:02 PM
Bump warning!
I realize this is a very old thread, but I'm bumping because I found something that fits perfectly. In fact, I was considering starting a new thread with the exact same title, and was pleasantly surprised to find that this already existed.
Absolute craziness on Allegany CR 27 (the image is mine, taken in 2019; Street View here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.504644,-78.0821595,3a,69.6y,315.63h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3yu9VR_D3N6TTwT-rcD1Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)):
(https://imgur.com/K2bQA4M.jpg)
Go over 55, and you can get a speeding ticket. But you might want to slow down on the curves.
Similar to this (https://goo.gl/maps/Qado5PCG2GPYbQ9F9)
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 03:04:53 PM
Go over 55, and you can get a speeding ticket. But you might want to slow down on the curves.
Similar to this (https://goo.gl/maps/Qado5PCG2GPYbQ9F9)
Might want to slow down? Imagine if you didn't? 30 and 45 are at least in the same ballpark. 20 and 55 are not in the same ballpark. 55 is the second-highest limit in the entire state, and 20 is the second-lowest.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 03:46:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 03:04:53 PM
Go over 55, and you can get a speeding ticket. But you might want to slow down on the curves.
Similar to this (https://goo.gl/maps/Qado5PCG2GPYbQ9F9)
Might want to slow down? Imagine if you didn't? 30 and 45 are at least in the same ballpark. 20 and 55 are not in the same ballpark. 55 is the second-highest standard limit in the entire state, and 20 is the second-lowest.
Yeah, but |Big John|'s point still stands: if your car can handle the G-forces at 55 mph, it's perfectly legal.
The 55 sign basically says "you're not in Wisco anymore, so the default state speed limit applies from this point forward". The 20 sign says "watch out for tight curves ahead".
See NY, where the rural speed limit is 55. Same thing. No biggie.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 03:52:02 PM
The 55 sign basically says "you're not in Wisco anymore, so the default state speed limit applies from this point forward". The 20 sign says "watch out for tight curves ahead".
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
My point is that 20 mph is significantly lower even than the previous speed limit of 35 mph, so if the advisory speed really needs to be 20 mph, then it's irrelevant whether the default state limit applies, and 55 mph should not be posted until after the curves. Alternatively, 55 mph could be posted far enough in advance that you could reach that speed and then slow down for the curves, but that's obviously not practical for this location.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2021, 04:02:52 PM
See NY, where the rural speed limit is 55. Same thing. No biggie.
Yes, the location in question is in NY...
Quote from: SignGeek101 on December 17, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--0HtD8xw6--%2F18axpz2b39ip7jpg.jpg&hash=4103a364c188c5ac326638f9b684507be83a33b4)
Not my picture. Gotta love the Arial! :love:
There's technically nothing wrong with this. No Stopping signs legally exclude stopping to avoid conflicting with other traffic, at the direction of an officer, or in compliance with a traffic control device. So it's perfectly okay to post a STOP sign right along with a No Stopping sign.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 03:52:02 PM
The 55 sign basically says "you're not in Wisco anymore, so the default state speed limit applies from this point forward". The 20 sign says "watch out for tight curves ahead".
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
My point is that 20 mph is significantly lower even than the previous speed limit of 35 mph, so if the advisory speed really needs to be 20 mph, then it's irrelevant whether the default state limit applies, and 55 mph should not be posted until after the curves. Alternatively, 55 mph could be posted far enough in advance that you could reach that speed and then slow down for the curves, but that's obviously not practical for this location.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2021, 04:02:52 PM
See NY, where the rural speed limit is 55. Same thing. No biggie.
Yes, the location in question is in NY...
Heh. If only I squinted at the sign...
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
Irrelevant. The 55 mph speed limit begins
right at the sign. The 20 mph advisory is required to be posted
in advance of the condition to which it applies. Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
My point is that 20 mph is significantly lower even than the previous speed limit of 35 mph, so if the advisory speed really needs to be 20 mph, then it's irrelevant whether the default state limit applies, and 55 mph should not be posted until after the curves. Alternatively, 55 mph could be posted far enough in advance that you could reach that speed and then slow down for the curves, but that's obviously not practical for this location.
But the 35 mph zone is for the populated place you just left–as evidenced by the fact that it's referred to by signage as a
speed zone (https://goo.gl/maps/DPY8gF4UU1Yq6BNq9).
Now I'm curious to know if a speed study is required for posting an advisory tab, same as it would be for posting a lower regulatory speed limit. Anybody know?
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
Irrelevant. The 55 mph speed limit begins right at the sign. The 20 mph advisory is required to be posted in advance of the condition to which it applies. Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
Not in NY regarding where the state speed limit starts, but your conclusion is correct. :D
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
Irrelevant. The 55 mph speed limit begins right at the sign. The 20 mph advisory is required to be posted in advance of the condition to which it applies. Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
Not in NY regarding where the state speed limit starts, but your conclusion is correct. :D
So where
does a speed limit officially begin in NY? Is it one of those places that requires every speed limit to be legislatively defined and therefore the placement of the sign is legally irrelevant?
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:31:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:13:50 PM
If the signs were in the reverse order, then yes.
Irrelevant. The 55 mph speed limit begins right at the sign. The 20 mph advisory is required to be posted in advance of the condition to which it applies. Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
Not in NY regarding where the state speed limit starts, but your conclusion is correct. :D
So where does a speed limit officially begin in NY? Is it one of those places that requires every speed limit to be legislatively defined and therefore the placement of the sign is legally irrelevant?
Usually at the boundary of a municipality, but then you may see a reassurance sign somewhere. Doesn't change the fact that the state speed limit on rural roads is 55 mph and a lot of roads are unsigned in that regard. This case looks like one of those rare reassurance instances.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Irrelevant. The 55 mph speed limit begins right at the sign.
Actually, if there's an "END XX MPH LIMIT"
before the 55 sign, then it would start there unless another limit is posted. Doesn't apply in this situation, but you get my point.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
So I guess the question is, in the context of the previous 35 mph limit, why post the 55 mph speed limit before the curves? "We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph" makes no sense.
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2021, 04:34:35 PM
Usually at the boundary of a municipality, but then you may see a reassurance sign somewhere. Doesn't change the fact that the state speed limit on rural roads is 55 mph and a lot of roads are unsigned in that regard. This case looks like one of those rare reassurance instances.
Hmmm. In my experience, it seems like there's almost always a 55 mph reassurance sign (or an "END XX MPH LIMIT") at the end of a speed zone. Whereas it would be unsigned in cases where the adjacent roads are also 55 mph or if its 55 from end to end.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:51:15 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Ergo, no matter which order the signs are in, the speed limit on that stretch is 55 mph, but the curves are advised to be taken at 20 mph.
So I guess the question is, in the context of the previous 35 mph limit, why post the 55 mph speed limit before the curves? "We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph" makes no sense.
At the end of the day, it's probably just sloppy placement. It's similar to putting a speed limit sign just before a stop sign or a signal. Or like putting a speed limit sign one block away from the end of the street. It's not technically wrong... it's just illogical.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:51:15 PM
"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"
Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs. The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.
I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.
The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 05:57:26 PM
I'm extremely saddened
Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 05:57:26 PM
I'm extremely saddened
Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.
Dramatic opinions only, please.
I say "saddened" because we finally find a good example of a state not nannying drivers, and a roadgeek thinks it's bizarre. They finally got to one of us...
Here's another one that's a bit misleading at first sight but is just another victim of sloppy placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1848815,-95.3876132,3a,75y,196.97h,86.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3zY4HJJA-vGbH1SPGWfxVQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The 55 mph sign is for the curve in the road ahead, not the exit, but it looks like it could be for it. But when you get up close to the exit, it has an advisory speed of 10 mph:
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1838372,-95.3875944,3a,40.8y,195.45h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdkZDbrcaiRzk-K-xB9YkAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 05:57:26 PM
I'm extremely saddened
Wow, I'm only mildly bemused.
Dramatic opinions only, please.
I say "saddened" because we finally find a good example of a state not nannying drivers, and a roadgeek thinks it's bizarre. They finally got to one of us...
Well, would you look at that. Yet another example of roadgeeks obsessing over the smallest things that no one else pays any attention to. :clap:
The NY MUTCD advises to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign where the speed limit increases to the statutory 55 mph, but a lower speed is advised by conditions like adverse alignment. Then the "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 MPH" sign is supposed to be used at the end of the adverse condition, but a lot of regions usually omit that sign.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 04:22:32 PM
Now I'm curious to know if a speed study is required for posting an advisory tab, same as it would be for posting a lower regulatory speed limit. Anybody know?
I believe advisory tabs are just calculated according to a (usually rather conservative) formula.
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 09, 2021, 06:08:30 PM
I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.
Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 09, 2021, 06:08:30 PM
I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.
Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?
The curve advisory, not the exit advisory.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 05:57:26 PM
I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.
The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.
"Nanny"? Come on. In what context could it possibly even be relevant to the motorist? If we're giving the state the benefit of the doubt that 20 mph is the correct advisory speed, there is absolutely no reason for the 55 mph sign.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 05:36:08 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:51:15 PM
"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"
Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs. The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.
contradictoryadjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent
.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on March 09, 2021, 06:25:01 PM
The NY MUTCD advises to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign where the speed limit increases to the statutory 55 mph, but a lower speed is advised by conditions like adverse alignment. Then the "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 MPH" sign is supposed to be used at the end of the adverse condition, but a lot of regions usually omit that sign.
Now now, don't go spoiling all our fun with such a simple and obvious solution. ;-)
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 07:32:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 09, 2021, 06:08:30 PM
I would prefer to see the curve advisory sign placed after the gore point to avert any confusion. It should be obvious, but it's a little murkier than it needs to be.
Kind of late by that point to slow down from 60 to 10 mph, though, don't you think?
The curve advisory, not the exit advisory.
D'oh! Geez, I'm not interpreting things very well lately...
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 07:44:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 05:36:08 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 04:51:15 PM
"We advise that you slow down to 20 mph, but you may now speed up to 55 mph"
Yes, that is the correct interpretation of those signs. The two clauses in your sentence are not contradictory.
contradictory
adjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent
.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.
No.
You are 100%
allowed to speed up to 55 mph: "You
may now speed up to 55 mph."
It is also
recommended that you slow down to 20 mph: "We
advise that you slow down to 20 mph.
Both things are true. They are not mutually opposed or inconsistent.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 07:44:17 PM
contradictory
adjective - mutually opposed or inconsistent
.. so it's a textbook example of contradictory.
No.
You are 100% allowed to speed up to 55 mph: "You may now speed up to 55 mph."
It is also recommended that you slow down to 20 mph: "We advise that you slow down to 20 mph.
Both things are true. They are not mutually opposed or inconsistent.
What you're saying is that they're not
mutually exclusive, because they can both be true at once.
They're still contradictory, though (opposed to one another and inconsistent with each other) because it is not possible to do both things at once.
If they can both be true at once, they're not contradictory.
Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target. So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland). It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?"). And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit (also remember that, legally speaking, it's not permissible to accelerate for a higher limit until after you pass the sign! I know someone who got a ticket for doing the typical "accelerate to match the new limit before the first sign is passed").
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?
No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:12:57 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?
No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.
That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2021, 08:59:16 PM
If they can both be true at once, they're not contradictory.
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target. So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland). It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?").
I get what you're saying. In this context, however, it's a little different because this is the
first 55 mph sign coming out of a 35 mph zone. That's why the "END XX MPH LIMIT" would be my preference (and apparently the state's preference too, so this must have been an oversight).
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:15:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:12:57 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:10:50 PM
So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?
No. 50 and 55 are the only ones I'm aware of, and those are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter. Besides, there would be a 55 mph sign past the curves.
That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.
Is 40 a statewide default, though?
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:21:37 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:10:50 PM
That road would have a default of 40 in Massachusetts.
Is 40 a statewide default, though?
Yes, since the road is not divided (divided roads are 50). In addition, if the road considered is thickly settled (which is defined based on density of houses, and there's no clear cut way to figure out if it is or not if it's borderline), it's 30 instead of 40.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 07:44:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 05:57:26 PM
I'm extremely saddened that webny99 would rather NYSDOT be a nanny state like so many others.
The signs are not contradictory; how fast I should go and how fast I can go are not the same thing. Be glad New York doesn't nanny you guys and wait until after those curves to remind you that the 35 zone had ended like tons of other states likely would.
"Nanny"? Come on. In what context could it possibly even be relevant to the motorist? If we're giving the state the benefit of the doubt that 20 mph is the correct advisory speed, there is absolutely no reason for the 55 mph sign.
"Nanny" meaning deceptive practices that intentionally undermine the reasonable decision making of the general motoring public. If the limit increases to 55 but they specifically choose to not post it because they fear drivers may ignore the advisory limit, that's nannying. NYS did
not do that here, ergo they are not nannying drivers into going 20 when they could legally go much faster than that
if they want.
From looking at street view: could I take that first corner at 55? Not sure. But I could probably take it at 40 or more. 20 is too low. But the point is I can make that decision on my own, and the state lets me make that decision. Bravo.
Quote from: 1 on March 09, 2021, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
And no, I would not support holding back the speed limit increase because of the curve. Heck, what happens if you get curve after curve with varying advisory speeds, all below 55? Would you have us be like MA, with constantly varying low limits because they refuse to use advisory limits? If I'm going around that curve, assuming no further obstacles on the other side, I'd like to begin accelerating as soon as possible - not wait for where the sign is because you'd rather a nanny limit ...
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
So I need to memorize default limits for every state I drive in?
Well, technically, you need to know every law of the state you're in. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. If you made a left on red in 5 specific states, the cop doesn't care that your state may allow it.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
To me, that's splitting hairs. "END XX MPH LIMIT" means the same darned thing in New York as the sign that's actually there.
Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2021, 10:34:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 09:08:34 PM
The appropriate solution would be to use the "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign. I'm OK with that. I'm not saying 55 mph is unacceptable, I'm saying it's irrelevant and potentially confusing until you get past the curves.
To me, that's splitting hairs. "END XX MPH LIMIT" means the same darned thing in New York as the sign that's actually there.
If the entire stretch was in a 55 mph zone, there would be no need for a sign. However, it's the end of a speed zone, so a sign is needed, at least according to some, so that you can theoretically start speeding up while also slowing down for the curves.
For that purpose, it's better for drivers to be thinking "this is the end of the speed zone" than "this is the time to speed up to 55".
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 10:13:25 PM
"Nanny" meaning deceptive practices that intentionally undermine the reasonable decision making of the general motoring public. If the limit increases to 55 but they specifically choose to not post it because they fear drivers may ignore the advisory limit, that's nannying. NYS did not do that here, ergo they are not nannying drivers into going 20 when they could legally go much faster than that if they want.
From looking at street view: could I take that first corner at 55? Not sure. But I could probably take it at 40 or more. 20 is too low. But the point is I can make that decision on my own, and the state lets me make that decision. Bravo.
If 20 is too low (which I tend to agree with), then that's a completely separate issue, and perhaps even more of a "nanny" one than the posting or non-posting of 55 mph.
In this case, I don't think it really matters, because the previous limit of 35 mph is reasonable - still almost double the advisory speed! But, if you insist that a sign should be present, I would prefer "END XX MPH LIMIT" for the reasons outlined in the previous post and upthread.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 10:52:46 PM
For that purpose, it's better for drivers to be thinking "this is the end of the speed zone" than "this is the time to speed up to 55".
What?! That's ridiculous. Stop nannying people.
"The speed limit is 55" and "20 is the recommended speed for this curve" are two entirely different pieces of information. Having both allows a driver to choose the speed that works best for them. If someone sees a "State Speed Limit 55" (not even a speed limit for this road in particular, but for the whole state, it says so right on the sign!) sign and immediately floors it to get up to 55 despite being midway through a curve, they kind of deserve what happens next.
What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2021, 11:09:15 PM
What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.
Not even close. Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison. Directions are a guide for where to go, while speed limits are a guide for how to get there. Individual drivers can only have one destination at a time, while there can be any number of laws and advisories guiding their driving behavior.
Once again, if this didn't
happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 11:28:37 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2021, 11:09:15 PM
What you are arguing is like saying a sign at a crossroad that lists two destinations in opposing directions is irrelevant and potentially confusing because someone might try to go to both of them at once.
Not even close. Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison. Directions are a guide for where to go, while speed limits are a guide for how to get there. Individual drivers can only have one destination at a time, while there can be any number of laws and advisories guiding their driving behavior.
No, it's not. A speed limit sign and an advisory speed sign are a guide for how fast to operate the vehicle. Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.
Note that in Oklahoma, which doesn't have "End XX speed limit" as part of its standard sign book (because there is no legal assumption that the default speed limit applies if there is no signage saying so), there would be no other
option but to post it in the way NYSDOT did here.
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 11:28:37 PM
Once again, if this didn't happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.
... because, in your mind, drivers cannot handle being fed two speed-related numbers.
Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 11:38:10 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 11:28:37 PM
Once again, if this didn't happen to be the end of a 35 mph zone, we wouldn't have any reason to be discussing this, because there would be no 55 mph sign. Just replace the 55 mph sign with an "END XX MPH LIMIT" sign to indicate the end of the speed zone, and the case is closed.
... because, in your mind, drivers cannot handle being fed two speed-related numbers.
Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?
Not for nothing, but 30,000 people died on the roads last year, many of them ignoring very basic signs and signals.
So, it stands to reason, that your fellow motorists are not all Mensa members.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2021, 11:30:28 PM
Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.
The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior. Speed is something that actively fluctuates throughout a trip that the driver has immediate control over. The speed limits and advisory speeds exist as a guide to regulate driver speeds, primarily for safety reasons. Directions, meanwhile, are a constant. They exist primarily to aid motorists in finding their destination, and do not actively fluctuate during a trip. Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 11:38:10 PM
Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?
I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an awareness that posting the two messages so close together is in poor taste and should be avoided. Most people that notice the two signs are probably thinking about the huge variance between the two and how laughable it is, while very few are thinking about the freedom they've been granted to choose their speed or the difference between a regulatory and an advisory sign.
This really isn't representative of the majority, though. I've driven on many roads in my state and for the most part, END XX MPH LIMIT signs or the beginning of 55 zones are posted where it would be okay to accelerate to and maintain 55, for at least a couple hundred or perhaps thousand feet before the next curve.
NY-35 examples of an END 45 MPH LIMIT and/or 55 sign right before a straightaway that later approaches a curve:
https://goo.gl/maps/dRAkURVDCHQGzKQj9
https://goo.gl/maps/G2YcfKCGrjrwxkY37
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2021, 11:30:28 PM
Individual drivers can only have one speed at a time, and they must choose that speed the same way someone chooses a destination–by taking all the relevant information the road agency imparts and making a decision from there.
The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior.
Sure they are. I just directly compared them.
Quote
Speed is something that actively fluctuates throughout a trip that the driver has immediate control over. [...] Directions, meanwhile, are a constant. They exist primarily to aid motorists in finding their destination, and do not actively fluctuate during a trip.
So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?
QuoteDrivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).
Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the speed limit signage for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).
Quote from: webny99 on March 09, 2021, 11:28:37 PM
Directions to speed limits is an apples to oranges comparison.
Regulatory signage to warning signage is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
What speed am I allowed to go? Anything under 55 mph.
How tight are these curves? Tight enough that we recommend 20 mph around them.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 04:15:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 12:14:46 AM
The two things are not directly comparable in terms of their function and impact on driver behavior.
Sure they are. I just directly compared them.
The comparison was in the context of a speed limit sign and an advisory sign
vs two arrows pointing in different directions.
It seems to me that arrows pointing in opposite directions could not possibly be interpreted as applying to the same motorist - who only has one destination - while a speed limit sign and advisory sign
must be interpreted as applying to the same motorist - whose speed will vary and who will use both for guidance. So you'll have to remind me again how those are directly comparable...
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 04:15:22 AM
So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?
No, I said directions, not destinations. Barring something unforeseen, I-35 northbound will always go to Wichita, and NY 98 northbound will always go to Albion.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 04:15:22 AM
QuoteDrivers may not need to actively pay attention to the directions for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).
Drivers may not need to actively pay attention to the speed limit signage for any number of reasons (they're familiar with the route, or they're using GPS, for example).
Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if you know where you're going. Ignoring the speed limit could be dangerous for you and your passengers, or get you a speeding ticket.
Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 09:46:19 AM
Regulatory signage to warning signage is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Even better: now the comparison is two bananas
to one apple + one orange.
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 10:18:58 AM
Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if you know where you're going.
Ignoring the speed limit sign is of no consequence if you already know the speed limit.
Wait a minute, why are we arguing about this again?
Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 10:34:57 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 10:18:58 AM
Ignoring the directions is of no consequence if A you know where you're going.
Ignoring the speed limit sign is of no consequence if B you already know the speed limit.
A = Does not affect your driving behavior
B = Affects your driving behavior
Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 10:34:57 AM
Wait a minute, why are we arguing about this again?
Because I found an old image on my phone, searched "contradictory signs" to find a good thread to post it to, and the rest is history.
Before I went to bed last night, I spent a good 30 minutes wandering around Google Maps to see if I could find a direct comparison to the NY example.
All told: I found nothing. But that's not to my surprise, as I already stated before that most states would likely take measures to "hide" the increased limit until after a set of curves. New York chose to post it right where it begins. There's really nothing wrong with that because drivers are not going to floor it to 55 right into the woods.
vdeane's post on the last page makes a great point:
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2021, 09:01:37 PM
Legally speaking, a speed limit is supposed to be a speed limit - not a target. So "you're legally permitted to go up to 55 but we advise you go 20" is not contradictory (unlike, say, the laws of Alanland). It's only when you start thinking of the speed limit as a target that things start to look problematic ("how can I do 55 and 20 at the same time?").
55 is not the target: the "target" is whatever you want, up to 55. The warning sign suggests 20, but you may go any speed up to 55.
Ostensibly, the two contradict each other, but they do not actually contradict because one states a warning about curves and suggests a speed, and the other indicates the maximum limit from this point forward. They do not rule each other out: they are, in fact, complimentary.
I would go so far as to say that the states hiding the limit until after the curves are part of the problem when it comes to speed limit perception. Nanny limits like that are part of what cause people to view speed limits as a minimum rather than the maximum they're supposed to be (though NMSL definitely did not help). Honestly, I wish we could go back to having the limit be the limit rather than the current system where people assume the limit is a minimum and states post artificially low limits on the idea that "everyone will just go 10-20 mph faster anyways".
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 04:15:22 AM
So if I were to set out on a trip to Orleans County right now, I could expect that the northbound control on I-35 will be "Albion", and I can just follow that all the way to Orleans County since destinations are a constant?
No, I said directions, not destinations.
I said destinations in my original post. You're the one who changed it to directions.
In any event, you're the only person here who views this as contradictory.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
So, it stands to reason, that your fellow motorists are not all Mensa members.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 01:57:43 PM
In any event, you're the only person here who views this as contradictory.
What remains unclear is which side of this argument is proving |jeffandnicole|'s point.
Somewhere I have (wish I could find it) a picture of an old-style Los Angeles "RTD" bus stop sign, with a "Buses Excepted" plaque right below it. (Lake Ave, Pasadena, c. 1980)
The "Buses Excepted" was probably intended to go on the next signpost, which had a "Right Lane Must Turn Right" sign, but it was funnier this way.
Quote from: vdeane on March 10, 2021, 12:58:48 PM
I would go so far as to say that the states hiding the limit until after the curves are part of the problem when it comes to speed limit perception. Nanny limits like that are part of what cause people to view speed limits as a minimum rather than the maximum they're supposed to be (though NMSL definitely did not help).
I actually take the opposite view: Most regular motorists would see these two signs posted together and lose any semblance of respect they had for
either sign.
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
You can be ticketed for all sorts of things. Doesn't make it illegal to do what you did.
Did you try to fight the ticket?
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
As in, you were ticketed yourself?
Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 02:03:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
So, it stands to reason, that your fellow motorists are not all Mensa members.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2021, 01:57:43 PM
In any event, you're the only person here who views this as contradictory.
What remains unclear is which side of this argument is proving |jeffandnicole|'s point.
Oh, I don't think it's unclear at all. This entire discussion is proof that us roadgeeks tend to be much more exacting and technical about this stuff than the general population.
Case in point: the semantics of whether or not the signs are "contradictory" are not on my side, but I think the vast majority of drivers
would see these signs as contradictory, in large part because they're not familiar with the difference between regulatory and advisory, and thus would view each sign as telling them to do something contrary to the other. That is not the technically correct view, as we have established, but I strongly believe it's the view most people would have.
See also:
Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2021, 12:14:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 09, 2021, 11:38:10 PM
Why do you insist that drivers are this stupid?
I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an awareness that posting the two messages so close together is in poor taste and should be avoided. Most people that notice the two signs are probably thinking about the huge variance between the two and how laughable it is, while very few are thinking about the freedom they've been granted to choose their speed or the difference between a regulatory and an advisory sign.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2021, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
As in, you were ticketed yourself?
My mother was (remember, I don't drive). It was on an exit ramp.
The policeman didn't show up to court, so it was dismissed immediately.
Suppose you are in the middle of a long stretch of 55 mph. Are you saying any advisory sign in that stretch, maybe 20 mph, is contradictory with the 55 mph sign you passed 2 miles back?
If not, then what does the closeness of the signs do to make it contradictory?
Certainly you are given different information by the signs. But because one is regulatory and the other is advisory, that doesn't make them contradictory. Just different info for different reasons.
Quote from: GaryV on March 10, 2021, 03:22:06 PM
Suppose you are in the middle of a long stretch of 55 mph. Are you saying any advisory sign in that stretch, maybe 20 mph, is contradictory with the 55 mph sign you passed 2 miles back?
If not, then what does the closeness of the signs do to make it contradictory?
Certainly you are given different information by the signs. But because one is regulatory and the other is advisory, that doesn't make them contradictory. Just different info for different reasons.
If they're two miles apart, the second one would normally overwrite the first. Not the same situation.
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 03:25:33 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 10, 2021, 03:22:06 PM
Suppose you are in the middle of a long stretch of 55 mph. Are you saying any advisory sign in that stretch, maybe 20 mph, is contradictory with the 55 mph sign you passed 2 miles back?
If not, then what does the closeness of the signs do to make it contradictory?
Certainly you are given different information by the signs. But because one is regulatory and the other is advisory, that doesn't make them contradictory. Just different info for different reasons.
If they're two miles apart, the second one would normally overwrite the first. Not the same situation.
If they're ten yards apart, the second one still overrides the first. Same situation.
("Override" or "overwrite" is not the correct word anyway, as we've already established the signs have different meanings.)
I nominare jakeroot for Forum Nanny.
I came across a few today...
Newton, MA Rest Area on I-95, https://goo.gl/maps/HgJthdJBqXLf2NYs6
You can argue the sign is for walking to the entrance, but driving in a lot you don't quickly interpret it that way. Also, you can see that sign from far away but can't see the do not enter until on top of it
Taunton, MA on Myles Standish Blvd, one of the busiest heavy industrial roadways in the state
First sign, https://goo.gl/maps/eXCQ22jK1ezC3YTG6
Second sign a few hundred feet later, https://goo.gl/maps/yva6hArBpbJ2Ktey5
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 03:02:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2021, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
As in, you were ticketed yourself?
My mother was (remember, I don't drive). It was on an exit ramp.
The policeman didn't show up to court, so it was dismissed immediately.
My understanding is that a court told MA that they couldn't enforce advisory limits, to which MA responded by replacing their advisory limits with regulatory ones.
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2021, 05:35:40 PM
I nominare jakeroot for Forum Nanny.
I second.
Mods/Admin: Can you make a custom plaque for him? Kind of like [DOT Employee], except [Forum Nanny].
Quote from: vdeane on March 10, 2021, 08:57:21 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 03:02:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 10, 2021, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
As in, you were ticketed yourself?
My mother was (remember, I don't drive). It was on an exit ramp.
The policeman didn't show up to court, so it was dismissed immediately.
My understanding is that a court told MA that they couldn't enforce advisory limits, to which MA responded by replacing their advisory limits with regulatory ones.
Just like with the EZ-Pass lanes (then Fast Lane). Years ago they had speed limit signs (of 15 MPH) that were yellow instead of white. Someone won in court over the definition of the color of the sign, and instantly after they switched the signs to white ones.
Something I found on the Lake Ontario State Parkway: commercial vehicles prohibited (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2498267,-77.6149976,3a,51.4y,313.74h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQp_Sjf1E3QwEpx5hgBu6fg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and then commercial vehicles must exit (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2504393,-77.6165577,3a,48.8y,319.61h,85.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.20813%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). It seems to me like it would be easier to have them exit at Latta like the second sign says rather than have them turn right onto Lake and then left a block or two later like the first sign requires.
Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2021, 09:36:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 10, 2021, 05:35:40 PM
I nominare jakeroot for Forum Nanny.
I second.
Mods/Admin: Can you make a custom plaque for him? Kind of like [DOT Employee], except [Forum Nanny].
With an outline of Mary Poppins for the icon.
Quote from: vdeane on March 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Something I found on the Lake Ontario State Parkway: commercial vehicles prohibited (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2498267,-77.6149976,3a,51.4y,313.74h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQp_Sjf1E3QwEpx5hgBu6fg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and then commercial vehicles must exit (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2504393,-77.6165577,3a,48.8y,319.61h,85.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.20813%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). It seems to me like it would be easier to have them exit at Latta like the second sign says rather than have them turn right onto Lake and then left a block or two later like the first sign requires.
The first sign could really be relocated to the other side of the Latta Rd. exit, since the Latta Rd. bridge itself isn't a hazard for any commercial vehicles that make it that far.
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 02:34:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
Something I found on the Lake Ontario State Parkway: commercial vehicles prohibited (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2498267,-77.6149976,3a,51.4y,313.74h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQp_Sjf1E3QwEpx5hgBu6fg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and then commercial vehicles must exit (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2504393,-77.6165577,3a,48.8y,319.61h,85.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D8NrHQC3ajOm8tNKI1BbnqQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.20813%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). It seems to me like it would be easier to have them exit at Latta like the second sign says rather than have them turn right onto Lake and then left a block or two later like the first sign requires.
The first sign could really be relocated to the other side of the Latta Rd. exit, since the Latta Rd. bridge itself isn't a hazard for any commercial vehicles that make it that far.
I swear I remember a brief period where there was also a "commercial vehicles must exit" sign prior the Greenleaf Road exit (yep, there were three).
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
(https://i.imgur.com/EWZxtNE.jpg)
She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4624725,-97.6012635,3a,17.9y,176.86h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8t38zEEErBk8OtTWDRNHVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
(https://i.imgur.com/Q2mMzHL.png)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
[img snipped]
Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer:
[img snipped]
Yikes. I am not a fan of the painted turn arrows being used in advance of the "no left turn" intersection, or really
any other intersection than the one it's for.
The left turn lane opening up prior to the over/underpass is something I've noticed is common in other states, but it's somewhat rare here in NY. There were only two examples that immediately came to mind, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that both are signed similar to how KDOT does it:
here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0873111,-77.6367904,3a,75y,21.03h,89.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfh_MbzHhwyDEw3Zvr2qkyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) and
here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1268114,-77.4935289,3a,75y,313.82h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqiimTlLg0CNgqKDVnExVyQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) (notably, these are both one-off interchanges; I can't think of any examples on our actual freeway network).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
[img]
She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4624725,-97.6012635,3a,17.9y,176.86h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8t38zEEErBk8OtTWDRNHVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
[img]
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way. I found a MoDOT (St Louis) example (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6310458,-90.3464434,3a,75y,142.16h,81.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEm9V5TSSL3UjudEaWeJKcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)with the 2 left lanes marked as lanes to get onto I-64 E, but not as left turn lanes until past the first signals set.
Here's an Ohio example (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1633638,-84.5096722,3a,51.6y,93.25h,91.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s22MybiZYBkUtMuj67dd-gA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), similar to your Kansas example.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:11:11 AM
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way.
Well, as you can see, it certainly confused my wife (who I am proud to say is a pretty sharp woman). But, I mean, remember, this is ODOT we're talking about; is it any wonder they did something confusing?
Here is another NY example of this kind of left turn-lane.
https://goo.gl/maps/251BfYFvrc7dUtr69
Notice how the I-684 ramp is signed as "SECOND LEFT" instead of an overhead lane arrow:
https://goo.gl/maps/BQFQu3o86bgtxzo7A
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 12, 2021, 12:15:11 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:11:11 AM
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way.
Well, as you can see, it certainly confused my wife (who I am proud to say is a pretty sharp woman). But, I mean, remember, this is ODOT we're talking about; is it any wonder they did something confusing?
Oh, it gets worse. Forget the painted arrows. Just look at the signs themselves.
(https://i.imgur.com/SJHo2Xl.png)
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:11:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
[img]
She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4624725,-97.6012635,3a,17.9y,176.86h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8t38zEEErBk8OtTWDRNHVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
[img]
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way. I found a MoDOT (St Louis) example (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6310458,-90.3464434,3a,75y,142.16h,81.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEm9V5TSSL3UjudEaWeJKcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)with the 2 left lanes marked as lanes to get onto I-64 E, but not as left turn lanes until past the first signals set.
Here's an Ohio example (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1633638,-84.5096722,3a,51.6y,93.25h,91.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s22MybiZYBkUtMuj67dd-gA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), similar to your Kansas example.
Here's one from Maryland that instantly came to mind upon seeing these: I-270 exit 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0293764,-77.1263697,3a,48.8y,341.41h,87.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb1sua1XVopILNqX-f0CqFA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
The most recent streetview makes it look like MDOT SHA is content to let the left-turn arrows gradually fade out, and the use of 2 "NO Left/U-turn" signs makes me wonder if somewhere along the way, drivers have attempted to turn left at the first light.
I imagine the "Left 2 Lanes" verbiage on the ground-mounted sign was chosen intentionally (overhead signage upstream says "Keep Left" rather than "Next Left"), but I wonder if "Left at Second Signal" would be better? I seem to recall seeing something like that on a sign elsewhere, but can't remember where.
(Update: found an example of this from MD 97 @ MD 200 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1126286,-77.075441,3a,75y,7.32h,83.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI_HnPiW-3QKmVQN5a271eA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) - different situation here, but IMHO would also be good verbiage to use at these situations being discussed in the last couple posts)
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 11:28:13 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
[img snipped]
Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer:
[img snipped]
Yikes. I am not a fan of the painted turn arrows being used in advance of the "no left turn" intersection, or really any other intersection than the one it's for.
The left turn lane opening up prior to the over/underpass is something I've noticed is common in other states, but it's somewhat rare here in NY. There were only two examples that immediately came to mind, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that both are signed similar to how KDOT does it: here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0873111,-77.6367904,3a,75y,21.03h,89.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfh_MbzHhwyDEw3Zvr2qkyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) and here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1268114,-77.4935289,3a,75y,313.82h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqiimTlLg0CNgqKDVnExVyQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) (notably, these are both one-off interchanges; I can't think of any examples on our actual freeway network).
There's a few. I-90 at Everett Road, Main Street/Corinth Road at I-87, and Elmwood Avenue at I-590 come to mind.
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2021, 12:38:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 11:28:13 PM
The left turn lane opening up prior to the over/underpass is something I've noticed is common in other states, but it's somewhat rare here in NY. There were only two examples that immediately came to mind, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that both are signed similar to how KDOT does it: here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0873111,-77.6367904,3a,75y,21.03h,89.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfh_MbzHhwyDEw3Zvr2qkyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) and here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1268114,-77.4935289,3a,75y,313.82h,91.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqiimTlLg0CNgqKDVnExVyQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) (notably, these are both one-off interchanges; I can't think of any examples on our actual freeway network).
There's a few. I-90 at Everett Road, Main Street/Corinth Road at I-87, and Elmwood Avenue at I-590 come to mind.
Ah, yes. Forgot about that sneaky partial interchange. Arrows are in use there, but quite contrary to the Oklahoma example, they tell you to go straight at the first intersection instead of turning left,
as shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1267565,-77.5541277,3a,75y,66.33h,70.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szFnUFQg7ICXaHAtd4-kORA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) (note the traffic signal as well as the arrows on the pavement).
With regards to Washington State's preferences: exit-only markings are the preferred style, or solid lines. Turn arrows are not used before the first signal. More often, straight arrows are used, with no arrows in the through lanes:
Union Ave @ WA-16, Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/Cz3a2cigeceV4yms5)
NE 4th St @ I-405, Bellevue (https://goo.gl/maps/Xx9xwJTCJJfYpdKE6)
NE 40th St @ WA-520, Redmond (https://goo.gl/maps/ooQJqt3hW4yvgiHr8)
So 277th @ WA-167, Kent (https://goo.gl/maps/YGxwGr7beg9ejxnR7)
There is this non-interchange example in Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/tr2ZCpYW8ANYfBVy5) that is marked in advance with a left turn arrow, but it should be pretty clear that you turn left at the second signal.
Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2021, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 10, 2021, 02:52:03 PM
Based on personal experience, you can be ticketed for advisory speeds in Massachusetts.
You can be ticketed for all sorts of things. Doesn't make it illegal to do what you did.
Did you try to fight the ticket?
I can't answer for him, but the below is a true story:
Back in the Fast-Lane days when the then-Massachusetts Turnpike Authority posted
15 MPH speed advisory signs at the Mass Pike (I-90) toll booths instead of the standard
SPEED LIMIT 15 signs, one motorist indeed got pulled over by the State Police & was ticketed for speeding through the booths; however, the motorist just happened to be a highway sign contractor who knew the MUTCD cover-to-cover.
Given the type of sign used, he challenged the ticket in court & won (ticket dismissed) on the MUTCD grounds that a speed advisory panel is not the same as a speed limit sign. Needless to say, the State Trooper who cited the driver was not amused as the judge's decision. Nonetheless, all the speed advisory panels on the tollbooths were replaced with conventional speed limit signs within a month.
Now if only the local municipalities would get on board & replace their stationary advisory signs with actual speed limit signs.
Yeah, I once received an e-mailed apology from the deputy chief of police in Glen Ellyn (IL) for a local police officer having told me what I was doing was illegal (hitchhiking from the sidewalk). Never assume that the police officer actually knows the law.
Quote from: PHLBOS on March 13, 2021, 03:10:34 PM
Now if only the local municipalities would get on board & replace their stationary advisory signs with actual speed limit signs.
You LIKE having advisory signs replaced with regulatory limits? I consider that to be a reason why driving in MA sucks. Those advisory signs have to be set for the lowest common denominator; if I can go faster, why shouldn't I be allowed to? If someone goes too fast, driving too fast for conditions is still illegal and enforceable, regardless of what type of sign it is or even the number on the sign (driving below the speed limit in a snow storm could still count, for example).
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:11:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
[img]
She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4624725,-97.6012635,3a,17.9y,176.86h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8t38zEEErBk8OtTWDRNHVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
[img]
This is my first time seeing left turn lane markings before the first intersection (the one that disallows left turns) in a diamond interchange, and going to say outright that it will confuse people that way. I found a MoDOT (St Louis) example (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6310458,-90.3464434,3a,75y,142.16h,81.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEm9V5TSSL3UjudEaWeJKcQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)with the 2 left lanes marked as lanes to get onto I-64 E, but not as left turn lanes until past the first signals set.
Here's an Ohio example (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1633638,-84.5096722,3a,51.6y,93.25h,91.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s22MybiZYBkUtMuj67dd-gA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), similar to your Kansas example.
This is a good practice what is shown here. The only problem is that it is not consistent. Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.
However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Uh oh.
------
Here's an example from L.A. Santa Monica Blvd at 405.
The left turn pocket is differentiated from other lanes with a thick white line. Yet demarked with a straight arrow:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0475089,-118.4449574,3a,75y,235.63h,63.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sghdvaQXmcpnahEreh0Uidg!2e0!5s20201201T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
The painted left turn arrows only begin once you pass the first signal.
L.A. traffic at its finest. All three left lanes enter the 405 northbound ramp:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0471641,-118.4462091,3a,75y,344.68h,80.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSLWyHHhxSLgDc8mvQliP-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2021, 12:20:28 AM
This is a good practice what is shown here. The only problem is that it is not consistent. Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.
However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Uh oh.
I used the NB Brentwood to WB I-64 movement more than the SB to EB I linked earlier, and somehow I missed that :banghead:. Well, that's a contradictory signage example with the arrows and the no left turn sign.
Here's a funny one (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.5709338,-122.3409452,3a,63.8y,83.05h,94.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sixdyqJJFlZXAcXr3x-Qulw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) from what's probably my least favorite intersection in Seattle. The problem is, you could consider either sign to be correct and I'm honestly not sure which is better for this situation. In terms of telling drivers which lane to be in for their intended movement, the one on the right is probably better, but when it comes to telling them what turns are legal, the one on the left is technically correct.
Quote from: kphoger on March 13, 2021, 05:12:31 PM
Never assume that the police officer actually knows the law.
One year during a snow emergency I got a ticket for parking on the street. After the street had been plowed. I had come home and didn't want to try to drive over the hump of snow in the driveway, so I parked on the street until I could get it shoveled out. Some enterprising officer was going down the street ticketing every car. I even looked on the city's website where the snow emergency was declared and it said it ended after the street was plowed. The neighbor across the street said her son got a ticket too, and she called the police station. They said you could bring the ticket to them and ask for a lieutenant and it would be taken care of. The lieutenant was not amused.
Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2021, 12:20:28 AM
This is a good practice what is shown here. The only problem is that it is not consistent. Yes, the authorities in MO did right by not putting in the arrows too early.
However, if you travel on the same road in the opposite direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6290342,-90.346236,3a,75y,9.87h,72.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOzNuIT82pUb57EkU75Fkg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Uh oh.
That reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1637881,-95.4518712,3a,31.4y,260.03h,85.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGoR67G2Hia5tGh7pBBnnZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) near me.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 12, 2021, 01:19:05 PM
There is this non-interchange example in Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/tr2ZCpYW8ANYfBVy5) that is marked in advance with a left turn arrow, but it should be pretty clear that you turn left at the second signal.
Two examples I know of like those above exist in Maine.
1. Orono ME (https://goo.gl/maps/1waC3oDthdfAbamd9). At first I thought this was for the turn into Irving when I first drove through the area but that left turn lane is actually for drivers turning left onto Route 16.
2. Westbrook ME (https://goo.gl/maps/wW33u6Fzj6eXedwz7). At the signal before on the mast arm, there is a sign warning that the middle lane (left after the signal) will be a dedicated left turn lane at the next signal.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 15, 2021, 03:20:12 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 12, 2021, 01:19:05 PM
There is this non-interchange example in Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/tr2ZCpYW8ANYfBVy5) that is marked in advance with a left turn arrow, but it should be pretty clear that you turn left at the second signal.
Two examples I know of like those above exist in Maine.
1. Orono ME (https://goo.gl/maps/1waC3oDthdfAbamd9). At first I thought this was for the turn into Irving when I first drove through the area but that left turn lane is actually for drivers turning left onto Route 16.
2. Westbrook ME (https://goo.gl/maps/wW33u6Fzj6eXedwz7). At the signal before on the mast arm, there is a sign warning that the middle lane (left after the signal) will be a dedicated left turn lane at the next signal.
In the L.A. area, there is a far better way to indicate that a lane will force you to turn soon, but not right away.
THey use a yellow warnig sign that says "THRU TRAFFIC MERGE LEFT" (or RIGHT as the case may be). Basically, it's an indication that the right lane will be ending (or forcing an upcoming right turn) and that traffic that wants to go straight must merge to the left to continue. This is also reinforced with lane markings - thick broken white lines (nicknamed elephant tracks) indicate that a lane will be forced to turn.
Here is an example on La Brea Ave, just north of Fountain. The curb lane is open to traffic during the afternoon rush, but will force a right turn onto Sunset in about 1/4 mile.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0947099,-118.344051,3a,75y,28.3h,83.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sByC6FgRzU0XCXqhje_Oksg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Here is an example where the left lane will force an upcoming turn. La Tijera Blvd approaching Airport Blvd
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9679284,-118.3824668,3a,75y,217.2h,74.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se5RQkX50p6b47cPLZORp4w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The street blade and the shield don't agree on whether the road goes to a ranch or to a farm...
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.1680827,-98.0867126,3a,15y,298.01h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRS9zUPjBMyVoRwKzrAMtdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The shields are probably in error.
I came across this today. This is the Hamilton-bound QEW offramp to Erin Mills Parkway.
Hmm, lane position signs (is that what they're called?) say I can go straight...
(https://i.imgur.com/qyHiu7U.png)
The sign shows that going straight is North Sheridan Way
(https://i.imgur.com/jieuOpb.png)
Lane markings indicate I can go straight...
(https://i.imgur.com/72bw8iw.png)
So why the fuck is there "No straight" regulatory signs at the end of the ramp?????
(https://i.imgur.com/rxB5Ajs.png)
^ Also the traffic signals there use green bulbs. It would only use left and right arrows if the straight movement really isn't allowed.
:hmmm:
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 03, 2021, 04:48:04 PM
^ Also the traffic signals there use green bulbs. It would only use left and right arrows if the straight movement really isn't allowed.
Toronto area doesn't really do arrow-only lights even if there are no straight movements allowed
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane. There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane. There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.
You know what, that's indeed a possibility... However, they usually look like this in Ontario:
(https://i.imgur.com/1fqVMVO.png)
^^Does that mean you can make a right turn from the striped lane? :bigass:
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 04, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane. There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.
You know what, that's indeed a possibility... However, they usually look like this in Ontario:
(https://i.imgur.com/1fqVMVO.png)
Yep, it should be an only arrow on each post. Maybe a Caltrans engineer was on loan to OMOT.
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 25, 2021, 08:30:31 PM
The street blade and the shield don't agree on whether the road goes to a ranch or to a farm...
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.1680827,-98.0867126,3a,15y,298.01h,90.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRS9zUPjBMyVoRwKzrAMtdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The shields are probably in error.
Correct.
It's RM-12 (http://www.dot.state.tx.us/tpp/hwy/rm/rm0012.htm).
Noticed this on the way to classes today. So do I follow the bike signal or the pedestrian signal?
(https://i.imgur.com/H2eqHvc.jpg?1)
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 04, 2021, 11:36:07 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 03, 2021, 07:41:12 PM
If you look at the intersection, I think you'll see it's a poor attempt to indicate that you can't go straight from the right lane. There's the same sign opposite it next to the left turn lane.
You know what, that's indeed a possibility...
I know this is old, but my initial thought was that maybe the sign is telling you not to go straight to reach the hospital...? :D
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 30, 2021, 09:16:01 PM
Noticed this on the way to classes today. So do I follow the bike signal or the pedestrian signal?
[img]
I guess it means stop first, then use the pedestrian signal. :D
https://goo.gl/maps/zJWHjTv7HEuwhz7b6
Which way is NJ Route 3 east here?
https://goo.gl/maps/XRfq9i57FLKQujwZ8
Would the real Exit 1D please stand up?
Quote from: GaryA on November 09, 2021, 01:46:42 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/XRfq9i57FLKQujwZ8
Would the real Exit 1D please stand up?
I guessed that one before I clicked the link :-/
There's a 5 mile stretch of I-880 southbound that has GaryA's Exit 1D and Exit 389 (https://goo.gl/maps/pXQeVB8Rn3Ha8qd96) for First Street (should be 4A) and Exit 4D (https://goo.gl/maps/CBLKviFCH6W6L9Wu9) for Brokaw Road (should be 5)
Quote from: roadman65 on November 09, 2021, 01:33:47 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/zJWHjTv7HEuwhz7b6
Which way is NJ Route 3 east here?
The sign on the right should probably have "LOCAL EXITS" in yellow to distinguish between the two Route 3's. Both ramps go to Route 3, but the left ramp joins route 3 from the left, making it difficult to merge to an exit, if someone needs to exit within the next 2 miles.
Quote from: GaryA on November 09, 2021, 01:46:42 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/XRfq9i57FLKQujwZ8
Would the real Exit 1D please stand up?
Gawd, the layout of that Alameda sign is atrocious. Even within the constraints of Caltrans signing practices, they could have done better...
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 30, 2021, 09:16:01 PM
Noticed this on the way to classes today. So do I follow the bike signal or the pedestrian signal?
(https://i.imgur.com/H2eqHvc.jpg?1)
The 8-8-8 bike signals that they added this year are nice signals, but if one is actually riding a bike on the bike path, one waits forever at each intersection for the exclusive WALK phase unless one manages to hit them just right. Almost better to ride in the street and follow the regular signals.
At least they figured out eventually that having a vehicle (bike) follow the pedestrian signals was stupid. Now they can take the signs down....
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 10:46:10 PM
My wife just got a job in Oklahoma City, which she isn't very familiar with driving-wise (usually when we go up to the city I drive). Today, she went up there, which led to this exchange:
(Image clipped)
She's southbound on Meridian Avenue at I-40 (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4624725,-97.6012635,3a,17.9y,176.86h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8t38zEEErBk8OtTWDRNHVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Technically contradictory, although you can kind of grok OKC's/ODOT's intent when you've been through a few interchanges set up this way. But still, there is no signage indicating that the "left turn" here is for the eastbound I-40 service road (and thus the eastbound I-40 ramp) after the bridge.
As is my tendency when I run across a squirrelly ODOT practice, I went to check how KDOT handles the same sort of situation, and it's much clearer (southbound 78th Street at I-70 in Kansas City):
(Image clipped)
Can confirm. Walker Avenue southbound approaching I-240's westbound service road has a one way sign...but the left turn lane is marked on the NORTH side of I-240. Unless I-240's service roads are planned for two-way conversion (and I have seen zero to substantiate that being the case), following the lane marking would lead to a head on collision with westbound service road traffic.
Not technically a road sign, but on county property off a county route
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211229/55533ca49a0bc994490270850fd7e309.jpg)
Pixel 4a
Not contradictory at all–they'll watch you lose your items or watch people steal them...and not do anything about it. But they have it on tape, so they can relive the experience over and over!
More like the county's not responsible, but if the surveillance video can be used as evidence by the county against a private party then it will.
This directional sign tells you that the commuter train station is straight ahead! Except that... this road is also bus-only...
(https://i.imgur.com/0MvbaMq.png)
Quote from: andrepoiy on June 21, 2022, 10:30:53 PM
This directional sign tells you that the commuter train station is straight ahead! Except that... this road is also bus-only...
(https://i.imgur.com/0MvbaMq.png)
That's not necessarily contradictory. I would imagine the sign is meant for pedestrians and it is showing the walking path to the station, not the driving path. There seems to be another entrance to the west that allows entry to the parking garage.