(Apologies in advance for the wordiness)
On Friday (2015-12-18), while eating a late lunch at a local sports bar, discussing the previous night's NFL game (Texans @ Rams) with one of their regular servers/bartenders and how I thought that the teams' solid-color uniforms made the game look to me like a 'Catchup & Mustard Bowl', I learned that he was totally colorblind when he told me that the players nearly all looked the same to him. Only with the slight difference in the gray that he saw with their uniforms was he able to the teams apart. He has literally lived his entire life in a black and white, 'grayscale' World.
This guy is highly intelligent with a strong interest in the 'built' environment (much like me) and the conversation quickly turned to how he is able to cope with the daily trappings that most of the rest of us take for granted such as driving and more specifically, standard R/Y/G traffic signals. Some of the things that he told me about driving is that he frequently has to watch what the other traffic is doing to tell what the signals are saying, especially at night, and pretty much has to stop whenever he comes upon a flashing signal, not being able to tell if it is red or yellow.
I mentioned to him that the latest MUTCD update allows the use of retro-reflective yellow outlines around the black signal backplates (similar to the long-standing European practice) and that WisDOT had recently installed them on part of WI 125 (College Ave) here in the Appleton area. He told me that he seldom goes in that direction, but seemed very enthusiastic about checking them out. I then strongly suggested that if he likes them, that he get in contact with WisDOT to tell them so and why.
For me (someone with normal to slightly strong color vision), the outlines help to define the signals, especially in chaotic commercial areas. For him, ALL lights, the flashing lights on police cars, fire trucks, ambulances, tow trucks and the like, streetlights, vehicle headlights and tail lights, advertising signs and so forth are white, only varying in intensity, and my sense is that those new signal backplate outlines will be hugely valuable to him in telling which of those multitudes of lights ARE signals, especially at night, and with the lit lamps' relative positions within the outlines, what the signals are saying.
I've really liked these backplate outlines ever since they first started appearing in the USA 2-3 years ago but this solidified my already fairly strong opinion that they should become mandatory in the next MUTCD update.
Any thoughts?
Mike
As much as I like black back plates, yellow are easier to see I think, both for myself and for the colour blind. I'm surprised the US hasn't implemented them, considering almost anywhere here in Canada yellow back plates are found. https://goo.gl/maps/DBHVa1mT32A2
I'm guessing yellow back plates are already considered an 'OPTION' in the MUTCD? I don't think they should be mandatory though for all situations; perhaps only for areas without street lighting or on higher speed roads (highways and such). In cities though say, downtown, I don't think it's necessary.
Quote from: SignGeek101 on December 20, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
As much as I like black back plates, yellow are easier to see I think, both for myself and for the colour blind. I'm surprised the US hasn't implemented them, considering almost anywhere here in Canada yellow back plates are found. https://goo.gl/maps/DBHVa1mT32A2
I'm guessing yellow back plates are already considered an 'OPTION' in the MUTCD? I don't think they should be mandatory though for all situations; perhaps only for areas without street lighting or on higher speed roads (highways and such). In cities though say, downtown, I don't think it's necessary.
I believe up until 2003, the MUTCD "encouraged" their use (that is, "highway yellow" signal housings -- not sure about the backplates), but eventually did away with the recommendation citing poor compliance or something.
There are many areas in the US which use yellow signal housings, but not a lot of all-yellow backplates. I have seen yellow signal housings with yellow-on-black backplates, but not all-yellow backplates.
As for the OP, I would like to try out a white outline as well. Yellow is bright during the day, but at night, I believe white is the most visible of the colors (and the most reflective).
Quote from: SignGeek101 on December 20, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
As much as I like black back plates, yellow are easier to see I think, both for myself and for the colour blind. I'm surprised the US hasn't implemented them, considering almost anywhere here in Canada yellow back plates are found. https://goo.gl/maps/DBHVa1mT32A2
I'm guessing yellow back plates are already considered an 'OPTION' in the MUTCD? I don't think they should be mandatory though for all situations; perhaps only for areas without street lighting or on higher speed roads (highways and such). In cities though say, downtown, I don't think it's necessary.
From what I am aware of, solid yellow backplates (like what is used in Canada) are not allowed in the USA, only black. The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
I believe most of Europe uses white outlines. Not sure who in Europe uses yellow outlines.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 02:10:27 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
I believe most of Europe uses white outlines. Not sure who in Europe uses yellow outlines.
Right, I probably should have been more precise in my wording, but yes, it is a European-style outline done in yellow.
Mike
QuoteIn New York (state), flashing blue = volunteer firefighter personal vehicle (not a required pull aside and stop).
Even if this is true, it's still a good idea to pull over and let them by anyway.
It could be your house or your loved one they're responding to.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 20, 2015, 11:33:37 AM
" In New York (state), flashing blue = volunteer firefighter personal vehicle (not a required pull aside and stop). "
Even if this is true, it's still good to pull over and let them by anyway.
It could be your house or your loved one they're responding to.
True. Here, volunteer firefighters' personal vehicles use red and you are required to let them by. Many firefighters will also mount low-intensity sirens on their vehicles.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 02:10:27 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
I believe most of Europe uses white outlines. Not sure who in Europe uses yellow outlines.
Right, I probably should have been more precise in my wording, but yes, it is a European-style outline done in yellow.
No biggie, I can see exactly what you were trying to say. Just didn't catch it the first time.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
From what I am aware of, solid yellow backplates (like what is used in Canada) are not allowed in the USA, only black. The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
Mike
If the width of the backplate is 3" or less, a solid yellow retroreflective backplate can be used. Almost all of the retroreflective backplates in Illinois are solid: Example in Springfield. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Springfield,+IL/@39.7641657,-89.6804062,3a,75y,93.74h,119.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D303.64105%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8875391d24dbd177:0xe72c82eecca86d22!6m1!1e1?hl=en) I
think the new signals on Randall Road in Kane County are actually the first ones in Illinois to use the outline instead of the full width version.
I've also seen some of the full width variety in Kentucky, including some with louvers in the retroreflective area and a few non-MUTCD compliant ones around doghouse signals where the width is much greater than 3".
I absolutely favor retroreflective outlines on signal assemblies. Otherwise, people might blow right through what should be treated as a four way stop, if they don't realize the dark signal is even there, at night during a power outage.
Several municipalities in Ontario place use a retroreflective yellow backplate on their traffic signals. Of the top of my head, I think it's common in both Waterloo Region, as well as Hamilton, ON
It's obviously hard to see during the day, but the lighter colour on the two-tone backplate is a retroreflective strip.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4441341,-80.4672119,3a,42.6y,63.45h,94.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq6A51Ayz2GHeq98xqKTwtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Kitchener,+ON/@43.2280061,-79.8390986,3a,23y,36.9h,90.68t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sW_D7_3C7Q59qpKrRIF8ObQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DW_D7_3C7Q59qpKrRIF8ObQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D32.865963%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x882bf48c03ee5105:0x9525f8e6df5f544b!6m1!1e1
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 20, 2015, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
From what I am aware of, solid yellow backplates (like what is used in Canada) are not allowed in the USA, only black. The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
Mike
If the width of the backplate is 3" or less, a solid yellow retroreflective backplate can be used. Almost all of the retroreflective backplates in Illinois are solid: Example in Springfield. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Springfield,+IL/@39.7641657,-89.6804062,3a,75y,93.74h,119.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D303.64105%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8875391d24dbd177:0xe72c82eecca86d22!6m1!1e1?hl=en) I think the new signals on Randall Road in Kane County are actually the first ones in Illinois to use the outline instead of the full width version.
I've also seen some of the full width variety in Kentucky, including some with louvers in the retroreflective area and a few non-MUTCD compliant ones around doghouse signals where the width is much greater than 3".
Is that actually solid yellow, or is the application of the retroreflective material just very similiar in width to the backplate?
Looking at the backside of it, its black, and the history of streetview it appears the entire backplate was similiarly sized and black. I think those signals look funny with the backside having black backplate with yellow signals, and the front having a retroreflective yellow border and black signals.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 11:24:41 AM
I've also posited including a section in the MUTCD to standardize the colors of flashing lights on various types of vehicles (police cars, fire trucks, ambulances, snow plows and other maintenance equipment, etc).
This is not within the jurisdiction of the MUTCD, as flashing lights on various types of commercial vehicles is not considered a traffic control device.
Apparently, such issues are not regulated by FHWA either. I think a more appropriate agency might be the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 20, 2015, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
From what I am aware of, solid yellow backplates (like what is used in Canada) are not allowed in the USA, only black. The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
If the width of the backplate is 3" or less, a solid yellow retroreflective backplate can be used. Almost all of the retroreflective backplates in Illinois are solid: Example in Springfield. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Springfield,+IL/@39.7641657,-89.6804062,3a,75y,93.74h,119.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D303.64105%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8875391d24dbd177:0xe72c82eecca86d22!6m1!1e1?hl=en) I think the new signals on Randall Road in Kane County are actually the first ones in Illinois to use the outline instead of the full width version.
I've also seen some of the full width variety in Kentucky, including some with louvers in the retroreflective area and a few non-MUTCD compliant ones around doghouse signals where the width is much greater than 3".
Only black backplates are allowed in the U.S.
The option for yellow reflective outlines on the backplates was introduced in the 2009 MUTCD as an option. It allows a yellow strip of a 1-3 inch width around the exterior of the backplate. There is no indication of a maximum width for the backplate, nor does it allow an all-yellow backplate.
From: 2009 MUTCD, Section 4D.12 Visibility, Aiming, and Shielding of Signal Faces (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/part4d.htm)
Quote
Standard:
20 The inside of signal visors (hoods), the entire surface of louvers and fins, and the front surface of backplates shall have a dull black finish to minimize light reflection and to increase contrast between the signal indication and its background.
Option:
21 A yellow retroreflective strip with a minimum width of 1 inch and a maximum width of 3 inches may be placed along the perimeter of the face of a signal backplate to project a rectangular appearance at night.
I've seen them here in Illinois, and I'm of the opinion they are a waste. If you can't see the far brighter lights, you've got a problem.
MoDOT does it on occasion, but not always
I have one in my latest flickr page at one intersection in Vandalia, IL. Yes, they are popping up everywhere! Probably the only place you will never find them will be in New York City. I cannot imagine NYCDOT giving up the aesthetics that the current double guy arms give, as back plates would ruin the whole thing. Especially with the two way signals or the three and four ways. Yes, backplates have been used on them, as we have some in Florida, but they do look tacky to say the least.
When I encountered those by Appleton, they really stood out to me unlike the all-blacks.
I didn't think California used them, until I spotted an example just recently...somewhere. I'm really pissed that I can't remember where.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 20, 2015, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 20, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
From what I am aware of, solid yellow backplates (like what is used in Canada) are not allowed in the USA, only black. The European style yellow outline is an allowed option that is new in the latest MUTCD update.
Mike
If the width of the backplate is 3" or less, a solid yellow retroreflective backplate can be used. Almost all of the retroreflective backplates in Illinois are solid: Example in Springfield. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Springfield,+IL/@39.7641657,-89.6804062,3a,75y,93.74h,119.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DEaD6xr3YM8MBWNoJ4SjDkQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D303.64105%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8875391d24dbd177:0xe72c82eecca86d22!6m1!1e1?hl=en) I think the new signals on Randall Road in Kane County are actually the first ones in Illinois to use the outline instead of the full width version.
I've also seen some of the full width variety in Kentucky, including some with louvers in the retroreflective area and a few non-MUTCD compliant ones around doghouse signals where the width is much greater than 3".
I first saw them (these yellow outlines) 'in the wild' on US 41 (Skokie Rd) throughout most of Lake County, IL about 3-4 years ago
Mike
Sorry to revive this old topic, but I felt a new topic wasn't necessary.
Is there any particular reason that a yellow border was chosen over a white border?
I'm certain that yellow isn't as reflective. Not to mention, if the color is to have meaning, signal heads are more of a regulatory device, and should have white borders instead (not that I suspect warning vs regulatory was part of the original decision to use yellow, mind you).
Bristol, PA seems to be the only municipality in the US to use these white borders: https://goo.gl/N2mWov
NYSDOT is using those with all new signals they are installing.
(now responding to the OP because I didnt notice this thread before...) #delayedresponse
Quote from: mgk920 on December 19, 2015, 11:45:46 PM
I mentioned to him that the latest MUTCD update allows the use of retro-reflective yellow outlines around the black signal backplates (similar to the long-standing European practice) and that WisDOT had recently installed them on part of WI 125 (College Ave) here in the Appleton area. He told me that he seldom goes in that direction, but seemed very enthusiastic about checking them out. I then strongly suggested that if he likes them, that he get in contact with WisDOT to tell them so and why.
That's funny that you started noticing them along
Wisconsin 125, because the first time I saw them was at a signal with
Illinois 125. https://goo.gl/maps/hvWULK4E5d52 This was back in 2006 or 2007. Now they can be seen in various places near Springfield IL.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2016, 07:45:57 PM
Is there any particular reason that a yellow border was chosen over a white border?
They probably figured that yellow was more easily visible against the sky, which can sometimes contain white clouds. Yellow prismatic sheeting/labeling material is probably just as common and easy to find as white, so they probably chose yellow. All of this is speculative on my part, of course.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2016, 07:45:57 PM
Sorry to revive this old topic, but I felt a new topic wasn't necessary.
Is there any particular reason that a yellow border was chosen over a white border?
I'm certain that yellow isn't as reflective. Not to mention, if the color is to have meaning, signal heads are more of a regulatory device, and should have white borders instead (not that I suspect warning vs regulatory was part of the original decision to use yellow, mind you).
Bristol, PA seems to be the only municipality in the US to use these white borders: https://goo.gl/N2mWov
I'm guessing it is because the original Canadian research on reflective backplate borders only used yellow?
Florida has gone universally to black housings with retroreflective yellow backplates, a change from the previous black housing with black backplates on east and west facing lights. I like them. They make the signals stand out more.
Quote from: realjd on May 11, 2016, 10:27:05 PM
Florida has gone universally to black housings with retroreflective yellow backplates, a change from the previous black housing with black backplates on east and west facing lights. I like them. They make the signals stand out more.
Was that what the old system was? It seemed like it was entirely random before, with one intersection being the east/west road, the next being the north/south road, some roadways it was always the more major roadways, then many of course just had none at all.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2016, 07:45:57 PM
Bristol, PA seems to be the only municipality in the US to use these white borders: https://goo.gl/N2mWov
Not too far from there in New Hope, PA, there are more of those signals with the reflective white tape on their backplates.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6054/6270796327_2c88d00297_z.jpg)
I definitely like these better than the yellow ones.
Quote from: Brandon on December 20, 2015, 07:34:34 PM
I've seen them here in Illinois, and I'm of the opinion they are a waste. If you can't see the far brighter lights, you've got a problem.
US-20 just west of Rockford uses the yellow backdrop for the signals at Winnebago and Pectatonica. However I have seen them pop up in the burbs (one is at Grand Ave off of I-294). Rural uses would make more sense to make sure people notice them in darker/foggier areas, but urban uses seem a little much considering all the light.
The only yellow backgrounds here in Alabama that I'm aware of are in Hoover, AL.
I like the backplates we have here, a thin white stripe for a nice clean look :nod:
(https://project.mainroads.wa.gov.au/tcmp/PublishingImages/380x200%20TrafficLight.JPG)
They also have the outline on the back, which helps you see the lights that are facing away from you, if for some reason you wanted to.
DelDOT has one thin yellow backplate on a recent installation on Naamans Road. Oddly, another signal replacement on nearby US 202 is just plain black.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 11, 2016, 08:34:54 PM
They probably figured that yellow was more easily visible against the sky, which can sometimes contain white clouds. Yellow prismatic sheeting/labeling material is probably just as common and easy to find as white, so they probably chose yellow. All of this is speculative on my part, of course.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 11, 2016, 08:54:05 PM
I'm guessing it is because the original Canadian research on reflective backplate borders only used yellow?
Both of these points make sense to me. My only real question now is whether or not the color was part of the reduction in crashes, or just the reflective nature of the border. The South Carolina report seems to indicate that the borders are most helpful at night. And in my opinion, I think white might be superior for that time of day (after all, as I've said about a million times thus far: white is more reflective than yellow).
In case it isn't obvious, I would like to see white studied at some point.
Quote from: Ian on May 11, 2016, 11:04:37 PM
I definitely like these better than the yellow ones.
As do I. I think they look cleaner.
I think the point of the reflective background is to make them visible at night if the electricity is out.. So drivers would know and intersection has a traffic light. They are supposed to be treated like 4 way stop.. But very few do
Quote from: ET21 on May 12, 2016, 12:32:53 AM
Rural uses would make more sense to make sure people notice them in darker/foggier areas, but urban uses seem a little much considering all the light.
There is not always much light after a major storm knocks out the power - though this is slightly less of an issue nowadays given how many signals now have battery backups.
Although yellow signals have been commonplace in parts of Canada for several decades, it turns out that ICBC (the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia) and the BCMOT were responsible for the first implementation of a reflective yellow border, first installed in Saanich, BC in 1998. The backplates were already yellow (BC adopted yellow backplates in the 1980s, following the lead of, I think, Ontario), but they were pitch black at night. They installed the reflective edging around the existing backplate, which helped improve the visibility at night. This practice of yellow backplates + reflective edging continues today (both in BC and in other provinces).
The original study was prompted by the sheer number of collisions occurring in BC at signalized junctions. The opening hypothesis was pretty straightforward: color conspicuity of roadway signage must be maintained under all lighting conditions. Signal backplates weren't part of this requirement (they aren't technically signs), so ICBC and the MOT studied applying the same retroreflective requirements to backplates.
Also, answering my own question from earlier, the yellow border was adopted because the Canadian MUTCD recommends yellow backplates to differentiate the signals from the background. If the Canadian MUTCD recommended another color for the backplates (such as black), I suspect that white may have been the original color studied.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZ3iRplV.jpg&hash=45c74a2e240ca5451bc40f46a82c889542e4c778)
photo mine
Here's the original study on reflective borders, for any who are interested: http://goo.gl/OtpDik